Balance Mod

Sewlek

that description is wrong

ogz

anyway to test lowering pres gain?

dePARA

<!--quoteo(post=1921787:date=Apr 4 2012, 02:27 PM:name=Sewlek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ Apr 4 2012, 02:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1921787"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->that description is wrong<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Then you should fix this :D
As we have no weldable doors in the build, it doesnt matter atm. But i would change it for sure, if this feature is in.

I thought about lowered pres-income too.
We have 1/4 atm, maybe i test 1/5 soon.

Xarius

Going to try out some games on it now, need more people!

Edit: seems to have crashed :x

Sewlek

<!--quoteo(post=1921793:date=Apr 4 2012, 09:46 AM:name=dePARA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dePARA @ Apr 4 2012, 09:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1921793"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then you should fix this :D
As we have no weldable doors in the build, it doesnt matter atm. But i would change it for sure, if this feature is in.

I thought about lowered pres-income too.
We have 1/4 atm, maybe i test 1/5 soon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

you could try 1/6 (ns1 values) but no idea if that would work in ns2

Soul_Rider

The balance being suggested currently around the forums is not to reduce the Pres income, that is ok, but instead to reduce the starting Pres or maybe remove it altogether. We have had suggestions of 0-15 Pres as a starting value. The current Pres income is ok, just the starting Pres is too high.

Koruyo

Would it really solve the problem? While it might be a good thing to do anyway, im not sure...

Were you had like 2 aliens that could save for lifeforms in ns1 from start(talking about 6v6), we have now 3-4, and soon 3-5 if gorges dont have to spend pres anymore.

While marines might have a bit more frequent weapons, they also dont have as strong weapons. No HMG, and GLs need to be equipped by a few ppl to be effective in a rush, where you had only 1-2 guys in ns1 and others could have hmgs or whatever.

Lowering starting pres only sets back the problem - it gives marines maybe 2-3min more time until the problem starts...

If you look at the lifeforms, they have basically ns1 stats, but other than in ns1 you can have nearly your whole team running around with it at the same time.


There are many MANY possible ways to address this, but its hard to see which one would be the right attempt while keeping the ns1 feeling...

Xarius

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lowering starting pres only sets back the problem - it gives marines maybe 2-3min more time until the problem starts...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is true, but prolonging the early game is certainly a good thing. P.res drop alone doesn't solve the problem of alien domination, it needs to be combined with:
- Fix to 1-hive onos
- More T.res sinks for alien commander and/or slower expansion/teching if the Khamm doesn't have gorges.

I definitely agree the no p.res gorges are bound to be problematic for balance, I honestly don't see how allowing more fades and onos later in the game is going to be a good thing. Gorges having to spend p.res is fine, the costs are just too high atm, drop them significantly and add a cap on hydras based on the amount of hives.

P.res income rate is fine IMO, slowing it would only prolong games slightly, though that is arguably in favour of marines as well. Not only will it make fades and onos come out a little later, it will also make it harder for players to go fade and onos again after being killed shortly after they evolved. (Which may or may not be a good thing, it means a bigger penalty on 'wasting' your big lifeform or marine upgrade)

dePARA

Still tweaking 203
These values seem to work pretty well on summit and tram. Didnt test mineshaft today.

Initialres 20 (default 25)

Onos:
kSmashDamage = 150 (default 100)
kSmashEnergyCost = 21 (default 13)
Onoscost=80

ARC
Health = 2000 (default 2400)
Armor = 200 (default 300)
ARClimit of 8

Turretcost 15 (default 10)

PowerPointBuildTime = 8 (default 5)

Pres-income 1/5 (default 1/4)

At the end:
No Onos before the 15 min mark.
Fade is ready if 2nd hive go up (perfect timing)
You have to be more patient (both sides)

I run theses changes on "Heidis Balancefarm (HBZ)", so everyone can test them.

IronHorse

suggestion: make fade swipe completely useless against structures
its almost there anyways.

watching a team of fades being all that is needed to camp a rine base and destroy it seems like it shouldn't be able to happen.
(on that note, can you make mines ignore fades completely?)

endar

I think having the mines ignore fades is a bit much, but right now its a bit broken. As a fade you can easily detonate mines with either blink or shadowstep and take no damage. Make them not detect fades, but they are still killable by fades, so if a fade wants to sweep mines, there is a hp cost involved.

Or was that what you were meaning?

ScardyBob

<!--quoteo(post=1922701:date=Apr 6 2012, 07:25 PM:name=endar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (endar @ Apr 6 2012, 07:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1922701"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think having the mines ignore fades is a bit much, but right now its a bit broken. As a fade you can easily detonate mines with either blink or shadowstep and take no damage. Make them not detect fades, but they are still killable by fades, so if a fade wants to sweep mines, there is a hp cost involved.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this could be fixed by making the mine detonation instant rather than with its current delay.

IronHorse

that is what i was meaning.


great numbers, though! i would recommend much lower starting Pres once gorge changes occur. And until phasegate "meatgrinder" effect is reduced, you should keep turret costs where they are - its already just barely economically viable in competitive situations.

<i>But why did you mess with the pres income rate? </i>
Not tracking on that one?

dePARA

In the current version (203) we have following problems:

Aliens have nothing effective vs buildings (specially turretfarms):
- Thats why i increase smashdamage. 1 onos can smash an powernote to 30%, then his energy went out. So 1 onos cant kill an node alone in a few seconds and marines can react. But doing more dmg vs buildungs make an onos more an finisher.
- I saw so many games, where marines has deserve to lose cause bad marines (no aim), bad coms (no support) but they win cause the com just drop turret after turret. Inceasing the Turretcost prevent this and com have to chose till midgame: turretspam or upgrades.

Mass-Onosing around 8-9 minutes mark:
Around 10 min its the time to attack an 2nd hive most of the time.
Marines are normally not very well upgraded @10 min cause they have to build PG, forward armory and obs,etc.
With the lowered initial+pres-income you have the first fades at this moment. Thats what i called "perfect timing".

This has another nice sideeffect.
Lets say, one alien want to save for onos and 2nd hive is beeing attacked @10 min.
Alien wait and marines too strong:The hive went down and onos has no stomp
Marines to strong and alien chose to go fade for better defence: Aliens lose 1 Onos=No mass onosing

ARCtrains from hell:
With lowered ARC HP- and armor, aliens have a chance vs ARC trains.
I limit the ARCS to 8 temporary till a soulution is found (I often see ARC trains bigger than that, wich is really annoying)

With the lower pres-income it feels much better in different ways.
Just try it on my server, its hard to explain cause the change is so subtle.

Here you can see the settings in action (pcw):
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heiao9KZ1B0&list=PL74ADD852053A249A&index=3&feature=plpp_video" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heiao9KZ1B0...ture=plpp_video</a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BT8L3EoT7Mo&list=PL74ADD852053A249A&index=4&feature=plpp_video" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BT8L3EoT7Mo...ture=plpp_video</a>

Some small tweaks for the tweaks after watching the videos 2 times :)
Onos back to normal cost (75)
Ammo- and healthpack cost @ 0.75 (default 1), so marinecom didnt lose his supportrole.
Minicystcost=2 (default 3)
Hydracost=7 (default 10)

Xarius

Can't say I agree with the sentry turret pricechange, the only issue with them exists when they get spammed. By increasing their price you are also hitting their viability when only 1-2 get fielded for some deterrence. (1 - 2 are easy to surpass and take down with skulks, lerks, fades, etc) Turretfarming should be addressed some other way.

Is there a way to tie amount of gorge hydras to amount of hives by the way? Could be interesting to try out cheaper hydras hardcapped based on hives.

Pampelmuse

dePARAs changes work out quite well.

- turrets are only meant to delay a skulk rush or deny a single skulk from harassing an empty base, not to cover room after room and shut it down completely.

- i havent seen a single onos in 3 games in a row. a personal record since onos was released : )

- losing a fade now really hurts an alien team, and feels so much more rewarding as a marine. like back in the old days of ns1...

i hope UWE sees the impact that such subtle changes can create

Floodinator

Jup the decrease of Pres income to 1/5 balanced the game alot!
Played lots of hours on the modded one and then in the unmodded. Big difference!

Soul_Rider

I've just been thinking about the current lack of use of FT's in game. Generally because the price is too high. I think UWE may have made a mistake with their weapon order. I thought I'd propose a different order as an idea, that might help with too powerful Onii, without adjusting hide armor and making them too easy for rifles to kill. It is quite a big change but let me know what you think.

GL's and FT's are specific use weapons. They are limited to their roles and are not general purpose weapons. Both the LMG and shotgun are early game weapons, but both have a similar role, in being very versatile weapons.

The cost for FT's at 30 res is way too much. Currently Marines struggle early game to kill Onos. My suggestion is to make the shotgun the top of the tree weapon at 30 res.

The idea would work like this:

Upgrade paths are the same as normal.
FT's would now cost 20 res at an advanced armory.
Shotguns would cost 30 res at a normal armory.
Shotguns now deal Normal rather than Light damage. This makes them more effective against the onos hide armor, and puts them to the top of the tree, as all round killing tools, in both effectiveness and cost. FT's coming at 20 res from the AA would increase the chance of them being used and researched in the game.
Max damage of SG's would be reduced by a couple of points to counter the increase provided by the switch to Normal damage. The figures can make the total max damage output the same(or a little higher), but hide armor is less of a double nerf to shotguns (Light damage is weak vs armor, then onos has hide on top. Normal damage only has to combat hide with normal damage vs armor).

I believe this change is a more natural order for the guns, and would provide a lot more balance without tweaking hidden numbers like hide armor. It's bad enough they use the hidden numbers, so I think it would be a good idea to keep them as consistent as possible :)

Let me know what you think of the idea...

This was originally posted by me <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=117716&view=findpost&p=1924394" target="_blank">here</a> in a general discussion thread on FT's

IronHorse

great idea, but i see one major problem with it:

We need the shotgun out early right now simply due to 4:30 fades.
Since the inclusion of shadowstep, FT is less of a threat to the fade, and shotgun remains the only practical solution. (even if the price were to be adjusted)

Even if you put the shotgun in the AA and FT in normal, as a comm i'd still go for the shotgun, every time. And this is all because of that 4:30 fade... shotgun + A2 is a must.

Soul_Rider

Who said anything about putting shotgun in AA? I said the upgrade tech stays the same, Shottie comes from Armory and FT from Advanced Armory.

IronHorse

I know. I was giving an example, hence the "Even if". :)
An example demonstrating that the FT not being used often has little to do with the shotgun, let alone their prices.
It has to do with Countering Fades. Shotguns do this better, IMO. (Increasing their effectiveness as you suggest only serves to further this point)
And when it came time of GL vs FT, i'd still research and have my marines buying GL to take down the hive / remove structures.

These reasons are why there are so many threads relating to FT viability. In short - it's purpose/clear benefit is not clearly cut out just yet.

Sewlek

i want to increase the fire rate (and reduce damage to compensate) to make it feel more natural (visuals indicate continuous damage...). well, that's not really a balance change. i would like to have the flamethrower burn away infestation directly and maybe make out of the infestation patch a burning carpet (that spreads to the cyst(s) and damages them). would be also a nice idea to let the FT deal simply structural damage:

the grenade launcher does this already, but as a tradeoff whips can simply throw the grenades back.
the flamethrower would be then the true structure and infestation counter (beside ARCs), but it's downside is that you need to be close up.

i see marines with flamethrowers like the firebat class in SC. would be cool to have an additional purchase able armor upgrade, so you would truly get this class in the game (together with the bulky looks). i see the exosuit as kind of a vehicle and not something really personal for one player. so once you get your exo, you jump in (while still wearing a jetpack for example) and once the exo is destroyed you take yourself some damage as well but the exo dies independent from the player.

edit: would be actually better to simply change the flamethrower to be an exosuit only weapon, otherwise you going to have huge strategical advantage (JP in exosuit, suicide run and then finish everything off with JP and flamethrower? would be a bit too strong i think)

those are just random thoughts from me, ignore the stuff about firebat, exo as vehicle etc. :D but what i agree with is that the flamethrower needs a better defined role and the weapons needs their costs adjusted (aliens, especially onos, need their abilities adjusted as well).

ubikjam

I like the idea of FT eating up DI and damaging the structures built on it - though obviously you'd have to limit how far the flames spread and prevent DI from just regrowing instantly (perhaps a 15 sec delay after the flames end)

Slightly off topic - it would be nice if DI ate guns dropped on it. Seems small, but that would be a significant hinderance to marine pushes which would only further encourage taking out DI with FT's.

No idea how UWE are planning on implementing the Exo (personally not too keen on the vehicle idea), but i'd love to see a FT varient for exo. Dual weilded FT's woud look terrific in a hive room. I don't think it should be instead of the normal one purely because of its role as the anti-fade weapon early on.

Xarius

FT and GLs should be utility weapons, i.e there should only be a couple of them in every team, rather than the entire team getting one. Definitely agree the flamethrower needs to be revised a bit, it certainly has a role, and it should be a must-have for one player in a squad later in the game (to effectively deal with infestation/structures/etc)

dePARA

I run these small changes on all HBZ-servers right now (204):

Initialres=20 (default 25)
ARC-HP=1800 (default 2400)
Onoscost=90 (default 75)

IronHorse

<!--quoteo(post=1925001:date=Apr 13 2012, 03:08 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Apr 13 2012, 03:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925001"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->FT and GLs should be utility weapons, i.e there should only be a couple of them in every team, rather than the entire team getting one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea this is what structure damage only will accomplish

<!--quoteo(post=1924607:date=Apr 12 2012, 06:14 AM:name=ubikjam)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ubikjam @ Apr 12 2012, 06:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1924607"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it would be nice if DI ate guns dropped on it. Seems small, but that would be a significant hinderance to marine pushes which would only further encourage taking out DI with FT's.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is genius. Would create such the meta game<strike> if it had less time on the ground, like say 7 seconds?</strike>
You should post this in the I&S forums too.

swalk

<!--quoteo(post=1924405:date=Apr 12 2012, 01:54 AM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Apr 12 2012, 01:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1924405"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's bad enough they use the hidden numbers, so I think it would be a good idea to keep them as consistent as possible :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For this very reason, onos hide armor should be removed. It doesn't make much sense, and it's very unintuitive.

dePARA

207 has some little issues that need new tweaks.
I test these changes on HBZ 3 right now:

Harvester HP 1000 and armor 250 (default: HP 900 and armor 125)
Bile Bomb damage 50 each second over 5 sec (default 35) - in 206 it was 85
Startres 10 (default: 25)
Powerpoint: HP= 1800 and armor 1100 (default: HP = 1200 and armor = 1400) - Onos can take down a powernode too easy in my opinion. Maybe i give my previous Onos-changes a try again.

And a early version of Idle-kick from Hackepeter ist running on our servers for testing, im sure he give it to the community soon :D

Sewlek

<!--quoteo(post=1933473:date=May 4 2012, 12:21 PM:name=dePARA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dePARA @ May 4 2012, 12:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933473"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...
Startres 10 (default: 25)
...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

testing this now as well

Xarius

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Harvester HP 1000 and armor 250 (default: HP 900 and armor 125)
Bile Bomb damage 50 each second over 5 sec (default 35) - in 206 it was 85
Startres 10 (default: 25)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Loving these changes, HBZ 3 is definitely my favourite server atm