Issues I have with aliens (old NS player here)
Jaunty
Join Date: 2012-03-26 Member: 149391Members
Join Date: 2012-03-26 Member: 149391Members
First of all, I loved Natural Selection 1 and really appreciate this team for creating it. I've played it since the first day it was released, then stopped once players started dwindling. Even if NS2 turned out to be terrible (which it won't) I'd still feel good knowing I invested some money toward this development team.
Just bought the game a few hours ago. Here are my thoughts so far (which have probably been addressed already, but I'd like to add my voice as well):
- I don't like the new gorge--at all. They used to be the brains behind every game, and it was incredibly fun to have your team depend on you to build structures. You could sneak into an area and put up a hive, build a wall of chambers to stop enemy progression, and if you needed an upgrade you didn't have to depend on a commander to get it done; you just built the required chamber. The NS1 gorge was probably my favorite thing about NS. I loved being able to turtle up anywhere and hide safely behind my structures. You could make little sanctuaries for you and your teammates, at least until marines got grenade launchers :P
Now...you get to heal people. And build hydras. And mini cysts. That's it. I realize the gorge can't have all that many functions because it will take the job of the alien commander, but then that brings me to my next issue:
- The alien commander. What was the reasoning behind adding this? Aliens were refreshing because of their independence. Compared to the marines they were much less structured and it was a great change of pace. Now, they're not so different from marines--having to depend on one person to get things built. I just don't understand the need for this addition, and it seriously ruins a lot of the fun for me.
What do you guys think? Do you miss the original alien team as well?
Just bought the game a few hours ago. Here are my thoughts so far (which have probably been addressed already, but I'd like to add my voice as well):
- I don't like the new gorge--at all. They used to be the brains behind every game, and it was incredibly fun to have your team depend on you to build structures. You could sneak into an area and put up a hive, build a wall of chambers to stop enemy progression, and if you needed an upgrade you didn't have to depend on a commander to get it done; you just built the required chamber. The NS1 gorge was probably my favorite thing about NS. I loved being able to turtle up anywhere and hide safely behind my structures. You could make little sanctuaries for you and your teammates, at least until marines got grenade launchers :P
Now...you get to heal people. And build hydras. And mini cysts. That's it. I realize the gorge can't have all that many functions because it will take the job of the alien commander, but then that brings me to my next issue:
- The alien commander. What was the reasoning behind adding this? Aliens were refreshing because of their independence. Compared to the marines they were much less structured and it was a great change of pace. Now, they're not so different from marines--having to depend on one person to get things built. I just don't understand the need for this addition, and it seriously ruins a lot of the fun for me.
What do you guys think? Do you miss the original alien team as well?
Comments
I'm sure you're not the only one missing the NS1 gameplay and sooner or later a NS1 mod will probably be released within NS2 (not made by UWE though).
I think the reason stated for this was balance. While totaly asymetrical teams are fun, in ns1 it was very hard to balance it. For example. in small games aliens where always one more on the field than marines. This didn't matter at all in big games. So for small games you had to compensate by making single marines stronger, which then created an imbalance in bigger games.
The alien commander is far from complete by the way. I really like the idea behind it, he is the meta game player that sets up the environment for the alien team. The marine commander does much more micro tasks, like medpacks etc.
And the gorge isn't finished at all either. I wouldn't worry too much for the moment.
People seem to have the most fun messing around as gorge, and it is surprisingly effective. Your a support role, you shouldn't be sitting in base after you've dropped your hydras, unless marines are barreling down your throat.
Alien commander really is required now. Consider everything he has to do now. Gotta constantly expand and fix cyst chain, keep catalyzing structures, keep shade cloak and make sure you hit important umbra timings. No way you could delegate gorge to base building again.
<!--quoteo(post=1918003:date=Mar 26 2012, 09:40 AM:name=Balderon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Balderon @ Mar 26 2012, 09:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918003"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 shouldn't be an NS1 remake with better graphics and a few new structures, for me it needs a new unique gameplay feeling and that is what NS2 is giving me right now.
I'm sure you're not the only one missing the NS1 gameplay and sooner or later a NS1 mod will probably be released within NS2 (not made by UWE though).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am sick of this. No one wants a brand new game. It is called Natural Selection TWO for a reason. It should take NS1, improve elements that were limited at the time by graphics or engine, add some new things, and improve balance where possible. Many will argue they have changed WAY too much and are slowly reverting back to the tried and true NS1 fomula.
I disagree.
If you didn't want a brand new game just make NS:SOURCE and your done.
I agree that NS2 should take all the good things from NS1 and build on them and I think that is exactly what UWE is doing.
So I was hoping for NS2 to scratch that itch I've needed scratching since NS1 was left behind, and to some extent it does, but so far the good additions seem fewer than the bad ones. It is a fun game--don't get me wrong--but it's got a ways to go. We'll see how the final release pans out.
I think that is what many people wanted NS2 to be.
If you didn't want a brand new game just make NS:SOURCE and your done.
I agree that NS2 should take all the good things from NS1 and build on them and I think that is exactly what UWE is doing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They have changed CORE mechanics and are now reeling to catch up. No sequal is successful changing too much... ever.
you described now indirectly iterative software developement. i guess this has been said multiple times, but i still repeat it here once more: You are seeing the game in a stage that usually only internal testers and developers would see. The positive aspect of this open development style is, that the community can directly influence the game and everyone of you does that ;)
I hear you Schim... Sewlek, i just get a little ticked off at the "This isnt NS1" comments, as if this game is a whole new title.
I understand the Alien Khamm decision, this is a major core mechanic change, but i understand it and am willing to deal (gorge going to crap, Alien khamm's actual role, and the new res system).
The DI is awesome, but i still dont understand why we need power nodes. I feel like marines are hindered too much with this power concept and it comes down to aesthetics over game play. DI is already area denial and the power node only adds a easy mechanic for the aliens to pervert.
The chamber system leave me feeling baffled. Make it so the Khamm can create the chambers that give the upgrades and the gorge drops the other ones. Having two chambers for one roll adds too much complication. I understand the reasoning but i think it wasnt well thought out, but a knee jerk fix.
And finally the res flow feels so much different. Aliens seem to have too much too quickly and marines not enough early game for proper pressure. Now this is only because Ranged weapons will always suffer more from performance issues and lag. So marines need to out tech the aliens asap. It also feels like the alien comm doesnt need to purchase anything before the 2nd hive. They can sit on res and build only rts and use their Pres for cysts. Alien's regen is insane even without DI or Regen to help out. In reference if aliens were played as marines we wouldnt need an armory, advanced armory, obs, turrets, mines, welders, or robo factory. Most of what i mentioned is purchased through Pres by the players and high tech unlocked with more hives. Gorges provide the Defense and healing without spending an ounce of Tres. So they can forgo the "arms lab'" or chambers to rush a second hive.
Marines have many steps. Aliens have 1 or 2. I think that is where the balance issue is coming in currently.
1. More symmetry means better balance, especially across different game sizes. Having a similar resource model for both teams means it can be balanced for both small games and large games, whereas NS1 was explicitly balanced only for small games.
2. Having a commander role on both teams means more players get the hang of it and are able to do the job, which means fewer games with no skilled commanders available.
3. Being able to play a combat role with no building responsibilities is much easier on new players, compared to the later versions of NS1 where every player is involved in the build order and is expected to tempgorge to build something at a specific time.
i guess when you have huge amount of player base complain about the same thing, and still things don't change....we should keep repeating to ourselves, its only a beta only a beta. Isn't this game suppose to come out THIS summer? we should start saying, "well, its only 1.0, only 1.0.
"It is called Natural Selection TWO for a reason. It should take NS1, improve elements that were limited at the time by graphics or engine, add some new things, and improve balance where possible. Many will argue they have changed WAY too much and are slowly reverting back to the tried and true NS1 fomula."
very well said!
i'm not saying NS1 was perfect game, but we should not ignore the ground work and years of balance it already created.
Now...you get to heal people. And build hydras. And mini cysts. That's it. I realize the gorge can't have all that many functions because it will take the job of the alien commander, but then that brings me to my next issue:
- The alien commander. What was the reasoning behind adding this? Aliens were refreshing because of their independence. Compared to the marines they were much less structured and it was a great change of pace. Now, they're not so different from marines--having to depend on one person to get things built. I just don't understand the need for this addition, and it seriously ruins a lot of the fun for me.
What do you guys think? Do you miss the original alien team as well?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Welcome Jaunty. The Gorge is currently still a work in progress, with more planned abilities and structures to build then what he currently has. One of which will be "Goo walls" which will allow him to create walls for him and other aliens to hide behind, and to slow down enemy progression. In the end he should have plenty to do, and while his role may be different from how he was in NS1, he should have plenty of stuff to do and be an important contributing member of the team.
Some people have already stated some of the reasons for the addition of the alien Commander in this thread , and while it has certainly been a controversial issue with the NS1 crowd, we feel it was a necessary change to make. There is still quite a lot of new features left to do on the alien commander side as well.
I'd just say, keep playing and hopefully the changes will grow on you.
--Cory
Just bought the game a few hours ago. Here are my thoughts so far (which have probably been addressed already, but I'd like to add my voice as well):
- I don't like the new gorge--at all. They used to be the brains behind every game, and it was incredibly fun to have your team depend on you to build structures. You could sneak into an area and put up a hive, build a wall of chambers to stop enemy progression, and if you needed an upgrade you didn't have to depend on a commander to get it done; you just built the required chamber. The NS1 gorge was probably my favorite thing about NS. I loved being able to turtle up anywhere and hide safely behind my structures. You could make little sanctuaries for you and your teammates, at least until marines got grenade launchers :P
Now...you get to heal people. And build hydras. And mini cysts. That's it.
What do you guys think? Do you miss the original alien team as well?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I fully agree; I made a similar thread about this a few weeks ago.
At the moment the Gorge kind of sucks, but as Cory said he's getting a couple of new things. Still, I think he should at LEAST be able to build Crags/Shades/Shifts, by the time the game comes out. As you (and others) pointed out, this is what made him so much fun in NS1 (and of course, the ability to build hives/res towers...but sadly I don't think he'll ever be able to do that again). Removing that from him takes away so much of the fun that he used to be.
The Gorge used to be the soul of the alien team, everyone tried to defend him and he did the "important" work. Now the alien commander does the "important" work, leaving only tiny bits to the gorge. Due to the weakness of hydras (ARCs, gls and even the normal lmg eat them for breakfast) and no offensive abilities at all an alien team simply does not need gorges currently.
Building offensive and defensive structures far away from the hive, hidden in a vent or somewhere unusual is what made the NS1 gorge so fun to play. Web was also hilarious sometimes, catching JP marines off track and making them drop into your OC wall... Oh and don't get me started on Lerklift.. :D
This will not change dramatically, since NS2 is close to being feature complete and they plan on releasing 1.0 this summer... - prob. Halloween.
But. I'm sure someone will make a "NS1 mod" once NS2 is stable... Should not be that hard to do after all: Remove Cysts, Remove alien commander, Add all structures to the Gorge (menu?). Give Gorges more res/tick, Rebalance a bit. Done.
I'm not sure if UWE would approve this though...
Something less radical I suggest for the NS2 gorge:
- dramatically improve usefulness of sliding on infestation (like twice the normal gorge speed, ~14) and sliding down ledges should give way more speed than it currently does
- add persistent cyst (6 pres, 3 times the health of a normal cyst) that is not damaged by a missing cyst chain but does not allow RT placement in return
- reduce hydra hitbox size by ~25% but keep the "box" shape, also increase health so it survives 2 ARC hits and 4 grenades without healing
- Gorges should get 25% more pres than normal
- introduce a mini-Shade for the Gorge, providing permanent cloaking for both players and structures in a small range but wears off instantly if you leave that range
- introduce a mini-Crag for the Gorge, healing 10+1%/tick for any number of structures/players in a small range
- Buff normal Shade/Crag (50% more hp, 20+2%/tick healing for the Crag) and increase their price to 15 tres
The normal Crag/Shade would not be redundant this way, since they provide certain extra abilities like babblers, umbra, cloaking beyond the range of the Shade and that ghostplayer Shade ability.
What do you guys think? Do you miss the original alien team as well?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Alien Commander was a necessary change. In NS1 I absolutely HATED it when you did not have enough players go Gorge at the beginning of the game to drop RTs. If not enough players would do it, the game would basically be over. Not to mention it's kind of silly to force players to go Gorge JUST to drop an RT.
... Due to the weakness of hydras (ARCs, gls and even the normal lmg eat them for breakfast) and no offensive abilities at all an alien team simply does not need gorges currently.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I completely agree with this.
So the fact that they gave more for the Alien Commander to do it has made it boring? You don't have to use Catalyze if you don't want to. You can still go Lerk and fly around "helping" your team.
Eagerly waiting for more abilities and structures for it though.
from the genuine OP, to the usual suspects getting a chance to sneak in their ounce of pessimism and reminiscing, to the devs assuring everyone that you are seeing a work in progress, yes believe it or not, all the way up until its released on steam.
you all know that you have the capability of making a mod for ns2 that could include the changes you want, anyways, (Which will be hysterical to see the different versions attempted by everyone as there are far too many chefs in the kitchen) so why don't you just focus on that instead of calling for changes that won't be implemented, and that not everybody wants?
No, they didn't give him more to do, they just made him have to spend his personal res so he CAN'T go lerk and fly around... unless u wanna gimp ur team by not supporting with infestation and drifters. I certainly hope it will be better later when more functionality is introduced, but at the moment I just explained why I really really keep away from alien commander if I can help it, because it's very boring to play imho, which is also the case for the gorge.
Just to note, those 18,000 people who brought the Beta are customers, they allowed all this development process to happen, yes they are seeing the inside not normally witnessed development aspect indeed. They are customers none the less. Charlie has stated it was too early to open beta but didnt really have any other choice at the time due to financial pressure....Schimmel, just be glad your selling non refundable open beta possible computer games because if it was pairs of shoes, you wouldn't likely have this job.
Sorry if that sounded harsh, I'm not trying to rearrange anyones thought patterns or even critizise, the customer/supplier relationship in this 'NS2 Market' is not your normal relationship because those 18,000 early beta customers are in a sense, non revenue gathering shareholders. For 18,000 people to believe in something that didnt exist then so strongly to actually pay money reads to me, alot like "angle investers." - its quite heart warming realy :)
Just to note, those 18,000 people who brought the Beta are customers, they allowed all this development process to happen, yes they are seeing the inside not normally witnessed development aspect indeed. They are customers none the less. Charlie has stated it was too early to open beta but didnt really have any other choice at the time due to financial pressure....Schimmel, just be glad your selling non refundable open beta possible computer games because if it was pairs of shoes, you wouldn't likely have this job.
Sorry if that sounded harsh, I'm not trying to rearrange anyones thought patterns or even critizise, the customer/supplier relationship in this 'NS2 Market' is not your normal relationship because those 18,000 early beta customers are in a sense, non revenue gathering shareholders. For 18,000 people to believe in something that didnt exist then so strongly to actually pay money reads to me, alot like "angle investers." - its quite heart warming realy :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We 18,000 are very acute =)
When the alien commander is expanded upon, and the gorge becomes fully and properly implemented, only then will we be able to properly assess this drastic design change. Hopefully they do succeed in creating a clear division of labour between the alien comm and gorge, rather than the vague one that is at risk of being created today. Personally I'd like to see the alien commander be kept clearly in charge of the establishment of map control, team 'tech', strategy and coordination with the Gorge being the 'field engineer' as you will (in charge of MAINTAINING that map control through defenses, heals, etc) A building like the whip is already pushing this boundary a little IMO, though that's largely because it has no clear cut role, and it really fails in acting like some sort of alien siege weapon. (Currently it's just another piss poor defense investment to waste team res on)
NS2 is a great game, not NS 1 great yet, but there's a clear trend towards it becoming just as great in the future.