A please to server owners in regards to balance
Xarius
Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Members, Reinforced - Supporter
Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Members, Reinforced - Supporter
Hello
As many of you surely know, aliens currently dominate in NS 2. In the spirit of the following stattement from UWE. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Some of our most successful balance changes and bug fixes have come from the community. Our first stop when adding or changing a feature is to read feedback on our forums. We don’t believe we are the best game creators ever, we believe that if you give people the tools to create, they can create brilliance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think you the server owners have the power to easily address some of the issues currently present. And while I realize not all of you may be keen on 'modding' your servers, please do hear me out.
A large group of players is in this mod is of the opinion that alien lifeforms come out too quickly, and often in too large numbers. In addition, we believe that augmentation in its current form is broken, it's too cheap and even too fast. (6 min with continuous misting, which is guaranteed with a good comm) It is too cheap because at 25 t.res there is no marine equivalent in terms of tech leap, it is too fast because at 6 min there is no marine equivalent for early->midgame advancement
We are of the opinion that addressing just these 2 factors will already have a big impact on balance, and we hope that you, the server owners, would help us out in our quest to make UWE realize that too.
Here is a chart of the effects of the P.res gains and starting p.res
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/XIDw6l.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
What we would ask:
- P.res gain rate to 0.025, starting p.res to 20 or 15.
- Augmentation cost to 50, augmentation research time x5
What this will do:
- Prolong the early game stage that players enjoy so much
- Give marines a much better chance to compete with aliens
- Bigger impact on dying as a big lifeform or with expensive weapons
- Less likely to see the majority of a team go fade or onos at the same time, due to lifeforms being 'delayed' and everyone saving up for higher lifeforms becoming quite risky.
Please do consider, I suppose you would probably have to have a custom server message appear to notify the players of these 'modded' values but I can not imagine anyone would object to playing on servers that offer these moddesd values.
Thank you
As many of you surely know, aliens currently dominate in NS 2. In the spirit of the following stattement from UWE. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Some of our most successful balance changes and bug fixes have come from the community. Our first stop when adding or changing a feature is to read feedback on our forums. We don’t believe we are the best game creators ever, we believe that if you give people the tools to create, they can create brilliance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think you the server owners have the power to easily address some of the issues currently present. And while I realize not all of you may be keen on 'modding' your servers, please do hear me out.
A large group of players is in this mod is of the opinion that alien lifeforms come out too quickly, and often in too large numbers. In addition, we believe that augmentation in its current form is broken, it's too cheap and even too fast. (6 min with continuous misting, which is guaranteed with a good comm) It is too cheap because at 25 t.res there is no marine equivalent in terms of tech leap, it is too fast because at 6 min there is no marine equivalent for early->midgame advancement
We are of the opinion that addressing just these 2 factors will already have a big impact on balance, and we hope that you, the server owners, would help us out in our quest to make UWE realize that too.
Here is a chart of the effects of the P.res gains and starting p.res
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/XIDw6l.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
What we would ask:
- P.res gain rate to 0.025, starting p.res to 20 or 15.
- Augmentation cost to 50, augmentation research time x5
What this will do:
- Prolong the early game stage that players enjoy so much
- Give marines a much better chance to compete with aliens
- Bigger impact on dying as a big lifeform or with expensive weapons
- Less likely to see the majority of a team go fade or onos at the same time, due to lifeforms being 'delayed' and everyone saving up for higher lifeforms becoming quite risky.
Please do consider, I suppose you would probably have to have a custom server message appear to notify the players of these 'modded' values but I can not imagine anyone would object to playing on servers that offer these moddesd values.
Thank you
Comments
1) Modding balance numbers is a slippery slope for admins. Why stop with the pres numbers? You can tweak the fade so it's slightly more balanced. Or the hydras so they don't hurt so much. And the gorge pres cost. And the onos range. I, personally, prefer straight up numbers because admin-tweaked values can be hidden, biased, and frustrating.
2) The pres is already 0.25 per tick. I definitely think a starting pres of 15 (down from 25) and a harvester pres tick of 0.25 would be helpful, but I don't think it would fix the lifeform problems we see. It simply pushes the problem back a minute or two.
I'd like to see UWE patch in a starting pres of 0.15 and perhaps a tres of 40 and see how that plays.
<!--quoteo(post=1930648:date=Apr 27 2012, 01:39 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Apr 27 2012, 01:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930648"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1) Modding balance numbers is a slippery slope for admins. Why stop with the pres numbers? You can tweak the fade so it's slightly more balanced. Or the hydras so they don't hurt so much. And the gorge pres cost. And the onos range. I, personally, prefer straight up numbers because admin-tweaked values can be hidden, biased, and frustrating.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe the idea behind it is to separate the influence of the starting pres and augmentation cost only, but I agree that changing even two factors at once seems like too much.
<!--quoteo(post=1930648:date=Apr 27 2012, 01:39 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Apr 27 2012, 01:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930648"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2) The pres is already 0.25 per tick. I definitely think a starting pres of 15 (down from 25) and a harvester pres tick of 0.25 would be helpful, but I don't think it would fix the lifeform problems we see. It simply pushes the problem back a minute or two.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now it's 0.25 pres, per node, every 8 seconds. I also don't know where the 0.03125 value came from. Maybe somebody could explain it please.
Ever thought about dividing 0.25 pres by 8 seconds? :)
As you can probably guess, it never occurred to me :). Thank you very much for exposing me as a math fraud that I am.
Read here as to why: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=117980" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=117980</a>
Read here as to why: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=117980" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=117980</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>+1</b>
<img src="http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-frogout.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Poor aliens with their 70% winrate.
And you call yourself a competitive player?
Who dropped that spaghetti on the floor?
A couple of caveats with that chart:
1. The first to times are based on having those many RTs from the beginning of the game. Since you only start with 1 RT, the values for the 2-6 RT scenarios are quicker than would actually happen in a game (you'd need to account for the time it would take to get the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc RT built).
2. Those scenarios don't take into account losing and having to rebuild RTs, so that will also delay lerk/fade/onos timing
However, its a useful way to compare the effect of different PRes flowrates and starting PRes. If anyone wants to play around with other values, the Excel file is <a href="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5490563/Aliens%20PRes%20Values.xlsx" target="_blank">here</a>.
Lock Thread.
Changing the Pres income is a bad idea because the entire game is already balanced around that income rate. You'd spend so much time attempting to adjust everything to make it just right ratio wise.
<i>When instead </i>, <b>all you'd have to do is change the cost of the lifeform!</b> And wala, it accomplishes the <b>same thing</b> without any downsides!
Calling for server admins to change their numbers (Even though i did it to test starting pres for a while) is a bad idea as it skews the stats and people get very confused / angry without notification of what EXACTLY changed. (trust me.)
It has already been mentioned before that this chart does <b><u>not</u></b> account for the time to build-up to x number of RT's, and obviously does not account for any marine actions whatsoever. So the chart says an Onos at 2 RTs takes almost 17 minutes right now; that's not including the 2~ minutes to build the second RT at the start of the game where you're not getting those resources. 11 minutes at 3 RT for an Onos? Again not accounting for the time it takes to get the second RT nor the time it takes to get the third RT, nor the chance of the marine team taking down one of those RTs (which can easily happen at an RT like crevice).
That chart is nothing more than calculating how long it would take to get a lifeform if your team had x amount of RTs at the <u><b>start of the game</b></u>. It does not at all actually account for game mechanics and the timings on RT's. The very least someone could do is get average timings of a best case scenario and edit the chart to reflect as such instead of letting it get posted around the forums and poisoning the minds of people who may wander across it and think it reflects actual gameplay data.
Also the problem is <b><u>not</u></b> the timing of Aliens, it's the quantity. Alien lifeforms come out at the right times right now; the problem is they all come out in a blob due to no resource sink to stagger player resources on a team.
This has already been mentioned in here by scardybob, besides it being somewhat apparent with its lack of "Average timings for RTs" listed.
But i agree its needed. you should start recording :)
<!--quoteo(post=1930956:date=Apr 27 2012, 08:09 PM:name=Unknown_Soldier)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Unknown_Soldier @ Apr 27 2012, 08:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930956"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Alien lifeforms come out at the right times right now;<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I completely disagree. Where is the early game? You only fight skulks for within the first 2 min generally, as you can lerk around the 2 minute mark on average.(see pic below) And fades ~5 minutes? No thank you, sir. Marine armor 2 is difficult to get at that timing even if you prioritized it above everything else, which you wouldn't because skulk rushes would have taken you out more than likely unless your team is gold.
<a href="http://i.imgur.com/lj6fs.jpg" target="_blank">http://i.imgur.com/lj6fs.jpg</a>
This. This. So much this.
I'll quote what I wrote in another thread:
<!--quoteo(post=1930692:date=Apr 27 2012, 12:16 PM:name=Unknown_Soldier)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Unknown_Soldier @ Apr 27 2012, 12:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930692"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Indeed.
Was wracking my brain last night trying to think of any method of a good resource sink (<b>no</b>, having abilities cost resources is <b>NOT</b> a good idea) and I came to the same conclusion I came to when people were complaining about Alien's rate of expansion:
It's impossible with the Alien Commander in the game.
There is simply nothing you could ever provide that would become a necessary <b><u>team</b></u> resource sink early in the game that would result in staggered amounts of resources on your team (eg. one person might be saving for Fade, but other people have spent early res). Natural Selection 1 had the upgrade chambers, the RTs, and the second Hive that was a team effort of spending resources on getting those up. In Natural Selection 2 everything has been taken from the team and shoved onto the Alien Commander; a role which only one person can fulfill and that the team can not contribute to.
The result is what we have been seeing for the past while; what people have been mistaking as "fast Alien expansion" when they've been complaining about half the Alien team going Fade or Onos. The fact of the matter is that with the entire Alien resource sink being moved away from the team, there is absolutely no reason (and no ability) to spend resources on anything but lifeforms. Even if Gorge structures were made to cost resources again, people have no <b><u>reason</u></b> to actually go Gorge and spend resources on these structures.
I mean I love the concept behind the Alien Commander. It seems that the development team and a good chunk of the community are invested in the idea. The problem still stands though that one of the big balance points of the NS1 Aliens has been transferred from the team to a sole individual player.
I think you can best see this right now if you compare the resource sink to the Alien Commander role. In Natural Selection 1 this resource sink happened at the start of the game and generally lasted up until the completion of the second hive and the second set of upgrade chambers. At that point the Alien team had reached the pinnacle of their map control, all important buildings had been dropped, and anything lost or taken from that point on was part of a give and take battle with Marines. In Natural Selection 2 the Alien Commander is most active at the start of the game up until the completion of the second hive, augmentations, and upgrades. It tends to depend on whether or not the Marine team has secured a hive or has decided to turtle, but the game generally reaches a point after the early game where Alien Commanders lack anything to do. At this point you see a lot of them hop out of the hive to go help against the Marine team because they have nothing left to do.
So the point I'm trying to make here is that the Alien Commander is essentially the NS1 resource sink incarnate. The entire resource sink has been shoved onto the Alien Commander and the Alien Commander's only use is in fulfilling the builder role that was original part of the team dynamic.
After saying all that though, I have no magic idea to present to fix the problem. The problem is clear as is the source of the problem. The easiest and most forward solution is obviously to remove the Alien Commander and return the role to the Gorge and team, but I imagine the community and the development team is so invested in the idea that another solution is required. I'm sure myself and others who recognize the problem will continue to try and think of some solution that fits within the limits of the current game, but in the end it's up to the development team to fix said problem and I do have faith that they will be able to.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<u><b>TLDR:</b></u> Alien timing is right, the quantity is wrong due to lack of resource sink.
<!--quoteo(post=1930967:date=Apr 28 2012, 02:22 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Apr 28 2012, 02:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930967"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><a href="http://i.imgur.com/lj6fs.jpg" target="_blank">http://i.imgur.com/lj6fs.jpg</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This image only reinforces what I'm trying to say, in that the use of the NS1 resource system is clashing with NS2 ideas creating headaches in balance. Without any resource sink to stagger the team's resources you're left with everyone mass evolving at the same time.
So here's what NS2 looks like at 2 minutes:
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><u><b>Player 1:</b></u> 30 Res
<u><b>Player 2:</b></u> 30 Res
<u><b>Player 3:</b></u> 30 Res
<u><b>Player 4:</b></u> 30 Res
<u><b>Player 5:</b></u> 30 Res
<u><b>Player 6:</b></u> 30 Res
<u><b>Player 7:</b></u> 30 Res<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
And here's one example of what NS1 could have looked like at 2 minutes:
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><u><b>Player 1:</b></u> 30 Res <-- Saving for second hive.
<u><b>Player 2:</b></u> 10 Res <-- Dropped two upgrade chambers.
<u><b>Player 3:</b></u> 5 Res <-- Dropped an upgrade chamber and an RT.
<u><b>Player 4:</b></u> 15 Res <-- Dropped an RT.
<u><b>Player 5:</b></u> 15 Res <-- Dropped an RT.
<u><b>Player 6:</b></u> 30 Res <-- About to Lerk.
<u><b>Player 7:</b></u> 30 Res <-- Saving for Fade.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
You can clearly see the difference. And the beauty of it was not only are you not looking at mass Lerk at 2 minutes, but that that's only one potential outcome of what could have happened out of many that caused staggered resources across the team. Some people might say I'm being all nostalgic about NS1, but I say compare the two games at 2 minutes and tell me which looks more balanced.
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><u><b>Player 1:</b></u> 30 Res
<u><b>Player 2:</b></u> 30 Res
<u><b>Player 3:</b></u> 30 Res
<u><b>Player 4:</b></u> 30 Res
<u><b>Player 5:</b></u> 30 Res
<u><b>Player 6:</b></u> 30 Res
<u><b>Player 7:</b></u> 30 Res<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
And here's one example of what NS1 could have looked like at 2 minutes:
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><u><b>Player 1:</b></u> 30 Res <-- Saving for second hive.
<u><b>Player 2:</b></u> 10 Res <-- Dropped two upgrade chambers.
<u><b>Player 3:</b></u> 5 Res <-- Dropped an upgrade chamber and an RT.
<u><b>Player 4:</b></u> 15 Res <-- Dropped an RT.
<u><b>Player 5:</b></u> 15 Res <-- Dropped an RT.
<u><b>Player 6:</b></u> 30 Res <-- About to Lerk.
<u><b>Player 7:</b></u> 30 Res <-- Saving for Fade.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty much on the money but it would look more like this:
NS2
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><u><b>Player 1:</b></u> 30 Res - fading
<u><b>Player 2:</b></u> 30 Res - fading
<u><b>Player 3:</b></u> 30 Res - fading
<u><b>Player 4:</b></u> 30 Res - lerking
<u><b>Player 5:</b></u> 30 Res - lerking
<u><b>Player 6:</b></u> 30 Res - khamm lerk/onos<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
vs.
NS1
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><u><b>Player 1:</b></u> 30 Res - hiving
<u><b>Player 2:</b></u> 30 Res - fading
<u><b>Player 3:</b></u> 30 Res - lerking
<u><b>Player 4:</b></u> 5 Res - rt dropped, staying gorge
<u><b>Player 5:</b></u> 5 Res - rt dropped, reskulking
<u><b>Player 6:</b></u> 0 Res - two chambers dropped, still gorge<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
RFK makes the economy even more interesting. Needless to say, this was just one of many strategies that developed differently depending on gorge number and build order. As it is, NS2 just comes down to what composition of lifeforms you want out but never when you want them and how risky you're willing to play in the mean time.
NS2
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><u><b>Player 1:</b></u> 30 Res - fading
<u><b>Player 2:</b></u> 30 Res - fading
<u><b>Player 3:</b></u> 30 Res - fading
<u><b>Player 4:</b></u> 30 Res - lerking
<u><b>Player 5:</b></u> 30 Res - lerking
<u><b>Player 6:</b></u> 30 Res - khamm lerk/onos<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
vs.
NS1
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><u><b>Player 1:</b></u> 30 Res - hiving
<u><b>Player 2:</b></u> 30 Res - fading
<u><b>Player 3:</b></u> 30 Res - lerking
<u><b>Player 4:</b></u> 5 Res - rt dropped, staying gorge
<u><b>Player 5:</b></u> 5 Res - rt dropped, reskulking
<u><b>Player 6:</b></u> 0 Res - two chambers dropped, still gorge<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
RFK makes the economy even more interesting. Needless to say, this was just one of many strategies that developed differently depending on gorge number and build order. As it is, NS2 just comes down to what composition of lifeforms you want out but never when you want them and how risky you're willing to play in the mean time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea I did that example and didn't understand why it felt off. Then I later realized I went with 7 players instead of 6. But yea.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Alien lifeforms come out at the right times right now;<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I strongly disagree with this analysis, though I do agree with your other argument; i.e that they come out in too large numbers. I'm of the opinion both are an issue, 6 - 8 min onos are just roflstomp, as are 3 - 4 players going onos in most stages of the game. (In addition, it doesn't help that augmentation takes these fast lerks/fades/onos to a whole new level rather quickly, i.e there's little time actually spent playing tier 1 ability lifeforms since only a couple of minutes after the first fade comes out will a team be able to have augmentation as well) So at the very least the issue lies with both quantity of higher lifeforms as well as the ease of quality (augmentation for all at 25 t.res 6 min into the game).
If you only address the amount of higher lifeforms, I can guarantee you that you will likely still see a single fade with augmentation tear apart an entire team 6 minutes into the game. (Since at 6 minutes marines will not have any tech to properly deal with the fade yet, only staying grouped up with 5 - 6 marines would be an adequate counter, at the cost of losing map control elsewhere, or forcing the fade to need support as well)
What?
<!--quoteo(post=1931150:date=Apr 28 2012, 12:22 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Apr 28 2012, 12:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931150"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Since at 6 minutes marines will not have any tech to properly deal with the fade yet<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't Marines have shotguns by then?
You can easily have an onos that early in the game, especially on maps like mineshaft...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't Marines have shotguns by then?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Shotguns without armor or weapon upgrades won't do much vs an augmented fade, unless there's 3+ marines present. And requiring 3+ players for every fade is hardly a 'counter'. (Since that fade + 2 skulks will absolutely rip apart those 3 marines, or those skulks will go bite RTS while half the marine team is out sticking together to counter one fade)
You could <b><u>start</u></b> with 4 RTs and not see an Onos until 8 minutes. You're not going to see an 8 minute Onos in any game unless you're playing with only a few people.
<!--quoteo(post=1931164:date=Apr 28 2012, 12:43 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Apr 28 2012, 12:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931164"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Shotguns without armor or weapon upgrades won't do much vs an augmented fade, unless there's 3+ marines present. And requiring 3+ players for every fade is hardly a 'counter'. (Since that fade + 2 skulks will absolutely rip apart those 3 marines, or those skulks will go bite RTS while half the marine team is out sticking together to counter one fade)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A Fade costs 2-3 times more than a single Marine with a Shotgun (I've forgotten how much a SG cost). Why shouldn't it take at least 2-3 Marines to kill one?
I've seen plenty of instances where two Marines have landed their first shots on a Fade, and the Fade has to bug out or die.
<i>I completely agree that Mass tech is an issue.</i> But we were discussing timings of life forms in the game, not this issue, where's the rebuttal to what i said? :( The two subjects can highlight one another but they are separate.
You shouldn't get to lerk or fade with those timings i mentioned as there's no counter to them for marines at that time! This alone makes the game too fast, and coupled with no counters, these are the only arguments needed.
Regarding Mass tech issue, there are plenty of ways to solve it, here's just one:
<!--quoteo(post=1930932:date=Apr 27 2012, 07:01 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Apr 27 2012, 07:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930932"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I forget where i heard the idea, might have been another PTer.. but it was basically "Scale Upgrade Costs"
so skulk upgrades cost 1 or 2 pres. so going cara and regen might cost 4 pres. this still makes it cheap enough for him to survive mid game /late game. (esp if we scale cara to # of hives etc)
Fade going cara might cost 10 or 15 pres!
Onos 20!
Obviously the numbers need to be adjusted/decided on through heavy Playtesting/Spreadsheeting.
BUT You get the point. You have to REALLY want that upgrade, and this creates that desired tradeoff in the choice. Something that is not occurring right now as its a no brainer to upgrade -<b> it might as well be automatic!!</b>
Reminds me of a quote i love from Flayra: "All equipment, <u><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->upgrades<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></u>, etc. have downsides to go with their new capabilities. If they didn’t, <u>it would cease to be an interesting decision</u> when choosing them."
And finally, i have a lot of ideas about how to EARN pres. Which is far more important IMO, as rewarding the player not only encourages the desired playstyle (teamwork etc) but also keeps 'em coming back for more!
"Would you like to know more?" PM me. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also, @unkown_soldier: Your numbers are off. With the current res model and starting pres, with 4 RTs from the start you can Onos in 6:40.
The problem right now is there's not one Fade, there's 3-5 (on a six-man team) depending on if someone went Gorge and/or if someone went Lerk.
And once again, timing is a separate discussion from Mass tech. They merely highlight one another.