<!--quoteo(post=1907618:date=Feb 27 2012, 06:59 PM:name=2sBlind)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (2sBlind @ Feb 27 2012, 06:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1907618"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I too liked the old gas model. Would be fun to try out ranged spores and bite.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's worth a try at least imo, (it <i>has</i> worked for years.. nothing wrong with trying it out in NS2 at least, it's beta after all:P)
I like the new gas. It is far better for providing cover in a fight. Much more exciting.
and the latest gas effects...gorgeous.
But it is a sacrificial move usually.
I think it might benefit from a larger radius to cover more area. and also a leading plume so the lerk itself is covered by the gas. Like the lerk was belching the gas far in front of him and it covered him.
This would not prevent marines from stepping to the side and shooting. But it would make it two steps instead of one. And the shooting would be more estimated (because of the gas).
As far as the flight .. I really like how the flight model has progressed. But i can't help thinking it should just fly...and we should just steer. A flap to initiate flight. The focus would be on steering and momentum. Any additional flaps would be a slight speed boost. I think we would see more complex flight patterns if everyone didn't do the flap hold flap hold.
If we get nothing they should lower the cost or he will just randomly get played. I'm saving my 30 bucks for the pricier shinier fade.
It's nice to see so many people agreeing on the need for ranged spores. Hopefully someone notices and we at least get something inspired by that in a patch before release.
<!--quoteo(post=1907492:date=Feb 27 2012, 12:30 PM:name=Flounder)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flounder @ Feb 27 2012, 12:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1907492"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Spikes are just so useless. Any 0 res lmg will win vs 30 res lerk in a long range fight. Ditch the spikes and give him his bite back and try it for a build or two. Just try it. It's beta.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The shotgun spike is like a bite (in fact it's better because you can use it outside melee range). The problem is that the rest of the situation of "lerk biting marine" is very different from NS1, so just adding the bite (or using the shotgun like a bite) doesn't make the class start working. Shotguns are still too powerful, and spores are still unable to synergize with your primary attack (because you use both from the same range). Additionally, the flight speed cap is too low, which means that you can't leave "high damage LMG range" quickly enough.
<!--quoteo(post=1907533:date=Feb 27 2012, 01:53 PM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Feb 27 2012, 01:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1907533"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe there should be a ranged gas which is weaker then the normal gas. But it would be nice to harass and keep the marines from camping positions all the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Since the lerk gets nothing at hives 2 and 3, this might be a nice easy way to add *something* It would be nice to see some gases that are tied to the hive type, too. Like 'shade gas' deafens people in an area, 'crag gas' works like umbra etc.
<!--quoteo(post=1907621:date=Feb 27 2012, 07:04 PM:name=Bicsum)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bicsum @ Feb 27 2012, 07:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1907621"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like the current gas model, but the lerk needs a little more armor and another useful ability for the late game
I guess the lerk will get some love eventually.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What if you could improve the lerk without adding armor (a mechanic that requires no skill-indexed player input to become useful), and instead by changing how spores work (and offering more potential for more player input, by aiming them at range)?
They tried the 'armor' solution already. It was called hide, and it made the class stupidly powerful against the things it's already good against. It didn't address any of the real problems with the class. Because it created a way to rush down the command chair, it was removed (which puts us back to where we started, sadly).
It's wierd to see people calling for ranged lerk spores, when just a few builds ago, we had people bashing ranged spores and calling for vapor trail spores.
Ranged spores are meant to fill a specific role that trailed ones lack: suppression and area denial. The ability to bomb a hallway with smoke to keep marines from advancing without having to worry about any one of them simply clicking on you once is a powerful lerk ability, and its loss has significantly weakened the class.
Cropduster spores have an important feature too, and one that ranged spores can only approximate at best. Spores are great for blocking vision, and the ability to trail gas to cover your escape is a powerful (and fun) mechanic as lerk.
My vote? Alt-fire is always cropduster spores, but lerk can get ranged spores as an extra attack mode, as the skulk gets parasite and the gorge gets build. (possibly at 2nd hive).
<!--quoteo(post=1907690:date=Feb 27 2012, 10:23 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 27 2012, 10:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1907690"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's wierd to see people calling for ranged lerk spores, when just a few builds ago, we had people bashing ranged spores and calling for vapor trail spores.
Ranged spores are meant to fill a specific role that trailed ones lack: suppression and area denial. The ability to bomb a hallway with smoke to keep marines from advancing without having to worry about any one of them simply clicking on you once is a powerful lerk ability, and its loss has significantly weakened the class.
Cropduster spores have an important feature too, and one that ranged spores can only approximate at best. Spores are great for blocking vision, and the ability to trail gas to cover your escape is a powerful (and fun) mechanic as lerk.
My vote? Alt-fire is always cropduster spores, but lerk can get ranged spores as an extra attack mode, as the skulk gets parasite and the gorge gets build. (possibly at 2nd hive).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The game has changed a lot since those times. I myself never asked for a lerk change, I actually enjoyed the old gas spore, but any change is always good to see how it plays out. I just believe the Lerk should be more of a ranged class that is a glass cannon. I have seen a few decent Lerks, but most of the time they're decent because of the support that comes with them, like friends playing as Gorges and Fades going in to take the heat over the Lerk.
Giving the Spores attack back, would make the Aliens a lot more interesting in terms of how to take rooms back, rather than a chem trail where the Lerk literally has to fly through and in circles around Marines in their line of sight. I am sure with more tweaks and alterations, something balanced, interesting and fun could come out of the Lerk class. I think people are right though, bring back the bite, remove the sniper shots and gas spores, this way the gas is used for cover and won't kill the marines instantly, but if he wants the full kill, he has to scoop down and bite on the marine that he thinks is the weakest during that time. I guess only time will tell :)
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited February 2012
let me just make a list here to keep it focused - for those that agree with some of the points brought up - feel free to add to it. (OP, feel free to update 1st post) :
<ul><li>crop dusting effect for spores (they fall to the ground)</li><li>possibly larger spread for spores</li><li>Umbra, using a leading plume so the lerk itself is covered by the gas.</li><li>more accurate / useful spikes. (I like that the distance/dmg encourages close combat, but those spikes seem somewhat unreliable, there is room here for innovation)</li><li>either have a protected/ armored underbelly, or adjust shotgun dmg vs lerk (esp in regards to distance)</li><li>Or reduce the cost of the lerk to 20ish.</li><li>anything else?</li></ul>
_______________________________________________________________________ edit: additions <!--quoteo(post=1907672:date=Feb 27 2012, 05:12 PM:name=kingmob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kingmob @ Feb 27 2012, 05:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1907672"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and also a leading plume so the lerk itself is covered by the gas. Like the lerk was belching the gas far in front of him and it covered him.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> which means that primary attack and spores should both share the same energy, so that you are not OP by protecting yourself while attacking, you must spray then come back to clean up in the chaos or just be a support element. etc
The proper way to reduce shotgun effectiveness against lerks is to add a damage falloff mechanic like in TF2. Oh, and adjust research times so marines can't have shotguns before aliens can have lerks (owing to the lack of RFK).
I just got sniped for 60 damage across the entire length of 'flight control' on ns_summit and it was really stupid! At that range I'd be lucky to have one spike from a shotgun-spike hit a marine, and it would do about as much damage as a parasite, if not less.
Another silly/weird thing is how little lerks can take advantage of shade. Not sure what to say beyond that it's sad.
maybe just a second hive upgrade that is like projectile spore but does 0 dmg but severely reduces vision for marines. maybe make the marines in the cloud appear momentarily parasited, like when they are on gestation.
also, lerk spore as is should def drop to the ground.... flying into marines and then getting stuck on something = death.. or one shot with a shotgun from a well-aimed marine = death
if lerks had a movement skill that allowed a rapid change of direction at the cost of altitude or speed, it would make surviving while spore-trailing much less painful.
- An attack where the Lerk can grab a marine by the shoulders and fling him to the ground (similar to how a lot of avian predators function: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-ibdPMGC1Y)" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-ibdPMGC1Y)</a>. This would cause stun similar to Onos.
- An attack where the Lerk can drop an acid/bile bomb as it flies overhead, that could cause area damage against multiple marines. Optionally could also leave a puddle of bile on the floor for x seconds which would cause armor damage to marines.
- The Lerk could build a nest structure somewhere on the map that could be used for healing of any Lerk lifeform when a Lerk is within x feet of the nest. Nests wouldn't need to be connected to cyst/infestation.
Those ideas are all stolen from the other alien classes. Like you mentioned, knockdown is an onos mechanic. Area damage is a gorge mechanic. Building and healing are gorge mechanics.
The lerk mechanics are flight and gas clouds. They just don't seem that exciting because they're weak right now.
<!--quoteo(post=1907742:date=Feb 28 2012, 04:38 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Feb 28 2012, 04:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1907742"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The lerk mechanics are flight and gas clouds. They just don't seem that exciting because they're weak right now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not very experienced myself with playing lerk so i don't want to sound like im saying the lerk is fine, but just wanted to throw out the idea that maybe lerk mobility allows the lerk to instead be very good at harassing, flanking, RT sniping and overall map control. I've been learning/trying a new style of lerk play where you play super conservative and just go for all of the above and it seems to work very well, especially with two lerks working together not so much to deny area with gas, but to outposition marines and kill them fast with spikes. You can really control the early to mid game with lerk pairs that flank with shotgun spikes, snipe from beyond shotgun range, and don't suicidally engage for example by flying in and laying down huge trails of gas for no reason.
Again, as a non-lerk player i could very well be missing something but it feels that even though the lerk does play alot more timid now, it might not be such a bad thing.
I really enjoy the lerk but the only way I've been able to be effective with him is by keeping distance and usually only attacking when other skulks are attacking. I usually rack up the kills this way but I'm probably stealing some kills that skulks would have made anyway.
Right now it's a huge gamble to get in close to marines as you can die instantly if they have shotguns. And for what? So you can lay down a field of gas so small that a marines can sidestep a foot or two and they're out of it. The risk/reward doesn't add up. So is the solution to make the lerk more resistant to damage? If so then he'll be even harder to kill long range.
Really the thing that is killing the close range viability of this class is how prevalent shotguns are right now. Maybe the cost of upgrading to them needs to be increased significantly so that it is seen as a big tradeoff to the commander. It used to be that the early "shotgun rush" was a specific strategy that had a big tradeoff in resources lost. If you could take down a hive doing it then it was worth the resources. If you failed it was a big set back. The only other reason for shotguns was to counter fades, but that was only well into the middle of the game. By that point the lerk should have a 2nd hive ability that helps keep him relevant.
The best solution for the spores is to give them the speed of the lerk when they come out, and a bit of gravity and friction.
Then you could flight toward a marine and start sporing, then quickly turn back and stop sporing. The spore cloud would continue toward the marine, expanding and slowing down. It would work a bit like the mutalisk attack in starcraft.
With low friction it would be a real ranged weapon, high friction would make it more melee. The current one correspond to very high friction and no gravity.
For me the crop dusting spores was one of my favourite patches. It's considerably more fun to do as an alien and less frustrating as a Marine. I used to be in the camp for falling spores but that would take away the skill required to lerk. In addition, Marines can choose whether to run through the spores or wait it out crouched, that's an interesting decision with important consequences.
From a pub game perspective, being a good lerk can really be bad for your place on the scoreboard, and whilst I hate to admit it it I think that causes people to use spikes when gas is much more useful. Lerk gas can hold off a Marine rush for as long as a minute, and pretty much trebles the effectiveness of skulks - but the COD era means we (even me sometimes) try to get the kill ourselves. Perhaps people would focus on gas if alien kills within the spores give assist points to the lerk?
<!--quoteo(post=1907816:date=Feb 28 2012, 12:59 PM:name=ubikjam)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ubikjam @ Feb 28 2012, 12:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1907816"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For me the crop dusting spores was one of my favourite patches. It's considerably more fun to do as an alien and less frustrating as a Marine. I used to be in the camp for falling spores but that would take away the skill required to lerk. In addition, Marines can choose whether to run through the spores or wait it out crouched, that's an interesting decision with important consequences.
From a pub game perspective, being a good lerk can really be bad for your place on the scoreboard, and whilst I hate to admit it it I think that causes people to use spikes when gas is much more useful. Lerk gas can hold off a Marine rush for as long as a minute, and pretty much trebles the effectiveness of skulks - but the COD era means we (even me sometimes) try to get the kill ourselves. Perhaps people would focus on gas if alien kills within the spores give assist points to the lerk?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^This! The spores as they are now require much more skill than simply shooting them. The only problem is the unbalanced shotgun. A thing that cost so little res should in no way one-hit-kill a 30res life form. It shouldn't even possible to one-hit-kill skulks, because its frustrating as skulk and makes teamplay for this marines obsolete until fades are coming up.
Whilst I didnt give it much thought, now it has been mentioned I agree that the Lerk' main ability puts it in the firing line with early shotgunners. I do like the current gas feature and agree with a few others in this thread about buffing this in some way to increase the reward and thus bring it into balance it with the risk.
The gas is a really good feature used well, I've rembered a few games as marine where a group of us are just about to be put under attack in a room, when a lerk comes in and fills it with gas. Your next reaction is *gulp* - i'm feeling quite vunerable now. Probably because it temporarily takes away the marines range. Don't deny aliens this, if anything improve it!
<!--quoteo(post=1907742:date=Feb 28 2012, 01:38 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Feb 28 2012, 01:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1907742"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Those ideas are all stolen from the other alien classes. Like you mentioned, knockdown is an onos mechanic. Area damage is a gorge mechanic. Building and healing are gorge mechanics.
The lerk mechanics are flight and gas clouds. They just don't seem that exciting because they're weak right now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess for me, I would just like to see the lerk re-purposed. I've played builds where both the lerk gas, armor and spikes have been both over powered and underpowered, neither of which players seemed pleased with.
Do we know if UWE is happy with the current state of the lerk? In older builds they used to frequently make a lot of balance changes to the lerk but recently there haven't been many changes. Perhaps they've realized through all of the testing and balancing, this is the best it will get with the current mechanics?
<!--quoteo(post=1907742:date=Feb 28 2012, 01:38 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Feb 28 2012, 01:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1907742"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Those ideas are all stolen from the other alien classes. Like you mentioned, knockdown is an onos mechanic. Area damage is a gorge mechanic. Building and healing are gorge mechanics.
The lerk mechanics are flight and gas clouds. They just don't seem that exciting because they're weak right now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, it's true, some of these ideas are borrowed from other classes, much the same way the fade melee attack and the onos melee attack are borrowed versions of the skulk's melee attack.
Either way, I've had some time to think of some further refinements to these suggestions. Bear in mind, that UWE may or may not already be satisfied with the Lerk's current form/abilities, but if they are looking for some new ideas/suggestions, I am more than happy to help suggest some new things.
I am also hoping for UWE to do a total lerk re-spec/re-purpose as opposed to a just tweaking the lerk's numbers back and fourth.
So anyways, here's some of my refined suggestions for new abilities:
<u><b>Claw Grab</b></u> Level 1 Ability - When flying over a marine, if close enough, the Lerk can dig his claws into a marine's shoulders and carry him off for x seconds. This ability can be used to carry a marine away from his squad and into the vicinity of a nearby skulk or a whip who can then finish him off as he tries to recover.
<u><b>Lerk Nest</b></u> Level 1 Ability - The Lerk has the ability to build a Lerk nest anywhere in the map for x amount of personal resources. Each Lerk can only build 1 nest at a time. The nest will output an umbra cloud/atmosphere where it is built, providing umbra bonuses for x feet from the Lerk nest. In most cases, this umbra could cover a good portion of a room/hallway. The Lerk nest can be used strategically for either offense or a tactical defense, or even as a marine psyche-out decoy for the alien's 2nd hive. The nest will only have a certain amount of umbra gas that can be outputted before it runs out and the Lerk will need to return to the nest to replenish the umbra.
<u><b>Acid Rain</b></u> Level 3 Ability - The Acid Rain allows the Lerk to excrete an acid rain down onto marines, damaging both armor and health. Some other differences between Acid Rain and Gas: - Acid Rain has a way shorter output duration than gas for the same energy cost (or perhaps more) - Acid Rain does not provide any vision disabilities to marines. - Being a level 3 ability, Acid Rain would be more physically damaging to marines than gas, similar to the damage rates we saw when gas was first power-buffed, ages ago.
<!--quoteo(post=1907681:date=Feb 28 2012, 02:41 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Feb 28 2012, 02:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1907681"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What if you could improve the lerk without adding armor (a mechanic that requires no skill-indexed player input to become useful), and instead by changing how spores work (and offering more potential for more player input, by aiming them at range)?
They tried the 'armor' solution already. It was called hide, and it made the class stupidly powerful against the things it's already good against. It didn't address any of the real problems with the class. Because it created a way to rush down the command chair, it was removed (which puts us back to where we started, sadly).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The thing is that spamming spores and spikes from another room isn't that much fun for both sides (well, at least for me it isn't), and i like the way that you have to actively engage marines to be at your maximum potential. Yes, the lerk is supposed to be a ranged class, but it should still be a hybrid to some extent.
I guess you are right about the armor being a poor solution, but the shotgun is taking down the lerk a little too fast. LMG vs lerk seems balanced though. Increasing armor from 30 (60) to 40 (80) might help a little. You still go down fast if you eat the whole shot (as it should be), but near misses would less likely bring you in danger.
In some other topic someone mentioned a head butt ability, not losing momentum when you get the kill. Just imagine it. Spore a group of marines and play bowling =).
If the Lerk is meant to be a ranged fighter, it needs a powerful and versatile ranged arsenal. Weak spike-attacks won't cut it.
If the Lerk is meant to fight in close-combat, he needs to be much more durable. Specifically, a 30res Lerk should be about as tough for a 20res Shotgun to kill as a 40res Fade is for a 30res Flamethrower to kill: quite difficult alone, but enough to force it to leave the fight quickly when other marines are around.
If the Lerk isn't meant to be a combatant at all, he needs more support powers to give him gameplay options. The only thing lerks can do to support is gas; if that doesn't work, or if that's already been done, then they're just twiddling their wings.
Making the Lerk a little bit of close-combat, a little bit of range, and a little bit of supports means that there's a marine that can beat him in every situation, and for the amount of res he costs, that just isn't right.
I really really like the idea of expanding the spore cloud size. Currently it only fills about half a normal hallway which mean that there is always a place for the marines to get out of the cloud. In a room the trail is tiny compared to the size of the room so the Lerk cannot effectively deny map space with it. Increasing the size of the trail to FILL A NORMAL HALLWAY (about 2x what it is now) Does several things... THe lerk can fly over the Rines heads to spore and still hit them w/o running into them AND better fill rooms for the rest of the team. The Lerk would still be in danger of being ShotGunned but at least it would not have the fear of running into a marine and dropping to a stop at its feet. The cloud wouldnt need to reach all the way to the floor. Just to the waists of the rines would be enough since then the blinding effect would stilll be in place.
(Personally, I love watching skulks rush in under the gas but not in it.) I think that this would make the cloud much more usable in its current form. You still have to get in close but at least the effects might be more worth it. An Upgrade to damage would help to. Exo could ignore this damage due to filters like in NS1.
I deny that teh TSA would be unfairly targeted in a hallway since they cannot get out of the cloud- They are in a hallway and should be able to shoot it down fairly easily. They isnt any room for the Lerk to manuver to get away. If they are letting it get that close- they can deal with it.
I think the biggest problem is that the lerk is supposed to be the spearhead of a rush into rooms that are guarded by marines. In these cases the marines usually know where ###### is coming from so they gonna cover all the entrances making quick work of any lerk who dares to lay a spore trail for skulks.
A good way to counter that and to promote spore usage (without resorting to projectiles) would be to make the lerk engulfed in a bigger spore cloud around and infront of him while using spores.
The cloud would move with the lerk and completly engulf him, it disappears instantly when he stops using the spores. Make the damage on the cloud low so people don't just abuse it to smoke up complete rooms and gas marines in masses. That way a lerk could cover a full corridor with spores moving torwards marines without giving them himself as a clear target.
Or maybe add it as some kind of alternate fire that uses up extra energy, lots of options around that idea.
<!--quoteo(post=1907751:date=Feb 28 2012, 02:00 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Feb 28 2012, 02:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1907751"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->style of lerk play where you play super conservative and just go for all of the above<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, this is something you can do, but skulks are actually better at it because: <ul><li>they can deal damage for longer without running out of adrenaline</li><li>they deal damage faster</li><li>they can escape more quickly using walljumps/wallruns/leap, than a lerk that is sitting still up close to a structure and has to pick up speed to escape (while dying)</li><li>skulks don't cost res on top of all that!</li></ul>
The lerk *should* be better at combat in some ways, than the other lifeforms, but it isn't because of a large number of design flaws. You shouldn't have to play a lifeform like the lerk in a really polarized, uninvolved way.
<!--quoteo(post=1907827:date=Feb 28 2012, 08:19 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Feb 28 2012, 08:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1907827"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->^This! The spores as they are now require much more skill than simply shooting them. The only problem is the unbalanced shotgun. A thing that cost so little res should in no way one-hit-kill a 30res life form. It shouldn't even possible to one-hit-kill skulks, because its frustrating as skulk and makes teamplay for this marines obsolete until fades are coming up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I addressed this several times in my lerk thread, but I'll do it again here because I can.
The spores as they are do not "require more skill" than the long-ranged projectile version. There is less player input involved in "how you use spores", and there is less room for creativity. Less room to develop a skill and match it against opponents. If we had projectile spores, you could still use them like the 'crop duster' version (by aiming at floors/close walls), but you wouldn't ONLY be able to use it that way.
Please don't confuse luck with skill. Crop duster spores require luck - the marines being gassed have to fail at shooting a point blank lerk who isn't really threatening them. If they don't, you die and come back to this thread to air your grievance. When you use cropduster spores, the ball is in the marines' court - they can decide to kill you or not. When you use projectile spores, both players get to have input that matters. Lerks aim creatively and set up the situations they want, while marines move and predict gas targets to react to the lerk.
The reason you think the shotgun is unbalanced is because all your tools as a lerk force you to fly into shotgun range and dump 30 pres in the nearest garbage can. The shotgun itself is mostly fine, and it's implemented very similarly to how it was in NS1 (where it was a good counter to lerks, but didn't totally neuter them by its presence).
The shotgun doesn't cost "so little res" either - it costs 2/3 of what a lerk does, but the marine still behaves like a marine except for having a shotgun. He doesn't get to fly or do any of the things that your 30 res buys when you change from another lifeform to the lerk. Like I said above, the lerk has very unique and interesting mechanics - they just feel so weak right now that it's hard for people to visualize how the class *should* work.
I strongly encourage anyone interested in this to go play some lerk in NS1. You'll either understand where some of us are coming from, or be more informed to argue the either side.
One thing that annoys me when I play Lerk is that when you use Spikes your energy gets drained pretty fast. So you're either actively harassing with Spikes or hiding around a corner somewhere conserving energy so you can do Gas runs (they both eat your energy up pretty quickly). You really can't effectively engage with both...and if you were Spiking something to begin with and you see an opportunity to Gas (say a marine or two comes running to defend the RT) you are forced to run away to regenerate enough energy to use the gas....and by that time the marines are likely already aware of you and watching for your return.
I don't know if that's how the lerk was balanced to be, so that you can only harass with one or the other, but it feels pretty constraining and it's sometimes frustrating. TBH I think the lerk would be a lot more fun/ effective if the Spikes were like the skulk bite and did not actively drain your adrenaline when using them.
<!--quoteo(post=1908040:date=Feb 28 2012, 09:19 PM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Feb 28 2012, 09:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908040"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know if that's how the lerk was balanced to be<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not. The adrenaline cost of spikes was raised in a knee-jerk reaction to lerk rushes killing command chairs early in the game. It didn't solve that problem, since you can still do that just as easily with enough teammates involved.
I've posted a few times about this and 1 more can't hurt. Lerks used to work as a lower damage ranged harrassment lifeform that would have to make the most out of the flight model and get in close to deal real damage. Right now they are a low damage close range harrassment lifeform that have a worthless secondary attack. I say that spikes are worthless because they are weak, and don't work well with the flight model. This forces the lerk to move around slowly to aim them, and even then they are pretty weak and inaccurate, and marines can straight up outdamage the lerks at range because of it.
Having to get in closer to spore is an alright idea and it's a change that I can understand and learn to live with, but spikes are just bad and need to be scrapped or drastically changed.
If you want lerks to be a ranged support class than either give them better support tools that they can use at range without having to get gibbed by marines. If you want lerks to be close range fighters than give them a higher damage close range attack.
Having lerks with 2 lower damage attacks, only one of which works well with the flight model, and low health makes them ineffective throughout the game and not even worth playing which makes me post endless posts about them because they have been the best part of the game for me since ns1 3.0, and currently they are not fun or interesting to play.
Comments
It's worth a try at least imo, (it <i>has</i> worked for years.. nothing wrong with trying it out in NS2 at least, it's beta after all:P)
It is far better for providing cover in a fight.
Much more exciting.
and the latest gas effects...gorgeous.
But it is a sacrificial move usually.
I think it might benefit from a larger radius to cover more area.
and also a leading plume so the lerk itself is covered by the gas.
Like the lerk was belching the gas far in front of him and it covered him.
This would not prevent marines from stepping to the side and shooting.
But it would make it two steps instead of one.
And the shooting would be more estimated (because of the gas).
As far as the flight ..
I really like how the flight model has progressed.
But i can't help thinking it should just fly...and we should just steer.
A flap to initiate flight.
The focus would be on steering and momentum.
Any additional flaps would be a slight speed boost.
I think we would see more complex flight patterns if everyone didn't do the flap hold flap hold.
If we get nothing they should lower the cost or he will just randomly get played.
I'm saving my 30 bucks for the pricier shinier fade.
<!--quoteo(post=1907492:date=Feb 27 2012, 12:30 PM:name=Flounder)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flounder @ Feb 27 2012, 12:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1907492"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Spikes are just so useless. Any 0 res lmg will win vs 30 res lerk in a long range fight. Ditch the spikes and give him his bite back and try it for a build or two. Just try it. It's beta.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The shotgun spike is like a bite (in fact it's better because you can use it outside melee range).
The problem is that the rest of the situation of "lerk biting marine" is very different from NS1, so just adding the bite (or using the shotgun like a bite) doesn't make the class start working. Shotguns are still too powerful, and spores are still unable to synergize with your primary attack (because you use both from the same range). Additionally, the flight speed cap is too low, which means that you can't leave "high damage LMG range" quickly enough.
<!--quoteo(post=1907533:date=Feb 27 2012, 01:53 PM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Feb 27 2012, 01:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1907533"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe there should be a ranged gas which is weaker then the normal gas. But it would be nice to harass and keep the marines from camping positions all the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Since the lerk gets nothing at hives 2 and 3, this might be a nice easy way to add *something*
It would be nice to see some gases that are tied to the hive type, too. Like 'shade gas' deafens people in an area, 'crag gas' works like umbra etc.
<!--quoteo(post=1907621:date=Feb 27 2012, 07:04 PM:name=Bicsum)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bicsum @ Feb 27 2012, 07:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1907621"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like the current gas model, but the lerk needs a little more armor and another useful ability for the late game
I guess the lerk will get some love eventually.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What if you could improve the lerk without adding armor (a mechanic that requires no skill-indexed player input to become useful), and instead by changing how spores work (and offering more potential for more player input, by aiming them at range)?
They tried the 'armor' solution already. It was called hide, and it made the class stupidly powerful against the things it's already good against. It didn't address any of the real problems with the class. Because it created a way to rush down the command chair, it was removed (which puts us back to where we started, sadly).
Ranged spores are meant to fill a specific role that trailed ones lack: suppression and area denial. The ability to bomb a hallway with smoke to keep marines from advancing without having to worry about any one of them simply clicking on you once is a powerful lerk ability, and its loss has significantly weakened the class.
Cropduster spores have an important feature too, and one that ranged spores can only approximate at best. Spores are great for blocking vision, and the ability to trail gas to cover your escape is a powerful (and fun) mechanic as lerk.
My vote? Alt-fire is always cropduster spores, but lerk can get ranged spores as an extra attack mode, as the skulk gets parasite and the gorge gets build. (possibly at 2nd hive).
Ranged spores are meant to fill a specific role that trailed ones lack: suppression and area denial. The ability to bomb a hallway with smoke to keep marines from advancing without having to worry about any one of them simply clicking on you once is a powerful lerk ability, and its loss has significantly weakened the class.
Cropduster spores have an important feature too, and one that ranged spores can only approximate at best. Spores are great for blocking vision, and the ability to trail gas to cover your escape is a powerful (and fun) mechanic as lerk.
My vote? Alt-fire is always cropduster spores, but lerk can get ranged spores as an extra attack mode, as the skulk gets parasite and the gorge gets build. (possibly at 2nd hive).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The game has changed a lot since those times. I myself never asked for a lerk change, I actually enjoyed the old gas spore, but any change is always good to see how it plays out. I just believe the Lerk should be more of a ranged class that is a glass cannon. I have seen a few decent Lerks, but most of the time they're decent because of the support that comes with them, like friends playing as Gorges and Fades going in to take the heat over the Lerk.
Giving the Spores attack back, would make the Aliens a lot more interesting in terms of how to take rooms back, rather than a chem trail where the Lerk literally has to fly through and in circles around Marines in their line of sight. I am sure with more tweaks and alterations, something balanced, interesting and fun could come out of the Lerk class. I think people are right though, bring back the bite, remove the sniper shots and gas spores, this way the gas is used for cover and won't kill the marines instantly, but if he wants the full kill, he has to scoop down and bite on the marine that he thinks is the weakest during that time. I guess only time will tell :)
<ul><li>crop dusting effect for spores (they fall to the ground)</li><li>possibly larger spread for spores</li><li>Umbra, using a leading plume so the lerk itself is covered by the gas.</li><li>more accurate / useful spikes. (I like that the distance/dmg encourages close combat, but those spikes seem somewhat unreliable, there is room here for innovation)</li><li>either have a protected/ armored underbelly, or adjust shotgun dmg vs lerk (esp in regards to distance)</li><li>Or reduce the cost of the lerk to 20ish.</li><li>anything else?</li></ul>
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edit: additions
<!--quoteo(post=1907672:date=Feb 27 2012, 05:12 PM:name=kingmob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kingmob @ Feb 27 2012, 05:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1907672"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and also a leading plume so the lerk itself is covered by the gas.
Like the lerk was belching the gas far in front of him and it covered him.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> which means that primary attack and spores should both share the same energy, so that you are not OP by protecting yourself while attacking, you must spray then come back to clean up in the chaos or just be a support element. etc
I just got sniped for 60 damage across the entire length of 'flight control' on ns_summit and it was really stupid! At that range I'd be lucky to have one spike from a shotgun-spike hit a marine, and it would do about as much damage as a parasite, if not less.
Another silly/weird thing is how little lerks can take advantage of shade. Not sure what to say beyond that it's sad.
also, lerk spore as is should def drop to the ground.... flying into marines and then getting stuck on something = death.. or one shot with a shotgun from a well-aimed marine = death
- An attack where the Lerk can grab a marine by the shoulders and fling him to the ground (similar to how a lot of avian predators function: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-ibdPMGC1Y)" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-ibdPMGC1Y)</a>. This would cause stun similar to Onos.
- An attack where the Lerk can drop an acid/bile bomb as it flies overhead, that could cause area damage against multiple marines. Optionally could also leave a puddle of bile on the floor for x seconds which would cause armor damage to marines.
- The Lerk could build a nest structure somewhere on the map that could be used for healing of any Lerk lifeform when a Lerk is within x feet of the nest. Nests wouldn't need to be connected to cyst/infestation.
The lerk mechanics are flight and gas clouds. They just don't seem that exciting because they're weak right now.
I'm not very experienced myself with playing lerk so i don't want to sound like im saying the lerk is fine, but just wanted to throw out the idea that maybe lerk mobility allows the lerk to instead be very good at harassing, flanking, RT sniping and overall map control. I've been learning/trying a new style of lerk play where you play super conservative and just go for all of the above and it seems to work very well, especially with two lerks working together not so much to deny area with gas, but to outposition marines and kill them fast with spikes. You can really control the early to mid game with lerk pairs that flank with shotgun spikes, snipe from beyond shotgun range, and don't suicidally engage for example by flying in and laying down huge trails of gas for no reason.
Again, as a non-lerk player i could very well be missing something but it feels that even though the lerk does play alot more timid now, it might not be such a bad thing.
Right now it's a huge gamble to get in close to marines as you can die instantly if they have shotguns. And for what? So you can lay down a field of gas so small that a marines can sidestep a foot or two and they're out of it. The risk/reward doesn't add up. So is the solution to make the lerk more resistant to damage? If so then he'll be even harder to kill long range.
Really the thing that is killing the close range viability of this class is how prevalent shotguns are right now. Maybe the cost of upgrading to them needs to be increased significantly so that it is seen as a big tradeoff to the commander. It used to be that the early "shotgun rush" was a specific strategy that had a big tradeoff in resources lost. If you could take down a hive doing it then it was worth the resources. If you failed it was a big set back. The only other reason for shotguns was to counter fades, but that was only well into the middle of the game. By that point the lerk should have a 2nd hive ability that helps keep him relevant.
wasnt is like 15dmg per tick in ns1? i cant remember
Then you could flight toward a marine and start sporing, then quickly turn back and stop sporing. The spore cloud would continue toward the marine, expanding and slowing down. It would work a bit like the mutalisk attack in starcraft.
With low friction it would be a real ranged weapon, high friction would make it more melee. The current one correspond to very high friction and no gravity.
From a pub game perspective, being a good lerk can really be bad for your place on the scoreboard, and whilst I hate to admit it it I think that causes people to use spikes when gas is much more useful. Lerk gas can hold off a Marine rush for as long as a minute, and pretty much trebles the effectiveness of skulks - but the COD era means we (even me sometimes) try to get the kill ourselves. Perhaps people would focus on gas if alien kills within the spores give assist points to the lerk?
From a pub game perspective, being a good lerk can really be bad for your place on the scoreboard, and whilst I hate to admit it it I think that causes people to use spikes when gas is much more useful. Lerk gas can hold off a Marine rush for as long as a minute, and pretty much trebles the effectiveness of skulks - but the COD era means we (even me sometimes) try to get the kill ourselves. Perhaps people would focus on gas if alien kills within the spores give assist points to the lerk?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^This! The spores as they are now require much more skill than simply shooting them. The only problem is the unbalanced shotgun. A thing that cost so little res should in no way one-hit-kill a 30res life form. It shouldn't even possible to one-hit-kill skulks, because its frustrating as skulk and makes teamplay for this marines obsolete until fades are coming up.
The gas is a really good feature used well, I've rembered a few games as marine where a group of us are just about to be put under attack in a room, when a lerk comes in and fills it with gas. Your next reaction is *gulp* - i'm feeling quite vunerable now. Probably because it temporarily takes away the marines range. Don't deny aliens this, if anything improve it!
The lerk mechanics are flight and gas clouds. They just don't seem that exciting because they're weak right now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess for me, I would just like to see the lerk re-purposed. I've played builds where both the lerk gas, armor and spikes have been both over powered and underpowered, neither of which players seemed pleased with.
Do we know if UWE is happy with the current state of the lerk? In older builds they used to frequently make a lot of balance changes to the lerk but recently there haven't been many changes. Perhaps they've realized through all of the testing and balancing, this is the best it will get with the current mechanics?
The lerk mechanics are flight and gas clouds. They just don't seem that exciting because they're weak right now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, it's true, some of these ideas are borrowed from other classes, much the same way the fade melee attack and the onos melee attack are borrowed versions of the skulk's melee attack.
Either way, I've had some time to think of some further refinements to these suggestions. Bear in mind, that UWE may or may not already be satisfied with the Lerk's current form/abilities, but if they are looking for some new ideas/suggestions, I am more than happy to help suggest some new things.
I am also hoping for UWE to do a total lerk re-spec/re-purpose as opposed to a just tweaking the lerk's numbers back and fourth.
So anyways, here's some of my refined suggestions for new abilities:
<u><b>Claw Grab</b></u>
Level 1 Ability - When flying over a marine, if close enough, the Lerk can dig his claws into a marine's shoulders and carry him off for x seconds. This ability can be used to carry a marine away from his squad and into the vicinity of a nearby skulk or a whip who can then finish him off as he tries to recover.
<u><b>Lerk Nest</b></u>
Level 1 Ability - The Lerk has the ability to build a Lerk nest anywhere in the map for x amount of personal resources. Each Lerk can only build 1 nest at a time. The nest will output an umbra cloud/atmosphere where it is built, providing umbra bonuses for x feet from the Lerk nest. In most cases, this umbra could cover a good portion of a room/hallway. The Lerk nest can be used strategically for either offense or a tactical defense, or even as a marine psyche-out decoy for the alien's 2nd hive. The nest will only have a certain amount of umbra gas that can be outputted before it runs out and the Lerk will need to return to the nest to replenish the umbra.
<u><b>Acid Rain</b></u>
Level 3 Ability - The Acid Rain allows the Lerk to excrete an acid rain down onto marines, damaging both armor and health. Some other differences between Acid Rain and Gas:
- Acid Rain has a way shorter output duration than gas for the same energy cost (or perhaps more)
- Acid Rain does not provide any vision disabilities to marines.
- Being a level 3 ability, Acid Rain would be more physically damaging to marines than gas, similar to the damage rates we saw when gas was first power-buffed, ages ago.
They tried the 'armor' solution already. It was called hide, and it made the class stupidly powerful against the things it's already good against. It didn't address any of the real problems with the class. Because it created a way to rush down the command chair, it was removed (which puts us back to where we started, sadly).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The thing is that spamming spores and spikes from another room isn't that much fun for both sides (well, at least for me it isn't), and i like the way that you have to actively engage marines to be at your maximum potential. Yes, the lerk is supposed to be a ranged class, but it should still be a hybrid to some extent.
I guess you are right about the armor being a poor solution, but the shotgun is taking down the lerk a little too fast. LMG vs lerk seems balanced though.
Increasing armor from 30 (60) to 40 (80) might help a little. You still go down fast if you eat the whole shot (as it should be), but near misses would less likely bring you in danger.
In some other topic someone mentioned a head butt ability, not losing momentum when you get the kill. Just imagine it. Spore a group of marines and play bowling =).
Well, I'm open for everything, I guess.
If the Lerk is meant to fight in close-combat, he needs to be much more durable. Specifically, a 30res Lerk should be about as tough for a 20res Shotgun to kill as a 40res Fade is for a 30res Flamethrower to kill: quite difficult alone, but enough to force it to leave the fight quickly when other marines are around.
If the Lerk isn't meant to be a combatant at all, he needs more support powers to give him gameplay options. The only thing lerks can do to support is gas; if that doesn't work, or if that's already been done, then they're just twiddling their wings.
Making the Lerk a little bit of close-combat, a little bit of range, and a little bit of supports means that there's a marine that can beat him in every situation, and for the amount of res he costs, that just isn't right.
(Personally, I love watching skulks rush in under the gas but not in it.) I think that this would make the cloud much more usable in its current form. You still have to get in close but at least the effects might be more worth it. An Upgrade to damage would help to. Exo could ignore this damage due to filters like in NS1.
I deny that teh TSA would be unfairly targeted in a hallway since they cannot get out of the cloud- They are in a hallway and should be able to shoot it down fairly easily. They isnt any room for the Lerk to manuver to get away. If they are letting it get that close- they can deal with it.
In these cases the marines usually know where ###### is coming from so they gonna cover all the entrances making quick work of any lerk who dares to lay a spore trail for skulks.
A good way to counter that and to promote spore usage (without resorting to projectiles) would be to make the lerk engulfed in a bigger spore cloud around and infront of him while using spores.
The cloud would move with the lerk and completly engulf him, it disappears instantly when he stops using the spores. Make the damage on the cloud low so people don't just abuse it to smoke up complete rooms and gas marines in masses. That way a lerk could cover a full corridor with spores moving torwards marines without giving them himself as a clear target.
Or maybe add it as some kind of alternate fire that uses up extra energy, lots of options around that idea.
Yeah, this is something you can do, but skulks are actually better at it because:
<ul><li>they can deal damage for longer without running out of adrenaline</li><li>they deal damage faster</li><li>they can escape more quickly using walljumps/wallruns/leap, than a lerk that is sitting still up close to a structure and has to pick up speed to escape (while dying)</li><li>skulks don't cost res on top of all that!</li></ul>
The lerk *should* be better at combat in some ways, than the other lifeforms, but it isn't because of a large number of design flaws. You shouldn't have to play a lifeform like the lerk in a really polarized, uninvolved way.
<!--quoteo(post=1907827:date=Feb 28 2012, 08:19 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Feb 28 2012, 08:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1907827"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->^This! The spores as they are now require much more skill than simply shooting them. The only problem is the unbalanced shotgun. A thing that cost so little res should in no way one-hit-kill a 30res life form. It shouldn't even possible to one-hit-kill skulks, because its frustrating as skulk and makes teamplay for this marines obsolete until fades are coming up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I addressed this several times in my lerk thread, but I'll do it again here because I can.
The spores as they are do not "require more skill" than the long-ranged projectile version. There is less player input involved in "how you use spores", and there is less room for creativity. Less room to develop a skill and match it against opponents. If we had projectile spores, you could still use them like the 'crop duster' version (by aiming at floors/close walls), but you wouldn't ONLY be able to use it that way.
Please don't confuse luck with skill. Crop duster spores require luck - the marines being gassed have to fail at shooting a point blank lerk who isn't really threatening them. If they don't, you die and come back to this thread to air your grievance. When you use cropduster spores, the ball is in the marines' court - they can decide to kill you or not. When you use projectile spores, both players get to have input that matters. Lerks aim creatively and set up the situations they want, while marines move and predict gas targets to react to the lerk.
The reason you think the shotgun is unbalanced is because all your tools as a lerk force you to fly into shotgun range and dump 30 pres in the nearest garbage can. The shotgun itself is mostly fine, and it's implemented very similarly to how it was in NS1 (where it was a good counter to lerks, but didn't totally neuter them by its presence).
The shotgun doesn't cost "so little res" either - it costs 2/3 of what a lerk does, but the marine still behaves like a marine except for having a shotgun. He doesn't get to fly or do any of the things that your 30 res buys when you change from another lifeform to the lerk. Like I said above, the lerk has very unique and interesting mechanics - they just feel so weak right now that it's hard for people to visualize how the class *should* work.
I strongly encourage anyone interested in this to go play some lerk in NS1. You'll either understand where some of us are coming from, or be more informed to argue the either side.
I don't know if that's how the lerk was balanced to be, so that you can only harass with one or the other, but it feels pretty constraining and it's sometimes frustrating. TBH I think the lerk would be a lot more fun/ effective if the Spikes were like the skulk bite and did not actively drain your adrenaline when using them.
It's not. The adrenaline cost of spikes was raised in a knee-jerk reaction to lerk rushes killing command chairs early in the game. It didn't solve that problem, since you can still do that just as easily with enough teammates involved.
Having to get in closer to spore is an alright idea and it's a change that I can understand and learn to live with, but spikes are just bad and need to be scrapped or drastically changed.
If you want lerks to be a ranged support class than either give them better support tools that they can use at range without having to get gibbed by marines. If you want lerks to be close range fighters than give them a higher damage close range attack.
Having lerks with 2 lower damage attacks, only one of which works well with the flight model, and low health makes them ineffective throughout the game and not even worth playing which makes me post endless posts about them because they have been the best part of the game for me since ns1 3.0, and currently they are not fun or interesting to play.