Balancing Mines

Harimau

<div class="IPBDescription">(again)</div>Give mines
1) a short explosion delay,
2) a small trigger radius, and
3) decreasing damage with blast radius
(this last one is probably already in, maybe someone can check for me)

Fast and accurate enough aliens should be able to escape most of the damage by running past the edge of the trigger radius, or nullify the mines entirely by triggering an explosion at the edge and summarily escaping.

Obviously, it would be silly to attempt this if you are slow, it would be silly to get too close to the centre of the mine, and it would be silly to move in a tight group in a mine-infested area.

twiliteblue

I think a delay to detonation will render mines useless most of the time. They already issue audible warnings to nearby aliens, and are not too difficult to spot by sight.

The full damage radius could be slight smaller tho, IMO. Although during early testing stages, the radius was too small, that it never dealt full damage. :)

Techercizer

I feel like mines should be about as effective as hydras. They both cost Pres, both guard early-game areas on the cheap, both get spammed to provide effective defenses, and both get destroyed by late-game tactics and a little awareness.

Any gorge can throw an unconnected cyst into a pile of mines to shut them down (though skulks will want to roof-walk if they don't have the area scouted), and any marine can GL a hydra farm to death (though you'll want good arc skills or just good ARCs for the high ceiling ones).

Harimau

That really just depends on the length of the delay. I was thinking something along the lines of a quarter to a half second.

azimaith

Couldn't you just have mines become emplaced charges the marine has to weld before they activate. That would totally solve the "I place mines while in a fight and then jump around." You'd have to be right next to it to weld meaning just about anything would kill you for placing in combat.

Harimau

That solves that issue, yeah. I like that.

But it doesn't solve the issue of spam, or rather, the <b>usefulness</b> of spam.

azimaith

I know what you mean, you can always place them around vents that are typically infrequently traveled, and around any corner near your base. Maybe if the marine commander had to drop boxes of mines with Tres, so you couldn't get them from the armory.

Harimau

That seems reasonable to me, but runs counter to their idea of players buying their own equipment. It also means that the number of mines don't scale with player numbers. In smaller than an "ideal" game, the mine to alien ratio would be higher and therefore more effective; in larger than an "ideal" game, the mine to alien ratio would be smaller and therefore less effective. I think consumables, like the mine, should scale with player numbers. For comparison, the sentry, which is not a consumable, shouldn't scale, because its role is not to attack (an indefinite number of) players so much as to defend (a finite number of) structures or locations.

Edit:
HOWEVER, if we have significant TRFK (team res for kill), that leads to natural scaling (more players = more targets (sources of res) and more hunters (collectors of res)), then I think your idea (or Soul_Rider's below) could work very well, and also allow medpacks and ammopacks to scale as well.

Soul_Rider

<!--quoteo(post=1895406:date=Jan 18 2012, 05:48 AM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Jan 18 2012, 05:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895406"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe if the marine commander had to drop boxes of mines with Tres, so you couldn't get them from the armory.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

As mines are free from the armoury for marines, why not keep that mechanic, but the commander has to schedule mines to the armoury, at a t-res cost per mine. Comm decideds he wants 4 mines placed to protect an IP, so he loads 4 mines to armoury at a cost of X t-res per mine. Marine picks the mines up for free from armoury.

put3rg33k

<!--quoteo(post=1895351:date=Jan 17 2012, 06:32 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Jan 17 2012, 06:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895351"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I feel like mines should be about as effective as hydras. They both cost Pres, both guard early-game areas on the cheap, both get spammed to provide effective defenses, and both get destroyed by late-game tactics and a little awareness.

Any gorge can throw an unconnected cyst into a pile of mines to shut them down (though skulks will want to roof-walk if they don't have the area scouted), and any marine can GL a hydra farm to death (though you'll want good arc skills or just good ARCs for the high ceiling ones).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you think the pres spent to evolve to Gorge, place a cyst and then place a hydra (needless to say if I want to SPAM hydras) is anywhere in the ball park compared to mines? Not only is it not even remotely close, but if you want to keep those hydras you have to have the cyst link to the dynamic infestation. This may work in your hive area or a forward progressed area but not on an assault. Marines can pretty much drop mines wherever they want regardless of any other factor. Nice try though.

azimaith

The problem is mines are vastly more effectively than hydras. You can place a mine anywhere and anyone who happens to trip it (and you can put them around corners people can't see easily) has essentially a 100% chance of dying. Hydras take a long time to kill a marine, especially one whose attempting not to die, while mines just instantly kill you. Because mines are so effective at killing aliens, they also work to offset costs of placing them. Hydras often don't kill any marines at all, serving only to deter them temporarily. If you make a hydra farm capable of seriously threatening a marine, you're spending upwards of thirty to forty pres on it, plus another 10 to be a gorge, plus more for the cyst chain, plus all the pres you're missing out on getting back because the gorge is a poor combatant.

Also, mines <b></b><i>MUST DAMAGE MARINES AND THEIR STRUCTURES EQUIVALENT TO ALIENS.</i><u></u> The ability to shoot skulks with absolute safety by standing on a mine is ridiculous, as is the ability to drop mines in combat and hop around on them. Furthermore, suicides from mines should give the kill to the alien who set it off and no points to the marines (or a suicide penalty.) Otherwise you haven't sufficiently penalized players for sitting on mines for safety. Seriously, even if you don't remove mine spam, you absolutely must make mines friendly fire kill marines instantly when detonated and this change needs to go in as soon as possible. The game is basically unplayable once marines get mines at the moment.

JuCCi

Well it's easy. If you blow up 1 and there are more close to the others they should blow up also. Also i think if a mine is next to a marine building it should take damage from the mine blowing up. That would make placing them on some building a big no no. :) And also you should take damage or die if near the mine blowing up. Let em know what you guys think.

Price

I don't understand that much crying about mines...there tons of ways to kill them...


Mines cost 10 res. which result in marines spend all their res...i see al ot of marines buying mines instead of shotgun, GL or Flamethrower...which gives fades a good feeling :P

I mean mines getting so fast killed :
1. a gorge shoot one bilebomb and EVERY mine is gone...or spit at it
2. a cyst next to a mine = every mine is gone
3. parasite the mine and hit it like 4-5 times its gone
4. a lerk shoot at it and its gone...
there so many ways to destroy them and marines wasted their res...


I have no idea why so many people crying about them, i mean build 190 was the first time they have been added...take patience.
I saw a alien commander build a line of cysts into marine base and blow up EVERY mine...also whip rush, drifter rush (how the heck did drifters did damage to a command station? it was after 5 seconds at 22% health.)

Yuuki

+1 for mine friendly fire

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That seems reasonable to me, but runs counter to their idea of players buying their own equipment. It also means that the number of mines don't scale with player numbers. In smaller than an "ideal" game, the mine to alien ratio would be higher and therefore more effective; in larger than an "ideal" game, the mine to alien ratio would be smaller and therefore less effective. I think consumables, like the mine, should scale with player numbers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I'm not too sure about that, because mines effectiveness is not linear at all. For example if you're fade and take one mine hit you loose some amount of health, take two and you loose twice the amount, nice it's linear, but take three and you're dead. There is a big discontinuity here, it's the most nonlinear thing you can imagine. And there is many situations where you can blink in a mine field without seeing it.

The linear increase of res per player rely on the assumption that everything else scale also linearly, which is probably not always the case, typically in rts games ranged balls deal damage like the area but take damage like the circumference against melee (sc1 marines vs zerlings). A bit off topic here...

Yuuki

We could try ff, here is the detonate function from Mine.lua

<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->local function Detonate(self)

    local hitEntities = GetEntitiesWithMixinForTeamWithinRange("Live", GetEnemyTeamNumber(self:GetTeamNumber()), self:GetOrigin(), kMineDetonateRange)
    // RadiusDamage without damage falloff
    RadiusDamage(hitEntities, self:GetOrigin(), kMineDetonateRange, kMineDamage, self, true, false)
    
    local params = { surface = "metal" }
    params[kEffectHostCoords] = Coords.GetLookIn( self:GetOrigin(), self:GetCoords().zAxis )
    
    self:TriggerEffects("grenade_explode", params)
    
    DestroyEntity(self)
    
end<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->

We should just add (after the first RadiusDamage):

<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->    hitEntities = GetEntitiesWithMixinForTeamWithinRange("Live", self:GetTeamNumber(), self:GetOrigin(), kMineDetonateRange)

    RadiusDamage(hitEntities, self:GetOrigin(), kMineDetonateRange, kMineDamage, self, true, false)<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->

And it should work.

Heroman117

I'd much rather have mines only damage the user that placed them just like the grenade launcher. It would be rather frustrating to be killed by some dumb teammate who decided to place mines at his feet while you move as a squad, or a commander to lose his vital forward structures due to a relatively small mistake made by a new or unaware player.

It will quickly teach marines to use mines intelligently and make the learning process as fast and least painful to their game experience as possible.

azimaith

If mines don't harm everyone on them you won't stop mines from becoming "safety nets" for marines. Fights will be all about mines being dropped, marines advancing, then running away to stand on mines of another player when the skulks come making them effectively invulnerable to the skulk. Players will learn quickly where mines are a good idea and where they are a bad idea after a few screw ups blowing up their team mates or their structures. Failing at something is the first step to doing something right, and shouldn't be avoided. Ultimately you're teaching a man to fish, even if that means he might go hungry the first few times (as in make a mistake and blow up someone friendly/damage structures.)

maD maX

Simple concept comm dosnt research mine he stocks them. Ex: comm goes to armory and purchases 20 mines for 10 res, now a rine can buy X number of those mines up to a carry limit but once the mines are gone the com has to buy more.

Mines are a valid weapon and should not have a limit in the way a turret does however they should be part of a larger strategy... If a comm wants to blow his res on giving you mines sure.

Long term end of game when rines have the res to spend on mines aliens should have the hive energy to counter with cycts.

 

put3rg33k

<!--quoteo(post=1895492:date=Jan 18 2012, 04:06 AM:name=Price)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Price @ Jan 18 2012, 04:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895492"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't understand that much crying about mines...there tons of ways to kill them...


Mines cost 10 res. which result in marines spend all their res...i see al ot of marines buying mines instead of shotgun, GL or Flamethrower...which gives fades a good feeling :P

I mean mines getting so fast killed :
1. a gorge shoot one bilebomb and EVERY mine is gone...or spit at it
2. a cyst next to a mine = every mine is gone
3. parasite the mine and hit it like 4-5 times its gone
4. a lerk shoot at it and its gone...
there so many ways to destroy them and marines wasted their res...


I have no idea why so many people crying about them, i mean build 190 was the first time they have been added...take patience.
I saw a alien commander build a line of cysts into marine base and blow up EVERY mine...also whip rush, drifter rush (how the heck did drifters did damage to a command station? it was after 5 seconds at 22% health.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

You must play marine. :-P

Simply put the amount of mines scattered across the map make impossible for any of these suggested options to be sufficient solutions.

Harimau

<!--quoteo(post=1895503:date=Jan 18 2012, 08:59 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Jan 18 2012, 08:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895503"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not too sure about that, because mines effectiveness is not linear at all. For example if you're fade and take one mine hit you loose some amount of health, take two and you loose twice the amount, nice it's linear, but take three and you're dead. There is a big discontinuity here, it's the most nonlinear thing you can imagine. And there is many situations where you can blink in a mine field without seeing it.

The linear increase of res per player rely on the assumption that everything else scale also linearly, which is probably not always the case, typically in rts games ranged balls deal damage like the area but take damage like the circumference against melee (sc1 marines vs zerlings). A bit off topic here...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's so much simpler than that though.

With more players on the enemy team, you have more potential <b>targets</b>.
With more players on your team, you have potentially more <b>mines</b>.
The game will usually be such that the ratio of the enemy team size to your own team size is 1:1, or close enough as makes little difference.
Therefore, the effectiveness (ratio of mines to targets) scales 1:1 with game size.

Naturally, the fade has more HP, and can tank more than one mine. That's not a consideration here, however. We're only dealing with the number of mines that can be placed, and the number of targets that can be hurt. The mines aren't designed to be anti-fade or anti-onos, except at most as a deterrent. Naturally, mines (low tier) become "less effective" as higher tier aliens come into play. This is by design.

Let's consider a different situation: The commander purchases mines out of the team resource pool (which doesn't scale with the number of players)

With more players on the enemy team, you have more potential <b>targets</b>.
With more players on your team, you <u>do not</u> have potentially more <b>mines</b>, because that number is limited by the income from resource towers which do not change with game size.
The game will usually be such that the ratio of the enemy team size to your own team size is 1:1, or close enough as makes little difference.
But now the effectiveness (ratio of mines to targets) decreases with increasing game size.

The key here is that mines are consumables - you use them once, and they are gone.

This is not the case for sentries. You build the sentries out of the team resource pool - therefore, they are finite in number even as the size of the game increases and decreases. However, they <b>each</b> defend <b>single locations</b>, and the <i>length</i> of their defense is <u>not</u> a <b>one-time use</b>, but <b>indefinite</b>.

Kurrine

<!--coloro:#aadd00--><span style="color:#aadd00"><!--/coloro-->What damage type are mines right now anyways? That would be an important factor perhaps in balancing them as well.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->

Nakorson

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't understand that much crying about mines...there tons of ways to kill them...


Mines cost 10 res. which result in marines spend all their res...i see al ot of marines buying mines instead of shotgun, GL or Flamethrower...which gives fades a good feeling :P

I mean mines getting so fast killed :
1. a gorge shoot one bilebomb and EVERY mine is gone...or spit at it
2. a cyst next to a mine = every mine is gone
3. parasite the mine and hit it like 4-5 times its gone
4. a lerk shoot at it and its gone...
there so many ways to destroy them and marines wasted their res...


I have no idea why so many people crying about them, i mean build 190 was the first time they have been added...take patience.
I saw a alien commander build a line of cysts into marine base and blow up EVERY mine...also whip rush, drifter rush (how the heck did drifters did damage to a command station? it was after 5 seconds at 22% health.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

In theorie there is no problem with destroying mines but reality isn't that easy.

The mines which are placed alone at corners or vents exits are fine. But mines are "spam used" to defend the base or forward bases, where you normaly have more then one sentry in addition to the mines and there is most time a marine around. So shooting the mines as lerk/skulk/gorge is nearly impossible. Dropping a cyst as gorge is somtimes possible but really dangerous. Dropping cysts as comm is pretty much the only thing you can really do. Personally i dont like that tactic that much cause it feels strange, cant really explain why.

Zxaber

I've been following this game closely, but I can't play it yet, so forgive me if this suggestion seems a bit off.

But mines are meant to protect Marine structures, right? What if they needed power, the same way a Hydra needs infestation?