Why don't they have the Currently Skulk leap as an upgrade at Tier 2 but have a mini leap at tier 1. Then they aren't dominating as much and they still have a counter to shotguns.
<!--quoteo(post=1855589:date=Jun 22 2011, 10:09 PM:name=Shrike3O)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shrike3O @ Jun 22 2011, 10:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855589"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Movement should not scale with experience. Movement should scale intuitively. The fastest way to run from point A to point B should be running flat out in a straight line; jumping up and down and twisting around in the air should not be faster, because it makes no intuitive sense for it to be so.
Runners, sprinters, marathoners? They run in straight lines. Cheetahs, one of the fastest overland animals on the planet? Straight lines. You want to start talking about ducking, dodging, etc, that's an entirely different ballgame, but pogo-swerving is not, in any arena except computer games where bunnyhopping breaks the attempt at realism that a physics simulation is supposed to be, the fastest way to get from A to B.
Someone bunnyhopping seeks to go faster than what was programmed into the game as the maximum forward speed of their avatar. Asides from the issues this might cause for balance (how do you figure out what kinds of speeds people should move at when some of them can go faster than others despite having the same set speed?), and I'm going to repeat myself here... <i>it looks f'king retarded.</i>
I'm here to play a game where humans and aliens battle for survival on a remote outpost of humanity. Pogoskulks and pogomarines kind of ruin the image. The fix for a lifeform not moving fast enough is not to reintroduce a physics engine "feature," it's to make the lifeform move faster.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I take it you think powersliding in Mario Kart is an <strike>exploit</strike> ineffective or unintuitive way to provided skill based movement as well? After all you are zig-zagging your car left and right rather than just moving forward faster.
Also the Cheetah/runner point doesn't make much sense because they have to coordinate the movement of multiple appendages in sequence with each other again and again to achieve maximum velocity. (a.k.a. skill-based movement) Since we are attempting to emulate skill-based movement in a video game on a much smaller scale, we need some way of representing the skill of coordinated movement at a benefit to the player.
Think of it as a mini-game within a game. Tons of games do this. How about the shooters with the timed reload bar where pushing the button again at the right time instantly reloads your gun without additional delay?
There just has to be some way of representing that in the NS world which is fun and also benefits players who practice and improve their timing and coordination. Personally I was a fan of bunny-hopping but I don't think it's necessarily needs to return. At the very least though, we just need a new way to accomplish the same end goal that (hopefully) doesn't require additional scripts to master.
<!--quoteo(post=1855815:date=Jun 23 2011, 01:44 PM:name=Cerebral)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cerebral @ Jun 23 2011, 01:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855815"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I take it you think powersliding in Mario Kart is an exploit as well?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> *sigh* Now we gotta do this all day... <!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Wikipedia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wikipedia)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploit_(online_gaming)" target="_blank">Exploit</a>: The use of a BUG or DESIGN FLAW by a player to their advantage in a manner NOT INTENDED by the game's designers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When bhopping was an unintended byproduct of the game's engine, it was an exploit. The moment developers became aware of it and did nothing about it, it became an intended mechanic. Which is fine, and within their right as the designers/developers. The trouble is, they made no effort to clarify the mechanic, released no documentation, did nothing at all to make it more accessible to their player base.
That is flawed design; pure and simple. It is not an intuitive mechanic, it is not easily discovered, and some would say it is not easily done. When you're designing a game with the intention to sell it, and one aspect of it proves to be difficult, or just frustrating to a large majority of your player-base, you don't go, "Well, that's too bad, learn it!" you either find a way to make it work for most players or you scrap it.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=Jun 23 2011, 01:44 PM:name=)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ( @ Jun 23 2011, 01:44 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also the Cheetah/runner point doesn't make much sense because they have to coordinate the movement of multiple appendages in sequence with each other again and again to achieve maximum velocity. (a.k.a. skill-based movement) Since we are attempting to emulate skill-based movement in a video game on a much smaller scale, we need some way of representing the skill of coordinated movement at a benefit to the player.
Think of it as a mini-game within a game. Tons of games do this. How about the shooters with the timed reload bar where pushing the button again at the right time instantly reloads your gun without additional delay?
There just has to be some way of representing that in the NS world which is fun and also benefits players who practice and improve their timing and coordination. Personally I was a fan of bunny-hopping but I don't think it's necessarily needs to return. At the very least though, we just need a new way to accomplish the same end goal that (hopefully) doesn't require additional scripts to master.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think you have a point, but you're missing part of his. He isn't saying that moving should require no skill, just moving from point A to point B, but that if the effective result of 'skill-based movement' is speed, the mechanics to gain speed should be as intuitive as running, rather than requiring the convoluted understanding of how to bhop.
I think we can all agree that Racing games have skill-based-movement mechanics, most of which are intuitively understood. By accelerating you sacrifice maneuverability for speed, but you must achieve varying levels of both at different points in order to win. This could be adapted to Skulks by changing one variable (Skulk.kAcceleration), and would significantly increase the Skulk skillcap.
<!--quoteo(post=1855828:date=Jun 23 2011, 02:28 PM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Jun 23 2011, 02:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855828"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*sigh* Now we gotta do this all day...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's fair. It really wasn't even the point I was trying to convey. I've updated my post to more clearly state my thoughts.
That's an interesting idea kuban. So the idea would be that skulks can build up speed beyond their normal cap, but only while making no sudden turns? So the skill based movement them comes from the ability to plan and execute paths through the map that don't involve sharp turns.
I could definitely see that being applied to the onos as well, and it's already implemented for the lerk, so it would make for a consistent alien mechanic.
"skulk on wheels" is just a lame idea sorry. I believe it's planned for the Onos, but he's heavy so that makes some sense.
Oh yeah and:
<!--quoteo(post=1855828:date=Jun 23 2011, 12:28 PM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Jun 23 2011, 12:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855828"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When bhopping was an unintended byproduct of the game's engine, it was an exploit. The moment developers became aware of it and did nothing about it, it became an intended mechanic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> +1
<!--quoteo(post=1855815:date=Jun 23 2011, 10:44 AM:name=Cerebral)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cerebral @ Jun 23 2011, 10:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855815"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I take it you think powersliding in Mario Kart is an <strike>exploit</strike> ineffective or unintuitive way to provided skill based movement as well? After all you are zig-zagging your car left and right rather than just moving forward faster.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No idea, I don't have a console. The impression I get from the term "power slide" is going around a corner hard, sliding sideways (in the old direction of travel) to build up momentum in the new direction while scrubbing off the momentum of the old because your tires don't go that way... this is a reasonable simulation of how cars handle, so I don't have an issue with it. People, on the other hand, don't usually powerslide to go around a corner. They'll lean into a turn, but that's about it, and that's simulated by avatar momentum and the availability of the strafe option if you need to correct really hard for some reason.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also the Cheetah/runner point doesn't make much sense because they have to coordinate the movement of multiple appendages in sequence with each other again and again to achieve maximum velocity. (a.k.a. skill-based movement) Since we are attempting to emulate skill-based movement in a video game on a much smaller scale, we need some way of representing the skill of coordinated movement at a benefit to the player.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A lot of stuff in video games is abstracted. Running fast does involve coordination, yes. So does walking or standing. So does changing the drum on a heavy machine gun while running away from a raging space rhinoceros and trying not to choke to death on airborne poison spores. That last one is awfully hard to do, honestly, but in NS1 was abstracted to holding W and tapping R (or bunnyhopping, if you wanted). Not exactly a set of motor skills that we've chosen to turn into a complex set of keyboard and mouse actions.
A lot of games implement sprinting in a fashion such that there is skill involved... you've got limited stamina, or it keeps you from being able to shoot for a bit, or it speeds up over distance so knowing that there's a hole in the floor down that hallway that'll trip you up makes you faster than someone who doesn't. By the same token, jumping is often limited somewhat by stamina or simply slowing you on landing. There's still skill here... that skill benefits players who exercise spacial awareness (am I about to back into a railing, and is it safe to jump backwards over it without looking?), situational awareness (do I WANT to zip around that corner without my gun in hand?), and good timing (if I start sprinting now, am I going to make that jump at the end of the hall, or will I be too tired by the time I get there?).
These are all intuitive skills... you execute them via WASD and your jump and sprint keys, and they behave basically like a human would... moving forwards when you try to move forwards, moving faster when you sprint, jumping when you try to jump. They don't behave differently as you get better at the game, but your ability to use them gets better as you get better at the game, and that is, by definition, skill-based movement. Bunnyhopping is a <i>completely different skillset</i> intended to accomplish the <i>exact same thing</i>... moving faster. The intuitive way to get somewhere faster is to sprint there instead of jogging there. The <i>completely unintuitive</i> way to get somewhere faster is to jump repeatedly and wave your head left and right while running at an angle towards your target.
Telling players how to bunnyhop (theoretically moving it to the realm of the common man, rather than just the serious player) causes entirely it's own problem. What you do by handing a new player a tutorial at the beginning of a game that says "hey, by the way, here's how to move EVEN FASTER" is tell a bunch of folks that the immersive, atmospheric environment they're about to play in has a <i>giant hole in it's reality bubble</i> where, all sorts of consensual hallucinations about being a part of the hive and out to get you some Marine for dinner aside, you can also <i>magically go faster by doing calisthenics down the hallway,</i> as long as you're willing to learn how.
I'm going to hit this point again, and again, and again. <i>Bunnyhopping looks fu*king retarded.</i> Yeah, it takes skill to bunnyhop properly. And yeah, it makes you go faster in a game. But if this is a game that's trying to put a little bit of emphasis on immersion and atmosphere, those things are impaired greatly during those moments when you're running with your teammate down a hallway to reinforce your dying teammates, and your buddy chooses to get there faster by <i>riding a pogo stick.</i>
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Think of it as a mini-game within a game. Tons of games do this. How about the shooters with the timed reload bar where pushing the button again at the right time instantly reloads your gun without additional delay?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The mini-game reloads are amusing from an arcade game point of view, but I find they break immersion. Until you've got enough time in with the game, it usually comes down to ceasing to look at what's going on around you (during a firefight, no less) and watching a little bar on your HUD fill up so you can mash the reload key at the right time. You've just taken a one second break from an intense gunfight for... a timing minigame. It's a break in continuity. It's more arcade, less immersion.
Have you seen the movie "Children of Men?" It's got some of the most mentally intense action scenes I've seen in a movie, and I only realized why after thinking about it later... there are no camera cuts during those fights. You've got one point of view the entire time, and one of those firefights is close to five minutes long, shot from a single steadicam; it never lets up, and you don't have that little bit of mental rest you get from a camera cut to let your brain reset. One of the things that made the original Half-Life groundbreaking and immersive was that all of it's cutscenes happened from your point of view... you're never taken out of the game to watch something happen, it just happens around you. Sometimes, you're even part of it, ducking or dodging or shooting your way through the scene, not just having to watch it happen, and it merges seamlessly with "normal" gameplay.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There just has to be some way of representing that in the NS world which is fun and also benefits players who practice and improve their timing and coordination. Personally I was a fan of bunny-hopping but I don't think it's necessarily needs to return. At the very least though, we just need a new way to accomplish the same end goal that (hopefully) doesn't require additional scripts to master.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the end goal is that skilled players move faster, you'll be happy to know we're already basically there. Skilled players don't miss jumps into vents, they don't sprint around corners temporarily unarmed into the guns of the enemy, and they don't jump out of the way of an incoming attack and find themselves falling off a catwalk into lava because they're skilled enough to be able to avoid those problems.
I have no problem with rewarding skilled players, and so bunnyhopping in Quake Arena is great... it's a silly fun fragfest shooter with a massive number of arcade elements, and there's not really any illusion of realism to break. I do have a problem with implementing a gameplay mechanic intended to reward skilled players when doing so messes with one of the primary goals of the game: player immersion.
<!--quoteo(post=1855913:date=Jun 24 2011, 12:11 AM:name=Shrike3O)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shrike3O @ Jun 24 2011, 12:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855913"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the end goal is that skilled players move faster, you'll be happy to know we're already basically there. Skilled players don't miss jumps into vents, they don't sprint around corners temporarily unarmed into the guns of the enemy, and they don't jump out of the way of an incoming attack and find themselves falling off a catwalk into lava because they're skilled enough to be able to avoid those problems.
I do have a problem with implementing a gameplay mechanic intended to reward skilled players when doing so messes with one of the primary goals of the game: player immersion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Stop acting like your taming species of 20 IQ, the point is not to make "skilled" players move faster it is to make important elements fun, moving is a great part of the game you do it practically all the time. You'll end up walking same path the same way hundreds of times, in bunnyhob however you could use higher or lower elevation to your advatange so the 20th time you jump the path you'll think "perhaps ill use that rail to gain some speed or perhaps I should use that ramp to lower my jump height as I rush in" It gives you freedom to use for good or bad.
If you truely think that you will be in a worse position than someone who plays 8 more hours a day average, then yes you already are regardless whether the game quality long term is improved or not.
And if anyone truely cared about "immersion" first thing they would scream about would be friendly fire, walking true organic matter and the fact the air soacks bullets. Immersion is an excuse for some silly unfounded jealousy or hate.
<!--quoteo(post=1855950:date=Jun 23 2011, 05:19 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Jun 23 2011, 05:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855950"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Stop acting like your taming species of 20 IQ, the point is not to make "skilled" players move faster it is to make important elements fun, moving is a great part of the game you do it practically all the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Watching people pogo down a hallway faster than their teammates can run down it isn't my idea of fun. It does, in fact, impair my fun. YMMV, of course.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You'll end up walking same path the same way hundreds of times, in bunnyhob however you could use higher or lower elevation to your advatange so the 20th time you jump the path you'll think "perhaps ill use that rail to gain some speed or perhaps I should use that ramp to lower my jump height as I rush in" It gives you freedom to use for good or bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've got Attention Deficit Disorder. Despite that, I'm able to make the 12 second run from marine start, down a hallway, around a corner, past the res node, and into the firefight without feeling the need to add fun by crowbarring Tony Hawk Pro Skater: TSA Intergalactic Tour Edition into normal gameplay so I can grind down a railing into a firefight.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you truely think that you will be in a worse position than someone who plays 8 more hours a day average, then yes you already are regardless whether the game quality long term is improved or not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I'm not in a worse position than someone who puts 35+% of their life into a video game, they're doing it wrong.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And if anyone truely cared about "immersion" first thing they would scream about would be friendly fire, walking true organic matter and the fact the air soacks bullets. Immersion is an excuse for some silly unfounded jealousy or hate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Immersion is an excuse to imagine, for a moment, that I'm playing the role of a TSA Marine fighting for his life and species against the alien horde and yet somehow able to respawn after a horrible death in the belly of an Onos. Or that I'm happily digesting a Marine, depending on your perspective. I don't need to believe it to the point that I lose track of reality and think I'm actually there... I just want to immerse to the same level people do when they watch a good movie, and get to participate. The lack of friendly fire doesn't break that immersion for me. High-speed pogo ninjas do.
It's not jealousy... that would imply that I envy their ability, which I do not (bunnyhopping is as easy as running a script). It's not hate... this is a video game, and someone's priorities in life have to be pretty messed up to get hate going on over a video game. The difference between bullets stopping against a protective gas field, Whips walking around, and someone bunnyhopping down a hallway? The last one <i>looks fu*king retarded.</i> That is the very base, the very core of my argument against bunnyhopping. If there's some element of movement that is flawed, find some way of fixing it that doesn't look so bad, so unbelievably wrong that you kick my brain out of the movie-watching level of immersion and back to "oh, right, this is basically Quake with a resource model."
<!--quoteo(post=1855887:date=Jun 23 2011, 04:58 PM:name=Lazer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lazer @ Jun 23 2011, 04:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855887"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"skulk on wheels" is just a lame idea sorry. I believe it's planned for the Onos, but he's heavy so that makes some sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's really not that exaggerated, just makes it more difficult to strafe when you're running at top speed, so you are much more dependent on Leap if you need to change direction immediately.
<!--quoteo(post=1856029:date=Jun 24 2011, 04:51 AM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Jun 24 2011, 04:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856029"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's really not that exaggerated, just makes it more difficult to strafe when you're running at top speed, so you are much more dependent on Leap if you need to change direction immediately.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This will make skulks extra frustrating/clunky. Sounds like the opposite of bhop and detrimental instead of useful. The skulks need their mobility, it's what the class specializes in.
<!--quoteo(post=1856074:date=Jun 24 2011, 11:41 AM:name=Lazer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lazer @ Jun 24 2011, 11:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856074"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This will make skulks extra frustrating/clunky. Sounds like the opposite of bhop and detrimental instead of useful. The skulks need their mobility, it's what the class specializes in.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Anything that impedes you is technically detrimental.
Well, bhopping is frustrating and clunky, so they can't be totally opposite. Yes it limits you. So does friction, and gravity, and other limits they've imposed in the game. That doesn't really invalidate them as balancing mechanics.
Reducing acceleration increases your dependence on Leap in circumstances where you don't have the extra second it takes to get to top speed, or to stop and strafe. In other words, when you're getting shot.
I suppose I should also note that I tweaked Leap a bit (reduced the Speed to 15 from 25, and the Energy cost to 30 from 40) to compensate. It doesn't cover as much horizontal distance, but you can Leap more frequently, which opens up a lot more possibility to maneuver.
<!--quoteo(post=1856029:date=Jun 24 2011, 11:51 AM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Jun 24 2011, 11:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856029"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's really not that exaggerated, just makes it more difficult to strafe when you're running at top speed, so you are much more dependent on Leap if you need to change direction immediately.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
Runners, sprinters, marathoners? They run in straight lines. Cheetahs, one of the fastest overland animals on the planet? Straight lines. You want to start talking about ducking, dodging, etc, that's an entirely different ballgame, but pogo-swerving is not, in any arena except computer games where bunnyhopping breaks the attempt at realism that a physics simulation is supposed to be, the fastest way to get from A to B.
Someone bunnyhopping seeks to go faster than what was programmed into the game as the maximum forward speed of their avatar. Asides from the issues this might cause for balance (how do you figure out what kinds of speeds people should move at when some of them can go faster than others despite having the same set speed?), and I'm going to repeat myself here... <i>it looks f'king retarded.</i>
I'm here to play a game where humans and aliens battle for survival on a remote outpost of humanity. Pogoskulks and pogomarines kind of ruin the image. The fix for a lifeform not moving fast enough is not to reintroduce a physics engine "feature," it's to make the lifeform move faster.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I take it you think powersliding in Mario Kart is an <strike>exploit</strike> ineffective or unintuitive way to provided skill based movement as well? After all you are zig-zagging your car left and right rather than just moving forward faster.
Also the Cheetah/runner point doesn't make much sense because they have to coordinate the movement of multiple appendages in sequence with each other again and again to achieve maximum velocity. (a.k.a. skill-based movement) Since we are attempting to emulate skill-based movement in a video game on a much smaller scale, we need some way of representing the skill of coordinated movement at a benefit to the player.
Think of it as a mini-game within a game. Tons of games do this. How about the shooters with the timed reload bar where pushing the button again at the right time instantly reloads your gun without additional delay?
There just has to be some way of representing that in the NS world which is fun and also benefits players who practice and improve their timing and coordination. Personally I was a fan of bunny-hopping but I don't think it's necessarily needs to return. At the very least though, we just need a new way to accomplish the same end goal that (hopefully) doesn't require additional scripts to master.
*sigh* Now we gotta do this all day...
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Wikipedia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wikipedia)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploit_(online_gaming)" target="_blank">Exploit</a>: The use of a BUG or DESIGN FLAW by a player to their advantage in a manner NOT INTENDED by the game's designers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When bhopping was an unintended byproduct of the game's engine, it was an exploit. The moment developers became aware of it and did nothing about it, it became an intended mechanic. Which is fine, and within their right as the designers/developers. The trouble is, they made no effort to clarify the mechanic, released no documentation, did nothing at all to make it more accessible to their player base.
That is flawed design; pure and simple. It is not an intuitive mechanic, it is not easily discovered, and some would say it is not easily done. When you're designing a game with the intention to sell it, and one aspect of it proves to be difficult, or just frustrating to a large majority of your player-base, you don't go, "Well, that's too bad, learn it!" you either find a way to make it work for most players or you scrap it.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=Jun 23 2011, 01:44 PM:name=)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ( @ Jun 23 2011, 01:44 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also the Cheetah/runner point doesn't make much sense because they have to coordinate the movement of multiple appendages in sequence with each other again and again to achieve maximum velocity. (a.k.a. skill-based movement) Since we are attempting to emulate skill-based movement in a video game on a much smaller scale, we need some way of representing the skill of coordinated movement at a benefit to the player.
Think of it as a mini-game within a game. Tons of games do this. How about the shooters with the timed reload bar where pushing the button again at the right time instantly reloads your gun without additional delay?
There just has to be some way of representing that in the NS world which is fun and also benefits players who practice and improve their timing and coordination. Personally I was a fan of bunny-hopping but I don't think it's necessarily needs to return. At the very least though, we just need a new way to accomplish the same end goal that (hopefully) doesn't require additional scripts to master.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you have a point, but you're missing part of his. He isn't saying that moving should require no skill, just moving from point A to point B, but that if the effective result of 'skill-based movement' is speed, the mechanics to gain speed should be as intuitive as running, rather than requiring the convoluted understanding of how to bhop.
I think we can all agree that Racing games have skill-based-movement mechanics, most of which are intuitively understood. By accelerating you sacrifice maneuverability for speed, but you must achieve varying levels of both at different points in order to win. This could be adapted to Skulks by changing one variable (Skulk.kAcceleration), and would significantly increase the Skulk skillcap.
That's fair. It really wasn't even the point I was trying to convey. I've updated my post to more clearly state my thoughts.
I could definitely see that being applied to the onos as well, and it's already implemented for the lerk, so it would make for a consistent alien mechanic.
Oh yeah and:
<!--quoteo(post=1855828:date=Jun 23 2011, 12:28 PM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Jun 23 2011, 12:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855828"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When bhopping was an unintended byproduct of the game's engine, it was an exploit. The moment developers became aware of it and did nothing about it, it became an intended mechanic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
No idea, I don't have a console. The impression I get from the term "power slide" is going around a corner hard, sliding sideways (in the old direction of travel) to build up momentum in the new direction while scrubbing off the momentum of the old because your tires don't go that way... this is a reasonable simulation of how cars handle, so I don't have an issue with it. People, on the other hand, don't usually powerslide to go around a corner. They'll lean into a turn, but that's about it, and that's simulated by avatar momentum and the availability of the strafe option if you need to correct really hard for some reason.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also the Cheetah/runner point doesn't make much sense because they have to coordinate the movement of multiple appendages in sequence with each other again and again to achieve maximum velocity. (a.k.a. skill-based movement) Since we are attempting to emulate skill-based movement in a video game on a much smaller scale, we need some way of representing the skill of coordinated movement at a benefit to the player.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A lot of stuff in video games is abstracted. Running fast does involve coordination, yes. So does walking or standing. So does changing the drum on a heavy machine gun while running away from a raging space rhinoceros and trying not to choke to death on airborne poison spores. That last one is awfully hard to do, honestly, but in NS1 was abstracted to holding W and tapping R (or bunnyhopping, if you wanted). Not exactly a set of motor skills that we've chosen to turn into a complex set of keyboard and mouse actions.
A lot of games implement sprinting in a fashion such that there is skill involved... you've got limited stamina, or it keeps you from being able to shoot for a bit, or it speeds up over distance so knowing that there's a hole in the floor down that hallway that'll trip you up makes you faster than someone who doesn't. By the same token, jumping is often limited somewhat by stamina or simply slowing you on landing. There's still skill here... that skill benefits players who exercise spacial awareness (am I about to back into a railing, and is it safe to jump backwards over it without looking?), situational awareness (do I WANT to zip around that corner without my gun in hand?), and good timing (if I start sprinting now, am I going to make that jump at the end of the hall, or will I be too tired by the time I get there?).
These are all intuitive skills... you execute them via WASD and your jump and sprint keys, and they behave basically like a human would... moving forwards when you try to move forwards, moving faster when you sprint, jumping when you try to jump. They don't behave differently as you get better at the game, but your ability to use them gets better as you get better at the game, and that is, by definition, skill-based movement. Bunnyhopping is a <i>completely different skillset</i> intended to accomplish the <i>exact same thing</i>... moving faster. The intuitive way to get somewhere faster is to sprint there instead of jogging there. The <i>completely unintuitive</i> way to get somewhere faster is to jump repeatedly and wave your head left and right while running at an angle towards your target.
Telling players how to bunnyhop (theoretically moving it to the realm of the common man, rather than just the serious player) causes entirely it's own problem. What you do by handing a new player a tutorial at the beginning of a game that says "hey, by the way, here's how to move EVEN FASTER" is tell a bunch of folks that the immersive, atmospheric environment they're about to play in has a <i>giant hole in it's reality bubble</i> where, all sorts of consensual hallucinations about being a part of the hive and out to get you some Marine for dinner aside, you can also <i>magically go faster by doing calisthenics down the hallway,</i> as long as you're willing to learn how.
I'm going to hit this point again, and again, and again. <i>Bunnyhopping looks fu*king retarded.</i> Yeah, it takes skill to bunnyhop properly. And yeah, it makes you go faster in a game. But if this is a game that's trying to put a little bit of emphasis on immersion and atmosphere, those things are impaired greatly during those moments when you're running with your teammate down a hallway to reinforce your dying teammates, and your buddy chooses to get there faster by <i>riding a pogo stick.</i>
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Think of it as a mini-game within a game. Tons of games do this. How about the shooters with the timed reload bar where pushing the button again at the right time instantly reloads your gun without additional delay?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The mini-game reloads are amusing from an arcade game point of view, but I find they break immersion. Until you've got enough time in with the game, it usually comes down to ceasing to look at what's going on around you (during a firefight, no less) and watching a little bar on your HUD fill up so you can mash the reload key at the right time. You've just taken a one second break from an intense gunfight for... a timing minigame. It's a break in continuity. It's more arcade, less immersion.
Have you seen the movie "Children of Men?" It's got some of the most mentally intense action scenes I've seen in a movie, and I only realized why after thinking about it later... there are no camera cuts during those fights. You've got one point of view the entire time, and one of those firefights is close to five minutes long, shot from a single steadicam; it never lets up, and you don't have that little bit of mental rest you get from a camera cut to let your brain reset. One of the things that made the original Half-Life groundbreaking and immersive was that all of it's cutscenes happened from your point of view... you're never taken out of the game to watch something happen, it just happens around you. Sometimes, you're even part of it, ducking or dodging or shooting your way through the scene, not just having to watch it happen, and it merges seamlessly with "normal" gameplay.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There just has to be some way of representing that in the NS world which is fun and also benefits players who practice and improve their timing and coordination. Personally I was a fan of bunny-hopping but I don't think it's necessarily needs to return. At the very least though, we just need a new way to accomplish the same end goal that (hopefully) doesn't require additional scripts to master.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the end goal is that skilled players move faster, you'll be happy to know we're already basically there. Skilled players don't miss jumps into vents, they don't sprint around corners temporarily unarmed into the guns of the enemy, and they don't jump out of the way of an incoming attack and find themselves falling off a catwalk into lava because they're skilled enough to be able to avoid those problems.
I have no problem with rewarding skilled players, and so bunnyhopping in Quake Arena is great... it's a silly fun fragfest shooter with a massive number of arcade elements, and there's not really any illusion of realism to break. I do have a problem with implementing a gameplay mechanic intended to reward skilled players when doing so messes with one of the primary goals of the game: player immersion.
While I don't inherently disagree with many of your points, you paint a very boring picture of video games in my opinion. :-/
I do have a problem with implementing a gameplay mechanic intended to reward skilled players when doing so messes with one of the primary goals of the game: player immersion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Stop acting like your taming species of 20 IQ, the point is not to make "skilled" players move faster it is to make important elements fun, moving is a great part of the game you do it practically all the time. You'll end up walking same path the same way hundreds of times, in bunnyhob however you could use higher or lower elevation to your advatange so the 20th time you jump the path you'll think "perhaps ill use that rail to gain some speed or perhaps I should use that ramp to lower my jump height as I rush in" It gives you freedom to use for good or bad.
If you truely think that you will be in a worse position than someone who plays 8 more hours a day average, then yes you already are regardless whether the game quality long term is improved or not.
And if anyone truely cared about "immersion" first thing they would scream about would be friendly fire, walking true organic matter and the fact the air soacks bullets. Immersion is an excuse for some silly unfounded jealousy or hate.
Watching people pogo down a hallway faster than their teammates can run down it isn't my idea of fun. It does, in fact, impair my fun. YMMV, of course.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You'll end up walking same path the same way hundreds of times, in bunnyhob however you could use higher or lower elevation to your advatange so the 20th time you jump the path you'll think "perhaps ill use that rail to gain some speed or perhaps I should use that ramp to lower my jump height as I rush in" It gives you freedom to use for good or bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've got Attention Deficit Disorder. Despite that, I'm able to make the 12 second run from marine start, down a hallway, around a corner, past the res node, and into the firefight without feeling the need to add fun by crowbarring Tony Hawk Pro Skater: TSA Intergalactic Tour Edition into normal gameplay so I can grind down a railing into a firefight.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you truely think that you will be in a worse position than someone who plays 8 more hours a day average, then yes you already are regardless whether the game quality long term is improved or not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I'm not in a worse position than someone who puts 35+% of their life into a video game, they're doing it wrong.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And if anyone truely cared about "immersion" first thing they would scream about would be friendly fire, walking true organic matter and the fact the air soacks bullets. Immersion is an excuse for some silly unfounded jealousy or hate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Immersion is an excuse to imagine, for a moment, that I'm playing the role of a TSA Marine fighting for his life and species against the alien horde and yet somehow able to respawn after a horrible death in the belly of an Onos. Or that I'm happily digesting a Marine, depending on your perspective. I don't need to believe it to the point that I lose track of reality and think I'm actually there... I just want to immerse to the same level people do when they watch a good movie, and get to participate. The lack of friendly fire doesn't break that immersion for me. High-speed pogo ninjas do.
It's not jealousy... that would imply that I envy their ability, which I do not (bunnyhopping is as easy as running a script). It's not hate... this is a video game, and someone's priorities in life have to be pretty messed up to get hate going on over a video game. The difference between bullets stopping against a protective gas field, Whips walking around, and someone bunnyhopping down a hallway? The last one <i>looks fu*king retarded.</i> That is the very base, the very core of my argument against bunnyhopping. If there's some element of movement that is flawed, find some way of fixing it that doesn't look so bad, so unbelievably wrong that you kick my brain out of the movie-watching level of immersion and back to "oh, right, this is basically Quake with a resource model."
It's really not that exaggerated, just makes it more difficult to strafe when you're running at top speed, so you are much more dependent on Leap if you need to change direction immediately.
This will make skulks extra frustrating/clunky. Sounds like the opposite of bhop and detrimental instead of useful. The skulks need their mobility, it's what the class specializes in.
Anything that impedes you is technically detrimental.
Well, bhopping is frustrating and clunky, so they can't be totally opposite. Yes it limits you. So does friction, and gravity, and other limits they've imposed in the game. That doesn't really invalidate them as balancing mechanics.
Reducing acceleration increases your dependence on Leap in circumstances where you don't have the extra second it takes to get to top speed, or to stop and strafe. In other words, when you're getting shot.
I suppose I should also note that I tweaked Leap a bit (reduced the Speed to 15 from 25, and the Energy cost to 30 from 40) to compensate. It doesn't cover as much horizontal distance, but you can Leap more frequently, which opens up a lot more possibility to maneuver.
Sounds similar to Mirrors Edge.