If gorges built whips they'd still need the comm to use them. And I can imagine that it's not easy for an alien comm to keep track of where his gorges are building the whips that he then has to move. And did I mention that whips are absolutely worthless in their current state? (Aside from being used for grenade ping pong) IMO the whip should be a clear cut offensive structure that the comm builds and uses to help his team break into fortified marine positions. Either that or it should be given to the gorge and be immobile, but capable of properly sieging structures. (i.e long range bile bomb)
Would really come down to whether you want the gorge to be an exclusively defensive field engineer, or one that is also capable of assisting his team on the offense (aside from his healing role) But they REALLY should make the division between the alien comm and the gorge very clear. Having them both build defenses ruins it for both the gorge and the commander imo, since neither of them can do it properly.
One whip = temporary gl defense, buying your team time to wipe out the attackers. By no means are they useless. They also serve as a good deterrent.
I gotta agree on the alien com being boring to play right now. I'll have my set of control groups for shade cloak up all the time and constantly expand, help direct aliens, but I play such an inactive roll compared to the marine com. I'd love to see support abilities on the alien team you can use anywhere on the map to help out your life forms like primal scream. Have it be an aoe effect, but make it cost pres like marine com so you really have to balance between cysting and using abilities to gain a combat advantage. Perhaps tie these abilities to different hive types.
Your not alone in your thoughts and I honestly think they are making a HUGE mistake...
Just because something is balanced doesn't mean its fun that imbalance itself creates a lot of the fun...
UNW really need to swallow their pride admit they have made a big mistake with the gorge/alien commander and go back to the NS1 setup... It's very odd to me they have changed a part of the game which people liked the most this is not a good way to attract new players...
I guess we can always have hope that someone will create a NS1 style mode for NS2 god knows it will probably be more popular then NS2 itself...
PS if i want to play a perfectly balanced game then I'll flip coins..
<!--quoteo(post=1918142:date=Mar 26 2012, 01:53 PM:name=Doppy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Doppy @ Mar 26 2012, 01:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918142"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So the fact that they gave more for the Alien Commander to do it has made it boring? You don't have to use Catalyze if you don't want to. You can still go Lerk and fly around "helping" your team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, I feel the same way. It's a total pain in the ass to watch all my pres vanish to make cysts that idiots don't protect, then get out to take matters into my own hands and play a no-upgrades skulk for 10 minutes until we lose and start over. I used to do exactly what he's saying (alien comm, get out to lerk when I need to, get back in, trade off the commander role with other players) and it was way more fun. At the end of the day, whether I had fun or not is going to colour my opinion on the direction this game takes..
A lot of the changes being made will put NS2 in the same category as TF2 for me - a game with a ton of potential that I can only stand to play in a competitive scrim setting, because inexperienced/bad/griefing players run the show.
Note that I am not against the alien commander itself. I think it's a good idea to make sure that there's one person responsible for overall command and control, I just think it either needs to be made more fun (allowing an alien commander to actively contribute in fights like the rine commander), or to make it a part-time job like it used to be, where the commander gets his fun as a normal alien and at the same time the sense of overall contribution to the team.
I'm convinced they'll figure something out, but I do think the way it currently works is bad for getting people to actually comm. I'm getting into more and more situations where noone wants to comm on publics and even gathers. If becoming commander is "taking one for the team", it has no place in a game that's supposed to be fun for everyone.
<!--quoteo(post=1918090:date=Mar 26 2012, 11:18 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Mar 26 2012, 11:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918090"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Welcome Jaunty. The Gorge is currently still a work in progress, with more planned abilities and structures to build then what he currently has. One of which will be "Goo walls" which will allow him to create walls for him and other aliens to hide behind, and to slow down enemy progression. In the end he should have plenty to do, and while his role may be different from how he was in NS1, he should have plenty of stuff to do and be an important contributing member of the team.
Some people have already stated some of the reasons for the addition of the alien Commander in this thread , and while it has certainly been a controversial issue with the NS1 crowd, we feel it was a necessary change to make. There is still quite a lot of new features left to do on the alien commander side as well.
I'd just say, keep playing and hopefully the changes will grow on you.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cory, thanks for the response. It's nice to hear from an actual team member about the game's development, and no matter what criticisms I may have, I really appreciate you guys for what you've created. As you said, the gorge is still being worked on extensively so it's hard for us to tell exactly how he'll turn out in the end, but with the alien commander around I don't see how the gorge could ever enjoy the level of utility he once had.
I'm sure there were balance issues in NS1, but I don't feel they were important enough to require such a huge mechanic being thrown in. I remember, more often than not, NS1 games that played out like a constant tug-of-war, lasting much longer than NS2 rounds and having a smoother sense of progression. Everything was slower and more methodical, and victory was very rewarding. NS2 on the other hand is so much faster, more straight-forward and action-y, like it's trying to appeal to some other audience, yet the ones who really want to play this game are mostly NS1 veterans.
I know you guys spent a ton of time working on the alien commander, and it's a good system, but it just doesn't feel right to me. Yeah, we can all get used to this new system, and it's still an excellent game and I will certainly play the hell out of it anyway :), but I'm sure most of us will be reminiscing about NS the way it used to be--which wouldn't be easy to experience again today.
<!--quoteo(post=1918359:date=Mar 26 2012, 08:32 PM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ Mar 26 2012, 08:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918359"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I guess we can always have hope that someone will create a NS1 style mode for NS2 god knows it will probably be more popular then NS2 itself...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wow talk about having ZERO faith in the developers.
<!--quoteo(post=1918519:date=Mar 27 2012, 11:57 PM:name=Bio88)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bio88 @ Mar 27 2012, 11:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918519"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->wow talk about having ZERO faith in the developers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I have enough faith to buy the special edition and 2 consti donations..
Which is evidently more then you...
They are just making changes which do not need to be made, I seriously played NS1 for thousands of hours as did many other people it was almost a perfect game..
The changes now are dramatically changes parts of the game which have had millions of hours play testing by hundreds of thousands of people, you would be mad to throw away this...
NS1 reached about 300k players and the goal I'd imagine for NS2 is millions of players which will be quiet achievable given steam..
So even if NS2 game play is a carbon copy of NS1 it will be completely new and fresh for most players whilst keeping the old school players happy..
If people want silly new features like power nodes, no bile gorge and alien commanders they can make a mod for it..
<!--quoteo(post=1918566:date=Mar 27 2012, 11:28 AM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ Mar 27 2012, 11:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918566"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have enough faith to buy the special edition and 2 consti donations..
Which is evidently more then you...
They are just making changes which do not need to be made, I seriously played NS1 for thousands of hours as did many other people it was almost a perfect game..
The changes now are dramatically changes parts of the game which have had millions of hours play testing by hundreds of thousands of people, you would be mad to throw away this...
NS1 reached about 300k players and the goal I'd imagine for NS2 is millions of players which will be quiet achievable given steam..
So even if NS2 game play is a carbon copy of NS1 it will be completely new and fresh for most players whilst keeping the old school players happy..
If people want silly new features like power nodes, no bile gorge and alien commanders they can make a mod for it..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1918566:date=Mar 27 2012, 11:28 AM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ Mar 27 2012, 11:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918566"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have enough faith to buy the special edition and 2 consti donations..
Which is evidently more then you...
They are just making changes which do not need to be made, I seriously played NS1 for thousands of hours as did many other people it was almost a perfect game..
The changes now are dramatically changes parts of the game which have had millions of hours play testing by hundreds of thousands of people, you would be mad to throw away this...
NS1 reached about 300k players and the goal I'd imagine for NS2 is millions of players which will be quiet achievable given steam..
So even if NS2 game play is a carbon copy of NS1 it will be completely new and fresh for most players whilst keeping the old school players happy..
If people want silly new features like power nodes, no bile gorge and alien commanders they can make a mod for it..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not trying to be rude, i just don't understand at all. You are locking the developers in a creative box. You are telling them, don't inovate at all, just do a direct port of NS1 to NS2 with some fancy new graphics.
They are not "throwing away" millions of hours of play testing from NS1. I guarentee they using every drop of that knowledge and trying to apply it in such a way to make NS2 the best possible game they can.
I think it's funny how upset people get that changes are occurring. Did any of you play NS1 from beta 1.0 to 3.2? Huge differences in play style between the versions. One of the reasons the game stayed so fresh is you'd come back after 6 months to a new game.
Now you want them to just copy NS1 over as if they had perfected it? You're silly and need to let go of the past. I for one would like to counterpoint all that ###### with my own equally valid opinion....
The new changes are interesting and fun and I am excited to see where they lead. Carry on UWE.
<!--quoteo(post=1918596:date=Mar 27 2012, 12:20 PM:name=Tinker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tinker @ Mar 27 2012, 12:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918596"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The new changes are interesting and fun and I am excited to see where they lead. Carry on UWE.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1918496:date=Mar 27 2012, 11:17 AM:name=Jaunty)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jaunty @ Mar 27 2012, 11:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918496"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm sure there were balance issues in NS1, but I don't feel they were important enough to require such a huge mechanic being thrown in.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not sure if you saw this link that was posted on the Tweeter feed, but it has a lot of high level thoughts behind what kind of game we want NS2 to be and why some of these changes were made, including a bit about the gorge / alien commander changes. You may still disagree with the reasoning, but I just figured it may be of interest to you, in case you didn't get a chance to read the document yet.
<!--quoteo(post=1918601:date=Mar 27 2012, 03:30 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Mar 27 2012, 03:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918601"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not sure if you saw this link that was posted on the Tweeter feed, but it has a lot of high level thoughts behind what kind of game we want NS2 to be and why some of these changes were made, including a bit about the gorge / alien commander changes. You may still disagree with the reasoning, but I just figured it may be of interest to you, in case you didn't get a chance to read the document yet.
This is a very good read and i am so glad they came out with this. We can tailor our ideas with this in mind and know why some ideas are not even considered. Like statement is:
- Abilities don’t change depending on number of hives - Armor doesn’t change its effectiveness due to number of hives
<!--quoteo(post=1918566:date=Mar 27 2012, 03:28 PM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ Mar 27 2012, 03:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918566"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They are just making changes which do not need to be made, I seriously played NS1 for thousands of hours as did many other people it was almost a perfect game..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I wouldn't call it almost perfect, it had some serious issues that made public-play pretty crap (in the old days anyway). Sure many nostalgiac memories to be had, while the utter drivel of wasting an hour of a lost pub-game at the hands of an incompetent commanders and blind\deaf marines does not find itself a way into your memories. NS2 has (or I'd almost say, had) the chance to rectify some of that, but neglected to do so, and instead put in mind-boggling crap noone really asked for and which does not work. Oh well, bring on auto-downloading and let us steamroll over vanilla NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How many people are currently playing NS1?
That's why NS2 needs to be NS2, not NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Mod built on an already outdated engine, has after 10 years finally died out due to bad graphics\engine-quirks\repetition and no updates. Shocker. You must be pretty thick to think that is a valid reason to leave its gameplay-mechanics behind in pursuit of dumbed-down gameplay that won't last you half as long as NS1 did.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Bio88)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bio88)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They are not "throwing away" millions of hours of play testing from NS1. I guarentee they using every drop of that knowledge and trying to apply it in such a way to make NS2 the best possible game they can.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Put in multiple commanders, put in alien-commanders, make gorge useless, remove movement-mechanics, hive-lock lifeforms, try out slow-on-hit, CC at fixed positions, et cetera. Such descisions simply don't coincidence with what NS1 taught us. The rational explenation would be that the devs were genuinely crap at NS1, and were unable to see its strenghts.
<!--quoteo(post=1918566:date=Mar 27 2012, 10:28 AM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ Mar 27 2012, 10:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918566"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have enough faith to buy the special edition and 2 consti donations..
Which is evidently more then you...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It seems like every single day lately that I see someone on these forums making an appeal to seniority to shut down a new poster's argument. Give it a rest guys, this sort of attitude is poisonous to the community.
<!--quoteo(post=1918609:date=Mar 27 2012, 03:58 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Mar 27 2012, 03:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918609"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wouldn't call it almost perfect, it had some serious issues that made public-play pretty crap (in the old days anyway). Sure many nostalgiac memories to be had, while the utter drivel of wasting an hour of a lost pub-game at the hands of an incompetent commanders and blind\deaf marines does not find itself a way into your memories. NS2 has (or I'd almost say, had) the chance to rectify some of that, but neglected to do so, and instead put in mind-boggling crap noone really asked for and which does not work. Oh well, bring on auto-downloading and let us steamroll over vanilla NS2.
Mod built on an already outdated engine, has after 10 years finally died out due to bad graphics\engine-quirks\repetition and no updates. Shocker. You must be pretty thick to think that is a valid reason to leave its gameplay-mechanics behind in pursuit of dumbed-down gameplay that won't last you half as long as NS1 did.
Put in multiple commanders, put in alien-commanders, make gorge useless, remove movement-mechanics, hive-lock lifeforms, try out slow-on-hit, CC at fixed positions, et cetera. Such descisions simply don't coincidence with what NS1 taught us. The rational explenation would be that the devs were genuinely crap at NS1, and were unable to see its strenghts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1918610:date=Mar 28 2012, 03:59 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Mar 28 2012, 03:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918610"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It seems like every single day lately that I see someone on these forums making an appeal to seniority to shut down a new poster's argument. Give it a rest guys, this sort of attitude is poisonous to the community.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I didn't attack him because of his thoughts on the game in attacked him because he is calling out my support of the dev's even though I have supported this game since day 1 and made multiply $$ donations to the devs completely voluntarily..
I don't see how my attitude is poisonous my thoughts on the current state of the game are shared by the majority of NS1 players, if this is something the devs want to ignore fine but from my experiences ignoring your customers has never ended well..
<!--quoteo(post=1918609:date=Mar 27 2012, 12:58 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Mar 27 2012, 12:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918609"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Mod built on an already outdated engine, has after 10 years finally died out due to bad graphics\engine-quirks\repetition and no updates. Shocker. You must be pretty thick to think that is a valid reason to leave its gameplay-mechanics behind in pursuit of dumbed-down gameplay that won't last you half as long as NS1 did.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If NS2 were simply an NS1 clone then it would flat out fail. NS1 was a game designed for 10 years ago. Many core NS1 characteristics can (and have) be converted to NS2, but you must also allow room for innovation and change. Very few people would play an NS1 port with new graphics.
<!--quoteo(post=1918612:date=Mar 27 2012, 01:03 PM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ Mar 27 2012, 01:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918612"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->191 was the closest build to NS1 and from I can tell was the most actively played build even though 201 is far more polished..
All I see since NS2 has been released is each time some new idea for NS2 is bought back closer to what was in NS1 the game gets better..
I'm not saying don't make new things in NS2 what I am getting at there are some new changes which just do not work...
For instance power nodes do not make the game more fun or dynamic...
Removing bile bomb from the gorge was completely unnessacry...
Other aspects of ns2 are great things like infestation, flamers, armory etc...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
199-201 have had far more players than any build before it. When the gorilla trailor debuted on reddit there were about 10 US servers full during prime time. There weren't even 10 playable US servers in b191.
<!--quoteo(post=1918640:date=Mar 27 2012, 05:52 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Mar 27 2012, 05:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918640"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Very few people would play an NS1 port with new graphics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I guess we'll find out if UWE doesn't shape up.
<!--quoteo(post=1918640:date=Mar 28 2012, 04:52 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Mar 28 2012, 04:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918640"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If NS2 were simply an NS1 clone then it would flat out fail. NS1 was a game designed for 10 years ago. Many core NS1 characteristics can (and have) be converted to NS2, but you must also allow room for innovation and change. Very few people would play an NS1 port with new graphics.
199-201 have had far more players than any build before it. When the gorilla trailor debuted on reddit there were about 10 US servers full during prime time. There weren't even 10 playable US servers in b191.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No one is saying NS2 has to be exactly the same we are just saying don't break what worked in NS1 just for the sake of being different..
Wasnt Gorila 191ish? Either way that is the build I was referring to ever since that patch player numbers have diminished...
Ah, after reading the design manifesto, I understand that I should clarify my views as well. When I say I want it to be more like an rts, I mean I want it to like you are a single unit running around in starcraft. In turn, what this means is that I want the games to be longer and more meaningful, instead of Combat Only style upgrade your units, then mash your toys together for an "epic battle!"
<b>I think a lot of the reason NS1 was so compelling was because it engaged the player in a way that hadn't really been done before. (That I know of) It engaged players in a tense, psychological and emotional battle much akin to a suspenseful movie, that placed people in an ever shifting "Cat or mouse", "hunter vs hunted" kind of scenario.</b>
Marines knew that skulks were lurking around every corner, waiting to ambush them, and would jump at every sound. But this could quickly turn around due to one careless skulk, or one perceptive marine. It was all about a building of suspense leading to a climactic encounter with the aliens. The marines would cautiously move forward with a sense of fear building in them, enhanced by players being marked with parasites (confirming and amplifying their fear), until eventually, inevitably, there was a battle where the marines would finally get to shoot something and relieve their itchy trigger fingers and raw nerves.
On the flip side, aliens had to weigh map control and intel with setting up a good ambush. Therefore they had to balance stealth, in order to stay hidden and not become the hunted themselves, against map and resource control. They couldn't proceed to cautiously as this would give marines the overall RTS advantage, but they couldn't proceed to recklessly either, as they would lose the advantage of surprise. This usually resulted in having to set up quick ambushes and have one skulk be the bait to try and lure or mislead the marines into being attacked at the aliens advantage. And always in the back of the hunting skulks mind was how quickly he could be turned into the hunted.
========== I have no doubt that this was the most compelling aspect of the game, and also what most people experienced as obviously marines and skulks were what most players were most of the time. It's simply numbers, not everyone on the team could go gorge or commander, and everyone had to spend a significant amount of time starting as basic skulk and marines. From this starting point, NS1 developed into a more action oriented shooter for those skulks and marines, but the maps still left enough time for someone running all alone through a hallway to rethink the wisdom of his course as he heard clicking passing by him from the vents above and below.
==========
Now, I really like the later game in NS2 as well due to the high synergy among alien life forms, but I feel it's lacking this initial phase of awesomeness. The late game is satisfying to me because each lifeorm has an important roll to fill, and having a well rounded team can be essential. If the whole team goes Onos, they could be countered with one bad run in with jetpacks and heavy machine guns in an open space. However, if there are some gorges to heal, lerks to blind and damage the jetpackers, skulks to try and make it unsafe to land anywhere and fades to ninja around doing what fades do, the jetpackers would be in trouble. I feel this is a really fun aspect of NS2, and am excited to see how it progresses. However, my only gripe is that the fun "you be ripley I'll be the xenomorph" aspect of the game doesnt last long enough to set the mood and really draw players in.
Hopefully, that will be fixed with a bit slower resource and tech progression, and larger, more ventilated maps.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1918609:date=Mar 27 2012, 08:58 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Mar 27 2012, 08:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918609"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Put in multiple commanders, put in alien-commanders, make gorge useless, remove movement-mechanics, hive-lock lifeforms, try out slow-on-hit,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
a) multiple commanders are no longer in (this happened in <b>alpha </b>stages, didnt it??) b) there is only one alien commander and he's there for a damn good balance reason that's been explained many times c) gorge is not useless and is getting worked on constantly, we both know the devs have said this?? d) movement mechanics have NOT been removed? if anything they've gone to lengths to implement them (patch 199, anyone?) and are still doing so?? (schimmel even commented on intended skulk mechanic changes <b>yesterday </b>for christs sake??) e) lifeforms are no longer hive locked?? f) slow on hit was never implemented in the public betas, only internal builds so how is this even remotely a concern?
honestly, i don't understand inaccurate and erroneous criticism like this coming from people who are willingly participating in a game development process that the majority of the world never gets to see? You would have never known these steps taken to get to where they are now without pre ordering and yet still some of your guys' expectations are just impractical and unrealistic, and often bordering on entitlement. <u>You are so lucky to be given a chance to be a part of this process </u>and witness it, and most importantly help contribute / give feedback... but yet what i mostly see from those who have something to say is emotionally charged outbursts that the game isn't <b>exactly </b>what that individual wanted/expected (which by the way, rarely coincides with the next criticizing individual, let alone the masses who will buy it on steam) and then throw in something insulting to the devs.
Asking for some tact and appreciation would be asking for too much, i am sure.
<!--quoteo(post=1918661:date=Mar 27 2012, 06:42 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Mar 27 2012, 06:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918661"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->f) slow on hit was never implemented in the public betas, only internal builds so how is this even remotely a concern?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To be fair this actually did reach the public builds. It was quickly patched out within a week I believe however.
<!--quoteo(post=1918661:date=Mar 27 2012, 06:42 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Mar 27 2012, 06:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918661"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->a) multiple commanders are no longer in (this happened in <b>alpha </b>stages, didnt it??)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I know it it isn't in anymore, I brought it up to show a stunning lack of fore-thought on many gameplay-mechanics.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->b) there is only one alien commander and he's there for a damn good balance reason that's been explained many times<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I feel the balance-issue should've been handled differently. What's been done is rip out a defining element of NS1 and the alien-team in particular. The chemistry is different now, and it is not for the better.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->c) gorge is not useless and is getting worked on constantly, we both know the devs have said this??<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Compared to NS1, the current gorge is pathetic. No doubt it'll change, but we're 5-ish months away from release and key-roles (like the gorge) are still largely unwritten, and I fear the gorge is not going to be the fun mobile-healingstation\builder\infield-commander it used to be.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->d) movement mechanics have NOT been removed? if anything they've gone to lengths to implement them (patch 199, anyone?) and are still doing so?? (schimmel even commented on intended skulk mechanic changes <b>yesterday </b>for christs sake??)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yea, first say bunnyhopping will definitely not return, but proceed to not have a clue on how the new system is going to work exactly. That is a key critism, flushing things that played a large role in NS1 down the crapper, and have nothing else to show for it.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->e) lifeforms are no longer hive locked??<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> After suffering a barrage of grief they aren't, no. But the fact they were at some point speaks volumes about NOT having learned from NS1.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->f) slow on hit was never implemented in the public betas, only internal builds so how is this even remotely a concern?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It was, but again it tells you things about the devs. Bad things.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->honestly, i don't understand inaccurate and erroneous criticism like this coming from people who are willingly participating in a game development process that the majority of the world never gets to see? You would have never known these steps taken to get to where they are now without pre ordering and yet still some of your guys' expectations are just impractical and unrealistic, and often bordering on entitlement. <u>You are so lucky to be given a chance to be a part of this process </u>and witness it, and most importantly help contribute / give feedback... but yet what i mostly see from those who have something to say is emotionally charged outbursts that the game isn't <b>exactly </b>what that individual wanted/expected (which by the way, rarely coincides with the next criticizing individual, let alone the masses who will buy it on steam) and then throw in something insulting to the devs.
Asking for some tact and appreciation would be asking for too much, i am sure.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm sorry, but the whole "you're lucky to be part of it!" ######e never impressed me much. It is clear why they opened their development-process, and it wasn't out of altruism. But I give you credit for not uttering the phrase "it's a beta", which seems to be the general agreed-upon way of silencing critism (for the next 5 months away, after which I will be most curious what the new excuse is going to be, likely along the lines of "wait a few patches\it has just released\many people uncovered previously hidden issues" or something similarly hilarious).
everything he listed were the examples of failures, and their many more broken ideas still part of the current game. I said this before...they made simple things complicated, and fun things boring. And ignoring years of ground work and balance from NS1, in fact the way they built NS2, its like NS1 never existed.
The idea of this thread, and many more like it..."no one is saying NS2 has to be exactly the same we are just saying don't break what worked in NS1 just for the sake of being different.." This was nicely put, i thought it needed to be said again.
<!--quoteo(post=1918661:date=Mar 27 2012, 05:42 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Mar 27 2012, 05:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918661"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->a) multiple commanders are no longer in (this happened in <b>alpha </b>stages, didnt it??) b) there is only one alien commander and he's there for a damn good balance reason that's been explained many times c) gorge is not useless and is getting worked on constantly, we both know the devs have said this?? d) movement mechanics have NOT been removed? if anything they've gone to lengths to implement them (patch 199, anyone?) and are still doing so?? (schimmel even commented on intended skulk mechanic changes <b>yesterday </b>for christs sake??) e) lifeforms are no longer hive locked?? f) slow on hit was never implemented in the public betas, only internal builds so how is this even remotely a concern?
honestly, i don't understand inaccurate and erroneous criticism like this coming from people who are willingly participating in a game development process that the majority of the world never gets to see? You would have never known these steps taken to get to where they are now without pre ordering and yet still some of your guys' expectations are just impractical and unrealistic, and often bordering on entitlement. <b><u>You are so lucky to be given a chance to be a part of this process </u>and witness it</b>, and most importantly help contribute / give feedback... but yet what i mostly see from those who have something to say is emotionally charged outbursts that the game isn't <b>exactly </b>what that individual wanted/expected (which by the way, rarely coincides with the next criticizing individual, let alone the masses who will buy it on steam) and then throw in something insulting to the devs.
Asking for some tact and appreciation would be asking for too much, i am sure.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It isnt that they were fixed, but they were tried and reversed. The Devs threw in A LOT of change and are slowly rolling back everything.
To the bold: I think the devs are so lucky and blessed to have such a great community. Letting us in benefited them 100x more than it does us. We, the fans, have helped this game grow so much and helped prune it quite a bit. We are free labor... hell we PAYED to do the job of marketing and bug/balance/gameplay testing...
Player, dont forget Tazers :P edit* <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->no one is saying NS2 has to be exactly the same we are just saying don't break what worked in NS1 just for the sake of being different..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I like this as well.
Comments
Would really come down to whether you want the gorge to be an exclusively defensive field engineer, or one that is also capable of assisting his team on the offense (aside from his healing role) But they REALLY should make the division between the alien comm and the gorge very clear. Having them both build defenses ruins it for both the gorge and the commander imo, since neither of them can do it properly.
I gotta agree on the alien com being boring to play right now. I'll have my set of control groups for shade cloak up all the time and constantly expand, help direct aliens, but I play such an inactive roll compared to the marine com. I'd love to see support abilities on the alien team you can use anywhere on the map to help out your life forms like primal scream. Have it be an aoe effect, but make it cost pres like marine com so you really have to balance between cysting and using abilities to gain a combat advantage. Perhaps tie these abilities to different hive types.
Just because something is balanced doesn't mean its fun that imbalance itself creates a lot of the fun...
UNW really need to swallow their pride admit they have made a big mistake with the gorge/alien commander and go back to the NS1 setup... It's very odd to me they have changed a part of the game which people liked the most this is not a good way to attract new players...
I guess we can always have hope that someone will create a NS1 style mode for NS2 god knows it will probably be more popular then NS2 itself...
PS if i want to play a perfectly balanced game then I'll flip coins..
Actually, I feel the same way. It's a total pain in the ass to watch all my pres vanish to make cysts that idiots don't protect, then get out to take matters into my own hands and play a no-upgrades skulk for 10 minutes until we lose and start over. I used to do exactly what he's saying (alien comm, get out to lerk when I need to, get back in, trade off the commander role with other players) and it was way more fun. At the end of the day, whether I had fun or not is going to colour my opinion on the direction this game takes..
A lot of the changes being made will put NS2 in the same category as TF2 for me - a game with a ton of potential that I can only stand to play in a competitive scrim setting, because inexperienced/bad/griefing players run the show.
I'm convinced they'll figure something out, but I do think the way it currently works is bad for getting people to actually comm. I'm getting into more and more situations where noone wants to comm on publics and even gathers. If becoming commander is "taking one for the team", it has no place in a game that's supposed to be fun for everyone.
Some people have already stated some of the reasons for the addition of the alien Commander in this thread , and while it has certainly been a controversial issue with the NS1 crowd, we feel it was a necessary change to make. There is still quite a lot of new features left to do on the alien commander side as well.
I'd just say, keep playing and hopefully the changes will grow on you.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cory, thanks for the response. It's nice to hear from an actual team member about the game's development, and no matter what criticisms I may have, I really appreciate you guys for what you've created. As you said, the gorge is still being worked on extensively so it's hard for us to tell exactly how he'll turn out in the end, but with the alien commander around I don't see how the gorge could ever enjoy the level of utility he once had.
I'm sure there were balance issues in NS1, but I don't feel they were important enough to require such a huge mechanic being thrown in. I remember, more often than not, NS1 games that played out like a constant tug-of-war, lasting much longer than NS2 rounds and having a smoother sense of progression. Everything was slower and more methodical, and victory was very rewarding. NS2 on the other hand is so much faster, more straight-forward and action-y, like it's trying to appeal to some other audience, yet the ones who really want to play this game are mostly NS1 veterans.
I know you guys spent a ton of time working on the alien commander, and it's a good system, but it just doesn't feel right to me. Yeah, we can all get used to this new system, and it's still an excellent game and I will certainly play the hell out of it anyway :), but I'm sure most of us will be reminiscing about NS the way it used to be--which wouldn't be easy to experience again today.
wow talk about having ZERO faith in the developers.
/HL1 science-guy
I have enough faith to buy the special edition and 2 consti donations..
Which is evidently more then you...
They are just making changes which do not need to be made, I seriously played NS1 for thousands of hours as did many other people it was almost a perfect game..
The changes now are dramatically changes parts of the game which have had millions of hours play testing by hundreds of thousands of people, you would be mad to throw away this...
NS1 reached about 300k players and the goal I'd imagine for NS2 is millions of players which will be quiet achievable given steam..
So even if NS2 game play is a carbon copy of NS1 it will be completely new and fresh for most players whilst keeping the old school players happy..
If people want silly new features like power nodes, no bile gorge and alien commanders they can make a mod for it..
Which is evidently more then you...
They are just making changes which do not need to be made, I seriously played NS1 for thousands of hours as did many other people it was almost a perfect game..
The changes now are dramatically changes parts of the game which have had millions of hours play testing by hundreds of thousands of people, you would be mad to throw away this...
NS1 reached about 300k players and the goal I'd imagine for NS2 is millions of players which will be quiet achievable given steam..
So even if NS2 game play is a carbon copy of NS1 it will be completely new and fresh for most players whilst keeping the old school players happy..
If people want silly new features like power nodes, no bile gorge and alien commanders they can make a mod for it..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How many people are currently playing NS1?
That's why NS2 needs to be NS2, not NS1.
Which is evidently more then you...
They are just making changes which do not need to be made, I seriously played NS1 for thousands of hours as did many other people it was almost a perfect game..
The changes now are dramatically changes parts of the game which have had millions of hours play testing by hundreds of thousands of people, you would be mad to throw away this...
NS1 reached about 300k players and the goal I'd imagine for NS2 is millions of players which will be quiet achievable given steam..
So even if NS2 game play is a carbon copy of NS1 it will be completely new and fresh for most players whilst keeping the old school players happy..
If people want silly new features like power nodes, no bile gorge and alien commanders they can make a mod for it..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not trying to be rude, i just don't understand at all. You are locking the developers in a creative box. You are telling them, don't inovate at all, just do a direct port of NS1 to NS2 with some fancy new graphics.
They are not "throwing away" millions of hours of play testing from NS1. I guarentee they using every drop of that knowledge and trying to apply it in such a way to make NS2 the best possible game they can.
Now you want them to just copy NS1 over as if they had perfected it? You're silly and need to let go of the past. I for one would like to counterpoint all that ###### with my own equally valid opinion....
The new changes are interesting and fun and I am excited to see where they lead. Carry on UWE.
10000% agree
Not sure if you saw this link that was posted on the Tweeter feed, but it has a lot of high level thoughts behind what kind of game we want NS2 to be and why some of these changes were made, including a bit about the gorge / alien commander changes. You may still disagree with the reasoning, but I just figured it may be of interest to you, in case you didn't get a chance to read the document yet.
<a href="https://docs.google.com/a/unknownworlds.com/document/d/150pxFW1b_KqgdzIF4MNxO1xBA-jrndZZ9-d_Ez0L1js/edit" target="_blank">https://docs.google.com/a/unknownworlds.com...-d_Ez0L1js/edit</a>
--Cory
<a href="https://docs.google.com/a/unknownworlds.com/document/d/150pxFW1b_KqgdzIF4MNxO1xBA-jrndZZ9-d_Ez0L1js/edit" target="_blank">https://docs.google.com/a/unknownworlds.com...-d_Ez0L1js/edit</a>
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a very good read and i am so glad they came out with this. We can tailor our ideas with this in mind and know why some ideas are not even considered. Like statement is:
- Abilities don’t change depending on number of hives
- Armor doesn’t change its effectiveness due to number of hives
I see why but it was always an easy fix.
I wouldn't call it almost perfect, it had some serious issues that made public-play pretty crap (in the old days anyway). Sure many nostalgiac memories to be had, while the utter drivel of wasting an hour of a lost pub-game at the hands of an incompetent commanders and blind\deaf marines does not find itself a way into your memories. NS2 has (or I'd almost say, had) the chance to rectify some of that, but neglected to do so, and instead put in mind-boggling crap noone really asked for and which does not work. Oh well, bring on auto-downloading and let us steamroll over vanilla NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How many people are currently playing NS1?
That's why NS2 needs to be NS2, not NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mod built on an already outdated engine, has after 10 years finally died out due to bad graphics\engine-quirks\repetition and no updates. Shocker. You must be pretty thick to think that is a valid reason to leave its gameplay-mechanics behind in pursuit of dumbed-down gameplay that won't last you half as long as NS1 did.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Bio88)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bio88)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They are not "throwing away" millions of hours of play testing from NS1. I guarentee they using every drop of that knowledge and trying to apply it in such a way to make NS2 the best possible game they can.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Put in multiple commanders, put in alien-commanders, make gorge useless, remove movement-mechanics, hive-lock lifeforms, try out slow-on-hit, CC at fixed positions, et cetera. Such descisions simply don't coincidence with what NS1 taught us. The rational explenation would be that the devs were genuinely crap at NS1, and were unable to see its strenghts.
Which is evidently more then you...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It seems like every single day lately that I see someone on these forums making an appeal to seniority to shut down a new poster's argument. Give it a rest guys, this sort of attitude is poisonous to the community.
Mod built on an already outdated engine, has after 10 years finally died out due to bad graphics\engine-quirks\repetition and no updates. Shocker. You must be pretty thick to think that is a valid reason to leave its gameplay-mechanics behind in pursuit of dumbed-down gameplay that won't last you half as long as NS1 did.
Put in multiple commanders, put in alien-commanders, make gorge useless, remove movement-mechanics, hive-lock lifeforms, try out slow-on-hit, CC at fixed positions, et cetera. Such descisions simply don't coincidence with what NS1 taught us. The rational explenation would be that the devs were genuinely crap at NS1, and were unable to see its strenghts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS1:Spark ftw =)
All I see since NS2 has been released is each time some new idea for NS2 is bought back closer to what was in NS1 the game gets better..
I'm not saying don't make new things in NS2 what I am getting at there are some new changes which just do not work...
For instance power nodes do not make the game more fun or dynamic...
Removing bile bomb from the gorge was completely unnessacry...
Other aspects of ns2 are great things like infestation, flamers, armory etc...
I didn't attack him because of his thoughts on the game in attacked him because he is calling out my support of the dev's even though I have supported this game since day 1 and made multiply $$ donations to the devs completely voluntarily..
I don't see how my attitude is poisonous my thoughts on the current state of the game are shared by the majority of NS1 players, if this is something the devs want to ignore fine but from my experiences ignoring your customers has never ended well..
If NS2 were simply an NS1 clone then it would flat out fail. NS1 was a game designed for 10 years ago. Many core NS1 characteristics can (and have) be converted to NS2, but you must also allow room for innovation and change. Very few people would play an NS1 port with new graphics.
<!--quoteo(post=1918612:date=Mar 27 2012, 01:03 PM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ Mar 27 2012, 01:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918612"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->191 was the closest build to NS1 and from I can tell was the most actively played build even though 201 is far more polished..
All I see since NS2 has been released is each time some new idea for NS2 is bought back closer to what was in NS1 the game gets better..
I'm not saying don't make new things in NS2 what I am getting at there are some new changes which just do not work...
For instance power nodes do not make the game more fun or dynamic...
Removing bile bomb from the gorge was completely unnessacry...
Other aspects of ns2 are great things like infestation, flamers, armory etc...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
199-201 have had far more players than any build before it. When the gorilla trailor debuted on reddit there were about 10 US servers full during prime time. There weren't even 10 playable US servers in b191.
I guess we'll find out if UWE doesn't shape up.
Just out of curiousity.
what does "UWE shaping up" consist of?
199-201 have had far more players than any build before it. When the gorilla trailor debuted on reddit there were about 10 US servers full during prime time. There weren't even 10 playable US servers in b191.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No one is saying NS2 has to be exactly the same we are just saying don't break what worked in NS1 just for the sake of being different..
Wasnt Gorila 191ish? Either way that is the build I was referring to ever since that patch player numbers have diminished...
<b>I think a lot of the reason NS1 was so compelling was because it engaged the player in a way that hadn't really been done before. (That I know of) It engaged players in a tense, psychological and emotional battle much akin to a suspenseful movie, that placed people in an ever shifting "Cat or mouse", "hunter vs hunted" kind of scenario.</b>
Marines knew that skulks were lurking around every corner, waiting to ambush them, and would jump at every sound. But this could quickly turn around due to one careless skulk, or one perceptive marine. It was all about a building of suspense leading to a climactic encounter with the aliens. The marines would cautiously move forward with a sense of fear building in them, enhanced by players being marked with parasites (confirming and amplifying their fear), until eventually, inevitably, there was a battle where the marines would finally get to shoot something and relieve their itchy trigger fingers and raw nerves.
On the flip side, aliens had to weigh map control and intel with setting up a good ambush. Therefore they had to balance stealth, in order to stay hidden and not become the hunted themselves, against map and resource control. They couldn't proceed to cautiously as this would give marines the overall RTS advantage, but they couldn't proceed to recklessly either, as they would lose the advantage of surprise. This usually resulted in having to set up quick ambushes and have one skulk be the bait to try and lure or mislead the marines into being attacked at the aliens advantage. And always in the back of the hunting skulks mind was how quickly he could be turned into the hunted.
==========
I have no doubt that this was the most compelling aspect of the game, and also what most people experienced as obviously marines and skulks were what most players were most of the time. It's simply numbers, not everyone on the team could go gorge or commander, and everyone had to spend a significant amount of time starting as basic skulk and marines. From this starting point, NS1 developed into a more action oriented shooter for those skulks and marines, but the maps still left enough time for someone running all alone through a hallway to rethink the wisdom of his course as he heard clicking passing by him from the vents above and below.
==========
Now, I really like the later game in NS2 as well due to the high synergy among alien life forms, but I feel it's lacking this initial phase of awesomeness. The late game is satisfying to me because each lifeorm has an important roll to fill, and having a well rounded team can be essential. If the whole team goes Onos, they could be countered with one bad run in with jetpacks and heavy machine guns in an open space. However, if there are some gorges to heal, lerks to blind and damage the jetpackers, skulks to try and make it unsafe to land anywhere and fades to ninja around doing what fades do, the jetpackers would be in trouble. I feel this is a really fun aspect of NS2, and am excited to see how it progresses. However, my only gripe is that the fun "you be ripley I'll be the xenomorph" aspect of the game doesnt last long enough to set the mood and really draw players in.
Hopefully, that will be fixed with a bit slower resource and tech progression, and larger, more ventilated maps.
a) multiple commanders are no longer in (this happened in <b>alpha </b>stages, didnt it??)
b) there is only one alien commander and he's there for a damn good balance reason that's been explained many times
c) gorge is not useless and is getting worked on constantly, we both know the devs have said this??
d) movement mechanics have NOT been removed? if anything they've gone to lengths to implement them (patch 199, anyone?) and are still doing so?? (schimmel even commented on intended skulk mechanic changes <b>yesterday </b>for christs sake??)
e) lifeforms are no longer hive locked??
f) slow on hit was never implemented in the public betas, only internal builds so how is this even remotely a concern?
honestly, i don't understand inaccurate and erroneous criticism like this coming from people who are willingly participating in a game development process that the majority of the world never gets to see? You would have never known these steps taken to get to where they are now without pre ordering and yet still some of your guys' expectations are just impractical and unrealistic, and often bordering on entitlement.
<u>You are so lucky to be given a chance to be a part of this process </u>and witness it, and most importantly help contribute / give feedback... but yet what i mostly see from those who have something to say is emotionally charged outbursts that the game isn't <b>exactly </b>what that individual wanted/expected (which by the way, rarely coincides with the next criticizing individual, let alone the masses who will buy it on steam) and then throw in something insulting to the devs.
Asking for some tact and appreciation would be asking for too much, i am sure.
To be fair this actually did reach the public builds. It was quickly patched out within a week I believe however.
I know it it isn't in anymore, I brought it up to show a stunning lack of fore-thought on many gameplay-mechanics.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->b) there is only one alien commander and he's there for a damn good balance reason that's been explained many times<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I feel the balance-issue should've been handled differently. What's been done is rip out a defining element of NS1 and the alien-team in particular. The chemistry is different now, and it is not for the better.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->c) gorge is not useless and is getting worked on constantly, we both know the devs have said this??<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Compared to NS1, the current gorge is pathetic. No doubt it'll change, but we're 5-ish months away from release and key-roles (like the gorge) are still largely unwritten, and I fear the gorge is not going to be the fun mobile-healingstation\builder\infield-commander it used to be.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->d) movement mechanics have NOT been removed? if anything they've gone to lengths to implement them (patch 199, anyone?) and are still doing so?? (schimmel even commented on intended skulk mechanic changes <b>yesterday </b>for christs sake??)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea, first say bunnyhopping will definitely not return, but proceed to not have a clue on how the new system is going to work exactly. That is a key critism, flushing things that played a large role in NS1 down the crapper, and have nothing else to show for it.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->e) lifeforms are no longer hive locked??<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
After suffering a barrage of grief they aren't, no. But the fact they were at some point speaks volumes about NOT having learned from NS1.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->f) slow on hit was never implemented in the public betas, only internal builds so how is this even remotely a concern?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was, but again it tells you things about the devs. Bad things.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->honestly, i don't understand inaccurate and erroneous criticism like this coming from people who are willingly participating in a game development process that the majority of the world never gets to see? You would have never known these steps taken to get to where they are now without pre ordering and yet still some of your guys' expectations are just impractical and unrealistic, and often bordering on entitlement.
<u>You are so lucky to be given a chance to be a part of this process </u>and witness it, and most importantly help contribute / give feedback... but yet what i mostly see from those who have something to say is emotionally charged outbursts that the game isn't <b>exactly </b>what that individual wanted/expected (which by the way, rarely coincides with the next criticizing individual, let alone the masses who will buy it on steam) and then throw in something insulting to the devs.
Asking for some tact and appreciation would be asking for too much, i am sure.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry, but the whole "you're lucky to be part of it!" ######e never impressed me much. It is clear why they opened their development-process, and it wasn't out of altruism. But I give you credit for not uttering the phrase "it's a beta", which seems to be the general agreed-upon way of silencing critism (for the next 5 months away, after which I will be most curious what the new excuse is going to be, likely along the lines of "wait a few patches\it has just released\many people uncovered previously hidden issues" or something similarly hilarious).
everything he listed were the examples of failures, and their many more broken ideas still part of the current game. I said this before...they made simple things complicated, and fun things boring. And ignoring years of ground work and balance from NS1, in fact the way they built NS2, its like NS1 never existed.
The idea of this thread, and many more like it..."no one is saying NS2 has to be exactly the same we are just saying don't break what worked in NS1 just for the sake of being different.." This was nicely put, i thought it needed to be said again.
b) there is only one alien commander and he's there for a damn good balance reason that's been explained many times
c) gorge is not useless and is getting worked on constantly, we both know the devs have said this??
d) movement mechanics have NOT been removed? if anything they've gone to lengths to implement them (patch 199, anyone?) and are still doing so?? (schimmel even commented on intended skulk mechanic changes <b>yesterday </b>for christs sake??)
e) lifeforms are no longer hive locked??
f) slow on hit was never implemented in the public betas, only internal builds so how is this even remotely a concern?
honestly, i don't understand inaccurate and erroneous criticism like this coming from people who are willingly participating in a game development process that the majority of the world never gets to see? You would have never known these steps taken to get to where they are now without pre ordering and yet still some of your guys' expectations are just impractical and unrealistic, and often bordering on entitlement.
<b><u>You are so lucky to be given a chance to be a part of this process </u>and witness it</b>, and most importantly help contribute / give feedback... but yet what i mostly see from those who have something to say is emotionally charged outbursts that the game isn't <b>exactly </b>what that individual wanted/expected (which by the way, rarely coincides with the next criticizing individual, let alone the masses who will buy it on steam) and then throw in something insulting to the devs.
Asking for some tact and appreciation would be asking for too much, i am sure.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It isnt that they were fixed, but they were tried and reversed. The Devs threw in A LOT of change and are slowly rolling back everything.
To the bold: I think the devs are so lucky and blessed to have such a great community. Letting us in benefited them 100x more than it does us. We, the fans, have helped this game grow so much and helped prune it quite a bit. We are free labor... hell we PAYED to do the job of marketing and bug/balance/gameplay testing...
Player, dont forget Tazers :P
edit*
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->no one is saying NS2 has to be exactly the same we are just saying don't break what worked in NS1 just for the sake of being different..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like this as well.