Honestly, I don't think skulks are too powerful for their cost, I do think that rifles are not good enough though. The truth is, skulks die a lot, the reason why marines lose out on that exchange is that the shotguns that can dominate skulks cost resources while the skulk does not, and without a shot gun, the marine has a much worse chance at fighting said skulk.
So you might wonder "why do you think the rifles not good enough versus the skulk being too good?" Simple, the rifle doesn't do that well against skulks, doesn't do well against fades, even gorges and lerks can sustain quite a bit of fire, with fairly ample time to retreat, before being killed. In most fights with the rifle I find myself constantly switching to the pistol to finish an enemy.
With a better rifle, or optimally a removal of the system of "bad weapon, better weapon, best weapon" and a change to "generalized weapon, close range weapon, suppression weapon, anti-structure weapon" you'll see a vanilla marine being as viable as a vanilla skulk later on.
The current game mechanic has a very weird set up where you essentially can supplant some degree of skill with upgrades in form or weapon, rather than different upgrades and load outs changing the way the game is played. In essence, the game gets easier with the new gun, not different.
As a side note, I also don't understand the point of armor and melee upgrades, if they're going to result in equilibrium later on aren't they basically a pointless task? It's not like they're optional choices, if your side doesn't get them while the enemy does you're typically just going to lose terribly anyhow. They seem like an unnecessary early game resources dump that really doesn't need to be there as it essentially just makes sure everything stays the same.
<!--quoteo(post=1865341:date=Aug 1 2011, 11:47 AM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Aug 1 2011, 11:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865341"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With a better rifle, or optimally a removal of the system of "bad weapon, better weapon, best weapon" and a change to "generalized weapon, close range weapon, suppression weapon, anti-structure weapon" you'll see a vanilla marine being as viable as a vanilla skulk later on.
The current game mechanic has a very weird set up where you essentially can supplant some degree of skill with upgrades in form or weapon, rather than different upgrades and load outs changing the way the game is played. In essence, the game gets easier with the new gun, not different.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
King CowJoin Date: 2011-07-28Member: 112663Members
How can you say Marines need MUCH better weapons at the start which are effective against everything to compete with Skulks and at the same time say Skulks are not over powerfull right now.
What you mean to say is Skulks are over powerfull right now but instead of them being made weaker you want marines to get a buff.
I think Dragon-Guard and Squidget have really hit the nail on the head in this thread and I agree. I assume this will be balanced later on when more content is added to Aliens but how things are now its becomming very tiring playing Marine and being told by fade players: ''Fade is not OP oh btw last game I got a 108:6 KD. Use team work and shotguns use your whole team on me for 30 mins and you might kill me if you get lucky once :D!''
Yes people have said this sort of thing to me in game 3 times now, the huge KD part and all. Seems like some of them also visit the forums :P
<!--quoteo(post=1865351:date=Aug 1 2011, 01:27 AM:name=King Cow)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (King Cow @ Aug 1 2011, 01:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865351"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How can you say Marines need MUCH better weapons at the start which are effective against everything to compete with Skulks and at the same time say Skulks are not over powerfull right now.
What you mean to say is Skulks are over powerfull right now but instead of them being made weaker you want marines to get a buff.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nope. You need to isolate the problem, they are not the same thing. If you nerf the skulk the skulk is worse against <b>everything.</b> If you buff the rifle is better against everything. It's not the same end result. A nerfed skulk will be worse against shotguns, flame throwers, grenades, sentry turrets, everything. The skulk doesn't need to be worse against those things. A buffed rifle will be better against everything including fades and skulks. The difference? The skulk won't be worse against flame throwers/shotguns with the buffed rifle, while the rifle will be better against the fades and skulks, not to mention other aliens. They are absolutely not interchangeable concepts and its absolutely not a matter of preference. The marines need a better LMG because the vanilla marine is frankly underwhelming against just about everything, not because the skulk is running around dominating everyone in the game no matter what gun they have. Is a skulk better than an LMG marine? Typically yes. Is a skulk better than a shotgun marine. Typically no. Is a skulk better than a flame thrower marine? Absolutely not. Is a skulk better than a grenade marine, maybe, the grenade adds a lot.
If the skulk was overpowered shouldn't the majority be "Typically yes." You have to identify the problem before you go out nerfing or buffing things. If a skulk was plain overpowered it should be too good no matter what weapon you were using, it's not. Thus the problem is obviously with the other side of the equation. Is the LMG good against the skulk? Not really, it's alright. Is the LMG good against the lerk? Again, not really, it's alright. Is the LMG good against the gorge? It's decent. Is the LMG good against the fade? Absolutely not.
The problem is with the rifle, not the skulk.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think Dragon-Guard and Squidget have really hit the nail on the head in this thread and I agree. I assume this will be balanced later on when more content is added to Aliens but how things are now its becomming very tiring playing Marine and being told by fade players: ''Fade is not OP oh btw last game I got a 108:6 KD. Use team work and shotguns use your whole team on me for 30 mins and you might kill me if you get lucky once :D!''
Yes people have said this sort of thing to me in game 3 times now, the huge KD part and all. Seems like some of them also visit the forums :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> How will nerfing the skulk improve your ability against the fade so its not "OP" anymore? Buffing the rifle however, will absolutely improve your ability against the fade, do you see where I'm going here. The problem is the rifle, not the skulk.
Squidget said "Problem 1: skulks are too powerful (for cost) Given equal skill and numbers, skulks at least match marines. In our games, skulks never ran alone, they always ran in packs of 2 or three, eliminating the theoretical marine squad advantage. Whenever marines pushed into an important area, skulks massed and and met in equal numbers. In general, skulks traded kills with marines pretty evenly. <b>Due to resource starvation, shotguns weren't sustainable.</b>"
Well you wouldn't be having resource starvation if the rifles were sufficient weapons now would you? You could run in with rifles for general combat and trade kills evenly without being forced to resort to shotguns to compete on better ground (Shotguns are very effective against skulks, so you really push ahead with them).
People don't go to the shotgun because the skulk is too good, they go there because the rifle isn't a very good weapon right now thus you need to upgrade immediately. You could argue that this means the skulk needs a nerf, but that doesn't address the fact the rifle simply struggles against enemies across the board, not just the skulk. Simply put, <b>address the problem, do not address symptoms of the problem. Target the issue with precision and fix it.</b> The number of games that devolve into a cycle of nerfs due to their inability or lack of desire to actually find the source problem is bad enough without adding NS2 to the list.
Better performance*, DISTRESS BEACON, mines, and maybe a little change to the lmg (or researchable upgrade) edit: self adjustable fov range in options (75 - 90)
*just played some rounds tf2 after a few ns2 matches. Tf2 is faster, but still its easier to aim and track movement - even with ok fps of around 40 in ns2 its like marines and aliens are more like warping than moving around smoothly... (so jumping around [especially as marines and skulks with the wall magnets] or fast direction changes are like minilags(in addition real "minilags"=> hughe fps drops occur for me in combat too very often, but whatever) and you lose track of your target)
<!--quoteo(post=1865199:date=Jul 31 2011, 03:00 PM:name=Dragon-Guard)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dragon-Guard @ Jul 31 2011, 03:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865199"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, i dont really get why some people are all hurr durr, there is no problem, l2p, yet they admit to having stalemates of their own. By just saying someone else's post is bull###### you dont get anywhere.
I think a problem is that marines are kind of squishy early game, extremely even (as a skulk i manage to take out 1-3 players in early game untill they get shotguns/armor/other upgrades.) Later marines get shotguns/armor and manage to get some ground, this turns back again if the aliens manage to trow down a hive and get fades (and i know everyone is saying you shouldn't even let them build a hive but it happens, a coordinated marine team can take down aliens and a hive, but a coordinated alien team can also easily counter this, esp early game. The thing is, as soon as aliens have fades marines get slaughtered most of the time. And even if you say "just have 2 shotgunners and a flamer and the fade is dead" that still takes 3 people to take down a single enemy, in a 6v6 thats 2 fades to keep an entire team busy, while the aliens still have 4 players free to do whatever. Lag and hit detection doesn't make it much better either, i played a round today in which for some reason me and 3 teammates on marine were shooting a fade for half a minute or more, 1 flamer, 1 shotgunner and 2 rifles, he was burning the entire time yet in the end we still died (although we did take the hive down), now you cant tell me that 4 people with different weapons cant aim at a single fade who cant even blink(although being healed by a hive), all this time, i had a 40ms ping and yet i was lagging like hell. Seeing how that fade managed to survive 4 players that long AND kill us i would say i was prob. not the only one not hitting ######, even though my aim was correct (and not CoD aim, CS and quake taught me better then that). So i would say performance is a MAYOR issue when it comes to marines getting their asses handed to them, esp versus fades
As a result marines get dominated like crazy if they leave the base, eventually stuck without ress for weapons, so, what happens? they start turtling their base because as soon as they leave they get shredded by fades and in return aliens cant move forward either because that close to the base the marines can actually defend thanks to for a change being faster to the battle field then an alien who died.
So most of the time when i play marine we get stuck in a loop of being pushed back, pushing back out, trying to take down the 3 expansions, maybe getting 1 or 2, being killed by an army of fades, slowly moving back from spawn to where ever you need to get but by that time the aliens have already reclaimed it and push you back again, repeat.
So, tldr. of my opinion on this. - preformance needs to be improved a lot - because the lag marines often miss bullets that they should have hit, same goes for skulks later in the game when marines can kill them easier because of higher firepower. - fades are, as it is now, a bit to powerful, needing 3 people to take down 1 enemy is a bit much to defend against in the middle of nowhere imo. - marines are/feel to slow to actually make fast aggressive pushes, by the time they make it half way across the map aliens can already spawn 2x (exaggerate maybe but you get the point) - the movement/shooting system doesn't make it much easier for marines (like the huge delays between repairing/running and shooting)
Also about the marines being slow compared to the aliens, your also able to feel this with building and such, esp at the start marines will need to do the building while aliens can run out to secure terrain/kill marines. Aliens generally also lose less buildings, or need less defenses because they can move faster across the map, thus being able to assault/defend easier them selfs, thus having more resources later in the game. So often im seeing 2-3 hives going up at once if we get pushed back a bit, so marines either have to split up with the risk of being unable to survive an attack, or go as a group but with the slow speed by that time at least 1 hive should have already finished building.
just my 2cents on this topic. All of this is based on pub games ofc, but regardless of what pro teams can do, if average vs average players cant do it its just not right. People of equal skill vs people of equal skill should have the same chances, whether they are pro or noob.
(sorry for the wall of text, half of it prob doesnt make snese but its my opinion non the less and I'm tired as hell so didn't reread)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gah back with griping about fades again, they are fine get over it. I and many others have no issues killing them, k/d means nothing as they are supposed to use guerrilla tactics to survive thus generally not dying if its a good fade player... the down time with them is plenty long enough for marines to counter them when jp's, etc are in.
The LMG ends up not really having a nitch anywhere, you only use it because you have to generally, unlike skulk where it can actually be used at any point in the game if you want to, with reasonable effectiveness even late-game. LMG needs to be brought into line with the other weapons, without sending grenade rifle completely out of wack of course.
King CowJoin Date: 2011-07-28Member: 112663Members
edited August 2011
MaGicBush the down time for a fade is tiny as he can warp back to a base to get healing or use another player. Why do people think that KD does not matter? Are we playing another game because in my NS2 game players are rewarded for kills with better weapons and upgrades. Also while these people are dead they are not doing much for their team and they will be having a much longer 'down time' returning to the fight than you have getting healed between fights.
KD IS IMPORTANT.
I guess the problem as I have said in the other thread is if aliens were balanced then I can really see sentry guns being so powerfull aliens will lose 80%+ of games.
edit
Also its just not fun to be killed over and over and over again by a invisible/tank/assassin with no weakness I can see the whole game. There is a reason in most otehr games assassins are glass cannons.
Honestly, Kills/second is probably more important unless you're facing solely against enemies who deny kills (fades.) In the end, a fade with a hundred pres in the current build is still only a fade, not a super fade or anything. The big thing with deaths is that it's pretty much the only "pres drain" 3/4 alien classes have (same with marines of course, but there situation is different right now because they just get more offensively powerful, not directly tougher to kill.)
With how hard Fades are to kill you're hard pressed to really kill one and reduce their res to below fade level so you can advance. I expect it will change in the future but there currently isn't really a "fade killer" weapon like the shotgun is to the skulk, the flame thrower will send it running, yes, but running and dead are vastly different in the end.
<!--quoteo(post=1865376:date=Aug 1 2011, 07:51 AM:name=King Cow)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (King Cow @ Aug 1 2011, 07:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865376"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->MaGicBush the down time for a fade is tiny as he can warp back to a base to get healing or use another player. Why do people think that KD does not matter? Are we playing another game because in my NS2 game players are rewarded for kills with better weapons and upgrades. Also while these people are dead they are not doing much for their team and they will be having a much longer 'down time' returning to the fight than you have getting healed between fighting.
KD IS IMPORTANT.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No it's not for a fade, your missing the point here. Fade's are made to use stealth-based tactics, they blink in and blink out of a base killing one or two marines. They are made so that they wont die in this short time unless a well coordinated marine team is waiting for it, certain weapons work fine and I have no issues killing them(sg's and flames). I honestly think at the moment at least the problem is not the fade is over powered, but simply players do not know how to kill them properly. I am constantly seeing people just trying to use the rifle on them and whine when they do not die.
Also on top of that even, marines have no endgame so it's hard to say something is overpowered when the game is not even finished yet. When marines get jetpacks, exosuits, etc it will be much easier to kill the fade.
NS1 fades were similiar, it was not uncommon to see a fade player with a 4:1 k/d ratio.
King CowJoin Date: 2011-07-28Member: 112663Members
edited August 2011
Flamers just make fades run away, get heald and just come back again. Ive seen fades take on a group of 3-4 marines with 2 flamers MANY times and not have a problem.
Are you guys saying a marine with a kd of 5:1 has more kills per second than a fade with 40:1? there are MANY games where fades are getting this sort of score and sometimes more than one fade.
I am commander many times and I would say for marines to really have a chance to kill a fade and not have it just run away, or push past a fade into a room you would need: 3-5 marines 2 flamers, 2-3 sentry guns an armory and maybe a phase gate near by. Thats to deal with 1-2 aliens how is this balance.
There is a good reason why in most games the assassin type is a glass cannon, in this game he is an assassin/ teleporting wizard and a TANK. If fades not OP someone please tell me their weakness, as I said its not really flamers (which are not cheap and not mid game items unless rushed) and if you need 3+ people to kill 1 alien then thats not a weakness, it just means they dont have god mode.
I have seen 1 marine take on a fade and win solo maybe 3 times (not a very good fade players we can assume) But its very rare, you need a great marine player and a bad fade player (why did they not just run away?) and it happens once every 5 game at most, more like every 8. So its very rare and does not really mean very much. . I edited my last comment btw.
<!--quoteo(post=1865374:date=Aug 1 2011, 05:49 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Aug 1 2011, 05:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865374"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The rifle is fine. I prefer it for shooting skulks early game now that they don't have leap.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hive 2, I have leap back, rifle sucks again, it doesn't scale with the skulk despite both being free. Compared to the effectiveness of the skulk after both have tier 2 where unless you're approaching from a terrible angle the marine is dead with a rifle so it isn't quite fine, i could be worse, but it feels off and likely needs a bump in my opinion.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is a good reason why in most games the assassin type is a glass cannon, in this game he is an assassin/ teleporting wizard and a TANK. If fades not OP someone please tell me their weakness, as I said its not really flamers (which are not cheap and not mid game items unless rushed) and if you need 3+ people to kill 1 alien then thats not a weakness, it just measn they dont have god mode.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And the best part is, if you are not a greedy stupid suicide fade or had some bad luck(and the rest of your team doesnt complealty suck, which shouldnt be since you were able to get a 2nd hive) you can maintain to go fade the rest of the game.(at least it happened to me relative often that i can refade again (sometimes i could even 2 times=> over 80res) after i die for the first time)
PS: their "weakness" is 1flamethrower and 2+ shotgunners if they only solo rambo, and fail to manage their energy. :P (if aliens group up you are f*d)
but usually you can always escape, <3 godmode blink without base energy cost
When people play as Marines do they keep a distance from each other?
Because as I see it marines have a better chance, when keeping a distance from each other and shooting skulks at range then grouping up and becoming a clusterf*** when skulks attack and everyone is blocking each other and to busy swinging the mouse around and (sometimes) jumping around. I find Skulks/Gorges/Lerks completely weak at range and 9 out of 10 times a Marine will demolish the alien life forms except for fades, BUT, the performance issues and lag does make it alot harder for marines at CQC, therefore possible culprit of alien dominance.
Fades give you 30 personal res if you kill them. If a fade killed a marine 6 times, and a marine killed that fade on the seventh try, they'd break even.
I just played a depressing game; we rushed surface access at the beginning, we hold it for a while but at some point the aliens managed to drop the hive. We took it down with the first shotgun rush, in a nicely orchestrated attack. As the first hive was dying the aliens dropped a second hive in heliport, we gathered up in marine main and pushed the second hive. As it was defended by hydras, the attack took some time and the hive completed for a few moment allowing two fades two spawn. We finally managed to take everything down, fades, hydras and hive. Then the aliens dropped a third hive in surface access. I spare you the details but we pretty much gg'ed out of the game.
So the problem seems to be : hive spam. The hives killed us, not the fades or the skulks.
<!--quoteo(post=1865341:date=Aug 1 2011, 06:47 AM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Aug 1 2011, 06:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865341"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly, I don't think skulks are too powerful for their cost, I do think that rifles are not good enough though. The truth is, skulks die a lot, the reason why marines lose out on that exchange is that the shotguns that can dominate skulks cost resources while the skulk does not, and without a shot gun, the marine has a much worse chance at fighting said skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good call azimaith, and I definitely agree. The rifle is pretty awful, and that is a huge problem all game.
I probably could have worded my post better. I wasn't suggesting skulks get nerfed, I offered no solutions. I just stated WHY I think marines lose.
But turning to that topic, I'd be REALLY careful about boosting the rifle too much. Skulks are all the aliens have early game, so they still have to be effective.
----
Frankly, I think any talk of beacons, or how good Fades are, or any other 2nd-tier feature, is missing the point. The game is usually over by midgame, if we are being honest.
If Beacon require Obs, and then a research unlock, it's going to be just like the Phase Gate: too little, too late. So don't look to beacons to save your bacon :).
The problem isn't midgame, its early game. Put simply, marines need a reliable way to take and hold at least 1 tech point, 1 RT, AND (very important) still be able to defend everything. They need to be able to do this vs. an equally skilled alien team, and they need to do it with roughly the same investment in money and time. This is RTS theory 101.
To use RTS lingo, if the game is balanced, you should at least be able to hold your main AND take your natural expansion. There's NO way an equal opponent should be able to keep you in your main.
<!--quoteo(post=1865535:date=Aug 1 2011, 06:07 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Aug 1 2011, 06:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865535"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So the problem seems to be : hive spam. The hives killed us, not the fades or the skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You confuse symptom and cause.
Hive spamming is a symptom. Hives ARE expensive, aliens can only spam them when they are dominating the game.
The CAUSE is that... well, aliens are dominating the ECON game. They aren't spending any money on tech, just banking it up. So when you DO knock down the hive, they can afford to put one back up. They can outspend you.
And you obviously had no MAP control. Because when marines DO have map control, they drop CCs on every tech spot they take, and aliens can't spam hives anyway.
It ain't the hive's fault. It's everything else. And hive spamming is really a mid-to-late game tactic anyway, the game was lost long before.
Well we took down the first hive just after shotgun research finished, so it was pretty early game. And we did have some map control at the beginning (trying to hold sa and heli). Then the whole team has to go from one hive to another to take it down, so there is not much strategic choice.
Never seen the cc spam really, but I don't think we had any res or time to do it. But yes something is obviously wrong with res system that lead to hive spam.
<!--quoteo(post=1865541:date=Aug 1 2011, 11:17 PM:name=Squidget)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squidget @ Aug 1 2011, 11:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865541"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You confuse symptom and cause.
Hive spamming is a symptom. Hives ARE expensive, aliens can only spam them when they are dominating the game.
The CAUSE is that... well, aliens are dominating the ECON game. They aren't spending any money on tech, just banking it up. So when you DO knock down the hive, they can afford to put one back up. They can outspend you.
And you obviously had no MAP control. Because when marines DO have map control, they drop CCs on every tech spot they take, and aliens can't spam hives anyway.
It ain't the hive's fault. It's everything else. And hive spamming is really a mid-to-late game tactic anyway, the game was lost long before.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think that's quite true. Hive spamming is a problem. Unless the marines completely lock down tech points with numerous sentry guns then the aliens can just go from point to point putting up a new hive. Placing CCs on the tech points does nothing, they cost 20 res and aliens can take them down easily without any defence. If your team are defending 1 tech point, they can place a hive at another. By the time you've locked down 1 point the next hive will be up, so you need to keep chasing the hives before they get built.
I just finished a game where we won as marines but only after taking down 6-7 hives, and the game only lasted 40 mins or so. Our team went from hive to hive taking them down and the aliens had enough res for upgrades and hives (from only 3 RTs). Every time we killed a hive, they had a drifter waiting at another point on the map. While we were killing that hive, a skulk or two was taking out our buildings at the other tech point. It's easy to say, build a CC, build loads of sentries, but we really didn't have that much res to spare - after upgrades, phase gates etc.
We finally got their main hive by building a ninja phase gate near it and having the whole team go through with nade launchers. If the aliens had managed to get a hive up, then once the fades came out we would have be pushed back to our base and forced to turtle or give in.
IMO, placing a hive should be a bigger investment for the aliens and when you take it down it should be quite a while before they can build a new one.
<!--quoteo(post=1865570:date=Aug 1 2011, 07:42 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Aug 1 2011, 07:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865570"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just finished a game where we won as marines but only after taking down 6-7 hives, and the game only lasted 40 mins or so. Our team went from hive to hive taking them down and the aliens had enough res for upgrades and hives (from only 3 RTs). Every time we killed a hive, they had a drifter waiting at another point on the map. While we were killing that hive, a skulk or two was taking out our buildings at the other tech point. It's easy to say, build a CC, build loads of sentries, but we really didn't have that much res to spare - after upgrades, phase gates etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, that's not the Hive's fault. What you describe is EXACTLY lack of map control and being out ECONed.
Let's do the math. A hive costs 50 (the most expensive thing in the game). It requires a fragile drifter to travel across the map. It takes exactly 3 minutes to build, damn near forever. An RT generates one TRes every 8 seconds. If aliens have 3 RTs, that's 50 res every 2 minutes, 13 seconds. Also a long time. Conversely, a CC costs 20, less than half that, and you don't even need to build it. Just place it to block the hive. If you have macs, go ahead and build it so you can recycle it when it gets severely damaged, and you even get some cash back.
If you REALLY were winning, you could afford to pay a 20 to 50 ratio, couldn't you?
If you REALLY had map control, you could stop the drifters, and kill the skulks. It takes FOREVER for a skulk to bite down a CC.
If you were REALLY winning, you could certainly kill that hive inside of the 3 minutes it takes to build, even if they got it started. 4 shotgun marines can down a hive in less than 60 seconds.
If you can't keep one or two skulks out of a base, that room is not controlled. If aliens can put up a hive every 2 min, and you can't build a lousy CC, you are losing the econ battle. If aliens are running 3 RTs, you are not winning.
As you described it, you WERE NOT winning. You knocked down a hive, but couldn't close the deal. You were treading water, and there's absolutely no reason the aliens shouldn't be able to recover. If the aliens are dominating econ like that, and can sneak drifters into your tech points, then they SHOULD be able to drop a hive.
Just like marines can spam the crap out of sentries, ARCs, PGs, etc., if they have an econ advantage.
If anything, a rich marine team is a LOT more dangerous then a rich alien team. Sentries, Flamers, GLs, Armories, ARCs, and PGs everywhere. MACs building crap all over the map. They can leverage their cash far more effectively than Aliens in the late game. All aliens can do is drop a silly hive, basically just stalling. No, the core problem is that Marines never get rich.
It's the fact that the marines are absolute crap at map control, so can't protect their bases. It's the fact that the marines are absolute crap at econ, so aliens always have more money. It's the fact that marines typically enter late game with 0 TRes and 1 RT, and aliens typically have 300+ TRes and 3+ RTs.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
I also have to wonder if part of the problem is inherent to the wonky control system (see <a href="http://getsatisfaction.com/unknownworlds/topics/fundamental_problem_with_hit_detection_identified" target="_blank">this</a> for example). Things such as changing weapons or tracking targets have an inherent delay, unrelated to lag, that makes NS2 controls appear sluggish compared to other fps. I suspect this affects marines more so than aliens because precise targeting becomes less of an issue the closer you are to the target (i.e. the target becomes bigger on your screen and why the shotgun and alien melee seem more effective than marine ranged and lerk weapons).
King CowJoin Date: 2011-07-28Member: 112663Members
Squidget remember that aliens only need a part time commander to build and not players while marines need to be in location to build most things and defend (aliens normally have ALLOT more points to rebuild lost buildings so defence is less important). Also remember that most people who say aliens are not unbalanced tell us to rush their hives to advoid fades.
So tell me how do marines expand and defend while at the same time trying to ninja the hives?
Also someone mentioned the marine to fade cost ratio and that you need to kill 6 marines for every fade (so the kd is not so bad). You forgot to take into account the cost of the weapons the marines drop and the areas of the map that might be lost. How many buildings and power nodes are lost? (also the down time they have getting back into the fight)
No at the moment if marines win its because the alien team is incompetent or has a few less players and it does not have allot to do with the marine players skill unless you really have a player who is godly with the shotgun. (how does anyone manage to hit anything reliably with the lag I have no idea)
But ill say again IMOP aliens need to be a bit stronger because otherwise how do they deal with sentry guns right now? But the thread topic is asking why marines lose right now and the answer is that aliens really are just much better over all in many aspects of the game. Im just really tired of people telling marines to learn how to play and use team work (somehow they think its fine aliens need next to no team work unless attacking the marine base, mean while marines need godly team work all game).
Just say fades are over powerd but its beta/will be patched/its to counter sentry guns stop the bulls**t (mostly this is a problem in game chat not the forums). As if all your team dieing 25 times over and over again to a flying invisible healing tank assassin, being camped in your base and being ninja killed at the palyer spawn in the middle of your base and having the fade just walk out while on fire and most of your team trying to kill it was not annoying enouth already.
<!--quoteo(post=1865629:date=Aug 2 2011, 07:42 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Aug 2 2011, 07:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865629"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I also have to wonder if part of the problem is inherent to the wonky control system (see <a href="http://getsatisfaction.com/unknownworlds/topics/fundamental_problem_with_hit_detection_identified" target="_blank">this</a> for example). Things such as changing weapons or tracking targets have an inherent delay, unrelated to lag, that makes NS2 controls appear sluggish compared to other fps. I suspect this affects marines more so than aliens because precise targeting becomes less of an issue the closer you are to the target (i.e. the target becomes bigger on your screen and why the shotgun and alien melee seem more effective than marine ranged and lerk weapons).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well in the game I'm referring to most marines players had decent kill/death ratio (2:1). We were able to kill aliens all right, and we were welding each other, covering, moving together, and so on.
I my opinion :
- The aliens should be able to drop the second hive in most games (i.e. the marines should not be able to snipe drifter and build blocking cc all day).
- If the marines manage to take the second hive it should hurt the aliens (shouldn't be game over though).
- If the marines manage to take down two hives in a row it should be a big blow to the alien team.
I'm really liking the rifle buff idea, should make the combat a lot more in the marines' favour. Until they updated it so that cysts didn't need line of sight (unless I dreamt that), it was very hard for an alien team to get a third RT up, but now it's far too easy to get and keep them. I think there are a few fundamental problems however, although late game doesn't actually exist yet, so we're just talking about midgame. One thing that would need to be done with the rifle buff however, is not make it do any more damage against buildings, possibly even make it do less than it currently does. That's what shotguns and axes are for, rifles to protect, or add a little if no one is around.
Another big problem is the map. Summit was built waaaaay back in 173, and was designed around balance at that time. It's a lovely map, but I really don't think it's balanced for the current state of the game. So I think there should be a couple of changes in the actual map. Firstly, move the crevice RT to the other side of crevice, where UWE put that bit that goes back in the direction of heliport. This would make it much harder for aliens to get a third RT up until their second hive is complete, also it's an easier area for the marines to defend as it only has two access points (underneath and forwards). Secondly, marine start has been awfully designed. A skulk (unless the marine comm wastes 10 res putting a sentry here) can attack the command chair without being seen or shot from anyone inside the base, and even if you're in the chair, you can't shoot the skulk if you leave, you have to walk around the side. I've been in far too many games that have ended because of this, I think marine start needs a complete redesign to stop this happening. Thirdly, it only makes sense for the Aliens to take Surface Access with their second hive, because it's so close. Either move it further away, or make it more reasonable to take crossroads or heliport.
But I guess we'll have to wait until after the next patch to discuss this again, see how different it is.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you REALLY were winning, you could afford to pay a 20 to 50 ratio, couldn't you?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. The marines need to spend much more res than aliens to tech up. Getting upgrades, phase gates and advanced weapons requires a lot of res. I will try building CCs in another game and see how it goes, but I don't think it would have worked. A couple of skulks or a lerk or two would easily take it out while marines are over the other side of the map (that already happened with our other buildings in that game).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you REALLY had map control, you could stop the drifters, and kill the skulks. It takes FOREVER for a skulk to bite down a CC.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
At the moment it is very difficult for the marines to have map control over the aliens without spamming sentries and locking areas down completely. The alien team just has a big movement speed advantage and it's not a big deal for them to run across the map. If we had kept marines at the other tech points, or if we had sent marines there once they were being attacked then the chances of us taking down the hive would have decreased and that was too risky IMO.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you were REALLY winning, you could certainly kill that hive inside of the 3 minutes it takes to build, even if they got it started. 4 shotgun marines can down a hive in less than 60 seconds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, most of the time we did. I think you're underestimating the difficulty of it though. First you need to scout it, then you need to get your troops to come from other parts of the map and group together to push in. You also need to fight off the aliens during all of this. Few alien teams will just let you walk into the hive freely.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you can't keep one or two skulks out of a base, that room is not controlled. If aliens can put up a hive every 2 min, and you can't build a lousy CC, you are losing the econ battle. If aliens are running 3 RTs, you are not winning.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How do you control a room when your team is over the opposite side of the map shooting a hive?
We killed 1-2 of their RTs when we could. Again, it's hard to spread your troops out over the map and attack/defend multiple places at once, while also trying to attack new hives before they get built.
Perhaps, you're right. Maybe we were losing that whole game and somehow managed to win after killing 7 hives. It sure didn't feel like it though.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's the fact that the marines are absolute crap at map control, so can't protect their bases. It's the fact that the marines are absolute crap at econ, so aliens always have more money. It's the fact that marines typically enter late game with 0 TRes and 1 RT, and aliens typically have 300+ TRes and 3+ RTs.
It's not the hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hive spamming is a problem because of those things. The marines are slower and it's harder for them to control the map, they also need to spend more res than the alien team to tech up. Aliens don't have much to spend the res on so after a few upgrades they are free to just save for hives, and continue spamming them relentlessly until the marine team completely locks down the entire map with sentry guns or kills them off.
As the marine team you always feel like you are being reactive to the alien team. It feels like you're on the back foot even when you do manage to do damage to them.
I dont think marines are a <i>lot</i> worse than aliens right now, but they lose disproportionately for a number of reasons:
1) A good commander is a lot more important for marines than aliens, and the majority of people cannot comm 2) New players are immediately drawn to marines (because they appear [but aren't] more straightforward) 3) Bad marines feeding aliens makes a MUCH bigger difference than aliens feeding marines 4) On summit aliens can hit two very vicious timings; +1 melee with frenzy, then the fast uninterrupted second (usually surface, but heli is also extremely safe a lot of the time) which leads to fed aliens (usually 3+ since lerk is a niche choice in 183) instantly fading with frenzy before marine armor prevents 2HK 5) Bad commanders ADORE turrets and turrets seem to destroy server performance faster than any other object, and marines suffer from server performance a lot more than aliens.
Some suggestions are to make frenzy more expensive, make fades cost 60 pres, lower the arms lab cost to 15 tres and to completely redesign turrets so that they use some sort of sorcery
<!--quoteo(post=1865463:date=Aug 1 2011, 06:16 PM:name=kaffaljidhma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kaffaljidhma @ Aug 1 2011, 06:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865463"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fades give you 30 personal res if you kill them. If a fade killed a marine 6 times, and a marine killed that fade on the seventh try, they'd break even.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, you get 30 points. Not sure why we need those, but they do nothing except look big (or not) on your scoreboard.
Comments
So you might wonder "why do you think the rifles not good enough versus the skulk being too good?"
Simple, the rifle doesn't do that well against skulks, doesn't do well against fades, even gorges and lerks can sustain quite a bit of fire, with fairly ample time to retreat, before being killed. In most fights with the rifle I find myself constantly switching to the pistol to finish an enemy.
With a better rifle, or optimally a removal of the system of "bad weapon, better weapon, best weapon" and a change to "generalized weapon, close range weapon, suppression weapon, anti-structure weapon" you'll see a vanilla marine being as viable as a vanilla skulk later on.
The current game mechanic has a very weird set up where you essentially can supplant some degree of skill with upgrades in form or weapon, rather than different upgrades and load outs changing the way the game is played. In essence, the game gets easier with the new gun, not different.
As a side note, I also don't understand the point of armor and melee upgrades, if they're going to result in equilibrium later on aren't they basically a pointless task? It's not like they're optional choices, if your side doesn't get them while the enemy does you're typically just going to lose terribly anyhow. They seem like an unnecessary early game resources dump that really doesn't need to be there as it essentially just makes sure everything stays the same.
The current game mechanic has a very weird set up where you essentially can supplant some degree of skill with upgrades in form or weapon, rather than different upgrades and load outs changing the way the game is played. In essence, the game gets easier with the new gun, not different.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really agree
What you mean to say is Skulks are over powerfull right now but instead of them being made weaker you want marines to get a buff.
I think Dragon-Guard and Squidget have really hit the nail on the head in this thread and I agree. I assume this will be balanced later on when more content is added to Aliens but how things are now its becomming very tiring playing Marine and being told by fade players: ''Fade is not OP oh btw last game I got a 108:6 KD. Use team work and shotguns use your whole team on me for 30 mins and you might kill me if you get lucky once :D!''
Yes people have said this sort of thing to me in game 3 times now, the huge KD part and all. Seems like some of them also visit the forums :P
What you mean to say is Skulks are over powerfull right now but instead of them being made weaker you want marines to get a buff.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nope. You need to isolate the problem, they are not the same thing. If you nerf the skulk the skulk is worse against <b>everything.</b> If you buff the rifle is better against everything. It's not the same end result. A nerfed skulk will be worse against shotguns, flame throwers, grenades, sentry turrets, everything. The skulk doesn't need to be worse against those things. A buffed rifle will be better against everything including fades and skulks. The difference? The skulk won't be worse against flame throwers/shotguns with the buffed rifle, while the rifle will be better against the fades and skulks, not to mention other aliens. They are absolutely not interchangeable concepts and its absolutely not a matter of preference. The marines need a better LMG because the vanilla marine is frankly underwhelming against just about everything, not because the skulk is running around dominating everyone in the game no matter what gun they have.
Is a skulk better than an LMG marine? Typically yes.
Is a skulk better than a shotgun marine. Typically no.
Is a skulk better than a flame thrower marine? Absolutely not.
Is a skulk better than a grenade marine, maybe, the grenade adds a lot.
If the skulk was overpowered shouldn't the majority be "Typically yes." You have to identify the problem before you go out nerfing or buffing things. If a skulk was plain overpowered it should be too good no matter what weapon you were using, it's not. Thus the problem is obviously with the other side of the equation.
Is the LMG good against the skulk? Not really, it's alright.
Is the LMG good against the lerk? Again, not really, it's alright.
Is the LMG good against the gorge? It's decent.
Is the LMG good against the fade? Absolutely not.
The problem is with the rifle, not the skulk.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think Dragon-Guard and Squidget have really hit the nail on the head in this thread and I agree. I assume this will be balanced later on when more content is added to Aliens but how things are now its becomming very tiring playing Marine and being told by fade players: ''Fade is not OP oh btw last game I got a 108:6 KD. Use team work and shotguns use your whole team on me for 30 mins and you might kill me if you get lucky once :D!''
Yes people have said this sort of thing to me in game 3 times now, the huge KD part and all. Seems like some of them also visit the forums :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How will nerfing the skulk improve your ability against the fade so its not "OP" anymore? Buffing the rifle however, will absolutely improve your ability against the fade, do you see where I'm going here. The problem is the rifle, not the skulk.
Squidget said "Problem 1: skulks are too powerful (for cost)
Given equal skill and numbers, skulks at least match marines. In our games, skulks never ran alone, they always ran in packs of 2 or three, eliminating the theoretical marine squad advantage. Whenever marines pushed into an important area, skulks massed and and met in equal numbers. In general, skulks traded kills with marines pretty evenly. <b>Due to resource starvation, shotguns weren't sustainable.</b>"
Well you wouldn't be having resource starvation if the rifles were sufficient weapons now would you? You could run in with rifles for general combat and trade kills evenly without being forced to resort to shotguns to compete on better ground (Shotguns are very effective against skulks, so you really push ahead with them).
People don't go to the shotgun because the skulk is too good, they go there because the rifle isn't a very good weapon right now thus you need to upgrade immediately. You could argue that this means the skulk needs a nerf, but that doesn't address the fact the rifle simply struggles against enemies across the board, not just the skulk. Simply put, <b>address the problem, do not address symptoms of the problem. Target the issue with precision and fix it.</b> The number of games that devolve into a cycle of nerfs due to their inability or lack of desire to actually find the source problem is bad enough without adding NS2 to the list.
edit: self adjustable fov range in options (75 - 90)
*just played some rounds tf2 after a few ns2 matches. Tf2 is faster, but still its easier to aim and track movement - even with ok fps of around 40 in ns2 its like marines and aliens are more like warping than moving around smoothly... (so jumping around [especially as marines and skulks with the wall magnets] or fast direction changes are like minilags(in addition real "minilags"=> hughe fps drops occur for me in combat too very often, but whatever) and you lose track of your target)
By just saying someone else's post is bull###### you dont get anywhere.
I think a problem is that marines are kind of squishy early game, extremely even (as a skulk i manage to take out 1-3 players in early game untill they get shotguns/armor/other upgrades.)
Later marines get shotguns/armor and manage to get some ground, this turns back again if the aliens manage to trow down a hive and get fades (and i know everyone is saying you shouldn't even let them build a hive but it happens, a coordinated marine team can take down aliens and a hive, but a coordinated alien team can also easily counter this, esp early game.
The thing is, as soon as aliens have fades marines get slaughtered most of the time.
And even if you say "just have 2 shotgunners and a flamer and the fade is dead" that still takes 3 people to take down a single enemy, in a 6v6 thats 2 fades to keep an entire team busy, while the aliens still have 4 players free to do whatever.
Lag and hit detection doesn't make it much better either, i played a round today in which for some reason me and 3 teammates on marine were shooting a fade for half a minute or more, 1 flamer, 1 shotgunner and 2 rifles, he was burning the entire time yet in the end we still died (although we did take the hive down), now you cant tell me that 4 people with different weapons cant aim at a single fade who cant even blink(although being healed by a hive), all this time, i had a 40ms ping and yet i was lagging like hell.
Seeing how that fade managed to survive 4 players that long AND kill us i would say i was prob. not the only one not hitting ######, even though my aim was correct (and not CoD aim, CS and quake taught me better then that).
So i would say performance is a MAYOR issue when it comes to marines getting their asses handed to them, esp versus fades
As a result marines get dominated like crazy if they leave the base, eventually stuck without ress for weapons, so, what happens? they start turtling their base because as soon as they leave they get shredded by fades and in return aliens cant move forward either because that close to the base the marines can actually defend thanks to for a change being faster to the battle field then an alien who died.
So most of the time when i play marine we get stuck in a loop of being pushed back, pushing back out, trying to take down the 3 expansions, maybe getting 1 or 2, being killed by an army of fades, slowly moving back from spawn to where ever you need to get but by that time the aliens have already reclaimed it and push you back again, repeat.
So, tldr. of my opinion on this.
- preformance needs to be improved a lot
- because the lag marines often miss bullets that they should have hit, same goes for skulks later in the game when marines can kill them easier because of higher firepower.
- fades are, as it is now, a bit to powerful, needing 3 people to take down 1 enemy is a bit much to defend against in the middle of nowhere imo.
- marines are/feel to slow to actually make fast aggressive pushes, by the time they make it half way across the map aliens can already spawn 2x (exaggerate maybe but you get the point)
- the movement/shooting system doesn't make it much easier for marines (like the huge delays between repairing/running and shooting)
Also about the marines being slow compared to the aliens, your also able to feel this with building and such, esp at the start marines will need to do the building while aliens can run out to secure terrain/kill marines.
Aliens generally also lose less buildings, or need less defenses because they can move faster across the map, thus being able to assault/defend easier them selfs, thus having more resources later in the game.
So often im seeing 2-3 hives going up at once if we get pushed back a bit, so marines either have to split up with the risk of being unable to survive an attack, or go as a group but with the slow speed by that time at least 1 hive should have already finished building.
just my 2cents on this topic.
All of this is based on pub games ofc, but regardless of what pro teams can do, if average vs average players cant do it its just not right.
People of equal skill vs people of equal skill should have the same chances, whether they are pro or noob.
(sorry for the wall of text, half of it prob doesnt make snese but its my opinion non the less and I'm tired as hell so didn't reread)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gah back with griping about fades again, they are fine get over it. I and many others have no issues killing them, k/d means nothing as they are supposed to use guerrilla tactics to survive thus generally not dying if its a good fade player... the down time with them is plenty long enough for marines to counter them when jp's, etc are in.
The LMG ends up not really having a nitch anywhere, you only use it because you have to generally, unlike skulk where it can actually be used at any point in the game if you want to, with reasonable effectiveness even late-game. LMG needs to be brought into line with the other weapons, without sending grenade rifle completely out of wack of course.
KD IS IMPORTANT.
I guess the problem as I have said in the other thread is if aliens were balanced then I can really see sentry guns being so powerfull aliens will lose 80%+ of games.
edit
Also its just not fun to be killed over and over and over again by a invisible/tank/assassin with no weakness I can see the whole game. There is a reason in most otehr games assassins are glass cannons.
With how hard Fades are to kill you're hard pressed to really kill one and reduce their res to below fade level so you can advance. I expect it will change in the future but there currently isn't really a "fade killer" weapon like the shotgun is to the skulk, the flame thrower will send it running, yes, but running and dead are vastly different in the end.
KD IS IMPORTANT.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No it's not for a fade, your missing the point here. Fade's are made to use stealth-based tactics, they blink in and blink out of a base killing one or two marines. They are made so that they wont die in this short time unless a well coordinated marine team is waiting for it, certain weapons work fine and I have no issues killing them(sg's and flames). I honestly think at the moment at least the problem is not the fade is over powered, but simply players do not know how to kill them properly. I am constantly seeing people just trying to use the rifle on them and whine when they do not die.
Also on top of that even, marines have no endgame so it's hard to say something is overpowered when the game is not even finished yet. When marines get jetpacks, exosuits, etc it will be much easier to kill the fade.
NS1 fades were similiar, it was not uncommon to see a fade player with a 4:1 k/d ratio.
Are you guys saying a marine with a kd of 5:1 has more kills per second than a fade with 40:1? there are MANY games where fades are getting this sort of score and sometimes more than one fade.
I am commander many times and I would say for marines to really have a chance to kill a fade and not have it just run away, or push past a fade into a room you would need: 3-5 marines 2 flamers, 2-3 sentry guns an armory and maybe a phase gate near by. Thats to deal with 1-2 aliens how is this balance.
There is a good reason why in most games the assassin type is a glass cannon, in this game he is an assassin/ teleporting wizard and a TANK.
If fades not OP someone please tell me their weakness, as I said its not really flamers (which are not cheap and not mid game items unless rushed) and if you need 3+ people to kill 1 alien then thats not a weakness, it just means they dont have god mode.
I have seen 1 marine take on a fade and win solo maybe 3 times (not a very good fade players we can assume) But its very rare, you need a great marine player and a bad fade player (why did they not just run away?) and it happens once every 5 game at most, more like every 8. So its very rare and does not really mean very much.
.
I edited my last comment btw.
Hive 2, I have leap back, rifle sucks again, it doesn't scale with the skulk despite both being free. Compared to the effectiveness of the skulk after both have tier 2 where unless you're approaching from a terrible angle the marine is dead with a rifle so it isn't quite fine, i could be worse, but it feels off and likely needs a bump in my opinion.
If fades not OP someone please tell me their weakness, as I said its not really flamers (which are not cheap and not mid game items unless rushed) and if you need 3+ people to kill 1 alien then thats not a weakness, it just measn they dont have god mode.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And the best part is, if you are not a greedy stupid suicide fade or had some bad luck(and the rest of your team doesnt complealty suck, which shouldnt be since you were able to get a 2nd hive) you can maintain to go fade the rest of the game.(at least it happened to me relative often that i can refade again (sometimes i could even 2 times=> over 80res) after i die for the first time)
PS: their "weakness" is 1flamethrower and 2+ shotgunners if they only solo rambo, and fail to manage their energy. :P (if aliens group up you are f*d)
but usually you can always escape, <3 godmode blink without base energy cost
Because as I see it marines have a better chance, when keeping a distance from each other and shooting skulks at range then grouping up and becoming a clusterf*** when skulks attack and everyone is blocking each other and to busy swinging the mouse around and (sometimes) jumping around. I find Skulks/Gorges/Lerks completely weak at range and 9 out of 10 times a Marine will demolish the alien life forms except for fades, BUT, the performance issues and lag does make it alot harder for marines at CQC, therefore possible culprit of alien dominance.
So the problem seems to be : hive spam. The hives killed us, not the fades or the skulks.
Good call azimaith, and I definitely agree. The rifle is pretty awful, and that is a huge problem all game.
I probably could have worded my post better. I wasn't suggesting skulks get nerfed, I offered no solutions. I just stated WHY I think marines lose.
But turning to that topic, I'd be REALLY careful about boosting the rifle too much. Skulks are all the aliens have early game, so they still have to be effective.
----
Frankly, I think any talk of beacons, or how good Fades are, or any other 2nd-tier feature, is missing the point. The game is usually over by midgame, if we are being honest.
If Beacon require Obs, and then a research unlock, it's going to be just like the Phase Gate: too little, too late. So don't look to beacons to save your bacon :).
The problem isn't midgame, its early game. Put simply, marines need a reliable way to take and hold at least 1 tech point, 1 RT, AND (very important) still be able to defend everything. They need to be able to do this vs. an equally skilled alien team, and they need to do it with roughly the same investment in money and time. This is RTS theory 101.
To use RTS lingo, if the game is balanced, you should at least be able to hold your main AND take your natural expansion. There's NO way an equal opponent should be able to keep you in your main.
You confuse symptom and cause.
Hive spamming is a symptom. Hives ARE expensive, aliens can only spam them when they are dominating the game.
The CAUSE is that... well, aliens are dominating the ECON game. They aren't spending any money on tech, just banking it up. So when you DO knock down the hive, they can afford to put one back up. They can outspend you.
And you obviously had no MAP control. Because when marines DO have map control, they drop CCs on every tech spot they take, and aliens can't spam hives anyway.
It ain't the hive's fault. It's everything else. And hive spamming is really a mid-to-late game tactic anyway, the game was lost long before.
Never seen the cc spam really, but I don't think we had any res or time to do it. But yes something is obviously wrong with res system that lead to hive spam.
Hive spamming is a symptom. Hives ARE expensive, aliens can only spam them when they are dominating the game.
The CAUSE is that... well, aliens are dominating the ECON game. They aren't spending any money on tech, just banking it up. So when you DO knock down the hive, they can afford to put one back up. They can outspend you.
And you obviously had no MAP control. Because when marines DO have map control, they drop CCs on every tech spot they take, and aliens can't spam hives anyway.
It ain't the hive's fault. It's everything else. And hive spamming is really a mid-to-late game tactic anyway, the game was lost long before.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think that's quite true. Hive spamming is a problem. Unless the marines completely lock down tech points with numerous sentry guns then the aliens can just go from point to point putting up a new hive. Placing CCs on the tech points does nothing, they cost 20 res and aliens can take them down easily without any defence. If your team are defending 1 tech point, they can place a hive at another. By the time you've locked down 1 point the next hive will be up, so you need to keep chasing the hives before they get built.
I just finished a game where we won as marines but only after taking down 6-7 hives, and the game only lasted 40 mins or so. Our team went from hive to hive taking them down and the aliens had enough res for upgrades and hives (from only 3 RTs). Every time we killed a hive, they had a drifter waiting at another point on the map. While we were killing that hive, a skulk or two was taking out our buildings at the other tech point. It's easy to say, build a CC, build loads of sentries, but we really didn't have that much res to spare - after upgrades, phase gates etc.
We finally got their main hive by building a ninja phase gate near it and having the whole team go through with nade launchers. If the aliens had managed to get a hive up, then once the fades came out we would have be pushed back to our base and forced to turtle or give in.
IMO, placing a hive should be a bigger investment for the aliens and when you take it down it should be quite a while before they can build a new one.
Again, that's not the Hive's fault. What you describe is EXACTLY lack of map control and being out ECONed.
Let's do the math. A hive costs 50 (the most expensive thing in the game). It requires a fragile drifter to travel across the map. It takes exactly 3 minutes to build, damn near forever. An RT generates one TRes every 8 seconds. If aliens have 3 RTs, that's 50 res every 2 minutes, 13 seconds. Also a long time. Conversely, a CC costs 20, less than half that, and you don't even need to build it. Just place it to block the hive. If you have macs, go ahead and build it so you can recycle it when it gets severely damaged, and you even get some cash back.
If you REALLY were winning, you could afford to pay a 20 to 50 ratio, couldn't you?
If you REALLY had map control, you could stop the drifters, and kill the skulks. It takes FOREVER for a skulk to bite down a CC.
If you were REALLY winning, you could certainly kill that hive inside of the 3 minutes it takes to build, even if they got it started. 4 shotgun marines can down a hive in less than 60 seconds.
If you can't keep one or two skulks out of a base, that room is not controlled. If aliens can put up a hive every 2 min, and you can't build a lousy CC, you are losing the econ battle. If aliens are running 3 RTs, you are not winning.
As you described it, you WERE NOT winning. You knocked down a hive, but couldn't close the deal. You were treading water, and there's absolutely no reason the aliens shouldn't be able to recover. If the aliens are dominating econ like that, and can sneak drifters into your tech points, then they SHOULD be able to drop a hive.
Just like marines can spam the crap out of sentries, ARCs, PGs, etc., if they have an econ advantage.
If anything, a rich marine team is a LOT more dangerous then a rich alien team. Sentries, Flamers, GLs, Armories, ARCs, and PGs everywhere. MACs building crap all over the map. They can leverage their cash far more effectively than Aliens in the late game. All aliens can do is drop a silly hive, basically just stalling. No, the core problem is that Marines never get rich.
It's the fact that the marines are absolute crap at map control, so can't protect their bases. It's the fact that the marines are absolute crap at econ, so aliens always have more money. It's the fact that marines typically enter late game with 0 TRes and 1 RT, and aliens typically have 300+ TRes and 3+ RTs.
It's not the hive.
So tell me how do marines expand and defend while at the same time trying to ninja the hives?
Also someone mentioned the marine to fade cost ratio and that you need to kill 6 marines for every fade (so the kd is not so bad). You forgot to take into account the cost of the weapons the marines drop and the areas of the map that might be lost. How many buildings and power nodes are lost? (also the down time they have getting back into the fight)
No at the moment if marines win its because the alien team is incompetent or has a few less players and it does not have allot to do with the marine players skill unless you really have a player who is godly with the shotgun. (how does anyone manage to hit anything reliably with the lag I have no idea)
But ill say again IMOP aliens need to be a bit stronger because otherwise how do they deal with sentry guns right now? But the thread topic is asking why marines lose right now and the answer is that aliens really are just much better over all in many aspects of the game. Im just really tired of people telling marines to learn how to play and use team work (somehow they think its fine aliens need next to no team work unless attacking the marine base, mean while marines need godly team work all game).
Just say fades are over powerd but its beta/will be patched/its to counter sentry guns stop the bulls**t (mostly this is a problem in game chat not the forums). As if all your team dieing 25 times over and over again to a flying invisible healing tank assassin, being camped in your base and being ninja killed at the palyer spawn in the middle of your base and having the fade just walk out while on fire and most of your team trying to kill it was not annoying enouth already.
Well in the game I'm referring to most marines players had decent kill/death ratio (2:1). We were able to kill aliens all right, and we were welding each other, covering, moving together, and so on.
I my opinion :
- The aliens should be able to drop the second hive in most games (i.e. the marines should not be able to snipe drifter and build blocking cc all day).
- If the marines manage to take the second hive it should hurt the aliens (shouldn't be game over though).
- If the marines manage to take down two hives in a row it should be a big blow to the alien team.
Tweak numbers until objectives achieved.
Another big problem is the map. Summit was built waaaaay back in 173, and was designed around balance at that time. It's a lovely map, but I really don't think it's balanced for the current state of the game. So I think there should be a couple of changes in the actual map. Firstly, move the crevice RT to the other side of crevice, where UWE put that bit that goes back in the direction of heliport. This would make it much harder for aliens to get a third RT up until their second hive is complete, also it's an easier area for the marines to defend as it only has two access points (underneath and forwards). Secondly, marine start has been awfully designed. A skulk (unless the marine comm wastes 10 res putting a sentry here) can attack the command chair without being seen or shot from anyone inside the base, and even if you're in the chair, you can't shoot the skulk if you leave, you have to walk around the side. I've been in far too many games that have ended because of this, I think marine start needs a complete redesign to stop this happening. Thirdly, it only makes sense for the Aliens to take Surface Access with their second hive, because it's so close. Either move it further away, or make it more reasonable to take crossroads or heliport.
But I guess we'll have to wait until after the next patch to discuss this again, see how different it is.
No. The marines need to spend much more res than aliens to tech up. Getting upgrades, phase gates and advanced weapons requires a lot of res. I will try building CCs in another game and see how it goes, but I don't think it would have worked. A couple of skulks or a lerk or two would easily take it out while marines are over the other side of the map (that already happened with our other buildings in that game).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you REALLY had map control, you could stop the drifters, and kill the skulks. It takes FOREVER for a skulk to bite down a CC.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
At the moment it is very difficult for the marines to have map control over the aliens without spamming sentries and locking areas down completely. The alien team just has a big movement speed advantage and it's not a big deal for them to run across the map. If we had kept marines at the other tech points, or if we had sent marines there once they were being attacked then the chances of us taking down the hive would have decreased and that was too risky IMO.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you were REALLY winning, you could certainly kill that hive inside of the 3 minutes it takes to build, even if they got it started. 4 shotgun marines can down a hive in less than 60 seconds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, most of the time we did. I think you're underestimating the difficulty of it though. First you need to scout it, then you need to get your troops to come from other parts of the map and group together to push in. You also need to fight off the aliens during all of this. Few alien teams will just let you walk into the hive freely.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you can't keep one or two skulks out of a base, that room is not controlled. If aliens can put up a hive every 2 min, and you can't build a lousy CC, you are losing the econ battle. If aliens are running 3 RTs, you are not winning.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How do you control a room when your team is over the opposite side of the map shooting a hive?
We killed 1-2 of their RTs when we could. Again, it's hard to spread your troops out over the map and attack/defend multiple places at once, while also trying to attack new hives before they get built.
Perhaps, you're right. Maybe we were losing that whole game and somehow managed to win after killing 7 hives. It sure didn't feel like it though.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's the fact that the marines are absolute crap at map control, so can't protect their bases. It's the fact that the marines are absolute crap at econ, so aliens always have more money. It's the fact that marines typically enter late game with 0 TRes and 1 RT, and aliens typically have 300+ TRes and 3+ RTs.
It's not the hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hive spamming is a problem because of those things. The marines are slower and it's harder for them to control the map, they also need to spend more res than the alien team to tech up. Aliens don't have much to spend the res on so after a few upgrades they are free to just save for hives, and continue spamming them relentlessly until the marine team completely locks down the entire map with sentry guns or kills them off.
As the marine team you always feel like you are being reactive to the alien team. It feels like you're on the back foot even when you do manage to do damage to them.
1) A good commander is a lot more important for marines than aliens, and the majority of people cannot comm
2) New players are immediately drawn to marines (because they appear [but aren't] more straightforward)
3) Bad marines feeding aliens makes a MUCH bigger difference than aliens feeding marines
4) On summit aliens can hit two very vicious timings; +1 melee with frenzy, then the fast uninterrupted second (usually surface, but heli is also extremely safe a lot of the time) which leads to fed aliens (usually 3+ since lerk is a niche choice in 183) instantly fading with frenzy before marine armor prevents 2HK
5) Bad commanders ADORE turrets and turrets seem to destroy server performance faster than any other object, and marines suffer from server performance a lot more than aliens.
Some suggestions are to make frenzy more expensive, make fades cost 60 pres, lower the arms lab cost to 15 tres and to completely redesign turrets so that they use some sort of sorcery
edit: also fix the clipping bug
No, you get 30 points. Not sure why we need those, but they do nothing except look big (or not) on your scoreboard.