ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
I'd also like to make a plea for putting a res node in marine expansion and server room so relocations are actually viable. I've used (and seen) a marine relocation on summit a few times and it definitely adds more strategic diversity, but is only possible because Heli, SA, and Crossroads all have res nodes.
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1866348:date=Aug 4 2011, 09:24 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Aug 4 2011, 09:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1866348"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd also like to make a plea for putting a res node in marine expansion and server room so relocations are actually viable. I've used (and seen) a marine relocation on summit a few times and it definitely adds more strategic diversity, but is only possible because Heli, SA, and Crossroads all have res nodes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, doesn't seem fair the aliens get 2 res nodes basically in their starting room, while marines have to go quite a long ways to find a second res node.
<!--quoteo(post=1866350:date=Aug 4 2011, 05:49 PM:name=Quovatis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Quovatis @ Aug 4 2011, 05:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1866350"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, doesn't seem fair the aliens get 2 res nodes basically in their starting room, while marines have to go quite a long ways to find a second res node.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is resolved mostly by moving the main base to ME. This means you have MS and Repair nodes within walking distance, actually making the Marines able to get 3 early res nodes. It's just a matter of defending Repair, because it will get attacked. A lot.
Personally, I find the performance of Rockdown, Tram and Summit to be completely indifferent, with none performing to the standards of a AAA game, but not being entirely unplayable. I agree though, if UWE wants better feedback on Tram, they are going to need to up the performance of it for those who are experiencing problems.
<!--quoteo(post=1866348:date=Aug 4 2011, 04:24 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Aug 4 2011, 04:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1866348"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd also like to make a plea for putting a res node in marine expansion and server room so relocations are actually viable. I've used (and seen) a marine relocation on summit a few times and it definitely adds more strategic diversity, but is only possible because Heli, SA, and Crossroads all have res nodes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> We actually have some pretty big plans for Tram. One of the smaller things, though, is we are going to replace the techpoint in Marine Expansion with a res node. Server room is going to get a rework, as well, which probably will include the addition of a res node, as well.
Hmm, sounds like a good change, given that the tech point is kind of a liability for marines at the moment as they have no real use for them that close to their starting base.
<!--quoteo(post=1866268:date=Aug 4 2011, 01:46 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Aug 4 2011, 01:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1866268"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hrrm I would say rather than that, put in a flag to say whether they start destroyed or not.
---------------------------------- better if all built doors work the same way, but some doors start unbuilt.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Valid point and a viable solution. I haven't had much time to actually get in the game lately but do you think it would be beneficial for doors to require power to engage/disengage locks?
On one game I actually built a second command chair at marine expansion to start. It felt pretty neat spawning in a room that actually looked like a command center with a 3d globe and all, but we were especially vulnerable to attack due to being behind in the arms race the entire time. We took repair room pretty easily, though, and the configuration makes holding 3 res nodes at once easy for the marines. The skulks didn't use the secret vent entrance into the expansion much, so I can't tell how safe we really were.
In the game before that, alien commander wanted to fast second hive at marine expansion, and even though everyone was on the same page, the distance proved too great for us. We had the advantage of surprise for 25% of build progress by not chewing the power node, and we put up a fight, but in the end it wasn't a viable option. I would have liked to have more tests of what splitting infantry portals would do between two really close bases, but doing that in Summit actively killed my team, and with beacon on the way it won't matter.
I do know now that having 2 res nodes or two tech points really close together makes the map a totally different ball game from summit. Right now, everybody is fighting on the left side of the map, and there will be 1 or two people scouting around the entire rest of the map because it's absolutely vital for aliens that marines not hold repair room. If that happens, endgame is pretty much always flamers escorting an arc to each tech node. Tram hub is usually deserted, and I've never seen marines take interest in elevator transfer because with the server room, there's no reason to build a hive there until endgame, and for the marines, if it's not game-endingly urgent, you're securing repair room.
With the fixes mentioned, I believe Tram will be a fast tech map, with each team running the gamut of current upgrades at least twice as quickly as summit assuming both teams are competent, because the repair res nodes will be easy for marines to secure simultaneously and because the server room hive is the safest place on the map.
Does anyone know who the creator of summit is? I have a small bug to report to them. Check it out: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4mPcKckgjk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4mPcKckgjk</a>
While we're at it, you can build sentries on top of the two middle pillars in marine start and they end up being in the wall and really hard to kill, this one time when we were trying to build a command chair at alien start the tech node rotated 45 degrees and broke, and building a phase gate under any awning or in the catwalk in ventilation makes it so you have to crouch to go through it if you can go through it at all.
<!--quoteo(post=1866554:date=Aug 5 2011, 06:15 AM:name=vizionz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (vizionz @ Aug 5 2011, 06:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1866554"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Does anyone know who the creator of summit is? I have a small bug to report to them. Check it out: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4mPcKckgjk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4mPcKckgjk</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showuser=19166" target="_blank">pSyk0mAn</a>
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=109792" target="_blank">Link to his thread on the mapping forum</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1866510:date=Aug 5 2011, 01:51 AM:name=SN.Wolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SN.Wolf @ Aug 5 2011, 01:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1866510"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Valid point and a viable solution. I haven't had much time to actually get in the game lately but do you think it would be beneficial for doors to require power to engage/disengage locks?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Possibly, but the trouble is that a lot of doors are on the edge of rooms and therefore, on the edge of power nodes, it may not be clear which node controls a door.
The infestation unlocking doors approach I think works better, as you can convey that easily with an infestated door texture and it's easy to see why it happened.
<!--quoteo(post=1866071:date=Aug 3 2011, 05:29 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Aug 3 2011, 05:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1866071"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While we know that the performance on this map is currently not as good as Summit, making it hard for some people to judge the gameplay, we would still love to get more feedback about the layout and gameplay from players, as most of the comments up to this point have primarily been in regards to performance and bugs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I love the layout in Tram, as it actually makes it feasible for the marines to relocate. If you relocate in summit anywhere, then you just get stomped because you're closer to the main hive than you want to be, one of my biggest problems with summit actually, that the main hive is closer to the tech points than the marines are, by a fair amount. Perhaps this could be where a lot of the gameplay issues stem from?
But in Tram if you relocate to Marine Expansion (which needs a new name, like holo-room or something), then you have easy defence of 4 resource points, rather than 1 or 2 in marine start. The vent can cause an issue if you don't stick a turret in it though, which is damned hard to do at the best of times. I think if you just make each room a little further from each other with corridors, it will partly solve the performance problems, as well as making it more balanced, and less 'room->room->room'
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
edited August 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1866582:date=Aug 5 2011, 11:23 AM:name=Iacto)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Iacto @ Aug 5 2011, 11:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1866582"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think if you just make each room a little further from each other with corridors, it will partly solve the performance problems, as well as making it more balanced, and less 'room->room->room'<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not sure if it is that easy to do, but I agree that it would help a lot of things including possible siege range issues.
Anyway, I've improved the tram minimap for those able and willing to playtest tram gameplay, which should help a little to learn and judge the layout: <a href="http://www.xup.in/dl,16469865/ns2_tram.tga/" target="_blank">http://www.xup.in/dl,16469865/ns2_tram.tga/</a> Backup ns2_tram.tga in ns2/maps/overviews and replace it with the file above. Fixed transparency and removed all that skybox stuff from the minimap on the right side: <img src="http://i.imgur.com/x1CTR.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
If we were to extend the lengths of come corridors in Tram, the cut would probably be between Repair Room and Alien Expansion (will be renamed at some point), between the alien tram tunnel and Hub, and between Server Room and Operations/Elevator. This would increase the walk time to some tech points for Aliens but not marines, and give us some breathing space for changes to be made to Elevator Transfer (to address siege issues and other things).
We definitely eventually need to see more maps, so I can wait to see that start to happen. It's a certainly good idea to have current data on balance in multiple maps of varying types to rule out the map for any balance issues. Alien/Marine win ratio right now for instance could in at least a small part have some to do with our current map selection even.
PS: That's an amusing bug in the post above, the TSA needs to get to work researching the infantry armortal!
for the tram map the vent under the repair room needs to be fixed so marines can get out of there if they fall down also resize the part over by the corridor so skulks can get in and out again.
plus all of the missing textures need to be replaced or have there faces removed.
Comments
Yeah, doesn't seem fair the aliens get 2 res nodes basically in their starting room, while marines have to go quite a long ways to find a second res node.
This is resolved mostly by moving the main base to ME. This means you have MS and Repair nodes within walking distance, actually making the Marines able to get 3 early res nodes. It's just a matter of defending Repair, because it will get attacked. A lot.
Personally, I find the performance of Rockdown, Tram and Summit to be completely indifferent, with none performing to the standards of a AAA game, but not being entirely unplayable. I agree though, if UWE wants better feedback on Tram, they are going to need to up the performance of it for those who are experiencing problems.
We actually have some pretty big plans for Tram. One of the smaller things, though, is we are going to replace the techpoint in Marine Expansion with a res node. Server room is going to get a rework, as well, which probably will include the addition of a res node, as well.
--Cory
---------------------------------- better if all built doors work the same way, but some doors start unbuilt.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Valid point and a viable solution. I haven't had much time to actually get in the game lately but do you think it would be beneficial for doors to require power to engage/disengage locks?
In the game before that, alien commander wanted to fast second hive at marine expansion, and even though everyone was on the same page, the distance proved too great for us. We had the advantage of surprise for 25% of build progress by not chewing the power node, and we put up a fight, but in the end it wasn't a viable option. I would have liked to have more tests of what splitting infantry portals would do between two really close bases, but doing that in Summit actively killed my team, and with beacon on the way it won't matter.
I do know now that having 2 res nodes or two tech points really close together makes the map a totally different ball game from summit. Right now, everybody is fighting on the left side of the map, and there will be 1 or two people scouting around the entire rest of the map because it's absolutely vital for aliens that marines not hold repair room. If that happens, endgame is pretty much always flamers escorting an arc to each tech node. Tram hub is usually deserted, and I've never seen marines take interest in elevator transfer because with the server room, there's no reason to build a hive there until endgame, and for the marines, if it's not game-endingly urgent, you're securing repair room.
With the fixes mentioned, I believe Tram will be a fast tech map, with each team running the gamut of current upgrades at least twice as quickly as summit assuming both teams are competent, because the repair res nodes will be easy for marines to secure simultaneously and because the server room hive is the safest place on the map.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4mPcKckgjk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4mPcKckgjk</a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4mPcKckgjk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4mPcKckgjk</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showuser=19166" target="_blank">pSyk0mAn</a>
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=109792" target="_blank">Link to his thread on the mapping forum</a>
Possibly, but the trouble is that a lot of doors are on the edge of rooms and therefore, on the edge of power nodes, it may not be clear which node controls a door.
The infestation unlocking doors approach I think works better, as you can convey that easily with an infestated door texture and it's easy to see why it happened.
I love the layout in Tram, as it actually makes it feasible for the marines to relocate. If you relocate in summit anywhere, then you just get stomped because you're closer to the main hive than you want to be, one of my biggest problems with summit actually, that the main hive is closer to the tech points than the marines are, by a fair amount. Perhaps this could be where a lot of the gameplay issues stem from?
But in Tram if you relocate to Marine Expansion (which needs a new name, like holo-room or something), then you have easy defence of 4 resource points, rather than 1 or 2 in marine start. The vent can cause an issue if you don't stick a turret in it though, which is damned hard to do at the best of times. I think if you just make each room a little further from each other with corridors, it will partly solve the performance problems, as well as making it more balanced, and less 'room->room->room'
I somewhat enjoyed it in ns1, until players had bugs to abuse that prevented them working.
I'm not sure if it is that easy to do, but I agree that it would help a lot of things including possible siege range issues.
Anyway, I've improved the tram minimap for those able and willing to playtest tram gameplay, which should help a little to learn and judge the layout:
<a href="http://www.xup.in/dl,16469865/ns2_tram.tga/" target="_blank">http://www.xup.in/dl,16469865/ns2_tram.tga/</a>
Backup ns2_tram.tga in ns2/maps/overviews and replace it with the file above.
Fixed transparency and removed all that skybox stuff from the minimap on the right side:
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/x1CTR.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>
<a href="http://imgur.com/Y4iVZ" target="_blank"><img src="http://i.imgur.com/Y4iVZ.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
<a href="http://imgur.com/cM0GN" target="_blank"><img src="http://i.imgur.com/cM0GN.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
<a href="http://imgur.com/FounJ" target="_blank"><img src="http://i.imgur.com/FounJ.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
<a href="http://imgur.com/yPWlO" target="_blank"><img src="http://i.imgur.com/yPWlO.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
</span>
PS: That's an amusing bug in the post above, the TSA needs to get to work researching the infantry armortal!
the vent under the repair room needs to be fixed so marines can get out of there if they fall down also resize the part over by the corridor so skulks can get in and out again.
plus all of the missing textures need to be replaced or have there faces removed.