Skulk musings
Deadzone
Join Date: 2003-07-03 Member: 17911Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2003-07-03 Member: 17911Members, Reinforced - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">animation being a balance bender?</div>I was reading through the large design document that the devs have linked on the front page, when I noticed a note about Skulk animations potentially affecting the marine vs skulk gameplay. This got me thinking about how differently the skulks move in ns2 compared to ns1, and here is what came to mind:
-Framerate increase will generally help marines read and predict skulk movement, but this was mentioned in the design document.
-The angle we're seeing skulks at is considerably different - in NS1, marines felt taller and skulks felt smaller. Check out this clip of NS1, 0:36 to 0:50
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IPIfMsQbKA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IPIfMsQbKA</a> Then check out Hugh's new 300'th video on the front page right now.
-The skulk is animated incredibly differently. In the same NS1 clip mentioned above, look at how smoothly skulks used to glide along the floor, even with Celerity. In addition, in NS1, the legs of the skulk were completely irrelevant - the main shape to aim at was the core body, which kind of glided along and never moved around in the animation.
In NS2, the skulks move in small bounds, and their core/torso moves around with them. The "forearms" of the legs make up a huge part of the silhouette when the skulk is facing right at you, and there's a LOT more movement going on, making the exact trajectory of the skulk harder to read at any given instant. (especially if the player is bobbing and weaving - every time the skulk changes which arrow keys he's pressing, the animation shifts dramatically and makes it harder to aim) Even if the NS1 player was moving all over and using mouselook to weave, the skulk's core torso never shifted position or size.
For a good view of this, use Hugh's 300 video, right around 2:05. Personally, I LOVE the NS2 skulk animations, but they just feel different.
-The models in NS2 do not turn as smoothly as in NS1. The models rotating with mouselook in the HL1 engine spun so smoothly that it could look comical. However, the intervals at which the skulks in NS2 rotate seems to be much larger. This may be a framerate issue in the end, but it could also be with how the skulk models attempt to smooth the running animation. I could also see it being a "side effect" from the wall running/orientation code.
The point being, that larger intervals between the degrees that a skulk's rotation is displayed makes it hard to see which direction they are facing, and which possible directions they can shift their movement. Add the earlier point about the skulk's animations looking different, and it gets very odd to aim.
-Jumping physics are different. This has nothing to do with bunnyhopping. It feels like skulks fall faster in NS2, though.
Can anybody relate to any of this? I hope it gets people thinking about what's different this time around, even if I am totally off.
-Framerate increase will generally help marines read and predict skulk movement, but this was mentioned in the design document.
-The angle we're seeing skulks at is considerably different - in NS1, marines felt taller and skulks felt smaller. Check out this clip of NS1, 0:36 to 0:50
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IPIfMsQbKA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IPIfMsQbKA</a> Then check out Hugh's new 300'th video on the front page right now.
-The skulk is animated incredibly differently. In the same NS1 clip mentioned above, look at how smoothly skulks used to glide along the floor, even with Celerity. In addition, in NS1, the legs of the skulk were completely irrelevant - the main shape to aim at was the core body, which kind of glided along and never moved around in the animation.
In NS2, the skulks move in small bounds, and their core/torso moves around with them. The "forearms" of the legs make up a huge part of the silhouette when the skulk is facing right at you, and there's a LOT more movement going on, making the exact trajectory of the skulk harder to read at any given instant. (especially if the player is bobbing and weaving - every time the skulk changes which arrow keys he's pressing, the animation shifts dramatically and makes it harder to aim) Even if the NS1 player was moving all over and using mouselook to weave, the skulk's core torso never shifted position or size.
For a good view of this, use Hugh's 300 video, right around 2:05. Personally, I LOVE the NS2 skulk animations, but they just feel different.
-The models in NS2 do not turn as smoothly as in NS1. The models rotating with mouselook in the HL1 engine spun so smoothly that it could look comical. However, the intervals at which the skulks in NS2 rotate seems to be much larger. This may be a framerate issue in the end, but it could also be with how the skulk models attempt to smooth the running animation. I could also see it being a "side effect" from the wall running/orientation code.
The point being, that larger intervals between the degrees that a skulk's rotation is displayed makes it hard to see which direction they are facing, and which possible directions they can shift their movement. Add the earlier point about the skulk's animations looking different, and it gets very odd to aim.
-Jumping physics are different. This has nothing to do with bunnyhopping. It feels like skulks fall faster in NS2, though.
Can anybody relate to any of this? I hope it gets people thinking about what's different this time around, even if I am totally off.
Comments
In my experience, the main factors that affect Marines' aim against Skulks are animation, and client performance (I'm getting ~30-50 FPS idle, but it drops to 15-30 whenever there's combat.). As Marine Commander, I have noticed that unless the Marines players have high end machines and have low ping (eg. endar), Marines' usually end up losing in small skirmishes (1v1 or 2v2) (especially with only Rifles) on neutral ground.
Have a look at NS2HD 301 (1:45-1:49), where the Skulk moves around sporadically (after wall walking). The fact that FRAPS was running probably worsened the game performance that recorded, but I think such occurrences are not too uncommon, given the average system spec of the beta testers.
Another example was NS2HD 299 (@2:27-2:30) where Hugh was shooting the Skulk on the catwalk. The combination of low client FPS and jumpy movement animation made Hugh miss most of the shots. Due to long pauses in between frames, players often have to predict and lead the target, and end up missing as the target (Skulk) changes direction.
I think this is a big part of the problem. Going to address this next.
For me a moving skulk in NS2 is a lot harder to fix my aim on then it was in NS because of all the detailing going on.
I love how the game looks and ofc im not suggesting it should be like NS but it does make it a bit harder.
This might be less of an issue on bigger maps though, on summit aliens have quite a few nice hiding spots in most rooms/hallways to duck behind/jump you from.
o.o
Glad to help! Forgive me while I go geek out at having done something useful.
I think this is a big part of the problem. Going to address this next.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Charlie,
I believe I made a video regarding this back in 183.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6MsNpqGu2o" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6MsNpqGu2o</a>
Where I was undoubtingly better at FPS games back in NS1 days due to being in one of the worlds best CS clans, I'm no slouch at them now and I have an extremly high end desktop PC.
To me, it does seem like Skulks in NS1 were alot easier to kill, I think their are many reasons for this.
1. The contrast in colour between the 'map walls' and the Skulk models in NS1 allowed for easier 'spotting' and tracking. Think ns_eclipse and ns_view as opposed to ns2_summit.
2. The NS1 maps were in most places 'taller' this means that Skulks skulking on the ceilings waiting for ambushes had further to travel to get the to the marine.
3. I would think that bullet registration is not quite upto scratch. I was playing on the HBZ server last night (renowned for being one of the best in the world for EU players).
I was guarding Ventillation looking towards the corridor to Datacore. A skulk decided to charge straight at me; shooting him with the rifle; I must have used 40 bullets to kill this skulk and I literally only managed to kill him just before he got on top of me. Now I'm not saying I'm the best shot in the world but I am pretty damm good and the crosshair literally didnt leave the Skulk model for the 3 seconds or so it took him to reach me. This was quite early in the game so I would assume that the Aliens were upgrading melee not armor, and Marines had either Level0 or Level1 weapons.
Server had a tick rate of 30, I had a ping of about 60 (from memory), I was just amazed how long it took for this skulk to die. Now reading Charlies Development Log I can see that Rifle Damage / Rate of Fire / Skulk HP / Skulk Armor are about the same, so what is it that allowed this skulk to suicide rush me and almost kill me?
4. FPS, as stated earlier I have a kick ass system, but I have suffered from mass FPS loss at times, bringing it down to about 15 in combat (yuck!). At this FPS killing anything that is moving fast is just down right hard. This is probably because you can't keep your aim on your target due to the frame rate, but I can tell you that FPS has a major impact on Skulk effectivness.
I think pushing a quick build out that changes Skulks to bright pink or green will give us inside a few hours if its #1 that is causing this increase in effectivness. Playing games on the ns2_veil will help decide is #2 is the culprit. 3 and 4 however requires some hard coding and performace issue enhancements.
Lets not kid outselves though, its not just the Skulk that is super OP, the speed of Lerks; is a game breaker. Lets not even talk about how a Lerk does more range damage with Melee 3 than Marines do with a Rifle and Weapons 3 (or atleast how they win this match up 1v1 against what is supposed to the ranged race vs the melee race). Again this might be an issue with hit registration and being that a Lerk can fire countless more rpm than a Marine can only pushes this issue more in the favor of the Lerk.
And of course lets not forget the Fade, the super OP unit of doom. I am aware that when Marines work as a team and work in VERY close knitt groups Fades dont pose such a threat, however... It really should not be possible for 1 Fade to Blink into a group of 4 Marines, Kill 2 and Blink out scotch free. Again, considering damage types and levels are the same as NS1 this must either be down to the human reaction time of the Marines of the fact that Blink is super broken.
Just thought of a quick fix for Marines vs Fade, change the Rifle to Normal damage! Job done!
TLDR - Don't be so f**king lazy and read it from the top. It even has nicely spaced paragraphs, spelling and punctuation for you.
aw sweet, Does this mean ns1 yellow eyes are coming back too!?
P.s. You guys definitely will need torso turning when onos is implemented, as in a trailing back end.. Think assassin's creed horse game play animatios.
I really don't know what to say... I'll just leave now.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/DsVlz.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
I do think marines need HUD enhancements that highlight other marines, similar to alien hive sight.
I would agree here but I think their ingame name floating above their head would do the trick. Im also often confused when my commander tells me to follow player X and all I see are a bunch of guys in armor.
This is so true. +1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1
I still see the engine screech to a stop for a second every now and then.
These seem to be confided to spawning and combat.
I am not going to call it FPS or network or whatever due to the fact that I can't check these stats during combat.
What I have been noticing lately (I do not know if it is new or simply less screeches so i can count them now)
Is that I seem to see more screech during close combat in general.
more when I am playing marine
less when I am playing skulk
It seems to me that the marines have a LOT of maneuverability issues. I totally understand that it's intentional for the marines to have much less along the lines of movement, but this is more severe than game design.
Personally it seems to me that there are little things that pop up all over the map that marines can "catch" on as you try to strafe, or even as you try to run down a hallway to the front lines. They might be small props, cables, geometry corners, or whatever, that accidentally are big enough to stop movement. The skulks may honestly not notice them simply because walls don't slow skulks down, and that the skulk viewpoint is low enough that you're always looking slightly up, which would climb over the obstacles.
It's also very difficult to hop over scenery that looks like it should be jump-able, with railings being the worst offenders. Railings are also notoriously hard to shoot through (I'm looking at YOU, Summit's Ventilation)
Marines have big issues running into each other/blocking each others' bullets. This is probably a mix of clumsy marines in cramped locations, but when skulks have much easier-to-aim bites in that situation, it's very hard to use a bullet weapon to hit even one skulk as he chews through your buddy. (I just saw one skulk w+m1 through four marines defending a hallway) I am 100% sure that would not have happened in NS1.
I'm not saying this is something that needs drastic change, but it is a contributing factor towards aliens in general surviving stupid odds.
Marines feel slow and just hard to move around with. In NS1, I could jump crouch over a skulk on the ground, and feel confident I stood a strong chance of dodging that first bite. I also could go toe-to-toe with a fade, reasonably confident I could duck and strafe to time its swipes. If I died, it felt like it was because the alien had good aim, not because my timing was off or the game didn't register my movement correctly. In NS2, if I try to do something like strafe an attack, the marine just kind of plods along and the alien easily hits me. Jumping + crouching or ducking high attacks don't move the marine up or down far enough to be useful in dodging. It also doesn't help that half the time I get "corrected" by the server and the movement attempt is negated.
(TL:DR = marines starting/changing movement was much snappier in NS1, feels sluggish in NS2)
Lastly, while this isn't movement related, I have a slight issue with the rifle in NS2 at the moment. Simply put, its cone of fire is nonexistant. The LMG in NS1 had a small spread to it, and I actually think that adding the spread in NS2 would *improve* marine aim at mid to close range.