Marines dont "feel right"
Core Dump
Join Date: 2011-07-11 Member: 109768Members
Join Date: 2011-07-11 Member: 109768Members
Not sure exactly what factors contribute to the "feel" of a first person shooter so I cant offer any suggestions, but the Marines just feel kind of wonky. Im getting around 60 fps with a good ping. I think its partially the way the weapons animate. The shotgun in particular seems hard to hit things with
Comments
I think the Aliens feel pretty good, better than the marines at least.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not sure what you mean, to me they feel almost the same as they did in NS1(movement at least, though obviously not quite as smooth yet). Are you talking about movement, weapons, or??
Marines can barely jump an inch off the ground, and I've seen old ladies move about faster than these new skulks do. But I'm just gonna go ahead and assume most of that is cause we're stuck in beta (ALPHA) with terribad lag\hit-reg, so NS1-speeds aren't really advisable right now. Course it doesn't help if you play NS1 on and off, it really does make NS2 feel so ###### sluggish.
Also shotgun firing is a bit slow as well I find... oh and flamethrower running is super slow. lol, needs an up.
Marines can barely jump an inch off the ground, and I've seen old ladies move about faster than these new skulks do. But I'm just gonna go ahead and assume most of that is cause we're stuck in beta (ALPHA) with terribad lag\hit-reg, so NS1-speeds aren't really advisable right now. Course it doesn't help if you play NS1 on and off, it really does make NS2 feel so ###### sluggish.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Honestly, jumping should not even be in a FPS in my opinion but to each his own.
The weapons is what I'm talking about mostly. Movement too though.
Marines can barely jump an inch off the ground, and I've seen old ladies move about faster than these new skulks do. But I'm just gonna go ahead and assume most of that is cause we're stuck in beta (ALPHA) with terribad lag\hit-reg, so NS1-speeds aren't really advisable right now. Course it doesn't help if you play NS1 on and off, it really does make NS2 feel so ###### sluggish.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can jump over skulks, on boxes and railings - how high do you wanna jump? Above Fades?
Change the FoV ratios and suddently jump will feel higher, and the skulk faster to you...
Im not sure yet if skulk speed still needs tweaking(atm i think its ok), if we get celerity, and how balance would be without stutter/combat fps drops and low tickrates for most ppl etc.
I wouldnt say its that bad atm, just not as fast as back in the day. (if you look at HL to HL2 movement speed got slower too, but maybe thats only me thinking this, after watching the 35min HL finished run :P)
PS: Animations will get some love too, now with the new system...
Change the FoV ratios and suddently jump will feel higher, and the skulk faster to you...
Im not sure yet if skulk speed still needs tweaking(atm i think its ok), if we get celerity, and how balance would be without stutter/combat fps drops and low tickrates for most ppl etc.
I wouldnt say its that bad atm, just not as fast as back in the day. (if you look at HL to HL2 movement speed got slower too, but maybe thats only me thinking this, after watching the 35min HL finished run :P)
PS: Animations will get some love too, now with the new system...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would start getting out of your 2d world, height is not the issue length and no aircontrol is, skulk base speed is fine but with no acceleration it feels like glue on the ground.
@Topic Movement in NS2 is terrible, I recently started TF2, the movement is inferior to TFC but at least it has some movement perks to keep it interesting. NS2 isnt even comparable even though it is melee vs ranged, pathetic.
<!--quoteo(post=1864835:date=Jul 30 2011, 08:27 AM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Jul 30 2011, 08:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1864835"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would start getting out of your 2d world, height is not the issue length and no aircontrol is, skulk base speed is fine but with no acceleration it feels like glue on the ground.
@Topic Movement in NS2 is terrible, I recently started TF2, the movement is inferior to TFC but at least it has some movement perks to keep it interesting. NS2 isnt even comparable even though it is melee vs ranged, pathetic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe you should learn to read in your world?
I just responded to the points(from player) height and speed, i didnt say movement is perfect as it is. (Just that i find it ok. [but i know its not final. At the point they say movement its final - depending how good or bad it is, ill start to randomly spit into dev faces like you - or not])
Dunno why im now in a 2d world, and why i feel a little insulted.
It's comments like this that make me CRINGE. Why do you even play video games? you bring socialism and equality to the table in a virtual world. I think 80% of the hardcore fps players can all agree that jumping should be in every game, because in real life, I AM JUMPING, I am SPRINTING frantically when I am being shot at in paintball. Let's just step away from the whole "realism" aspect of it all.
I play video games as an escape, to get away from all the socialism that occurs in the real world, from our countries turning in to police states, to don't ride your bike without a helmet to don't do this and don't do that.
People should be FREE as they possibly can be in a video game, this is the whole reason why we play it, for the escape of reality, the love for the game.
NS2 has great potential, but the OP is dead on, Marines feel fuct up right now, more so then the Aliens. They feel clunky and have a serious delay on jumping after your sprinting mixed with shooting. If a Fade can simply click right click to fade in and out, then Marines should be able to Sprint and shoot and jump in the animation with a more fluid control. I don't see what the big deal is, it's not like it's rocket science to sprint then jump in real life or in a virtual world. They added a slow down for how many jumps you can do, taming the situation to begin with.
I don't know about you, but IF this was real life and a Fade was "blinking in and out" and trying to cut my head off, I am pretty sure I would be sprinting and jumping on top of stuff while running and gunning. NS2 summit is easily big enough for this to work not to mention they were aiming for 24-32 players, which means there would be even bigger maps.
Stop watering down games to the point that my 2yr old sister could play it, killing off any creative and fun concept the developers have to offer.
Is this one of those ignorant tea party supports in the US that us Brits like to laugh about, because they just repeat what they hear other people saying on tv?
Is this one of those ignorant tea party supports in the US that us Brits like to laugh about, because they just repeat what they hear other people saying on tv?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
LMAO, his response is a bit extreme.
But I guess I do agree somewhat, socialism is taking over the US unfortunately one day we will no longer be able to walk outside without a ticket. But right now, relating your topic to this game has no merit..
I have also played paintball a shi* ton, use to own a Ion when they came out and never found myself jumping unless I wanted to get shot in the face(most aim for the chest, so jumping would cause a hit to the balls or head)... And no I would be hiding if there were fades in real life, if left with no choice then I would not pop my head out running around bunny hopping but use cover and attempt to find some weapon. You seem to have a death wish, which has nothing to do with a video game.
:)
On the subject, the marines feel fine to me, expect the crouch jump which is a bit ridiculous.
Hello! God did not create all creatures equally he made MAN to be #1 so marines should win 100% I don't want to be beaten by the devilish Alien side, that's offensive to Him! Do the devs even study scripture before doing new builds?
If UWE do not put in the following changes in 184 I will stand with a picket outside their offices which will read 'GOD HATES DEVS'
- Remove all Marine armour: naked as god intended (with a lil' leaf - penises and butts are evil)
- No more Stalinist commander, the marines will work on their own to build wooden arcs that will carry them away from the flood. Jesus was a carpenter not a space marine!
- All guns should be available at the start, anything else is unconstitutional.
- Ready Room should be renamed BIBLE CAMP
- Stop those noises aliens make, I can't understand what they say....I think they're speaking ARABIC!!1
Also shotgun firing is a bit slow as well I find... oh and flamethrower running is super slow. lol, needs an up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+ 1
The delays like this really annoy me. I really don't like control being taken away like this. I understand it's to give a disadvantage but it means the player feels like he couldn't have done anything.
I think the shotgun firing speed is okay, it's just the animation that doesn't give you any cues about when you can fire again. Also, when reloading the last shell it plays a longer animation that cannot be skipped which is really annoying (again, another time when control is taken away and you are unable to attack).
If a human being finds his way blocked by a waist high crate he's not going to walk up next to it, standing jump atop it, he's going to step up onto it or mantle it.
This is why jumping almost inevitably looks silly in games, because its just not how people move. A person in a person being attacked by a dog (Skulk) is not going to jump in circles around it, it's just not very fast or effective versus kicking it in the face or running for it.
In the end however, we have to take into account that we don't have all the random factors of reality either, everyone can run as fast as everyone else, people aren't allowed to move their limbs save in predetermined fashions, and almost all movements can be performed endlessly and with ridiculous speed independent of the rest of the body. Ever seen a game that has a melee attack button you can press on the run? Ever notice how bizarre it looks as they're torso twists one way while their legs continue to run the other and their arms swing disjointedly from their torso?
Honestly, I don't mind stuff in the way in FPS, I just want to be able to maneuver over them easily and without trouble and I don't care if that's handled by AI or not. If I run into a crate I'd prefer to load one foot onto it and jump over it, if I run into a head high obstacle, I'd prefer to throw my arms up and pull myself over, this doesn't have anything to do with parkour or the like, it just has to do with normal human movement.
As for sprinting, humans can go from a dead standstill to a sprint very quickly, so I'd prefer to be able to go from sprinting to walking to sprinting very quickly, I'd also like it if when I stopped sprinting I didn't stop dead, but slid slightly as I stopped myself.
Humans are never going to feel right in a video game until human like movements are comprehensively applied to the game, and that means <b>limiting some of the things you can do.</b> Without that, you have to add artificial limits such as slow down on jump, to prevent bunny hop ruining your atmosphere and making matches degenerate into hopping fights. As an example, control over movement in air, this is about as unrealistic as you can get, humans don't airfoils, they're not planes, they can't slow themselves down in midjump by any appreciable amount, yet its constantly in games because you can't control whether your avatar makes a little skip or a full on leap which is determined not simply by speed, but by pressure applied by the legs.
If there isn't going to be a massive overhaul of the movement system I think people are going to have to accept some unrealistic limitations for the sake of game balance.
do like the 2sec ax animations. i would totally run like that.
don't like the shotgun animation . i wouldn't smack myself in the face with a shotgun just to get the lame cod shotgun run effect. same with the rifle. both need to be nearly off the screen.
and pistol.. give the pistol the same animation as the ax. i wouldnt hold the pistol to my ###### cheek while running.
If a human being finds his way blocked by a waist high crate he's not going to walk up next to it, standing jump atop it, he's going to step up onto it or mantle it.
This is why jumping almost inevitably looks silly in games, because its just not how people move. A person in a person being attacked by a dog (Skulk) is not going to jump in circles around it, it's just not very fast or effective versus kicking it in the face or running for it.
In the end however, we have to take into account that we don't have all the random factors of reality either, everyone can run as fast as everyone else, people aren't allowed to move their limbs save in predetermined fashions, and almost all movements can be performed endlessly and with ridiculous speed independent of the rest of the body. Ever seen a game that has a melee attack button you can press on the run? Ever notice how bizarre it looks as they're torso twists one way while their legs continue to run the other and their arms swing disjointedly from their torso?
Honestly, I don't mind stuff in the way in FPS, I just want to be able to maneuver over them easily and without trouble and I don't care if that's handled by AI or not. If I run into a crate I'd prefer to load one foot onto it and jump over it, if I run into a head high obstacle, I'd prefer to throw my arms up and pull myself over, this doesn't have anything to do with parkour or the like, it just has to do with normal human movement.
As for sprinting, humans can go from a dead standstill to a sprint very quickly, so I'd prefer to be able to go from sprinting to walking to sprinting very quickly, I'd also like it if when I stopped sprinting I didn't stop dead, but slid slightly as I stopped myself.
Humans are never going to feel right in a video game until human like movements are comprehensively applied to the game, and that means <b>limiting some of the things you can do.</b> Without that, you have to add artificial limits such as slow down on jump, to prevent bunny hop ruining your atmosphere and making matches degenerate into hopping fights. As an example, control over movement in air, this is about as unrealistic as you can get, humans don't airfoils, they're not planes, they can't slow themselves down in midjump by any appreciable amount, yet its constantly in games because you can't control whether your avatar makes a little skip or a full on leap which is determined not simply by speed, but by pressure applied by the legs.
If there isn't going to be a massive overhaul of the movement system I think people are going to have to accept some unrealistic limitations for the sake of game balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can I get an aaaamen!
Best description of human movement in an FPS I've seen in a long time. Personally I prefer the flashy unrealistic combat with double-jumps, a little air control, blah blah.
To address your point of jumping over silly obstacles, though, I think that's honestly just a leftover accepted practice from atari days and earlier. From Mario to Q-Bert to Pitfall, you had to "jump" to get over obstacles, and we've kind of just run with that until recent games like Prince of Persia or Assassin's Creed. These games started to allow a lot more fluid interesting movement to get around obstacles instead of hopping over.
I get what you're saying about being realistic, but also keep in mind that Mirror's Edge tried the whole first-person parkour thing. I just don't think an FPS game works well doing things like that. A simple jump is visbly more informative than your view sliding all over as you're doing these "natural" movements. Playing an FPS doesn't give you the tactile or motion feedback your brain would be getting, and relying on motion of the camera alone would get confusing. Hence, the jump until we can get into more immersive media.
To further elaborate on the pathetic movement: in NS2 railings have become the marine's most fearful adversary. If you're timing it just right you can _BARELY_ get your fat arse over one, and that's even only half time, other railings are just high enough _NOT_ to be able to jump over, which is a ######. In NS2 railings are an obstacle, in NS1 they were an oppertunity for sweet movement-acrobatics (due to it's elevation and the bunnyhopping-potential cause of that). It also seems the gravity is set wrong in NS2, jumping as a marine will have you in mid-air for just a fraction of a second really, you fall back down far too fast. Same story for the skulk, it really does feel like it's glued to the surface. Lowering the gravity a bit will improve this mid-air freedom, will make marines jump higher (which is dearly needed) and not make skulks feel like they're running through goo.
Though it's probably likely a pro-mod will show up that makes everything like it was in NS1 sorta, as the competitive-scene seems to be the most appreciative of this movement-mechanic.
;p
Jump should also be like in those games, where a crouch jump lets you jump onto high things. another good thing in those games is that a normal jump doesn't slow you down, while a crouch jump does. It currently rarely matter if you lift your legs during the jump or not in ns2.
I dislike too long delays for shooting from sprinting/building, or switching between certain guns.
Imho, you dont want to simulate to many human restrictions. A game is much better when you instead can do exactly that motion you try to do, when you want to do it.
It is the same reason as why I hate invisible walls. Just cause I would not jump off a cliff, doesn't mean I want to be stopped from doing it.
I play a lot aliens, last days i play a bit more marines and i was like "wow they feel so diffrent".
The Graphics are nice, the map summit is very great.
But i have to agree a little bit, just the weapons feels wrong.
The shotguns feels like it shoot after 1 second you press fire.
The rifle is a bit weird too, maybe its the "facepunch".
Battlefield 3 has jumping. BC2 has jumping. Silly you.
And gears of war isn't an fps.