I've only had the game a couple of months and I can tell this subject is essentially beating a dead horse, but I just wanted to post my support for the OP and his message, i've said it before that I don't like how player choice has been restricted compared to NS1, and I don't like power nodes and I think infestation could be changed for the better (many suggestions allover the forums for it).
I think the devs were looking at having the hive etc able to grow in any room and dynamically find a part to attach onto? I think the main issue is the lack of flexibility due to techpoints (comm chair / hive locations). It's created very mechanical and structual gameplay.
I agree that power points do need to be looked at, it's a chore to build and destroy them on both sides.
Visually they have obvious art benefits and my favourite moments so far have been the moment power goes down, or wandering into a beautifully crafted alien base.
Power nodes are very tough in recent builds, but they have been vital in ending Marine turtling which made NS1 rounds drag on. Power nodes help games end suddenly which i like.
Hive site has stoped me ninja gating several times - although cysts will be less spammable next patch. Perhaps they could introduce a building which added hive site to the infestation it was on, you could make it an evolution to really slow it down and marines could take out that building to gain a strategic advantage. The only problem is that it would essentially be obs for aliens.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1926968:date=Apr 19 2012, 03:10 AM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ Apr 19 2012, 03:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926968"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This thread will no doubt grow as they always do, fed by a vocal minority. It is tired, it is old, this path has been trodden far too many times. Those that wish to tread here again are missing out on contributing to the grow of an exciting new game.
Aside, .ADHd, I can't wait to cast you competitively, I know it will be great. You're clearly very passionate about the game and it's wonderful to see. This kind of thread, effectively advocating creation of NS:Spark by the development team facilitating said mod's creation, does not become you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I feel compelled to point out that dismissing any and all criticism (which are usually attempts at constructive feedback, even if you may not see them as such) as being "fed by a vocal minority" and "effectively advocating creation of NS:Spark" is pretty much the world champion of things that are tired, old and paths that have been trodden far too many times on this forum.
The purpose of power nodes (as I see it) are: a) to power lights b) to give the marines a weak spot to disable buildings
To keep both of these features in, while taking out the boring parts is easy.
When the Commander places a building, the marines will be directed to build the structure and power the node as usual. The power node acts as a 'switch' and so once the power node is up, Khaara cannot attack the power node directly (except the lerk). The only way in which to bring the power down is to remove the last building being powered by that node, at which point, power to the room would drop out.
The lerk is the only Khaara who can directly attack the power node, through the bile bomb. The bombs effectively knock out the power temporarily (disabling phase gates, etc.), allowing for a quick swarm of skulks to rush in and take out the structures.
Tech points (CC locations), wouldn't have power nodes, they would instead have 'power generators'. All Khaara will be able to attack these generators directly, and would be repaired just like the power nodes are now. This allows the current alien end game (knock out power in base) to be the same. This generator will power the entire map (if only 1 generator is running) and will need to be restarted to gain power anywhere at all (but lets face it that is endgame right there anyway).
I think this will keep everything more or less the same as it is now, while fundamentally eradicating the current pointlessness of power nodes.
So dalleck: another arbitrary and confusing rule (only lerks can attack power-nodes) and another new feature (power generators for tech-points)! See how hard it is to have a clean solution? :P
I tried reorganising my thoughts by beginning with what I could only imagine were the original design goals, rather than working backwards from its current flaws, and came to a simpler conclusion:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->More seriously, I think we need to ask ourselves why the powergrid system was introduced in the first place. From here we can see how successful it is at doing what it's intended to do and whether there are any neat alternatives. I think it's pretty clear that it's failed in making NS stategically interesting (myself and many others have explained why in detail elsewhere) but I still see a role for it turning on the lights and making a room feel alien/marine/contested. If anybody can enlighten me as to further design goals, please do.
The feeling of a room being 'owned' is fine. It's not overly important in the grand scheme of things but still a noble enough goal - I largely bracket it under 'immersion'. We already have something that does this extremely well, though. Infestation is the perfect tool for making things feel alien and, let's face it, everything else usually feels pretty human/marine without it anyway. Infestation is perfect because it ominously 'spreads', it's a great aesthetic cue, it's a consequence of real choices made by aliens, it's one of the real signs that an alien commander even exists, it is genuinely useful for aliens and, lastly, it is attached to advantages and disadvantages that alter gameplay. We're trying to get power to do something that is already done very well by something else.
Turning on the lights does create a level of gameplay that doesn't always exist in other games. While I personally don't like being in the dark 30% of the time and I know for a fact that light maps are statistically favoured in other games, I can work with the concept in principle. What I would argue though is that, ignoring my personal gripe against darkness, there other ways of achieving this mechanic. Mappers are the first port of call in this regard and can choose to make rooms with whatever lighting they wish. What this lacks is the dynamism of the current system though where a room can change from light to dark. To be quite honest, I think commanders should just be able to drop massive lamps that light a room. It's a really simple idea without any glaring difficulties. Everyone gets their light/dark fix.
So of the three goals (strategy, immersion, light/dark gameplay); one has failed, the other is already done and the last is achievable through an incredibly simple feature which is easy to implement and balance. I'm therefore suggesting something which I guess is quite radical. I want the whole powergrid system to be replaced by... portable lights.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yuuki then improved upon the idea, respecting the anti-turtle benefits of power and staying sensitive to UWE's workload:
1) The comm can drop lights. There is already some props of large spot lights so it would not require a lot of work. It will replace a static light system by something much more dynamic, the comm has to think where to build the lights: more freedom, people like freedom. The lights can be attacked and destroyed, so you would get this cinematic effect of lights going down. It would also allow mappers to have some dark area in the map since it can be countered. Dynamic lighting in the engine, dynamic lights in the game; make sense.
2) Rename the power pack to "sentry power system", it will power the turrets only. Destroying it disable the sentries. It allows to have a weak point in turret spammed area. It also allow the comm to choose a good spot for the "sentry power system" instead of having a fixed position on the map.
3) Use building loss of power animation to show when a building get recycled.
4) Remove power nodes since they are no longer needed.
It's a nice solution because it requires (relatively) little work and recycle most of what has already been done: no good work gets wasted. By splitting the different function of power nodes (lights, turret factory, base destroyer, ..) it also facilitate balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
By adopting this, I think we will have achieved the following:
- Kept light/dark gameplay. - Kept anti-turtle elements by chaining power only to turrets - Replaced visual drama of losing power-node to the portable lights instead - 'Owning' rooms is now done through portable lights, infestation and structure presence - Returned numerous interesting strategic options to marines by unrestricting structure placements - Removed tedium of biting/building/repairing nodes - Removed the need for the clunky powerpack - Removed confusing boundaries for power and their area-of-effect - Removed massive weakness to marine start - Restored the importance of locations by virtue of proximity, geometry and usefulness - Facilitated easier and more specific balance tweaking by splitting functions - Respected the work already put into designing power-nodes, animations etc. - Respected, hopefully, the original design goals where possible - Kept things simple - Kept things interesting
I didn't think dalleck's idea was arbitrary or confusing. It actually made a lot of sense when I thought about it, and I like both the the idea of toughening forward base nodes against skulks/Oni and that of using acid to disrupt Marine power.
It's confusing in that suddenly a structure is unaffected by bite/gore/spit/anything - there's no real strong justification for why that should be the case. It's not that I don't think it makes sense (almost every suggestion makes sense on some level) but confining attacks to the lerk only <b>is</b> confusing unless you introduce yet another damage/armour-type which is already confusing. Add to that, more features and rules and we're back to what I like to call a mess.
The ideas he and others propose are not dumb, nor are they necessarily overly damaging to the game. They are, however, work-arounds, quick-fixes, short-term solutions, arbitrary rules and/or new features to cover up old features! We should be seeking to simplify rather than complicate (note: 'complicated' doesn't mean deep or interesting, it just means complicated) the power-grid system and if that isn't possible, and I suspect that it isn't, then stripping it down might be the next best solution.
<!--QuoteBegin-Tweadle+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So dalleck: another arbitrary and confusing rule (only lerks can attack power-nodes) and another new feature (power generators for tech-points)! See how hard it is to have a clean solution? :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I consider the idea of lerks bile bomb effecting power nodes neither arbitrary or confusing. I think the idea fits in fine with the role of the lerk (support, crowd disrupter), and also fits with the nature of the bile bomb weapon (a decay attack on structures). I am not suggesting a massive programming overhaul. I want to use what is currently in place and tweak some values. The 'power generators' I suggest would be power nodes as they are now, and a different graphics mesh would simply be icing on the cake.
<!--QuoteBegin-Tweadle+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I tried reorganising my thoughts by beginning with what I could only imagine were the original design goals, rather than working backwards from its current flaws, and came to a simpler conclusion:<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What I am suggesting is perhaps not 'backwards thinking', but 'current thinking', in that I am working with what is currently in place and not trying to overhaul everything. I think there are some great things in the current power system that are being hindered by certain unnecessary elements. I am looking to preserve what is working, and removing what isn't.
<!--QuoteBegin-Tweadle+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yuuki then improved upon the idea, respecting the anti-turtle benefits of power and staying sensitive to UWE's workload:<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yuuki's idea is a dramatic change from the current system, would require a fair amount of workload, and the removal of power nodes would cripple a large part of the alien endgame (ie. take down the power node in base), which is a pity.
I guess our main points of difference is that I appreciate the way the power-grid system currently plays out and would like to see it tweaked to work, rather than completely overhauled.
Yeah, we've all been trying to work with what is in place and I just don't think we've really succeeded. Your solution is as good as any other which is to say, not that good in my opinion. Perhaps, though, your 'current thinking' is the only way forward because it's the only way UWE are prepared to go. In which case, bring on all the plurality of suggestions that i've heard before. Bring on powerpacks. Bring on lerk-only damage. Bring it ALL ON because we're going to need all of it. Yours is a solution to a particular set of problems but not to the whole set.
I'm not convinced that Yuuki's suggestion consists of a massive workload. Light entities are easily implemented and chaining power-nodes to turrets only is easy enough. Respectfully, I'll have to disagree with your view that power only requires tweaking in order for it to run smoothly. I'm still firmly in the camp that would prefer an overhaul.
I personally like infestation and the only thing I would change about it is to remove the hive sight. If it is kept it needs to be an upgrade and even then it should only show numbers not exactly what is on it. By that I mean just red blips, not marine icons, not ARC icons and not structure icons. The aliens can know something is there but not what.
The power system is another animal. While I do like the fact that the lights can go down I don't like the fact that it is essentially a giant achilles heel in every room that is tied to a structure that is unimportant other than being... a giant achilles heel.
I'd like try try some changes like this:
-Power nodes removed -RTs now function as power nodes. -Marines structures are powered in the room when the RT is dropped and fully built. -Lights no longer go out, their intensity drops 75% instead (possibly add random flickering if you really want atmosphere but not needed) -Lights only dim when an alien RT is fully built. Thus the room is fully lit when there is no RT or when there is a Marine RT Optional: If a marine RT was built and then destroyed the lights go out and stay out until another marine RT is built -Infestation hive sight is now an evolution on the shade hive. It now only shows generic red blips. Blips can only be identified by a drifter or player -The following structures no longer require power: Command Chair Infantry Portals -Power packs do not need to be built and drop for around 5 TRes. They still power only 1 structure.
What this all means: Power is now tied to a structure that matters and one that people actually want to destroy or defend (thus simplifying the mechanic). This maintains the idea of alien and marine controlled territory. On dimming the lights, rather than having them completely goes out still gives the advantage to the aliens but it is not ridiculously one sided. If the lights are too dim one can look at doing something with bioluminescence to brighten up the room when the aliens are present similar to the images in this thread: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=117722" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=117722</a>. Infestation hive sight is now considerably weaker which allows more unique marine strategies and ninja tactics. I removed the command chair and IPs from power as it is INCREDIBLY frustrating to me that when the power goes out you are essentially screwed in your base. Add this to the fact that I would like RTs to power the room and they actually take res and time to build and it would just completely screw over the marines to lose power to those structures when the RT goes down.
Problems with this idea: -RTs cost res. If the RT goes down in marine spawn and it was their last one it is over. (This could also be seen as a plus I suppose) -RTs actually take time to build so getting the power back on would take some time (possibly this nano-construct feature could help alleviate this?) -Essentially the key to power in the room is still reliant on map design and the map maker and not the commander
I don't think this idea is flawless, but I also think the power system shouldn't be removed. It just needs some serious redesign to be meaningful and less tedious.
Ns1 formula was definitely close to perfect. If they had used the same formula and improved upon it the could have probably reach new heights.
They decided to go the hard way, go in a different direction. When I heard about the power grind, infestation and tech points I was expecting a rework on the game, a lot of major changes. However they simply moved ns1 over and tried to fit it into the new mechanics. That includes the alien commander. This patch has the first real rework to the gameplay but I'm very skeptical about it. This is probably something that should have been done long ago but I wonder if this is the right direction. -------------- About the infestation, this is one of the most frustrating element in ns2 right now. You are instantly spotted when you walk onto infestation and you leave yourself vulnerable every time you have to kill a cyst. This also slows their push down considerably. This has forced marines to simply ignore cyst in competitive play and go straight for the rt's which is also hard since aliens always know exactly where you are positioned. Because the marines can't attack cysts the alien commander is able to infest all the map in 5-10 minutes which completely halts any marine play. Its like a improved motion tracking for aliens. I think it needs some changes, it should not be a free wallhack for the aliens. I also see no reason why it should slow marines, it would be enough to speed up aliens and just prevent sprint. Cysts will also need some fixing, I really hope that the new ability does not obscure vision or slow. Cysts don't really need a buff. ------------ I have seen a lot of talk about the powergrid but no one has been able to come with the perfect solution. Usually there are just ideas that sound like a patch on the problem, like powerpacks. Yuuki has come pretty close to a possible solution but it not certain to improve the gameplay. The fact remains that power nodes are ignored except to instant win marines by killing their base power. This only forces marines into vulnerable spots in the beginning to get the power up. This also prevents a lot of creative play. Currently it would only improve the feel of the game if it was removed, that is the perfect sign for a mechanic that is not working out. ------------- Alien commander is a very boring role and most players seem to hate doing it. It's to easy and you don't really interact with your players which makes the marine commander so good. I doubt that the new patch will fix it but I'm trying to be optimistic. -------------- Now about the ns1 vs ns2 argument, we know that ns1 was a very good game and there are a lot of players who loved it. Because there is no another game like it around they really want ns2 to succeed. The reason some players are posting on the forums is because they can see that the game might be heading in the wrong direction. I also share this feeling after seeing the recent patches, but hopefully it will go back on track after this one.
<!--QuoteBegin-Tweadle+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Respectfully, I'll have to disagree with your view that power only requires tweaking in order for it to run smoothly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Mine is a 3 step program.
Step 1 : Give all current (non Tech Point) power nodes vulnerability only to Bile Bomb. Step 2 : Come up with a simple Bile Bomb effect on these power nodes (eg. disabled for 4 seconds). Step 3 : Add behavior to these power nodes to power down when there are no built structures in room.
Tech point power nodes need no change from current. Rename them to power generators if you must.
And I would just like to point out, the repercussion of this is that power nodes would first require a structure fully-built in their room before they can be activated.
Meh. I don't like the heavy reliance on lerks. I don't like that it doesn't address that the powergrid system forces the same rooms to be used every game, that power makes covert pgs and covert strategies in general even harder, that emphasis is taken away from rooms strategic importance eg. proximity, geometry and that it doesn't make ambiguous power-grid areas any clearer. It addresses the other problems adequately enough but, then again, most proposed solutions do (Industry's being another example). I also feel like you're so close to taking them out anyway that you might as well do just that.
At the end of the day it seems that the majority of people, whether they are in favour of tweaking it or stripping it down, are agreed that the power-grid system is currently flawed in some way. It seems that combining these two groups of people would illicit a significant majority, not a minority (Hugh!) so I hope UWE plans to take some form of action. A cheeky build without power would be fascinating, though!
I wouldn't be so against the power grid system if it weren't for the many locations on the maps where you can build something and it simply gets no power despite being near a power node, or you build something and there are simply no nodes that 'activate' for you to build and give the thing power, stuff like this leaves a really bad taste in my mouth
for example, the hallway right outside of Observation RT on Tram, build something in that hall and it gets no power despite being closer to the node than the actual resource tower
<!--quoteo(post=1926968:date=Apr 18 2012, 09:10 PM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ Apr 18 2012, 09:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926968"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We do not agree that new ideas are killing this game. We do not agree that new ideas are destroying what makes NS great. We do not agree that we have inserted gameplay elements purely to show off a game engine. You seriously underestimate the amount of time that every NS2 developer spends playing NS2 and NS1 every single day. You belittle those that devoted so much of their lives to creating the game starting twelve years ago with you snide jab in post #4. That won't get you where you want.
This thread will no doubt grow as they always do, fed by a vocal minority. It is tired, it is old, this path has been trodden far too many times. Those that wish to tread here again are missing out on contributing to the grow of an exciting new game.
Aside, .ADHd, I can't wait to cast you competitively, I know it will be great. You're clearly very passionate about the game and it's wonderful to see. This kind of thread, effectively advocating creation of NS:Spark by the development team facilitating said mod's creation, does not become you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I may have been a bit hasty with my choice of words and conveyance of opinion, but you are right that I am passionate about this game. I am not trying to belittle anybody or their hard work. I know it's a slight jerk thing to just toss huge design implementations under the bus, but I am not doing it out of rancor or spite. I actually have a lot of faith in UWE, in fact I am a total fanboy of this game. Even genius developers can get to caught up in the manifestation of their internal creations. Maybe it's pride that can hold a creative work back? I honestly believe that DI / powergrid have fundamentally changed the gameplay of natural selection. It seems apparent to me now, through your message, that these changes were intentional. I understand now that the developers want this game to be different and not NS1. I just feel like it is a shame, but if you say that these threads are pointless and will be overlooked then I guess you are right. There is no hope for the players who see this game eye to eye with me. I suppose I can see why you would view my critique as beating a dead horse if the developers are set in their ways. If it's true then I will try my best to offer constructive criticism to the current structure of the game. I just had a thread of hope that the developers would see where I am coming from.
I still love the game, and perhaps I am stuck in a nostalgic suspension. For the record, I do not think new ideas, features, and gameplay elements are ruining NS2. It is the scratching of tried and true mechanics from the first title that I believe can cause some problems. If anything, this game needs MORE ideas and features... if this game is truly going to be a whole new game then I say go all out with it. I would be down for adding all kinds of crazy things to this game. I want new weapons, characters, different game types... anything I am totally down and will support. However, there are a couple things I cannot bring myself to agree with. One of those things are powernodes. It slits the whole map into little buildable quadrants rather than having one big interconnected map like in NS1. I have come to enjoy the DI and I do love the effect of lights going down (Which can be the most awesome experience in NS2). However, over time these cool effects become redundant and you start to wonder what actual purpose they serve to the game. I can understand DI, I just think that system needs some tweaking to make it less powerful.
I give credit where it's due, but I have to kind of agree with Grissi's post. It does feel like UWE had big ideas for DI and other dynamic elements of the game and swiftly dropped the NS1 concept on top of them. I believe all these elements can work but need quite a bit of tweaking. NS1 was tweaked and balanced over years, so adding this new system of DI and power is going to severely knock off the balance. NS1 is very finely tuned which is why I have so much faith in it. I have faith in the new game but I disagree with the path taken since build 198 and on. Maybe this game could be balanced if the abilities of both commanders were buffed... which would essentially make it a game of COMM vs COMM. Let the players have their fun fast paced FPS game but leave all the strategy to the puppet masters.
People are looking at NS1 through rose colored glasses, and as a long standing competitive NS player, I can tell you some changes are needed in NS2. I can't sit here and say Power Grid / DI is the way to go 100% but at least they add some structure to the game. NS1 <i>seriously</i> needed some structure. In NS1 people would spawn in, run off, die, rambo -- pubbing was mostly a mess. The game needs to be setting up engagements and saying "this part of the map is important, now go fight for it." If it's done in a way that people can see and understand I think it'd be a huge improvement over NS1. I don't want to derail this thread into a "balance for competitive players!" whine post, but I hope my post helps you (.ADHd) understand one possible reason why UWE decided to add the Power Grid / DI to NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=1927403:date=Apr 19 2012, 10:25 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Apr 19 2012, 10:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1927403"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People are looking at NS1 through rose colored glasses, and as a long standing competitive NS player, I can tell you some changes are needed in NS2. I can't sit here and say Power Grid / DI is the way to go 100% but at least they add some structure to the game. NS1 <i>seriously</i> needed some structure. In NS1 people would spawn in, run off, die, rambo -- pubbing was mostly a mess. The game needs to be setting up engagements and saying "this part of the map is important, now go fight for it." If it's done in a way that people can see and understand I think it'd be a huge improvement over NS1. I don't want to derail this thread into a "balance for competitive players!" whine post, but I hope my post helps you (.ADHd) understand one possible reason why UWE decided to add the Power Grid / DI to NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Power achieves nothing by way of setting up engagements that resource towers or phasegate entrenchments didn't/don't already. Not sure how much you've played NS2, steve, but power has very little to do with where the battles are fought unless they're setting up camp. DI is equally useless at setting up engagements because people either ignore it to go for the more important alien resource towers or avoid it entirely. Don't get me wrong, NS1 wasn't perfect, but its imperfections are not the result of the absence of power or DI.
<i>Electrify</i> ability to temporarily power structures (for sneaky PG'ing, Beacon etc)? <i>Smolder</i> ability to temporarily clear a small area of sighted infestation?
Having the Comm drop lights (independently of power nodes...) sounds fun.
I have to disagree completely, this game is not just about tactics. The power and infestation bits add so much to the atmosphere and I think adds a seperate tactical element that wasn't present in NS1.
NS1 let people build anywhere, not because it was tactical... but probably more so because of technical limitations. I don't see where any data is showing skill was needed 10 fold by sticking a com chair in a hard to reach vent shaft and turtling in it for the entire game. Or spamming the chairs everywhere... it's simply annoying and takes you out of the atmosphere. Now there are battle lines, flanking manuevers, I could go on.
To put it mildly, NS2 from what I see is still growing and it's already more tactical and has the potential to be even more so.
<!--quoteo(post=1927409:date=Apr 19 2012, 06:34 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Apr 19 2012, 06:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1927409"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Power achieves nothing by way of setting up engagements that resource towers or phasegate entrenchments didn't/don't already. Not sure how much you've played NS2, steve, but power has very little to do with where the battles are fought unless they're setting up camp. DI is equally useless at setting up engagements because people either ignore it to go for the more important alien resource towers or avoid it entirely. Don't get me wrong, NS1 wasn't perfect, but its imperfections are not the result of the absence of power or DI.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right on. To be honest I haven't played NS2 to the point where I'd be willing to make confident statements about balance/design. I'm pretty sure the idea behind DI/Power Nodes was to give the game more structure, though, and to some extend help guide players to engagements.
/edit: and that giving players some structure to guide them through the game would be an improvement over NS1's 'now go fight' method
I think most of us agree that infestation and power nodes are good ideas and its something we would love to see working in the game. Every time you add a mechanic to the game you need to be sure it adds more value to the gameplay than negativity, the power grid does not do that and that's why it either needs to be fixed or removed. Up til now I have not seen any ideas that would make the power grid be awesome but there are few ideas around that will make it end on the positive end, which is good enough. The infestation however is at a much better place but needs some tweaking, the biggest issue here is the free scouting aliens get and how hard it is for marines to deal with it. If these things are adjusted then I'm sure it can end up being positive for the gameplay.
About the engagements parts, that can be bit difficult to fix. I think the biggest problem for new players is knowing where the action/important places are. I think that adding tips on the minimap or during the loading screen could go a long way helping with this issue. A good tutorial(that players would actually go through) would also make it easier for players to see where they should be striking and why.
NS1 simply feels more like a sandbox game. It is what you make it to be. NS2 has a lot more structure and forces players to play a certain way. Okay so there are ups and downs to both approaches. With the former you are able to come up with creative and clever solutions, the outcome of games is resting on the commanders shoulders... he is the overlord. In NS2 the commander role is much less apparent and a team of solid shooters can win the game even with a very inexperienced comm (Not so in NS1). So the game is more catered to adhd twitch shooters... which is also good in my opinion. The players need less direction and strategy than they did in NS1... so the game is a lot more fun and noob friendly. It is obvious the developers want to make this game playable and fun for the masses and not just a small minority or NS1 veterans. Maybe they could implement a "hardcore" mode for more serious players. I know I sound like a condescending, pretentious, elitist but I am just being honest! I am not trying to sound like I am too good for this game and that it is for little kids or something. I am just hoping that the developers would make the game in such a way that you are only limited by your skill and knowledge of the game. Not some arbitrary gameplay mechanic / rule.
So, from my perspective as a strategist and micro manager commander I want to see more options and more creativity for my role. Currently, what you are able to do as commander to help your team win is very limited. You can build arcs and be strategic about what upgrades or where to put phase gates. As long as you keep spending your res and dropping meds you are a good comm. The rest lies in your teams hands. I think it should be the other way around. The team should be limited by the skill of the commander. I digress but this is also related to the fundamental imbalance of the game. I am crippled in my comming abilities by rules and regulations set by the game. If I can think it up I want to be able to do it. I am saying the power and DI system is holding that creative play back. That is my gripe. Perhaps I am an elitist jerk who doesn't care about newcomers to this series. It's not true I want this game to grow and have already bought copies for my friends because I love it so much.
I just do not understand why the developers want to funnel players into a narrow regulated style of play. Obviously there needs to be some structure to the game and having powernodes and DI does help with that. I just think there could be better solutions. You will notice that if you turn cheats on you can drop a hive in any location in a map... I am curious as to why that is. Just think of the possibility of bases and relocations that could be done. Think of how you could exploit each maps strong points and make your base the best it could possibly be. You make the map your own. That just sounds incredibly awesome and fun... not to mention dynamic. Maybe there could be an option for unrestricted bases. There needs to be more settings and customizations in my opinion.
<!--quoteo(post=1926931:date=Apr 18 2012, 09:11 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Apr 18 2012, 09:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926931"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, keep in mind a lot of NS1 was actually community made... including maps and textures... I even heard rumors a lot was programmed by a guy outside uwe. This is not meant to be a cheapshot towards the devs and their abilities to make games.... it is simply a way for me to show that outside opinion is very important in the creation of a product.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh yeah? Because it certainly reads like a cheap shot. People like Flayra don't get to have the job title "game designer" and spend all day following real design methodologies by posting on forums and spreading rumors, dude.
<!--quoteo(post=1927486:date=Apr 19 2012, 09:53 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Apr 19 2012, 09:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1927486"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just do not understand why the developers want to funnel players into a narrow regulated style of play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps he means voogru, that and of course there were a lot of programmers in NS1 that aren't (and never were) a part of UWE. Add to that the various community-mappers responsible for some of the most played maps, I can more or less see where he's coming from. Basically, seeing UWE as a continuation of the NS1-devteam is false.
First, the commander will never limit the team. NS is an FPS/RTS, but with 7/8/9 players playing the FPS side and only 1 playing the RTS per team. Due to the inherent design of how an FPS/RTS works one side will be forced to make concessions and it <i>should be</i> the RTS side. If you argue otherwise I'd write your opinion off and say your passion/vision is clouding your better judgement. If the FPS side was limited by the RTS side UWE would have a lot more complaints on their hands.
So far you say what you can do as a comm is really limited, but I disagree. They've only added on to the commander's duties in NS2. The addition of micro'ing ARCS, MACS, Drifters are a nice way to differentiate skill levels between comms when things get intense and everyone is calling for meds/building drops/etc. Was watching a marine rambo off then yell for a ninja phase gate such a great mechanic that we want that in NS2?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Obviously there needs to be some structure to the game and having powernodes and DI does help with that. I just think there could be better solutions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Would you like to share any? You're basically talking in circles, saying at first DI/Power Nodes were only added to show off graphical effects. Upon learning their place in the game's design you agree their needed, then go into why they aren't, then say you want something like DI/Nodes but not quite DI/Nodes.
I'm so confused. And, this time, it's not because I'm a moron.
<!--quoteo(post=1927486:date=Apr 19 2012, 09:53 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Apr 19 2012, 09:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1927486"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS1 simply feels more like a sandbox game. It is what you make it to be. NS2 has a lot more structure and forces players to play a certain way. Okay so there are ups and downs to both approaches. With the former you are able to come up with creative and clever solutions, the outcome of games is resting on the commanders shoulders... he is the overlord. In NS2 the commander role is much less apparent and a team of solid shooters can win the game even with a very inexperienced comm (Not so in NS1). So the game is more catered to adhd twitch shooters... which is also good in my opinion. The players need less direction and strategy than they did in NS1... so the game is a lot more fun and noob friendly. It is obvious the developers want to make this game playable and fun for the masses and not just a small minority or NS1 veterans. Maybe they could implement a "hardcore" mode for more serious players. I know I sound like a condescending, pretentious, elitist but I am just being honest! I am not trying to sound like I am too good for this game and that it is for little kids or something. I am just hoping that the developers would make the game in such a way that you are only limited by your skill and knowledge of the game. Not some arbitrary gameplay mechanic / rule.
So, from my perspective as a strategist and micro manager commander I want to see more options and more creativity for my role. Currently, what you are able to do as commander to help your team win is very limited. You can build arcs and be strategic about what upgrades or where to put phase gates. As long as you keep spending your res and dropping meds you are a good comm. The rest lies in your teams hands. I think it should be the other way around. The team should be limited by the skill of the commander. I digress but this is also related to the fundamental imbalance of the game. I am crippled in my comming abilities by rules and regulations set by the game. If I can think it up I want to be able to do it. I am saying the power and DI system is holding that creative play back. That is my gripe. Perhaps I am an elitist jerk who doesn't care about newcomers to this series. It's not true I want this game to grow and have already bought copies for my friends because I love it so much.
I just do not understand why the developers want to funnel players into a narrow regulated style of play. Obviously there needs to be some structure to the game and having powernodes and DI does help with that. I just think there could be better solutions. You will notice that if you turn cheats on you can drop a hive in any location in a map... I am curious as to why that is. Just think of the possibility of bases and relocations that could be done. Think of how you could exploit each maps strong points and make your base the best it could possibly be. You make the map your own. That just sounds incredibly awesome and fun... not to mention dynamic. Maybe there could be an option for unrestricted bases. There needs to be more settings and customizations in my opinion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's true that games now days are more streamlined and gives less freedom to the players so its not surprising that ns2 is going that route as well. However there are ways to make games easy to play but have enough depth so players take years to master it. Sc2 is the perfect example, even though its not as deep as sc1 it still manages to serve both the new players and veterans. There is a good reason why it stands above all other rts games and will keep a strong playerbase for years.
The fps community has been waiting for quite a long time now for a new strong fps game. Currently there have been no real competitive fps games since quake/hl era that I know of(there are other games, such as ut/et/cs etc that came out). Sure games have had their competitive communities and lasted 2-3 years but nothing close to the old powerhouses. The skill ceiling is usually to low for the game to develop making the game static with to many players reaching the top tier. For this reason I know there is a huge amount of players waiting for a game they can play competitively, the first fps game to do it right will get a huge competitive playerbase. Ns1 was one of these games that lasted through time, had a very active competitive community til recently. Ns2 has the same potential but it does need to make some improvements if it wants to reach that level. ---- About ns2, I agree that the game feels very limited right now, I'm pretty sure it will improve however when we get closer to 1.0 and everything is balanced out. The game should work for all levels of play without any competitive mod, competitive mod would make for smaller competitive player base and could confuse new players when spectating matches. There are few things that worry me though. That includes some mechanics, few issues with the current resource system and the importance of each role/ability/weapon in the game.
I'm at least going to stay optimistic and be knowing that the game will turn out to be awesome. I'll definitely play it.
It's obvious this topic has raised a little tension. Probably took it a little further than it needed to go to be honest. I wasn't trying to rip apart UWE's game and developers. I am just kinda being a jerk right now and it's due to personal life problems. I like to take my anger out by coming up with crazy ideas in my head and forcing them on the world to see it's reaction.
I know how to get under peoples skin. I know the words to say to get under someones skin, but it also makes people think. Maybe it just makes me look bad. Either way I recant my earlier statements about this game and how it's being designed. This game is a beautiful work of art and inspiration. I would play it purely for that. I am spoiled... and so are all the people on this forum. The developers are spoiling us, and now were a bunch of kids who want more than we bargained for.
I refused to put myself in the developers shoes and wanted to force my ideas down everyones throat (mind?). Though I do still wish the game was more like NS1, but I can still have it that way. The developers are so awesome that they have developed a highly customizable engine. So any weird fantasy I can imagine is right at my finger tips. A little scripting and I could have the game balanced however I wanted. I could run my own server. That is the beauty of this game. I say let the developers design the game however THEY see fit. It is their game after all. We should be allowed to give constructive criticism, because even the greatest artists still benefit from feedback. However, no artist likes to be told how to stroke his brush. I am an artist myself so I know I crossed the line there.
I apologize to the developers, and this games community. I actually support any design the developers come up with because they know the game better than me. It is their game, and I am just stupid to think that I have all the answers. UWE is way smarter and more talented than I could ever hope to be. I love your game and want to see it succeed. I promote this game all the time. I bother people to get it constantly even if they said they didn't like NS1. I will be relentless cause I wanna see this game get huge.
Comments
+1
I think the main issue is the lack of flexibility due to techpoints (comm chair / hive locations). It's created very mechanical and structual gameplay.
I agree that power points do need to be looked at, it's a chore to build and destroy them on both sides.
Visually they have obvious art benefits and my favourite moments so far have been the moment power goes down, or wandering into a beautifully crafted alien base.
Power nodes are very tough in recent builds, but they have been vital in ending Marine turtling which made NS1 rounds drag on. Power nodes help games end suddenly which i like.
Hive site has stoped me ninja gating several times - although cysts will be less spammable next patch. Perhaps they could introduce a building which added hive site to the infestation it was on, you could make it an evolution to really slow it down and marines could take out that building to gain a strategic advantage. The only problem is that it would essentially be obs for aliens.
Aside, .ADHd, I can't wait to cast you competitively, I know it will be great. You're clearly very passionate about the game and it's wonderful to see. This kind of thread, effectively advocating creation of NS:Spark by the development team facilitating said mod's creation, does not become you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I feel compelled to point out that dismissing any and all criticism (which are usually attempts at constructive feedback, even if you may not see them as such) as being "fed by a vocal minority" and "effectively advocating creation of NS:Spark" is pretty much the world champion of things that are tired, old and paths that have been trodden far too many times on this forum.
a) to power lights
b) to give the marines a weak spot to disable buildings
To keep both of these features in, while taking out the boring parts is easy.
When the Commander places a building, the marines will be directed to build the structure and power the node as usual. The power node acts as a 'switch' and so once the power node is up, Khaara cannot attack the power node directly (except the lerk). The only way in which to bring the power down is to remove the last building being powered by that node, at which point, power to the room would drop out.
The lerk is the only Khaara who can directly attack the power node, through the bile bomb. The bombs effectively knock out the power temporarily (disabling phase gates, etc.), allowing for a quick swarm of skulks to rush in and take out the structures.
Tech points (CC locations), wouldn't have power nodes, they would instead have 'power generators'. All Khaara will be able to attack these generators directly, and would be repaired just like the power nodes are now.
This allows the current alien end game (knock out power in base) to be the same. This generator will power the entire map (if only 1 generator is running) and will need to be restarted to gain power anywhere at all (but lets face it that is endgame right there anyway).
I think this will keep everything more or less the same as it is now, while fundamentally eradicating the current pointlessness of power nodes.
I tried reorganising my thoughts by beginning with what I could only imagine were the original design goals, rather than working backwards from its current flaws, and came to a simpler conclusion:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->More seriously, I think we need to ask ourselves why the powergrid system was introduced in the first place. From here we can see how successful it is at doing what it's intended to do and whether there are any neat alternatives. I think it's pretty clear that it's failed in making NS stategically interesting (myself and many others have explained why in detail elsewhere) but I still see a role for it turning on the lights and making a room feel alien/marine/contested. If anybody can enlighten me as to further design goals, please do.
The feeling of a room being 'owned' is fine. It's not overly important in the grand scheme of things but still a noble enough goal - I largely bracket it under 'immersion'. We already have something that does this extremely well, though. Infestation is the perfect tool for making things feel alien and, let's face it, everything else usually feels pretty human/marine without it anyway. Infestation is perfect because it ominously 'spreads', it's a great aesthetic cue, it's a consequence of real choices made by aliens, it's one of the real signs that an alien commander even exists, it is genuinely useful for aliens and, lastly, it is attached to advantages and disadvantages that alter gameplay. We're trying to get power to do something that is already done very well by something else.
Turning on the lights does create a level of gameplay that doesn't always exist in other games. While I personally don't like being in the dark 30% of the time and I know for a fact that light maps are statistically favoured in other games, I can work with the concept in principle. What I would argue though is that, ignoring my personal gripe against darkness, there other ways of achieving this mechanic. Mappers are the first port of call in this regard and can choose to make rooms with whatever lighting they wish. What this lacks is the dynamism of the current system though where a room can change from light to dark. To be quite honest, I think commanders should just be able to drop massive lamps that light a room. It's a really simple idea without any glaring difficulties. Everyone gets their light/dark fix.
So of the three goals (strategy, immersion, light/dark gameplay); one has failed, the other is already done and the last is achievable through an incredibly simple feature which is easy to implement and balance. I'm therefore suggesting something which I guess is quite radical. I want the whole powergrid system to be replaced by... portable lights.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yuuki then improved upon the idea, respecting the anti-turtle benefits of power and staying sensitive to UWE's workload:
<!--quoteo(post=1927060:date=Apr 19 2012, 10:14 AM:name=)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ( @ Apr 19 2012, 10:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1927060"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Solution:
1) The comm can drop lights. There is already some props of large spot lights so it would not require a lot of work. It will replace a static light system by something much more dynamic, the comm has to think where to build the lights: more freedom, people like freedom. The lights can be attacked and destroyed, so you would get this cinematic effect of lights going down. It would also allow mappers to have some dark area in the map since it can be countered.
Dynamic lighting in the engine, dynamic lights in the game; make sense.
2) Rename the power pack to "sentry power system", it will power the turrets only. Destroying it disable the sentries. It allows to have a weak point in turret spammed area. It also allow the comm to choose a good spot for the "sentry power system" instead of having a fixed position on the map.
3) Use building loss of power animation to show when a building get recycled.
4) Remove power nodes since they are no longer needed.
It's a nice solution because it requires (relatively) little work and recycle most of what has already been done: no good work gets wasted. By splitting the different function of power nodes (lights, turret factory, base destroyer, ..) it also facilitate balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
By adopting this, I think we will have achieved the following:
- Kept light/dark gameplay.
- Kept anti-turtle elements by chaining power only to turrets
- Replaced visual drama of losing power-node to the portable lights instead
- 'Owning' rooms is now done through portable lights, infestation and structure presence
- Returned numerous interesting strategic options to marines by unrestricting structure placements
- Removed tedium of biting/building/repairing nodes
- Removed the need for the clunky powerpack
- Removed confusing boundaries for power and their area-of-effect
- Removed massive weakness to marine start
- Restored the importance of locations by virtue of proximity, geometry and usefulness
- Facilitated easier and more specific balance tweaking by splitting functions
- Respected the work already put into designing power-nodes, animations etc.
- Respected, hopefully, the original design goals where possible
- Kept things simple
- Kept things interesting
The ideas he and others propose are not dumb, nor are they necessarily overly damaging to the game. They are, however, work-arounds, quick-fixes, short-term solutions, arbitrary rules and/or new features to cover up old features! We should be seeking to simplify rather than complicate (note: 'complicated' doesn't mean deep or interesting, it just means complicated) the power-grid system and if that isn't possible, and I suspect that it isn't, then stripping it down might be the next best solution.
BB is its own damage type already, I believe; it does Corrosive damage.
I consider the idea of lerks bile bomb effecting power nodes neither arbitrary or confusing. I think the idea fits in fine with the role of the lerk (support, crowd disrupter), and also fits with the nature of the bile bomb weapon (a decay attack on structures).
I am not suggesting a massive programming overhaul. I want to use what is currently in place and tweak some values. The 'power generators' I suggest would be power nodes as they are now, and a different graphics mesh would simply be icing on the cake.
<!--QuoteBegin-Tweadle+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I tried reorganising my thoughts by beginning with what I could only imagine were the original design goals, rather than working backwards from its current flaws, and came to a simpler conclusion:<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What I am suggesting is perhaps not 'backwards thinking', but 'current thinking', in that I am working with what is currently in place and not trying to overhaul everything. I think there are some great things in the current power system that are being hindered by certain unnecessary elements. I am looking to preserve what is working, and removing what isn't.
<!--QuoteBegin-Tweadle+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yuuki then improved upon the idea, respecting the anti-turtle benefits of power and staying sensitive to UWE's workload:<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yuuki's idea is a dramatic change from the current system, would require a fair amount of workload, and the removal of power nodes would cripple a large part of the alien endgame (ie. take down the power node in base), which is a pity.
I guess our main points of difference is that I appreciate the way the power-grid system currently plays out and would like to see it tweaked to work, rather than completely overhauled.
I'm not convinced that Yuuki's suggestion consists of a massive workload. Light entities are easily implemented and chaining power-nodes to turrets only is easy enough. Respectfully, I'll have to disagree with your view that power only requires tweaking in order for it to run smoothly. I'm still firmly in the camp that would prefer an overhaul.
The power system is another animal. While I do like the fact that the lights can go down I don't like the fact that it is essentially a giant achilles heel in every room that is tied to a structure that is unimportant other than being... a giant achilles heel.
I'd like try try some changes like this:
-Power nodes removed
-RTs now function as power nodes.
-Marines structures are powered in the room when the RT is dropped and fully built.
-Lights no longer go out, their intensity drops 75% instead (possibly add random flickering if you really want atmosphere but not needed)
-Lights only dim when an alien RT is fully built. Thus the room is fully lit when there is no RT or when there is a Marine RT
Optional: If a marine RT was built and then destroyed the lights go out and stay out until another marine RT is built
-Infestation hive sight is now an evolution on the shade hive. It now only shows generic red blips. Blips can only be identified by a drifter or player
-The following structures no longer require power:
Command Chair
Infantry Portals
-Power packs do not need to be built and drop for around 5 TRes. They still power only 1 structure.
What this all means:
Power is now tied to a structure that matters and one that people actually want to destroy or defend (thus simplifying the mechanic). This maintains the idea of alien and marine controlled territory. On dimming the lights, rather than having them completely goes out still gives the advantage to the aliens but it is not ridiculously one sided. If the lights are too dim one can look at doing something with bioluminescence to brighten up the room when the aliens are present similar to the images in this thread: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=117722" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=117722</a>. Infestation hive sight is now considerably weaker which allows more unique marine strategies and ninja tactics. I removed the command chair and IPs from power as it is INCREDIBLY frustrating to me that when the power goes out you are essentially screwed in your base. Add this to the fact that I would like RTs to power the room and they actually take res and time to build and it would just completely screw over the marines to lose power to those structures when the RT goes down.
Problems with this idea:
-RTs cost res. If the RT goes down in marine spawn and it was their last one it is over. (This could also be seen as a plus I suppose)
-RTs actually take time to build so getting the power back on would take some time (possibly this nano-construct feature could help alleviate this?)
-Essentially the key to power in the room is still reliant on map design and the map maker and not the commander
I don't think this idea is flawless, but I also think the power system shouldn't be removed. It just needs some serious redesign to be meaningful and less tedious.
They decided to go the hard way, go in a different direction. When I heard about the power grind, infestation and tech points I was expecting a rework on the game, a lot of major changes. However they simply moved ns1 over and tried to fit it into the new mechanics. That includes the alien commander.
This patch has the first real rework to the gameplay but I'm very skeptical about it. This is probably something that should have been done long ago but I wonder if this is the right direction.
--------------
About the infestation, this is one of the most frustrating element in ns2 right now. You are instantly spotted when you walk onto infestation and you leave yourself vulnerable every time you have to kill a cyst. This also slows their push down considerably. This has forced marines to simply ignore cyst in competitive play and go straight for the rt's which is also hard since aliens always know exactly where you are positioned. Because the marines can't attack cysts the alien commander is able to infest all the map in 5-10 minutes which completely halts any marine play. Its like a improved motion tracking for aliens. I think it needs some changes, it should not be a free wallhack for the aliens. I also see no reason why it should slow marines, it would be enough to speed up aliens and just prevent sprint.
Cysts will also need some fixing, I really hope that the new ability does not obscure vision or slow. Cysts don't really need a buff.
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I have seen a lot of talk about the powergrid but no one has been able to come with the perfect solution. Usually there are just ideas that sound like a patch on the problem, like powerpacks. Yuuki has come pretty close to a possible solution but it not certain to improve the gameplay. The fact remains that power nodes are ignored except to instant win marines by killing their base power. This only forces marines into vulnerable spots in the beginning to get the power up. This also prevents a lot of creative play. Currently it would only improve the feel of the game if it was removed, that is the perfect sign for a mechanic that is not working out.
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Alien commander is a very boring role and most players seem to hate doing it. It's to easy and you don't really interact with your players which makes the marine commander so good. I doubt that the new patch will fix it but I'm trying to be optimistic.
--------------
Now about the ns1 vs ns2 argument, we know that ns1 was a very good game and there are a lot of players who loved it. Because there is no another game like it around they really want ns2 to succeed. The reason some players are posting on the forums is because they can see that the game might be heading in the wrong direction. I also share this feeling after seeing the recent patches, but hopefully it will go back on track after this one.
Mine is a 3 step program.
Step 1 : Give all current (non Tech Point) power nodes vulnerability only to Bile Bomb.
Step 2 : Come up with a simple Bile Bomb effect on these power nodes (eg. disabled for 4 seconds).
Step 3 : Add behavior to these power nodes to power down when there are no built structures in room.
Tech point power nodes need no change from current. Rename them to power generators if you must.
And I would just like to point out, the repercussion of this is that power nodes would first require a structure fully-built in their room before they can be activated.
At the end of the day it seems that the majority of people, whether they are in favour of tweaking it or stripping it down, are agreed that the power-grid system is currently flawed in some way. It seems that combining these two groups of people would illicit a significant majority, not a minority (Hugh!) so I hope UWE plans to take some form of action. A cheeky build without power would be fascinating, though!
I wouldn't be so against the power grid system if it weren't for the many locations on the maps where you can build something and it simply gets no power despite being near a power node, or you build something and there are simply no nodes that 'activate' for you to build and give the thing power, stuff like this leaves a really bad taste in my mouth
for example, the hallway right outside of Observation RT on Tram, build something in that hall and it gets no power despite being closer to the node than the actual resource tower
This thread will no doubt grow as they always do, fed by a vocal minority. It is tired, it is old, this path has been trodden far too many times. Those that wish to tread here again are missing out on contributing to the grow of an exciting new game.
Aside, .ADHd, I can't wait to cast you competitively, I know it will be great. You're clearly very passionate about the game and it's wonderful to see. This kind of thread, effectively advocating creation of NS:Spark by the development team facilitating said mod's creation, does not become you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I may have been a bit hasty with my choice of words and conveyance of opinion, but you are right that I am passionate about this game. I am not trying to belittle anybody or their hard work. I know it's a slight jerk thing to just toss huge design implementations under the bus, but I am not doing it out of rancor or spite. I actually have a lot of faith in UWE, in fact I am a total fanboy of this game. Even genius developers can get to caught up in the manifestation of their internal creations. Maybe it's pride that can hold a creative work back? I honestly believe that DI / powergrid have fundamentally changed the gameplay of natural selection. It seems apparent to me now, through your message, that these changes were intentional. I understand now that the developers want this game to be different and not NS1. I just feel like it is a shame, but if you say that these threads are pointless and will be overlooked then I guess you are right. There is no hope for the players who see this game eye to eye with me. I suppose I can see why you would view my critique as beating a dead horse if the developers are set in their ways. If it's true then I will try my best to offer constructive criticism to the current structure of the game. I just had a thread of hope that the developers would see where I am coming from.
I still love the game, and perhaps I am stuck in a nostalgic suspension. For the record, I do not think new ideas, features, and gameplay elements are ruining NS2. It is the scratching of tried and true mechanics from the first title that I believe can cause some problems. If anything, this game needs MORE ideas and features... if this game is truly going to be a whole new game then I say go all out with it. I would be down for adding all kinds of crazy things to this game. I want new weapons, characters, different game types... anything I am totally down and will support. However, there are a couple things I cannot bring myself to agree with. One of those things are powernodes. It slits the whole map into little buildable quadrants rather than having one big interconnected map like in NS1. I have come to enjoy the DI and I do love the effect of lights going down (Which can be the most awesome experience in NS2). However, over time these cool effects become redundant and you start to wonder what actual purpose they serve to the game. I can understand DI, I just think that system needs some tweaking to make it less powerful.
I give credit where it's due, but I have to kind of agree with Grissi's post. It does feel like UWE had big ideas for DI and other dynamic elements of the game and swiftly dropped the NS1 concept on top of them. I believe all these elements can work but need quite a bit of tweaking. NS1 was tweaked and balanced over years, so adding this new system of DI and power is going to severely knock off the balance. NS1 is very finely tuned which is why I have so much faith in it. I have faith in the new game but I disagree with the path taken since build 198 and on. Maybe this game could be balanced if the abilities of both commanders were buffed... which would essentially make it a game of COMM vs COMM. Let the players have their fun fast paced FPS game but leave all the strategy to the puppet masters.
Power achieves nothing by way of setting up engagements that resource towers or phasegate entrenchments didn't/don't already. Not sure how much you've played NS2, steve, but power has very little to do with where the battles are fought unless they're setting up camp. DI is equally useless at setting up engagements because people either ignore it to go for the more important alien resource towers or avoid it entirely. Don't get me wrong, NS1 wasn't perfect, but its imperfections are not the result of the absence of power or DI.
Having the Comm drop lights (independently of power nodes...) sounds fun.
NS1 let people build anywhere, not because it was tactical... but probably more so because of technical limitations. I don't see where any data is showing skill was needed 10 fold by sticking a com chair in a hard to reach vent shaft and turtling in it for the entire game. Or spamming the chairs everywhere... it's simply annoying and takes you out of the atmosphere. Now there are battle lines, flanking manuevers, I could go on.
To put it mildly, NS2 from what I see is still growing and it's already more tactical and has the potential to be even more so.
Right on. To be honest I haven't played NS2 to the point where I'd be willing to make confident statements about balance/design. I'm pretty sure the idea behind DI/Power Nodes was to give the game more structure, though, and to some extend help guide players to engagements.
/edit: and that giving players some structure to guide them through the game would be an improvement over NS1's 'now go fight' method
The infestation however is at a much better place but needs some tweaking, the biggest issue here is the free scouting aliens get and how hard it is for marines to deal with it. If these things are adjusted then I'm sure it can end up being positive for the gameplay.
About the engagements parts, that can be bit difficult to fix. I think the biggest problem for new players is knowing where the action/important places are. I think that adding tips on the minimap or during the loading screen could go a long way helping with this issue.
A good tutorial(that players would actually go through) would also make it easier for players to see where they should be striking and why.
So, from my perspective as a strategist and micro manager commander I want to see more options and more creativity for my role. Currently, what you are able to do as commander to help your team win is very limited. You can build arcs and be strategic about what upgrades or where to put phase gates. As long as you keep spending your res and dropping meds you are a good comm. The rest lies in your teams hands. I think it should be the other way around. The team should be limited by the skill of the commander. I digress but this is also related to the fundamental imbalance of the game. I am crippled in my comming abilities by rules and regulations set by the game. If I can think it up I want to be able to do it. I am saying the power and DI system is holding that creative play back. That is my gripe. Perhaps I am an elitist jerk who doesn't care about newcomers to this series. It's not true I want this game to grow and have already bought copies for my friends because I love it so much.
I just do not understand why the developers want to funnel players into a narrow regulated style of play. Obviously there needs to be some structure to the game and having powernodes and DI does help with that. I just think there could be better solutions. You will notice that if you turn cheats on you can drop a hive in any location in a map... I am curious as to why that is. Just think of the possibility of bases and relocations that could be done. Think of how you could exploit each maps strong points and make your base the best it could possibly be. You make the map your own. That just sounds incredibly awesome and fun... not to mention dynamic. Maybe there could be an option for unrestricted bases. There needs to be more settings and customizations in my opinion.
Oh yeah? Because it certainly reads like a cheap shot. People like Flayra don't get to have the job title "game designer" and spend all day following real design methodologies by posting on forums and spreading rumors, dude.
<!--quoteo(post=1927486:date=Apr 19 2012, 09:53 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Apr 19 2012, 09:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1927486"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just do not understand why the developers want to funnel players into a narrow regulated style of play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
...or by putting words in their mouth
First, the commander will never limit the team. NS is an FPS/RTS, but with 7/8/9 players playing the FPS side and only 1 playing the RTS per team. Due to the inherent design of how an FPS/RTS works one side will be forced to make concessions and it <i>should be</i> the RTS side. If you argue otherwise I'd write your opinion off and say your passion/vision is clouding your better judgement. If the FPS side was limited by the RTS side UWE would have a lot more complaints on their hands.
So far you say what you can do as a comm is really limited, but I disagree. They've only added on to the commander's duties in NS2. The addition of micro'ing ARCS, MACS, Drifters are a nice way to differentiate skill levels between comms when things get intense and everyone is calling for meds/building drops/etc. Was watching a marine rambo off then yell for a ninja phase gate such a great mechanic that we want that in NS2?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Obviously there needs to be some structure to the game and having powernodes and DI does help with that. I just think there could be better solutions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Would you like to share any? You're basically talking in circles, saying at first DI/Power Nodes were only added to show off graphical effects. Upon learning their place in the game's design you agree their needed, then go into why they aren't, then say you want something like DI/Nodes but not quite DI/Nodes.
I'm so confused. And, this time, it's not because I'm a moron.
So, from my perspective as a strategist and micro manager commander I want to see more options and more creativity for my role. Currently, what you are able to do as commander to help your team win is very limited. You can build arcs and be strategic about what upgrades or where to put phase gates. As long as you keep spending your res and dropping meds you are a good comm. The rest lies in your teams hands. I think it should be the other way around. The team should be limited by the skill of the commander. I digress but this is also related to the fundamental imbalance of the game. I am crippled in my comming abilities by rules and regulations set by the game. If I can think it up I want to be able to do it. I am saying the power and DI system is holding that creative play back. That is my gripe. Perhaps I am an elitist jerk who doesn't care about newcomers to this series. It's not true I want this game to grow and have already bought copies for my friends because I love it so much.
I just do not understand why the developers want to funnel players into a narrow regulated style of play. Obviously there needs to be some structure to the game and having powernodes and DI does help with that. I just think there could be better solutions. You will notice that if you turn cheats on you can drop a hive in any location in a map... I am curious as to why that is. Just think of the possibility of bases and relocations that could be done. Think of how you could exploit each maps strong points and make your base the best it could possibly be. You make the map your own. That just sounds incredibly awesome and fun... not to mention dynamic. Maybe there could be an option for unrestricted bases. There needs to be more settings and customizations in my opinion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's true that games now days are more streamlined and gives less freedom to the players so its not surprising that ns2 is going that route as well. However there are ways to make games easy to play but have enough depth so players take years to master it. Sc2 is the perfect example, even though its not as deep as sc1 it still manages to serve both the new players and veterans. There is a good reason why it stands above all other rts games and will keep a strong playerbase for years.
The fps community has been waiting for quite a long time now for a new strong fps game. Currently there have been no real competitive fps games since quake/hl era that I know of(there are other games, such as ut/et/cs etc that came out). Sure games have had their competitive communities and lasted 2-3 years but nothing close to the old powerhouses. The skill ceiling is usually to low for the game to develop making the game static with to many players reaching the top tier. For this reason I know there is a huge amount of players waiting for a game they can play competitively, the first fps game to do it right will get a huge competitive playerbase. Ns1 was one of these games that lasted through time, had a very active competitive community til recently. Ns2 has the same potential but it does need to make some improvements if it wants to reach that level.
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About ns2, I agree that the game feels very limited right now, I'm pretty sure it will improve however when we get closer to 1.0 and everything is balanced out. The game should work for all levels of play without any competitive mod, competitive mod would make for smaller competitive player base and could confuse new players when spectating matches.
There are few things that worry me though. That includes some mechanics, few issues with the current resource system and the importance of each role/ability/weapon in the game.
I'm at least going to stay optimistic and be knowing that the game will turn out to be awesome. I'll definitely play it.
I know how to get under peoples skin. I know the words to say to get under someones skin, but it also makes people think. Maybe it just makes me look bad. Either way I recant my earlier statements about this game and how it's being designed. This game is a beautiful work of art and inspiration. I would play it purely for that. I am spoiled... and so are all the people on this forum. The developers are spoiling us, and now were a bunch of kids who want more than we bargained for.
I refused to put myself in the developers shoes and wanted to force my ideas down everyones throat (mind?). Though I do still wish the game was more like NS1, but I can still have it that way. The developers are so awesome that they have developed a highly customizable engine. So any weird fantasy I can imagine is right at my finger tips. A little scripting and I could have the game balanced however I wanted. I could run my own server. That is the beauty of this game. I say let the developers design the game however THEY see fit. It is their game after all. We should be allowed to give constructive criticism, because even the greatest artists still benefit from feedback. However, no artist likes to be told how to stroke his brush. I am an artist myself so I know I crossed the line there.
I apologize to the developers, and this games community. I actually support any design the developers come up with because they know the game better than me. It is their game, and I am just stupid to think that I have all the answers. UWE is way smarter and more talented than I could ever hope to be. I love your game and want to see it succeed. I promote this game all the time. I bother people to get it constantly even if they said they didn't like NS1. I will be relentless cause I wanna see this game get huge.