Gorge ( bile bomb)
JuCCi
Join Date: 2011-08-08 Member: 114961Members, NS2 Map Tester
Join Date: 2011-08-08 Member: 114961Members, NS2 Map Tester
So i was thinking gorge with the self heal nerf is good. But now not as many might use him. It feels as if he is in need of another building he can drop or something else. Well i was thinking.... What if bile bomb also slowed down marine movement speed like a slime that sticks to objects where it hits them. So this would put the gorge as a support unit like he is. The slim would go away after a few sec. so it would be balanced. It could look maybe like infestation a lil.
Comments
The problem with the gorge right now, in my opinion, is grenade launchers. Simply put, they're pretty ridiculous against buildings and end up making hydras mostly useless unless you are putting them in areas that aren't likely to be attacked (so not likely to be GLed the couple users in the marine pack.) They slow the marines slightly, but you can't keep up the placement at 10 res each to compete with the marine grenade spam, much less the fact the hydras are being killed from out of LOS and are butchered in piles by a handful of grenades.
I'd really like more options for gorge placements for defense, I feel like I'm mostly a heal bot whose best ability is to force the enemy to go GL before shotguns, which is nice, but I don't think that's a good definition for a player class. Then again, I just plain like playing engineer style classes, I want to set up an area to be a nightmare to get through, and while hydras can do that to some degree, they're pretty limited at the moment. More structures for gorges to drop to make multilayered defense would be really cool (for me) but I don't know that's what players want or need.
I'm all for more strategic options for the gorge, but I think gorges should probably remain pretty wimpy up close, they're best defense should be bellysliding into range of a hydra so the enemy is forced back from the gorge.
1: The ability to place them, along with cysts, in high up areas.
2: The ability to see their maximum range.
As for gorges, well I'd like to see a whole lot of things for them, I find them sort of bland feature wise, the most interesting thing about them is thinking up neat areas to place hydras.
EDIT:
So I figured I'd test it out online to see if building on ceilings would help. I turned laid a cyst chain to the Summit Reception vent which hangs over the exit to Heliport. Then I turned into a skulk, went into the vent, and turned back into a gorge
I placed a cyst in the vent and a on the wall followed by several hydras all on the highest point reachable on that wall nearly at the ceiling. Now if you'll recall, the ceiling of Summit Reception is quite high. Eventually the nade spam arrived and grenades detonating on the ground were still hurting the cysts and hydras way up on the wall, well out of normal position.
I don't think there's any solution for hydras with the marine team being as they are now. Fixes for them are probably going to have to be cut out of the marines firepower. If anyones been playing on the servers recently, I think we've all become sick of grenade spam and sentry farms, it seems pretty evident the aliens were winning their previous games all on the back of an overpowered fade.
As it is right now, hydras are for the most part, a waste of resources the moment they have grenade launchers, one marine will decimate a vast area of hydras with ease and safety, you can't even really go up and stop a lone marine with a gorge as is due to the nerfed healing and grenade damage (and gorges should have never been able to run around and tank marines before anyhow.)
But I agree, grenades are too effective right now, AOE range and damage need tweaking.
By the nature of players he probably would have stopped if I had put a single hydra up there to do the same thing, but there seems something terribly wrong about the way anti-structure combat works when you compare 50 res of hydras being a liability while 3 sentry guns near each other is almost unassailable with current weapons unless you get behind them (which is sort of the point), and at the very least, extremely slow going to kill with bile bombs.
A single hydra alone isn't much of a threat unless the marine has some reason he has to stay in the area of some other threat (say he's trying to kill you as a gorge.) I've killed many hydras with the rifle while they were actively firing on me without moving at all.
There's a fundamental problem with the hydra v gl relationship that is not at all shared by the bile bomb v sentry gun relationship. (Imagine, for a moment if you will, if a bile bomb killed structures in even twice the number of hits of a grenade launcher, imagine how much less effective sentries would be. As a note I typically see packs of hydras die in three grenades, so that would be sentry guns eating it in 6 bile bombs, which I don't see.)
As with most balance issues, were at a point where certain things are overstepping their bounds. Grenade Launchers do excellent damage to infantry, amazing damage to structures and don't need line of sight. Their main down side is that once the enemy gets close you could easily commit suicide with it unless you use the attached rifle. If you have a weapon or class role get so bloated it steps on other things toes you've got a problem, and that's exactly where the grenade launcher is, its rolls of grenade fat are seeping into other weapons purposes like an overweight neighbor on an airplane.
They really should decide whether the GL is an anti-structure or anti-infantry weapon and specialize it, beyond that, it probably shouldn't be wiping out structures so quickly <i>in an area of effect, especially not such a larger area of effect.</i>
We'll see how this plays out however, maybe there's something fundamental I'm currently missing or some error or other feature that isn't yet implemented that will turn this all around. Till then my one real joy in the game, putting hydras in sneaky places to try and make defense grids that are hard to pass, is pretty much dead as soon as grenade launchers arrive on the scene. Maybe I'm looking at it wrong, but if I can't kill, and I can only slow down, then why don't I just be a skulk and do both for less.
By the nature of players he probably would have stopped if I had put a single hydra up there to do the same thing, but there seems something terribly wrong about the way anti-structure combat works when you compare 50 res of hydras being a liability while 3 sentry guns near each other is almost unassailable with current weapons unless you get behind them (which is sort of the point), and at the very least, extremely slow going to kill with bile bombs.
A single hydra alone isn't much of a threat unless the marine has some reason he has to stay in the area of some other threat (say he's trying to kill you as a gorge.) I've killed many hydras with the rifle while they were actively firing on me without moving at all.
There's a fundamental problem with the hydra v gl relationship that is not at all shared by the bile bomb v sentry gun relationship. (Imagine, for a moment if you will, if a bile bomb killed structures in even twice the number of hits of a grenade launcher, imagine how much less effective sentries would be. As a note I typically see packs of hydras die in three grenades, so that would be sentry guns eating it in 6 bile bombs, which I don't see.)
As with most balance issues, were at a point where certain things are overstepping their bounds. Grenade Launchers do excellent damage to infantry, amazing damage to structures and don't need line of sight. Their main down side is that once the enemy gets close you could easily commit suicide with it unless you use the attached rifle. If you have a weapon or class role get so bloated it steps on other things toes you've got a problem, and that's exactly where the grenade launcher is, its rolls of grenade fat are seeping into other weapons purposes like an overweight neighbor on an airplane.
They really should decide whether the GL is an anti-structure or anti-infantry weapon and specialize it, beyond that, it probably shouldn't be wiping out structures so quickly <i>in an area of effect, especially not such a larger area of effect.</i>
We'll see how this plays out however, maybe there's something fundamental I'm currently missing or some error or other feature that isn't yet implemented that will turn this all around. Till then my one real joy in the game, putting hydras in sneaky places to try and make defense grids that are hard to pass, is pretty much dead as soon as grenade launchers arrive on the scene. Maybe I'm looking at it wrong, but if I can't kill, and I can only slow down, then why don't I just be a skulk and do both for less.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
how many grenades do marines get before having to run back to an armory to recharge? 5,6? how many bilebombs does a gorge get? oh yeah, INFINATE and you can shoot them pretty quick too.
Gorges have to retreat too, especially with the 50% drop in self heal, a half-competent team will attack any bile attempts.
And if we were to argue they'll have fade coverage to let them stay there longer or possibly not have to retreat, marines have remote armories or ammo drops to make their own retreat possibly not even a retreat at all.
And if we were to argue they'll have fade coverage to let them stay there longer or possibly not have to retreat, marines have remote armories or ammo drops to make their own retreat possibly not even a retreat at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
fades can lock down the remote armory and a skulk can finish it, if marines run fades follow and kill them.
Its pretty obvious that bile bombs are their damage level because it has no ammo capacity, but the level of difference is humongous. Grenades are better by so many levels of magnitude it's not even remotely comparable even with infinite ammo. If you offered marines a grenade launcher that did bile bomb damage but had infinite ammo they wouldn't want it. Their ammo problems are further reduced by the fact marines move in siege formations thus typically have an armory in short reach and the commander can drop ammo packs as he likes.
I'm not going to get too far into this with you because you're frankly, a notorious troll and flamer on the boards, but even without an ammo cap, the difference is clearly in the GL's favor.
<!--quoteo(post=1871739:date=Aug 28 2011, 11:36 AM:name=RichardRahl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RichardRahl @ Aug 28 2011, 11:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1871739"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->fades can lock down the remote armory and a skulk can finish it, if marines run fades follow and kill them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And how does this work when the armory is covered by sentry gun fire causing the fade to retreat (who needs to be healed by the gorge, who needs the adrenaline to bile bomb the sentries) and the skulk can't get anywhere near it while the sentries are going.
Do you see the issue here?
The gorge needs to bile bomb the sentry. Marines are guarding it to kill the gorge, the fade goes in to stop the marines, the fade is forced back by marines and sentries and thus the gorge needs to heal him, but to heal him he needs adrenaline which means he has to wait a considerable time before he can finish healing him due to lack of adrenaline then wait even longer so he can bile bomb, all the while the marines are not getting everything they lost back from the armory yet again.
It's a inefficient circle of adrenaline use that self-perpetuates.
The gorge needs to bile bomb the sentry. Marines are guarding it to kill the gorge, the fade goes in to stop the marines, the fade is forced back by marines and sentries and thus the gorge needs to heal him, but to heal him he needs adrenaline which means he has to wait a considerable time before he can finish healing him due to lack of adrenaline then wait even longer so he can bile bomb, all the while the marines are not getting everything they lost back from the armory yet again.
It's a inefficient circle of adrenaline use that self-perpetuates.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem with the armory as it stands is that it supplies armor.. I don't know why UWE chose to do this :\ It's really one of the contributing factors in this circle because without armor the marines would die faster allowing the gorge to bile deeper. That, and the lack of movement chambers or some building to provide extra energy for the aliens. Think about it - if a marine said to another "hey weld me" then this creates a chain reaction -> player2 turns to weld player1, player2 can now be struck in the back by a fade, thereby needing armor himself and also not being on alert enough to ward the fade who may heal and/or come back again to take out player1 or 2 - the only problem with this is that now the marines need to weld eachother and people are complaining that they can't rely on their squad mates to do so. I think as it stands the marines would then need the exosuit if the armory didn't provide armor to balance this..
Still though that means that end game tech is needed as everyone has been saying, patience, it's beta after all.
I mean think about if build 185 had implemented the armory not giving armor, how much this would change the marine/alien win ratio. :P
Gl's splash damage is too big.
Hydra vs GL solution is the shade cloak. You can't shoot what you can't see, but the shades current implementation it stupid. The constant micro managment of toggling it on every 30 seconds is idiotic especially when you hold few areas. it worked fine in NS1 as a permanent cloak.
I also agree with the armory welding players armor. A vanilla armory should not weld players but and advanced one should.
Or make healing/armory repair an infantry portal ability.
If Bile Bomb was even half as good in damage as the GL turret farms wouldn't just disappear, turrets would disappear, they wouldn't stick around long enough to matter for anything, certainly not enough to be worth their cost. It's vitally important to address the base source of the problem, not just treat its symptoms.
Turret farms are prevalent for several reasons.
1: They're easy to keep up against current enemies with MAC's super fast repair.
2: They're extremely lethal.
3: There is nothing else to spend resources on later.
4: Marines can spam grenades around them all day long without risk making for a solid wall of explosions you can't pass by.
Hydra Gardens are not so prevalent because:
1: They're easy to kill, but only with a certain weapon.
2: You don't have to be in line of sight to kill them.
3: They can be killed en masse.
4: They aren't exceedingly lethal unless there are large packs of them, in which case number 3 is true.
Hydras still pop up every once in a while, but they're not going to stick around very long once grenades come out, and frankly, effectively removing one of the gorges abilities because an enemy can possibly purchase a weapon seems wrong.
Turrets, hydras, bile, and GL's all need a balance pass where their roles are definitively defined and narrowly provided so they do one thing fairly well. If turrets type objects are supposed to just delay, they need to be resilient enough to delay any enemy, granted, enemies with specialized anti-structure weapons will be delayed less, it still needs to be significant.
If they're there to delay, damage should be more related to forcing enemies to leave the area, not on flat killing them dead.
If they're there to deny area, they need to do serious damage such that they require special weapons to deal with.
Currently turrets essentially deny land, while hydras delay movement. The problem is that hydras don't delay almost at all against grenades and grenades kill both infantry and buildings very well from relative safety.
I largely agree with you, but for the sake of removing the 2+hour matches that sentry spam creates, upping the bilebomb damage considerably in B186 would save us a lot of grief. Its not like this can't be changed again when new features/optimization/bug fixes occur.