Sprinting, do we still need it?

IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 2,679 Advanced user
Sprinting was added early to the game so marines could head back to their squad or get into combat quickly. This was when phasegates were being cut from the game do to time/budget reasons. Now the game has phasegates, and heading back to your squad or an attack is quite easy now with the weight/speed system.

Removing marine sprint would allow the skulk to have their leap set back to hive 2. As marine sprint was the biggest factor against hive 2 leap.

Skulk/Marine rushes won't be as bad as it is currently. Where you constantly have a marine sprinting to shotgun your hive or have all the skulks leaping to marine start.

Sprinting clashes with the new weapon weight/movement speed system added. You hold sprint with your gun in hand, or you switch to a pistol or the axe. Both systems use the same risk/reward system. And you can still run back to your squad faster with the new weight/speed system by holstering your primary weapon.

The slow on hit against aliens or marines could be tweaked or removed. As you wouldn't have to worry about marines sprinting away from your bite or aliens leaping from every bullet, and skulks would be advised to act stealthily again.

It would discourage rambos and whips would be a valid defense again. And at the end, catalyst packs won't seem useless.

So does ns2 really need sprinting?
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Comments

  • RisingSunRisingSun Rising California Join Date: 2004-04-19 Member: 28015Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Posts: 906 Advanced user
  • TrueVeritasTrueVeritas Join Date: 2006-10-20 Member: 58082Members Posts: 349 Fully active user
  • FehaFeha Join Date: 2006-11-16 Member: 58633Members Posts: 914
    I think we still need sprint, but I do agree the current is kinda bad. Currently it doesnt feel like you sprint if you do it sideways (not sure why), and you cant even fire your gun while sprinting. It should get changed to something closer to how you sprint in hl2 (except for the stamina bar) imo.
  • pSyk0mAnpSyk0mAn Nerdish by Nature Germany Join Date: 2003-08-07 Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer Posts: 1,714 Advanced user
    +1 for no sprinting


  • peregrinusperegrinus Join Date: 2010-07-16 Member: 72445Members Posts: 2,432 Fully active user
    I wouldn't mind if it is removed
  • Raza.Raza. Join Date: 2004-01-24 Member: 25663Members, Constellation Posts: 712
    Yeah, it lost its purpose when PGs were reintroduced.

    I sure wouldn't miss it.
  • GeneralBowserGeneralBowser Join Date: 2010-05-19 Member: 71801Members Posts: 231
    edited July 2011
    no hive 1 leap? pfft I hated the skulk in ns1 and I love it in ns2...

    But feel free to remove that damn sprinting
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    QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Jul 13 2011, 01:16 AM) »
    I'm fine with all the complaints, but don't start accusing us of some shady used car salesmen tactics or something.
  • UzrbitalUzrbital Join Date: 2011-07-04 Member: 107858Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 75 Fully active user
    The sprint serves no purpose at all, and it's barely sprint anyway. It increases your speed only by like 5%.
  • TrCTrC Join Date: 2008-11-30 Member: 65612Members Posts: 1,024 Advanced user
    I agree, sprinting brings very little and damages other areas of the game.
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  • wulf 21wulf 21 Join Date: 2011-05-03 Member: 96875Members Posts: 163
    QUOTE (Uzrbital @ Jul 16 2011, 06:24 PM) »
    The sprint serves no purpose at all, and it's barely sprint anyway. It increases your speed only by like 5%.


    Actually its 20% :)
    CODE
    Marine.kWalkMaxSpeed = 5
    Marine.kRunMaxSpeed = 6.0
  • UzrbitalUzrbital Join Date: 2011-07-04 Member: 107858Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 75 Fully active user
    edited July 2011
    QUOTE (wulf 21 @ Jul 16 2011, 10:47 AM) »
    Actually its 20% :)
    CODE
    Marine.kWalkMaxSpeed = 5
    Marine.kRunMaxSpeed = 6.0

    Oh D: Well, it's still not fast enough, I think. Its sprint, not jogging :)
  • DJPenguinDJPenguin Useless Join Date: 2003-07-29 Member: 18538Members Posts: 945 Fully active user
    Patch 181:

    Gameplay Changes -

    Marine Sprint removed


    10 minutes later at the forum



    NOW THAT SPRINT IS REMOVED CAN WE HAVE BUNNY HOP AGAIN?
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  • lazylazy Join Date: 2005-07-23 Member: 56631Members Posts: 107
    bhop for life :)

    Also, +1 for removing jogging.
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  • HakujinHakujin Join Date: 2003-05-09 Member: 16157Members, Constellation Posts: 188
    I will defend sprinting!

    What sprinting does is give the player a choice. A tradeoff. And in games, this is a good thing. Players can choose to increase their speed at the cost of readiness -- if they run into an enemy they will automatically lose the initiative. If they don't, they can get where they are going 20% faster. This is a valuable decision players need to make with a tangible risk/reward. These are the kinds of features that define good games.

    Furthermore, sprint gives players a slight feeling of control -- if they die in a critical situation, they can activate sprint to get back into the fight. This makes them feel like they are "doing everything possible" to get back to the action. I wouldn't underestimate the importance of this concept.

    Also, sprinting acts as an inverse "iron sights." Instead of bringing up the sights and moving slower, players default to a more cautious movement mode and can sprint between encounters. If you are for iron sights then you must be for sprinting as they are equivalents.

    To those who want to remove sprinting -- WHY? None of the detractors have articulated any valid reason whatsoever.

    One said that sprint "damages other areas of the game." What? No specifics were offered. Another said that phase gates make sprint irrelevant. I disagree strongly with this statement as phase gates come much later in the game and have all kinds of tech and power requirements. While there is some risk in going through a phase gate, their static locations makes the decision to use them much less fluid than deciding whether to sprint trough unsecured territory.

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  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 2,679 Advanced user
    QUOTE (Hakujin @ Jul 16 2011, 02:08 PM) »
    I will defend sprinting!


    That tradeoff is present within the new weapon weight system. Where a player could put away his gun for a speed increase, and the risk/reward of being ready for combat is there.

    Phase gates allow area control, if your commander drops a phasegate you'll easily be able to get back into combat. Without the current problem with the endless supply of soldiers sprinting into alien territory.

    The inverse ironsights comment is still achievable with the weapon weight system. If you draw your pistol or axe you can still get to places faster and you're naturally more cautious as you can't sprint away to gain distance.

    Marine sprinting has been causing plenty of damages throughout the game. In areas such as a marine sprinting past all the alien defenses to destroy the cyst chain. Or continuously rushing hive's or rt's until it's destroyed. It's turning the game into a fast paced lemming shooter. You spawn, get a shotgun, sprint to the hive. Shoot it. Die.(repeat until the hive is dead.)
  • TrCTrC Join Date: 2008-11-30 Member: 65612Members Posts: 1,024 Advanced user
    QUOTE (Hakujin @ Jul 16 2011, 08:08 PM) »
    I will defend sprinting!

    What sprinting does is give the player a choice. A tradeoff. And in games, this is a good thing. Players can choose to increase their speed at the cost of readiness -- if they run into an enemy they will automatically lose the initiative. If they don't, they can get where they are going 20% faster. This is a valuable decision players need to make with a tangible risk/reward. These are the kinds of features that define good games.

    Furthermore, sprint gives players a slight feeling of control -- if they die in a critical situation, they can activate sprint to get back into the fight. This makes them feel like they are "doing everything possible" to get back to the action. I wouldn't underestimate the importance of this concept.

    Also, sprinting acts as an inverse "iron sights." Instead of bringing up the sights and moving slower, players default to a more cautious movement mode and can sprint between encounters. If you are for iron sights then you must be for sprinting as they are equivalents.

    To those who want to remove sprinting -- WHY? None of the detractors have articulated any valid reason whatsoever.

    One said that sprint "damages other areas of the game." What? No specifics were offered. Another said that phase gates make sprint irrelevant. I disagree strongly with this statement as phase gates come much later in the game and have all kinds of tech and power requirements. While there is some risk in going through a phase gate, their static locations makes the decision to use them much less fluid than deciding whether to sprint trough unsecured territory.

    Bravery!

    Sprinting gives marines too much movement, you could argue why not but I strongly believe that the teams should be individualized or we might aswell stick guns into skulks mouth. It is also too fast for vanilla skulk to catch without leap which is extremely stupid, lessening it would make it worthless.

    I have also noticed that new players overuse this a lot ending up many useless deaths which are most likely very frustrating, they are better off pointing their guns to the walls. I bet its the silent ambush style instead of the cod grenade spam warnings.

    Phasegates are the real trade off, that comm has to make either go for tech for mobility or for the upgrades for sturdyness or attack power.

    Finally the most important thing is this is not necessery for marines, they do not need a way to turn their back to the enemy. They need to have a move that allows them to have reasonable chance of dodging incoming attack / ambush.


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  • SwampRatSwampRat Join Date: 2003-02-10 Member: 13369Members Posts: 147
    Would there be uproar if rather than removing sprint in order to prevent the run repeatedly at the hive problem (if it's a problem) the main running/walking speed was reduced so that sprinting is say 5.5 but now running is only 4.5, or even 5.5 and 4, or 5 and 4 etc?
  • wulfwulf Join Date: 2008-08-03 Member: 64749Members Posts: 415 Fully active user
  • wulfwulf Join Date: 2008-08-03 Member: 64749Members Posts: 415 Fully active user
    Turn around and sprint = easy. Maintain target while using knockback and strafe to dodge = also ez but more fun.
  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 2,679 Advanced user
    QUOTE (SwampRat @ Jul 16 2011, 02:39 PM) »
    Would there be uproar if rather than removing sprint in order to prevent the run repeatedly at the hive problem (if it's a problem) the main running/walking speed was reduced so that sprinting is say 5.5 but now running is only 4.5, or even 5.5 and 4, or 5 and 4 etc?


    Shouldn't make standard marine movement any slower than it is. The current speed is perfect. Any slower and they'll feel sluggish.
  • kaffaljidhmakaffaljidhma Join Date: 2011-07-14 Member: 110392Members Posts: 125
    Whatever makes it so we get more "alien drops onto nervous marine's head" and "Han Solo marine chases bleeding alien down hallway."
  • NixxenNixxen Join Date: 2004-02-11 Member: 26401Members Posts: 109
    QUOTE (TrC @ Jul 16 2011, 08:34 PM) »
    Phasegates are the real trade off, that comm has to make either go for tech for mobility or for the upgrades for sturdyness or attack power.

    Finally the most important thing is this is not necessery for marines, they do not need a way to turn their back to the enemy. They need to have a move that allows them to have reasonable chance of dodging incoming attack / ambush.



    I was initially going to vouch for a modified sprint, but the dodge move really sounds a LOT more interesting than sprinting.
    Currently sprinting has been a major factor for me when it comes down to surviving skulk rushes. For instance i take out the first skulk that pops up, but in return he also has nibbled off my feet and I'm stuck with 20 hp and see 3 more skulks incoming. By sprinting through my team and to the back I won't get any more pRes for that battle, but I have a higher chance of surviving the push towards the hive or where ever we are pushing.
    Without the sprint, a half dead marine would be a dead marine in a situation like that. Having a way to dodge an attack or two on your way to the back would remedy this though.
    This ability/move would of course need a decent cooldown so that it can't be spammed while in combat. Even better would be to make you unable to shoot, but in return give you a few seconds(3ish?) of guaranteed survival.


    As for the phasegate comment, that's not really up to the players on the ground to decide since the com has to do the research for the team. They rarely have a say in what the com upgrades, unless the com is nice enough to ask what they want first. Sprint give the grunts a slight choice when it comes to their own mobility, but as I mentioned above - a dodge move sounds way more interesting than sprint, if sprint had to be the trade-off.
  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 2,679 Advanced user
    edited July 2011
    Well they could take inspiration off the new fade double tap movement quick teleports and allow the marines to do some combat rolls or side jumps.
  • weeschweeweeschwee Join Date: 2010-11-19 Member: 75031Members Posts: 80
    keep sprinting. limiting marine mobility will just be frustrating. it's already frustrating how slow backpedaling is. so far the only reason to limit marine movement is to make playing aliens easier. aliens are already easy to play.

    dodge move would get spammed. it's just creating the jump spam problem. put restrictions on it and it will terrible.

    all these ideas are just making a complicated formula. movement should be an easy concept. you should accomplish it without thinking about it. the movement should feel as natural as possible. too many ideas and restrictions will just bog it all down. i don't see any of these complications for the aliens. why should the marines have them? and i'm not sure why weapon switching should replace a solid established mechanic. i hope this gets sorted out, because i think it's straying too far from the purpose.
  • ObraxisObraxis Subnautica Animator & QA Lead, NS2 Person Join Date: 2004-07-24 Member: 30071Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, WC 2013 - Supporter, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts Posts: 2,993 admin
    I like sprinting. Marines move slow otherwise.

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  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 2,679 Advanced user
    Don't forget about the jetpack.

    Jetpacks give the marine great mobility. And allows them to zip around the map at a nice speed. It's like the hive 2 leap skulks can get.
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Members Posts: 3,854
    Sprinting is fine, infestation slows (or is supposed to slow) sprint to almost walk speed, so aliens can control marine movements in their territory.

    It balances out the two sides at the start of the game, and doesn't really unbalance them later as phase gates generally supercede it, taking out sprint won't make marines less mobile in the lategame, but it will make them really slow at the start of the game.

    Besides, why would you WANT an excuse to remove leap from skulks? Leaping is fun, if it's too OP, you should be buffing marines, not finding new and interesting ways to make skulks more boring.
  • ShiloriusShilorius Join Date: 2011-01-14 Member: 77445Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 394
    edited July 2011
    I agree with weeschwee, Hakujin and Chris0132.

    Keep sprinting, there is no reason to take it out of the game.

    Irf you don't need it, then don't use it. But I use it most of the time,
    in situations like:
    - you are at flight and suddently the commander tells you that the base is under attack
    - you die in a fight in vent and need to go back there to save your dropped gun.
    - the phasegate was destroyed (lets say in heli) and you need to go there on foot
    - your squat gets torn apard by a pack of skulks and you decide to save your gun (and your bacon too)
    and so on..

    Sprinting and leaping just make the fights more exiting, the game a little more fast paced and just more fun because you waste less time walking slowly in empty corridors.
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  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 2,679 Advanced user
    If your base is under attack, the marine commander could beacon the soldiers back to base. Great ability from ns1.

    You need the ability to lose your weapon or no one would ever buy new guns. And you could have some nice chap hold onto your shotgun or flamethrower for you.

    The problem with sprinting is it removes a lot of memorable gameplay formulas. With leaping skulks you never see them hiding amongst the map and vents, they just rush into combat. Respawn, and do it again.

    The game is meant to feel slow and steady as it begins, and then proceed to get faster and intense with game progression.
  • Squeal_Like_A_PigSqueal_Like_A_Pig Janitor Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 66Members, Super Administrators, NS1 Playtester, NS2 Developer, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Developer Posts: 2,816 admin
    QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ Jul 16 2011, 06:22 PM) »
    Marine sprinting has been causing plenty of damages throughout the game. In areas such as a marine sprinting past all the alien defenses to destroy the cyst chain. Or continuously rushing hive's or rt's until it's destroyed. It's turning the game into a fast paced lemming shooter. You spawn, get a shotgun, sprint to the hive. Shoot it. Die.(repeat until the hive is dead.)

    I would argue those are really systemic problems that should be fixed a different way then through the removal of sprint. Possibly the cost to benefit ratio of sprinting could be adjusted at some point, either through some kind of stamina, or increased firing inaccuracy during a cooldown period after sprinting long distances, though those kinds of things can be annoying or hard to convey to the player.

    Phasegates do reduce the need for sprinting, but they still are a later game addition. Also, keep in mind that some of the internal maps yet to be released are much larger then Tram and Summit, and sprinting will be much more necessary for getting around on those maps.

    --Cory
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