<!--quoteo(post=1864873:date=Jul 30 2011, 12:56 PM:name=Zuriki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zuriki @ Jul 30 2011, 12:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1864873"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I kind of agree, no game needs jump. I have never actually used jump other than to avoid some poorly placed debris, or to shave a second off my journey (ie. Vent -> MS in Summit, jump over the fence instead of walking around). Most of the time, jump can be completely avoided with good game design. Instead of having jump, have Space do a step-up on objects too large to just walk over.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Er, you did play the game NS1 was built on didn't you?
<!--quoteo(post=1865285:date=Aug 1 2011, 03:16 AM:name=IeptBarakat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ Aug 1 2011, 03:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865285"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Battlefield 3 has jumping. BC2 has jumping. Silly you.
And gears of war isn't an fps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gears of war also has the ability to jump over most anything that isn't the edge of the level, all of those convenient chest high walls can be jumped over as far as I know, it doesn't have a dedicated jump button, but that's because it uses console controls where the game doesn't require you to do any sort of precise movement.
Unless you want to turn NS into a cover shooter you can't really remove the jump button without making the levels very boring.
And gears of war isn't an fps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
LOL nice.. i read his post too scratching my head. almost every single fps i know allows you to jump? (except lame fps hybrids like mass effect [which was a good game, just not fps])
I always thought it was the weirdest thing whenever I played Goldeneye that you could NOT jump. I never even thought of making a game like that... while it's fine that they designed a game to not need jump, that omission never felt right. I don't care for games where you're totally glued to the ground.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->please remove marine jumping. It shouldn't even be inplemented. The biggest FPS don't have jumping included. Ex: Bad company 2, gears of war.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Counter-Strike. Halo.
<!--quoteo(post=1865301:date=Jul 31 2011, 10:32 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jul 31 2011, 10:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865301"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->LOL nice.. i read his post too scratching my head. almost every single fps i know allows you to jump? (except lame fps hybrids like mass effect [which was a good game, just not fps])<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You used brackets grammatically correctly! high five!
<!--quoteo(post=1864896:date=Jul 31 2011, 03:21 AM:name=IeptBarakat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ Jul 31 2011, 03:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1864896"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The field of view feels wrong. Too narrow and zoomed in. Everything feels too scrunched together on my widescreen monitor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah youre onto something there, im feeling that too. In addition it feels like the marine is moving his whole body rather than just adjusting his aim. (i know that is what is actually happening in the game but try put it in real life perspective)
We agree with you Core Dump. I think it has to do with a few things:
- Low frame-rates. - Inconsistent frame rates. Some frames take noticeably longer to render than others which can make it hard to aim. Our new occlusion system will help address this and we'll keep working to fix it. - Some bugginess with movement, where you can vibrate or shake on some surfaces. We'll fix this. - Untuned movement code. It's still early so we need to do more work to get the movement "feel" spot-on. NS1 benefited from years of tuning (from Half-life and before that, Quake), so it's just going to take some more time before we have that fully refined. - Movement speeds aren't tuned yet either, especially between marines and skulks. Sprinting, jumping and running speeds will need some more work. - Some poor animation transitions. We're putting in a new animation system which will help with this considerably.
<!--quoteo(post=1865278:date=Jul 31 2011, 08:46 PM:name=oldassgamers)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (oldassgamers @ Jul 31 2011, 08:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865278"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->please remove marine jumping. It shouldn't even be inplemented. The biggest FPS don't have jumping included. Ex: Bad company 2, gears of war.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please remove weapon switch delays, remove sprinting and just up the run speed of marines and aliens, add time-fused grenades, air control and firing while climbing ladders. It will set you apart from all the ###### AAA-titles that cater to the lowest common denominator(<i>an arena in which NS has no chance to compete</i>) as well as annoy the above poster.
<!--quoteo(post=1865500:date=Aug 1 2011, 02:43 PM:name=Soylent_green)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soylent_green @ Aug 1 2011, 02:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865500"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please remove weapon switch delays, remove sprinting and just up the run speed of marines and aliens, add time-fused grenades, air control and firing while climbing ladders. It will set you apart from all the ###### AAA-titles that cater to the lowest common denominator(<i>an arena in which NS has no chance to compete</i>) as well as annoy the above poster.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No way to the grenades, those are used in AAA titles and just lead to unskilled spam fests..
<!--quoteo(post=1865476:date=Aug 1 2011, 02:00 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Aug 1 2011, 02:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865476"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think it has to do with a few things: ...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://getsatisfaction.com/unknownworlds/topics/fundamental_problem_with_hit_detection_identified" target="_blank">This bug</a> is one of the contributing factors, and it looks like you may be able to fix it with a quick hack by just switching 2 lines of code.
Regarding FOV, any game dev needs to watch this <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blZUao2jTGA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blZUao2jTGA</a> .
Also, I've noticed NS2 uses a lot of view bobbing, for example when sprinting, firing or even reloading. Not only can this be a major cause of motion sickness for some people, but it's also very distracting and makes the game feel clunky. I think it needs to be toned down, and any bobbing that moves the view angle from side to side should definitely be removed entirely (which is something that makes me, as an avid FPS player who never had any problems with motion sickness, feel dizzy and reluctant to play as a marine).
<!--quoteo(post=1864896:date=Jul 30 2011, 02:21 PM:name=IeptBarakat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ Jul 30 2011, 02:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1864896"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The field of view feels wrong. Too narrow and zoomed in. Everything feels too scrunched together on my widescreen monitor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1865779:date=Aug 2 2011, 05:44 PM:name=Agiel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Agiel @ Aug 2 2011, 05:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865779"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Regarding FOV, any game dev needs to watch this <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blZUao2jTGA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blZUao2jTGA</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Right, NS2 uses 90 degrees as the default FOV for marine players, which as that video shows, is the standard for PC games, as opposed to the 60 FOV that is typical for consoles. The FOV is a bit higher for skulks and maybe some of the other aliens, but I don't know what it is offhand.
This article discusses some of the controversy over FOV and widescreen monitors: <a href="http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2007/08/widescreen-and-fov.html" target="_blank">http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2007/08/w...en-and-fov.html</a>
The reason listed in the article, in regards to wider FOVs in multiplayer games, is the reason we've stayed with the default 90. So that players with widescreen monitors don't have an advantage over other players by seeing more of the world. It's a pretty standard FOV for FPS games on PC, so it really shouldn't be a factor in the marine feel.
Aren't widescreen monitors probably far more common than 4:3 monitors nowadays though?
I didn't think they even made 4:3 screens any more. Maybe some people have those weird 5:4 ones that showed up during the transition to 16:9/16:10 but I'd be surprised if widescreen wasn't the standard.
Marines do feel a bit too zoomed in, something between skulk and marine FOVs would be better Ii think, not much different, but slightly.
Wasn't it Black Ops which surprisingly had an option slider to configure the level of FoV?
As explained in the video Agiel posted a link to, the optimal FoV depends on your monitor size, as well as the distance that you are sitting away from it. So maybe a configurable 80-100 FoV wouldn't be a bad thing?
<!--quoteo(post=1865779:date=Aug 2 2011, 07:44 PM:name=Agiel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Agiel @ Aug 2 2011, 07:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865779"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, I've noticed NS2 uses a lot of view bobbing, for example when sprinting, firing or even reloading. Not only can this be a major cause of motion sickness for some people, but it's also very distracting and makes the game feel clunky. I think it needs to be toned down, and any bobbing that moves the view angle from side to side should definitely be removed entirely (which is something that makes me, as an avid FPS player who never had any problems with motion sickness, feel dizzy and reluctant to play as a marine).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm perfectly fine with the view when running, as I feel there should be some kind of minor trade off for using sprint. As for some of the reload view bobbing, those are annoying I agree. The flamethrower in particular is really bad for this.
<!--quoteo(post=1865871:date=Aug 3 2011, 01:09 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Aug 3 2011, 01:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865871"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aren't widescreen monitors probably far more common than 4:3 monitors nowadays though?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I would very much assume that they are yes, especially for gamers, but even if they weren't, they are and will be the goal to aim for, as it's the standard of aspects used for monitors today.
You also have to consider that if a particular FOV is disorienting for a player, he's going to be at a disadvantage, so you're disadvantaging some people by picking any static FOV.
<!--quoteo(post=1865870:date=Aug 3 2011, 09:05 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Aug 3 2011, 09:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865870"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The reason listed in the article, in regards to wider FOVs in multiplayer games, is the reason we've stayed with the default 90. So that players with widescreen monitors don't have an advantage over other players by seeing more of the world. It's a pretty standard FOV for FPS games on PC, so it really shouldn't be a factor in the marine feel.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> While I accept that this is a commonly held sentiment, I strongly disagree with it. 4:3 users are the minority these days: <a href="http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey" target="_blank">http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey</a> <ul><li>Over 75% of the single-monitor users who took part in this survey are using widescreen monitors.</li><li>4:3 screens display a greater area than widescreens</li><li>4:3 screens in my local area are actually <i>more expensive</i> than widescreens.</li></ul>By favouring users of standard monitors, you are actually favouring the minority of users who can afford the more expensive and rare equipment.
Additionally, few other FPS games feature fast-paced point-blank range combat as an intentional core mechanic. Many modern FPS shooters focus on accuracy over medium to long ranges, while NS2 focuses on quick reactions at melee range. It's an entirely different ballpark.
While I wouldn't say the FoV is a primary reason for marines feeling "off", I would definately say that it is a separate issue that does need addressing.
For me, the problem with the marine "feel" is all in the animation delays. Transitioning in and out of sprint takes far too long for me to feel snappy and alert. Likewise, reloading the grenade launcher make me feel like I'm actively dithering about. Long story short, I move my arms too damn slowly!
<!--quoteo(post=1865891:date=Aug 3 2011, 12:31 AM:name=Rokiyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rokiyo @ Aug 3 2011, 12:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865891"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For me, the problem with the marine "feel" is all in the animation delays in the animations. Transitioning in and out of sprint takes far too long for me to feel snappy and alert. Likewise, reloading the grenade launcher make me feel like I'm actively dithering about. Long story short, I move my arms too damn slowly!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The GL reload has been bugging us as well, and has recently been both reworked and sped up. Most likely it will be in the next patch.
The transition out of Sprint is something we'll be looking into as well. Generally we are holding back on a lot of the animation tweaking until the new animation system is in place, so we don't have to keep redoing the animation setup, but once that is workable we'll be going through and fixing up the annoying blending/transition issues and doing a pass on all the view models (marine and alien) to work on improving that "feel" . That will also include adding in some of the animations that we already have done, such as for jumping and regular movement, so its not just playing the same idle when moving and jumping around.
<!--quoteo(post=1865870:date=Aug 2 2011, 06:05 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Aug 2 2011, 06:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865870"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Right, NS2 uses 90 degrees as the default FOV for marine players, which as that video shows, is the standard for PC games, as opposed to the 60 FOV that is typical for consoles. The FOV is a bit higher for skulks and maybe some of the other aliens, but I don't know what it is offhand.
This article discusses some of the controversy over FOV and widescreen monitors: <a href="http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2007/08/widescreen-and-fov.html" target="_blank">http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2007/08/w...en-and-fov.html</a>
The reason listed in the article, in regards to wider FOVs in multiplayer games, is the reason we've stayed with the default 90. So that players with widescreen monitors don't have an advantage over other players by seeing more of the world. It's a pretty standard FOV for FPS games on PC, so it really shouldn't be a factor in the marine feel.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aye, never heard of anyone using the old CRT monitors anymore.. LCD and plasma have taken over, especially in the gaming market. My parents even got rid of theirs last year and it was 11 years old haha. If someone is to cheap to spend $10 more for a LCD(very cheap now for a good LCD compared to a good CRT, some LCD's are even cheaper) then his/her loss imo :P. Times change, so the software should as well. No point in keeping an advantage for old technology...
Glad to hear those animation changes are on their way. I too don't see much of a point in overly tweaking something that is about to be replaced though.
While I'm ranting on about FoV though, I forgot to mention that in most FPS games, we only tend to fight enemies on the same horizontal plane as ourselves. Sacrificing vertical viewing area for more horiztonal viewing area is a good trade. I'm not convinced you could say the same about NS2, where we have to contend with wall-running skulks dropping out of overhead vents and flying lerks.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1865895:date=Aug 3 2011, 12:52 AM:name=MaGicBush)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MaGicBush @ Aug 3 2011, 12:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865895"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aye, never heard of anyone using the old CRT monitors anymore..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I do. Samsung Syncmaster 997MB 19" Wouldn't change it for a LCD. It simply feels smoother.
<!--quoteo(post=1865870:date=Aug 3 2011, 07:05 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Aug 3 2011, 07:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865870"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The reason listed in the article, in regards to wider FOVs in multiplayer games, is the reason we've stayed with the default 90. So that players with widescreen monitors don't have an advantage over other players by seeing more of the world. It's a pretty standard FOV for FPS games on PC, so it really shouldn't be a factor in the marine feel.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"In multiplayer circles, a wider FOV is considered cheating." I don't know where they pulled that quote from. A wider FOV is an advantage, yes, but that doesnt instantly mean you should force all users to use the same FOV, reducing their options. A small slider is a way to get past the issue, TF2 uses this solution. Players can choose up to 110 degrees i beleive. A better solution, is to allow total customisation of the FOV. Quake has always had this option available, and you still dont see the top players running around with 360 degree fovs on.
To force all users, people who play on TVs, large LCDs close, small LCDs far... Widescreen and 4:3, to use the same horiz FOV is not making the game fair. It gives 4:3 screens more vert FOV.
Reducing options to players is the kind of ###### ubisoft and EA pull, indies generally pride themselves on user friendliness. If you think about it it only disadvantages technical people, people who don't understand FOV will not be fiddling in the options anyway, they will use the default values. However anyone who starts the game up and says "oh i wish I could have a normal FOV I am used to from other competitive games" will quickly realise you shat the bed in this regard.
On a related note: allow gun model either complete disabling (preferable) or at least some kind of minimal mode (ala TF2). I have great dread looking at the TRIBES vids, why would I want a huge gun covering 1/4 the area my enemies are shooting me from...
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1865894:date=Aug 2 2011, 07:49 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Aug 2 2011, 07:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865894"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... That will also include adding in some of the animations that we already have done, such as for jumping and regular movement, so its not just playing the same idle when moving and jumping around.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think marines feel already very good now, and it will be even better with that change! Do you also have any plans to make first person "body" models? so that you can see your own legs (I think it would only be necessary for marines and fades) I was messing around with lua to see my own third person model in first person. That was already looking good
<!--quoteo(post=1865913:date=Aug 3 2011, 03:04 AM:name=MaGicBush)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MaGicBush @ Aug 3 2011, 03:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865913"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Crazy, I would never switch back those things weigh a ton and the picture doesn't seem as clear(color tube limits it).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've got an old crt too. I don't particularly loathe the LCDs, but I don't find them decisively better, so I haven't got any big hurry for switching either. Kind of like picking between cake and ice cream and I've already got the ice cream. When I get one, the new screen definitely has to be 120 Hz though. No way I'm going back to anything 60 hz.
---
As for the fov, I'm not too bothered. If someone wants a wider view, so be it. I'm much more worried about the grahpical settings - especially the lighting related ones - affecting the gameplay. Those are something that affect my ability to track and aim in nearly every encouter regardless of whether I've got some extra field of view to spot the target.
I'm pretty sure the skulk FoV is 110, witch is what I try to use in all regular fps games. I wouldn't mind having my regular FoV for marines but I actually don't feel cramped by it in this game.
Comments
Er, you did play the game NS1 was built on didn't you?
<!--quoteo(post=1865285:date=Aug 1 2011, 03:16 AM:name=IeptBarakat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ Aug 1 2011, 03:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865285"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Battlefield 3 has jumping. BC2 has jumping. Silly you.
And gears of war isn't an fps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gears of war also has the ability to jump over most anything that isn't the edge of the level, all of those convenient chest high walls can be jumped over as far as I know, it doesn't have a dedicated jump button, but that's because it uses console controls where the game doesn't require you to do any sort of precise movement.
Unless you want to turn NS into a cover shooter you can't really remove the jump button without making the levels very boring.
And gears of war isn't an fps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
LOL nice.. i read his post too scratching my head. almost every single fps i know allows you to jump? (except lame fps hybrids like mass effect [which was a good game, just not fps])
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->please remove marine jumping. It shouldn't even be inplemented. The biggest FPS don't have jumping included. Ex: Bad company 2, gears of war.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Counter-Strike. Halo.
<!--quoteo(post=1865301:date=Jul 31 2011, 10:32 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jul 31 2011, 10:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865301"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->LOL nice.. i read his post too scratching my head. almost every single fps i know allows you to jump? (except lame fps hybrids like mass effect [which was a good game, just not fps])<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You used brackets grammatically correctly! high five!
yeah youre onto something there, im feeling that too.
In addition it feels like the marine is moving his whole body rather than just adjusting his aim. (i know that is what is actually happening in the game but try put it in real life perspective)
- Low frame-rates.
- Inconsistent frame rates. Some frames take noticeably longer to render than others which can make it hard to aim. Our new occlusion system will help address this and we'll keep working to fix it.
- Some bugginess with movement, where you can vibrate or shake on some surfaces. We'll fix this.
- Untuned movement code. It's still early so we need to do more work to get the movement "feel" spot-on. NS1 benefited from years of tuning (from Half-life and before that, Quake), so it's just going to take some more time before we have that fully refined.
- Movement speeds aren't tuned yet either, especially between marines and skulks. Sprinting, jumping and running speeds will need some more work.
- Some poor animation transitions. We're putting in a new animation system which will help with this considerably.
Please remove weapon switch delays, remove sprinting and just up the run speed of marines and aliens, add time-fused grenades, air control and firing while climbing ladders. It will set you apart from all the ###### AAA-titles that cater to the lowest common denominator(<i>an arena in which NS has no chance to compete</i>) as well as annoy the above poster.
No way to the grenades, those are used in AAA titles and just lead to unskilled spam fests..
<a href="http://getsatisfaction.com/unknownworlds/topics/fundamental_problem_with_hit_detection_identified" target="_blank">This bug</a> is one of the contributing factors, and it looks like you may be able to fix it with a quick hack by just switching 2 lines of code.
Also, I've noticed NS2 uses a lot of view bobbing, for example when sprinting, firing or even reloading. Not only can this be a major cause of motion sickness for some people, but it's also very distracting and makes the game feel clunky. I think it needs to be toned down, and any bobbing that moves the view angle from side to side should definitely be removed entirely (which is something that makes me, as an avid FPS player who never had any problems with motion sickness, feel dizzy and reluctant to play as a marine).
<!--quoteo(post=1865779:date=Aug 2 2011, 05:44 PM:name=Agiel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Agiel @ Aug 2 2011, 05:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865779"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Regarding FOV, any game dev needs to watch this <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blZUao2jTGA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blZUao2jTGA</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right, NS2 uses 90 degrees as the default FOV for marine players, which as that video shows, is the standard for PC games, as opposed to the 60 FOV that is typical for consoles. The FOV is a bit higher for skulks and maybe some of the other aliens, but I don't know what it is offhand.
This article discusses some of the controversy over FOV and widescreen monitors:
<a href="http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2007/08/widescreen-and-fov.html" target="_blank">http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2007/08/w...en-and-fov.html</a>
The reason listed in the article, in regards to wider FOVs in multiplayer games, is the reason we've stayed with the default 90. So that players with widescreen monitors don't have an advantage over other players by seeing more of the world. It's a pretty standard FOV for FPS games on PC, so it really shouldn't be a factor in the marine feel.
--Cory
I didn't think they even made 4:3 screens any more. Maybe some people have those weird 5:4 ones that showed up during the transition to 16:9/16:10 but I'd be surprised if widescreen wasn't the standard.
Marines do feel a bit too zoomed in, something between skulk and marine FOVs would be better Ii think, not much different, but slightly.
As explained in the video Agiel posted a link to, the optimal FoV depends on your monitor size, as well as the distance that you are sitting away from it. So maybe a configurable 80-100 FoV wouldn't be a bad thing?
<!--quoteo(post=1865779:date=Aug 2 2011, 07:44 PM:name=Agiel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Agiel @ Aug 2 2011, 07:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865779"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, I've noticed NS2 uses a lot of view bobbing, for example when sprinting, firing or even reloading. Not only can this be a major cause of motion sickness for some people, but it's also very distracting and makes the game feel clunky. I think it needs to be toned down, and any bobbing that moves the view angle from side to side should definitely be removed entirely (which is something that makes me, as an avid FPS player who never had any problems with motion sickness, feel dizzy and reluctant to play as a marine).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm perfectly fine with the view when running, as I feel there should be some kind of minor trade off for using sprint.
As for some of the reload view bobbing, those are annoying I agree. The flamethrower in particular is really bad for this.
<!--quoteo(post=1865871:date=Aug 3 2011, 01:09 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Aug 3 2011, 01:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1865871"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aren't widescreen monitors probably far more common than 4:3 monitors nowadays though?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would very much assume that they are yes, especially for gamers, but even if they weren't, they are and will be the goal to aim for, as it's the standard of aspects used for monitors today.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While I accept that this is a commonly held sentiment, I strongly disagree with it.
4:3 users are the minority these days: <a href="http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey" target="_blank">http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey</a>
<ul><li>Over 75% of the single-monitor users who took part in this survey are using widescreen monitors.</li><li>4:3 screens display a greater area than widescreens</li><li>4:3 screens in my local area are actually <i>more expensive</i> than widescreens.</li></ul>By favouring users of standard monitors, you are actually favouring the minority of users who can afford the more expensive and rare equipment.
Additionally, few other FPS games feature fast-paced point-blank range combat as an intentional core mechanic. Many modern FPS shooters focus on accuracy over medium to long ranges, while NS2 focuses on quick reactions at melee range. It's an entirely different ballpark.
While I wouldn't say the FoV is a primary reason for marines feeling "off", I would definately say that it is a separate issue that does need addressing.
For me, the problem with the marine "feel" is all in the animation delays. Transitioning in and out of sprint takes far too long for me to feel snappy and alert. Likewise, reloading the grenade launcher make me feel like I'm actively dithering about. Long story short, I move my arms too damn slowly!
The GL reload has been bugging us as well, and has recently been both reworked and sped up. Most likely it will be in the next patch.
The transition out of Sprint is something we'll be looking into as well. Generally we are holding back on a lot of the animation tweaking until the new animation system is in place, so we don't have to keep redoing the animation setup, but once that is workable we'll be going through and fixing up the annoying blending/transition issues and doing a pass on all the view models (marine and alien) to work on improving that "feel" . That will also include adding in some of the animations that we already have done, such as for jumping and regular movement, so its not just playing the same idle when moving and jumping around.
--Cory
This article discusses some of the controversy over FOV and widescreen monitors:
<a href="http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2007/08/widescreen-and-fov.html" target="_blank">http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2007/08/w...en-and-fov.html</a>
The reason listed in the article, in regards to wider FOVs in multiplayer games, is the reason we've stayed with the default 90. So that players with widescreen monitors don't have an advantage over other players by seeing more of the world. It's a pretty standard FOV for FPS games on PC, so it really shouldn't be a factor in the marine feel.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aye, never heard of anyone using the old CRT monitors anymore.. LCD and plasma have taken over, especially in the gaming market. My parents even got rid of theirs last year and it was 11 years old haha. If someone is to cheap to spend $10 more for a LCD(very cheap now for a good LCD compared to a good CRT, some LCD's are even cheaper) then his/her loss imo :P. Times change, so the software should as well. No point in keeping an advantage for old technology...
While I'm ranting on about FoV though, I forgot to mention that in most FPS games, we only tend to fight enemies on the same horizontal plane as ourselves. Sacrificing vertical viewing area for more horiztonal viewing area is a good trade. I'm not convinced you could say the same about NS2, where we have to contend with wall-running skulks dropping out of overhead vents and flying lerks.
I do.
Samsung Syncmaster 997MB 19"
Wouldn't change it for a LCD. It simply feels smoother.
16:9 is the norm today for games and media.
Samsung Syncmaster 997MB 19"
Wouldn't change it for a LCD. It simply feels smoother.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Crazy, I would never switch back those things weigh a ton and the picture doesn't seem as clear(color tube limits it).
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"In multiplayer circles, a wider FOV is considered cheating."
I don't know where they pulled that quote from. A wider FOV is an advantage, yes, but that doesnt instantly mean you should force all users to use the same FOV, reducing their options. A small slider is a way to get past the issue, TF2 uses this solution. Players can choose up to 110 degrees i beleive. A better solution, is to allow total customisation of the FOV. Quake has always had this option available, and you still dont see the top players running around with 360 degree fovs on.
To force all users, people who play on TVs, large LCDs close, small LCDs far... Widescreen and 4:3, to use the same horiz FOV is not making the game fair. It gives 4:3 screens more vert FOV.
Reducing options to players is the kind of ###### ubisoft and EA pull, indies generally pride themselves on user friendliness. If you think about it it only disadvantages technical people, people who don't understand FOV will not be fiddling in the options anyway, they will use the default values. However anyone who starts the game up and says "oh i wish I could have a normal FOV I am used to from other competitive games" will quickly realise you shat the bed in this regard.
On a related note: allow gun model either complete disabling (preferable) or at least some kind of minimal mode (ala TF2). I have great dread looking at the TRIBES vids, why would I want a huge gun covering 1/4 the area my enemies are shooting me from...
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think marines feel already very good now, and it will be even better with that change! Do you also have any plans to make first person "body" models? so that you can see your own legs (I think it would only be necessary for marines and fades) I was messing around with lua to see my own third person model in first person. That was already looking good
I've got an old crt too. I don't particularly loathe the LCDs, but I don't find them decisively better, so I haven't got any big hurry for switching either. Kind of like picking between cake and ice cream and I've already got the ice cream. When I get one, the new screen definitely has to be 120 Hz though. No way I'm going back to anything 60 hz.
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As for the fov, I'm not too bothered. If someone wants a wider view, so be it. I'm much more worried about the grahpical settings - especially the lighting related ones - affecting the gameplay. Those are something that affect my ability to track and aim in nearly every encouter regardless of whether I've got some extra field of view to spot the target.