Skill based movement
RisingSun
RisingCalifornia Join Date: 2004-04-19 Member: 28015Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
RisingCalifornia Join Date: 2004-04-19 Member: 28015Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">All classes</div><u>Marines</u> -
Sprint is good and i pray doesnt need a stamina bar.
<u>Aliens</u> -
<b>Skulk</b> -
I would love to see wall jumping go away. Marines have the advantage already with range in open enviroments. Skulks need something skill based to close the gaps that also compliment stalking. Why not have a pounce like ability that uses the jump buttom. Hold jump and it charges. Longer you hold it the better the speed up to a point. This would allows surprises from ambush points. But lets take it further. Say you hold jump and pounce forward. When you complete your pounce you can time it so you can get the same charged momentum as your pounce you just charged and continue your momentum. Now this can either be held down to continue the same speed or make it so you keep hopping... i mean pouncing =D with air control hehe
<b>Gorge</b> -
The gorge and the belly slide i think is a good idea for escape and navigating quickly. If there was an increase in speed on infestation it would be even better. I would love to see a drift mechanism added much like mario kart. Using that model you would be able to get a boost after a properly navigated turn and allow for faster escape.
<b>Lerk</b> -
The lerk flight still feels slugish. It would be nice to flap to gain speed and be able to glide slowly losing speed an altitude at a slow rate. Causing a sharp dive and pulling out of it should also cause a momentum gain or banking hard left or right. Weapons could fire downwards when holding crouch and use a bomber approach. Where you dont see the impact but instead release the payload ahead of time.
Flapping shouldnt require too much energy but shouldnt be free either.
<b>Fade</b> -
Blink isnt design at the point for travel. It is a in and out striker tool. It would be nice to give the fade a movement technique different from the others. Not sure what at this point but it needs something.
<b>Onos</b>
Cool mechanic of gaining speed over time when obstructiions are avoided. I would say the speed should be kept if what is in the onos way is gored or attacked.
On my nook tablet. So dont mind spelling or grammar issues. Ill post more with time. Lets look at this as a whole and try to make each class mobile, but also Interesting, fun, and unique.
Sprint is good and i pray doesnt need a stamina bar.
<u>Aliens</u> -
<b>Skulk</b> -
I would love to see wall jumping go away. Marines have the advantage already with range in open enviroments. Skulks need something skill based to close the gaps that also compliment stalking. Why not have a pounce like ability that uses the jump buttom. Hold jump and it charges. Longer you hold it the better the speed up to a point. This would allows surprises from ambush points. But lets take it further. Say you hold jump and pounce forward. When you complete your pounce you can time it so you can get the same charged momentum as your pounce you just charged and continue your momentum. Now this can either be held down to continue the same speed or make it so you keep hopping... i mean pouncing =D with air control hehe
<b>Gorge</b> -
The gorge and the belly slide i think is a good idea for escape and navigating quickly. If there was an increase in speed on infestation it would be even better. I would love to see a drift mechanism added much like mario kart. Using that model you would be able to get a boost after a properly navigated turn and allow for faster escape.
<b>Lerk</b> -
The lerk flight still feels slugish. It would be nice to flap to gain speed and be able to glide slowly losing speed an altitude at a slow rate. Causing a sharp dive and pulling out of it should also cause a momentum gain or banking hard left or right. Weapons could fire downwards when holding crouch and use a bomber approach. Where you dont see the impact but instead release the payload ahead of time.
Flapping shouldnt require too much energy but shouldnt be free either.
<b>Fade</b> -
Blink isnt design at the point for travel. It is a in and out striker tool. It would be nice to give the fade a movement technique different from the others. Not sure what at this point but it needs something.
<b>Onos</b>
Cool mechanic of gaining speed over time when obstructiions are avoided. I would say the speed should be kept if what is in the onos way is gored or attacked.
On my nook tablet. So dont mind spelling or grammar issues. Ill post more with time. Lets look at this as a whole and try to make each class mobile, but also Interesting, fun, and unique.
Comments
Clarification.
Base idea: holding crouch or jump to begin building up a burst of speed that activates on release of the button.
Now to maintain the speed could either be a timed crouch or jump upon completion of the pounce. But only gaining as much stored pounce you did on the previous .
Or after completion of the oounce you time it to press the button and hold it retaining yiur speed allowing you to run at a fast pace. Let go and lose that speed.
Hope that is clearer. =)
Except I think Onos' need charge.
Other than that, +1
I was thinking of the exact same skulk movement mechanic but couldn't quite put it into words last night.
Sort of like hunter's wall-leap in L4D but in first person and with more air control.
You might have a point. Imo. I hate stamina bars. It is a limit that is unneeded. Your gun lowers and you cant fire. Not only is that enough of a visual indicator for me but a good trade off. Speed for vulnerabilty. The screen is cluttered enough without adding a stam bar.
Aliens are fast and will become faster. Mainres will need an infinite sprint. If the lowered gun isnt enouh of a downside make the footsteps a lot louder. NS1 sound was huge.
@ohno exactly =) Forgot to add you should be able to pounce from any surface you stick too. At least this way it isnt limited to walls.
Another button method: hold crouch then hold jump to charge. Release jump to spring maybe.
Flap increases your height, and swooping down does increase momentum, that you can continue with glide and flapping.
As for the skulk, I don't think the skulk needs a skill-based movement to be an equal of a marine. It's much more effective if you have camouflage and just ambush marines, I prefer that tactical team-play as well
But skulks do. In an open area marines have the range. Skulks need something to close the distance quickly, especially late game. It isnt ambush on but encouraged. The are the generic soldier class after all and this is all made worse because the are bigger now and just as easy to kill. Hiding days are over.
Right now we've got roughly 6 months before the game is supposed to be out and most of the movement related things are very sketchy prototypes. Simply slapping something superficial trick on top of otherwise complete game a month before the release probably isn't going to convince anyone who isn't already satisfied by the limited options we have.
Surely that's what leap is for? Although leap does give a somewhat predictable movement, at range marines should be able to skill skulks, because late-game a skulk shouldn't be as powerful as a standard marine, otherwise marines will lose all the time. That's what the other lifeforms are for, to keep the balance as the game increases in complexity
Right now we've got roughly 6 months before the game is supposed to be out and most of the movement related things are very sketchy prototypes. Simply slapping something superficial trick on top of otherwise complete game a month before the release probably isn't going to convince anyone who isn't already satisfied by the limited options we have.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Totally agreed. Maybe if we look at it as a whole, with each class having a different speed gaining mechanic we can come up with something better than what is now, because you are right. We are debugging the dead end of wall jumping and nothing for the fade. 6 months will go by fast. UWE justneeds ideas that work as a whole. I think that is what we the players have been missing in our suggestion, the big picture.
Don't hate the bar, hate the stamina. If you have stamina (like we have) put a stamina bar, it just look buggy right now, I really though it was a bug with shift key or some lag before I read on the forum there was stamina in game.
Easy fix: remove stamina, or even sprint.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Another button method: hold crouch then hold jump to charge. Release jump to spring maybe.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This reminds me of an ns1 map where you could get some kind of jetpack, that made you do a huge jump when pressing crouch-jump quickly, it was really fun to use.
It would make a lot of sense to have something similar for the skulk, when you press crouch your legs go down and store energy, giving you a bit of speed then you press jump.
Good point. I also hate the current leap. I would give it up for the charge method. On another note. Ns had skulks still being effective late game even with bhopp but by no means overpowered. Not only do later marines take more bites but kill you faster with more damage. So at least give the skulk one move that gets him close for at least one bite. Skulks as is feels impotent and more like cannon fodder than in ns1 late game with heavies.
Easy fix: remove stamina, or even sprint.
This reminds me of an ns1 map where you could get some kind of jetpack, that made you do a huge jump when pressing crouch-jump quickly, it was really fun to use.
It would make a lot of sense to have something similar for the skulk, when you press crouch your legs go down and store energy, giving you a bit of speed then you press jump.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
It would make a lot of sense to have something similar for the skulk, when you press crouch your legs go down and store energy, giving you a bit of speed then you press jump.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is very similar to what a big share of actual skulk use of combat bhop is except for the intuitiviness issues of bhop, but also less control, less flexibility and less scalability.
I guess leap tries to do a bit similar, but it just runs into problems with scalability. If you've got the same performance level for newbies and top players, you have to tone down the ability so heavily that it ends up being mostly disappointing little jump rather than an intimidating predator pounce.
I guess the charge up adds some challenge to it though, I just don't know if it's enough to overcome the scalability issues.
I guess leap tries to do a bit similar, but it just runs into problems with scalability. If you've got the same performance level for newbies and top players, you have to tone down the ability so heavily that it ends up being mostly disappointing little jump rather than an intimidating predator pounce.
I guess the charge up adds some challenge to it though, I just don't know if it's enough to overcome the scalability issues.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Adding air control would help but it gets close to the bword that locks threads shhhhhh dont tell insane <3
Heh yeh, probably the best thing to do knowing how these usually go.
Edit: On a side note, I guess it's OK to give a bit of promotion of a onos movement system I sketched up. <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=116265" target="_blank">The I&S topic</a>.
The fade in NS1 was fun to control and killable while doing so.
The fade in NS1 was fun to control and killable while doing so.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Blink makes them invulnerable to damage? I remember shotgunning a Skulk and killing a Fade instead whilst it was blinking away. He may have just been unlucky enough to pop-up there, but I don't know :|
In vanilla ns2, there is a small delay on the fade becoming invulnerable.
It doesn't really balance out the fact that good fades can always escape.
The fade should have momentum to work with when coming out of blink state.
That currently works when going directly up, and directly down, but forward momentum isn't working.
This was on the progress page some patches ago, and it is the same problem Yuuki stumbled upon when he created the fade mod.
The fade mod also heavily increases the adrenaline drain, so you can't stay in blink state(invulnerable) for extended amounts of time.
Also the adrenaline drain increases the longer you stay in blink, to encourage small blinks and use of momentum.
Here are some videos with it:
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As for the skulk walljumping, go to skulk_client.lua and enable the speedmeter.
It is possible to keep your speed on the ground after you jumped off a wall, if you time your jump perfectly.
Although it have some issues, like the skulk is not jumping off the wall in your desired direction many times.
That is because the walljumping is based on the angle of the wall instead of the angle of the view.
That causes the skulk to lose some speed trying to get his desired angle, this needs change.
The reason it gets threads locked is because people keep trying to bring this unintended glitch back as a legitimate game mechanic. As has been said in this thread: Skulks are not <i>meant</i> to be effective against marines in an open corridor late game. Why do people keep trying to force this issue?
Every alien should stand some chance. Late game if all you have is skulks and no one has res that means GG? I think not. Even in NS1 skulks were still useful and sometimes very deadly used correctly but fragile. At least they had a chance. The skulks are too big and slow to be even worth venturing out of the hive. Why not camp and wait for PRes. This is what you are suggesting right?
Bunnyhop was left in NS1 by the developers on purpose and skulk gameplay was balanced around its use. You may not have liked it, but that doesn't make it ok for you to spread lies and misinformation about the subject.
No, it means you don't run at marines through open corridors. Something you shouldn't be doing anyway, late or early game.
<!--quoteo(post=1901036:date=Feb 8 2012, 08:48 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Feb 8 2012, 08:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901036"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bunnyhop was left in NS1 by the developers on purpose and skulk gameplay was balanced around its use.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That they chose not to fix it does not mean it was an intended mechanic. I didn't agree then and don't agree now that its use was balanced in any way. And if you want me to beat that dead horse some more, here goes: NS2 is not NS1. And let's please leave it at that, I think both our opinions are clear and irrelevant either way: bhop is not coming back.
Marine sprinting is a useless gimmick, as it doesn't require any thought or consideration to use, other than the obvious bit about not using it when you want to shoot. It's just there and there aren't really any ways to use it creatively.
Skulk movement is sluggish and boring. I know a lot of people who were very good at NS1, and they all tell me the same thing: The NS2 skulk is boring and frustrating to play, compared to NS1. My experience with it is the same.
The fade blink seemed good in theory, but is terrble in practice. If you learn how to do it right, it's all but impossible to die as Fade. It creates very formulaic play and is very frustrating for the marines to play against. It isn't even any fun to do as fade, because while you can stay alive almost indefinately, racking up ridiculous kill/death ratios, it's still pretty boring to do because you have to stick to the exact same formula of blink in-swipe twice-blink out-heal-blink in-swipe twice-blink out every time.
The gorge bellyslide just isn't working. It's a step in the right direction, giving him a movement skill (to replace bunnyhopping), but this isn't what was needed. The ratio of player input to slide efficiency is just too low, just like it is with sprint. It's just a key you click and there isn't really anything to think about or consider, it's just a punching a button and watching something happen.
The onos momentum thingymajiggle could be a good idea if all the bugs were worked out, but I see a lot of potential issues with it. The biggest one being that there's going to be a lot of frustrating deaths from seemingly miniscule player errors. Turn a millisecond too fast to the left when going around the corner to escape, thereby hitting the corner and losing all your speed? Too bad, you're dead.
Again, please stop spreading misinformation/lying through your teeth. During the switch from v 1.04 to 2.0 the developers not only removed bunnyhopping for marines yet deliberately left it working for aliens, but they even added some improvements for the aliens from the default Half-Life "bug". If that isn't an "intended mechanic", I don't know what is.
You may not agree that it was balanced, but I think I'm going to trust the educated opinion of <players who spent years figuring out every nook and cranny of NS1 gameplay> over that of <random casual NS1 player>. There are also some very convincing theoretical arguments for why it is needed for balancing melee vs. ranged gameplay for all levels of play, read more about that here: <a href="http://www.ninelegends.com/the-argument-for-bunnyhopping/" target="_blank">http://www.ninelegends.com/the-argument-for-bunnyhopping/</a>
Funnily enough, I didn't mention by a word that bunnyhopping should be added to NS2, I simply posted to correct your misinformation/lies. Blame yourself.
Bottom line:
Skulks need some skill based movement that doesnt have a limiter such as walls. The floor is everywhere, why not use that?
Gorges as he said have a silly gimmick that is cute and hilarious to talk about but adds little since you press it and slide in a straight line. Not hard to guess where you will end up.
Lerks as stated.
Fades likewise.
The Onos will suffer from this. Just look at Mario Kart with the same mechanic for the heaviest class of racer. They have clear race tracks, we have prop filled corridors that dont always have 90 degree walls. Architecture can stick out and catch you. The model is HUGE.
As Fana and other have stated the sprint just doesnt get the job done because marines are so god awful slow and cant be maneuvered with ease when a skulk is chomping on your jewels. NS1 had the knock back coupled with the backward jump that could utilize air control to gain a quick backwards sidestep.
Every class was FUN to run around with. They had Bhop, strafe wiggle, and wall walking. All of which had their uses. Why not try to recreate successful movement styles? We have little to no time to really test these things out. If movement alone were the problem, ok cool, but everything isnt even in yet, not to mention the alien classes are still confused to all hell. Just saying. Get something that you know works and improve from there. I didnt even say the nasty thread locking Bword. Just what works!
edit* I may be bias because i agree whole heartily with Fana but i felt like BHop was left in and balanced around. Can the devs weigh in here. You DID create the game. You are still around and can answer this once and for all. I get tired of it being used in arguments when it seems so blatantly ignorant and wrong.
They're currently trying to sort this out by adding new movement mechanics. Most of them aren't very good (blink, bellyslide, sprint) and while I applaud their efforts at trying to create a wholly new mechanic with the walljumping, it's not looking like a winner at the moment. The jury is still out on walljumping though, there's no way to tell for sure until it is fully implemented and people have a had a chance to learn how to use it properly. At the moment it's looking just as unintuitive (main criticism against bunnyhopping) as bunnyhopping used to be, but far less satisfying to use.
I should add that NS1 also had a walljumping mechanic that you could do some pretty cool maneuvers with if you knew how to use it, but it was quite limited compared to the current mechanic they're trying to implement in NS2.
They're currently trying to sort this out by adding new movement mechanics. Most of them aren't very good (blink, bellyslide, sprint) and while I applaud their efforts at trying to create a wholly new mechanic with the walljumping, it's not looking like a winner at the moment. The jury is still out on walljumping though, there's no way to tell for sure until it is fully implemented and people have a had a chance to learn how to use it properly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Isn't their new movement mechanics following what you said in that link? Players would have to learn towards bunny-hopping to do certain pushes on the enemy? If they simply popped in the same bhopping mechanic in NS2 would it really be learning something new, or would the old experienced players just rely on an old tactic they've followed in other games/NS1? I know with NS2 the map layout and other factors could impact even experienced players, but they're not learning anything new are they, just working on using the same mechanic on different maps?
I hope to see these other mechanics progress and enhance itself (If it doesn't work, they'll eventually remove it and try something else.)