<!--quoteo(post=1854827:date=Jun 20 2011, 06:03 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Jun 20 2011, 06:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854827"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Pulling the realism card isn't all together a valid point either ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wasn't claiming that it was <b>altogether</b> a valid point, but a contributing factor to a valid point. The point being that the old solution is not the best solution.
The basis for every thing in this game is one abstraction (of reality) or another, even the things that don't exist in reality. The movement controls for HL1, as flawed as we know they are, were no doubt designed with realism in mind (as the foundation/basis), but were obviously limited by many things, including the technology available to them.
If you asked the HL1 developers to reprogram the movement code in HL1, do you think they would go, "WTF no, the old method worked!"
No they'd build on their old solution and create a new one, hopefully improving it.
Oh wait, they did.
EDIT: <!--quoteo(post=1854831:date=Jun 20 2011, 06:24 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jun 20 2011, 06:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854831"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hmm that's an idea.
Much better than silly magic air controlling bunnyhopping rubbish that went out of date almost as soon as it was discovered.
Allowing the skulk to do something similar with jumping would be interesting. You wouldn't need air control because you wouldn't be off the floor that long.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> On a slightly related note, this is disabled code (commented) that exists in Skulk.lua (build 179) <!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->function Skulk:HandleJump(input, velocity)
// Normal jump if (self:GetIsOnGround()) then
Alien.HandleJump(self, input, velocity)
// Jumping off wall elseif (self.wallWalking and not self:GetRecentlyWallJumped()) then
// If we're not moving much, leap straight off the wall
// Jump off wall surface we're touching else
// Add jump velocity along view direction and also "up" and away from wall
end
end
end<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
Looks like they are going to fix the inconsistent movement scheme!
<!--quoteo(post=1854832:date=Jun 20 2011, 10:29 PM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Jun 20 2011, 10:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854832"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you asked the HL1 developers to reprogram the movement code in HL1, do you think they would go, "WTF no, the old method worked!"
No they'd build on their old solution and create a new one, hopefully improving it.
Oh wait, they did.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How does the Source Bhop differ from the Quake Bhop?
And....it was John Carmack who made those Quake-Engines.....and it was Quake. Man, Quake. I'm sure even Rage will have a Bhop. We'll see..
EDIT: The NS1 Bhop sucked, I agree. Wanna see one person doing it without binding jump to the mousewheel....
<!--quoteo(post=1854834:date=Jun 20 2011, 06:35 PM:name=countbasie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (countbasie @ Jun 20 2011, 06:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854834"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How does the Source Bhop differ from the Quake Bhop?
And....it was John Carmack who made those Quake-Engines.....and it was Quake. Man, Quake. I'm sure even Rage will have a Bhop. We'll see..
EDIT: The NS1 Bhop sucked, I agree. Wanna see one person doing it without binding jump to the mousewheel....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't say bhop specifically, I said the whole scheme.
Obviously, since Quake engine had bhop, any subsequent derivatives would have bhop, because they are either continuations of the same core engine code or ports of the old engine code. But this is not the Quake engine, and UWEs basis is not restricted to Quake's.
Not that they can't take from it, but they aren't forced to for any reason, so why would they deliberately adopt outdated code instead of aspiring to create their own, new, better solution?
<!--quoteo(post=1854842:date=Jun 20 2011, 10:49 PM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Jun 20 2011, 10:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854842"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I didn't say bhop specifically, I said the whole scheme.
Obviously, since Quake engine had bhop, any subsequent derivatives would have bhop, because they are either continuations of the same core engine code or ports of the old engine code. But this is not the Quake engine, and UWEs basis is not restricted to Quake's.
Not that they can't take from it, but they aren't forced to for any reason, so why would they deliberately adopt outdated code instead of aspiring to create their own, new, better solution?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I totally agree, my only concern was about the HL dev comment. I don't need Bhop at all in NS2. But a better control would be nice...and we gamers are of course comfortable with the given concepts. But I would like to learn a new one. I'll compare it to the Playstation; NS1 was Street fighter (incredible possibilities but damn hard to learn; and not very natural) while NS2 should be like Tekken (not as much possibilities, but feels way more natural and fluid; and you can still differ a good player from a bad one). But...yeah, let's see, if they get a cool new skill-based movement. They actually said once, that they want to.
This nerf is pure madness imo, this "early skulk domination" only occure in games where the marines dont communicate with each other. You cant do a nerf based on ppl who haven't learned to play. And with out leap the marine turrets will be totally overpowerd and almost impossible to pass without dying. The developers should realy reconsider this nerf,beacause the gameplay will be based on npc turrets instead of players.
As a skulk, I get most of my kills by leaping to my target, not hitting them, and then biting his ankles. The leap isn't the reason skulks are dominating. For most, they just help out with movement. All this is going to do is make skulks easier to shoot.
im p sure that once air control for skulks is implemented as well as higher gains in fps are realized we will see hive 1 leap taken away due to it being overpowered
<!--quoteo(post=1855125:date=Jun 21 2011, 07:56 PM:name=meb2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (meb2 @ Jun 21 2011, 07:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855125"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->im p sure that once air control for skulks is implemented as well as higher gains in fps are realized we will see hive 1 leap taken away due to it being overpowered<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
air control is part of, the whole skulk movement feels restricted. they need to bring back the same <u>outdated </u> ideas which happened to work for many years, and lets not forget its been part of many popular games still. Alien race must have some amazing movement, we can dance around this idea forever, and we still will be returning to the idea - alien movement should be as it was in ns1. give the aliens the freedom to be as agile as they need to be, they require this.
<!--quoteo(post=1855238:date=Jun 22 2011, 12:23 PM:name=luns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (luns @ Jun 22 2011, 12:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855238"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->air control is part of, the whole skulk movement feels restricted. they need to bring back the same <u>outdated </u> ideas which happened to work for many years, and lets not forget its been part of many popular games still. Alien race must have some amazing movement, we can dance around this idea forever, and we still will be returning to the idea - alien movement should be as it was in ns1. give the aliens the freedom to be as agile as they need to be, they require this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This
They will waste loads of time trying to replicate the feel of NS1 through some other method, and it will still never be as good.
Should just take the easy route and put the old bhop back in (this may also take loads of time to replicate in a different engine but at least you have a good model to base it off).
I agree that they are going to be tiptoeing around the idea for long unless they bring the old system back. Leap is problematic because it gives too much mobility to aliens and removes tactical thinking, but without a movement skill, the aliens are mince meat against shotguns. And shotguns are boring if you can afford them constantly, and might have to nerfed to be balanced after that. Indeed, these kind of ideas just lead to other problems.
It is not just bhop, you need to port the movement code aswell.
Basically porting PM_Move and PM_AirMove (and their helper functions) to LUA should do it: <a href="http://amxxgroup.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/hlsdk-2.3-p3/multiplayer/pm_shared/pm_shared.c" target="_blank">http://amxxgroup.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/...red/pm_shared.c</a>
I'll probably do it at some time but not right now.
I seriously don't understand this desire to have bunnyhopping (an engine exploit/botched physics model/"skill based movement") put into a game. If what you want is for Skulks to go down hallways faster, you should up the speed they can run at, not make it so that going fast requires them to bounce up and down while waving their head left and right in midair.
It's a skill, sure. It also <i>looks ###### retarded.</i> It's destructive of immersion every time I see someone bounce/twist/zigzagging his way down a hallway in an attempt to go faster when what he would be doing, if this was a more realistic environment, is running flat-out in a straight line towards his objective. I'm not saying bunnyhopping is a lamer exploit... just that structuring a game so that completely bizarre, non-intuitive behavior provides a benefit to those willing to pass up on immersion in favor of learning a pattern of movement that vaguely resembles tardive dyskinesia (and meanwhile leaves the non-serious gamers out in the cold) is a stupid idea.
You want skulks to go faster? Fine. Don't adjust the engine to allow bunnyhopping. <i>Just make skulks go faster.</i>
<!--quoteo(post=1855316:date=Jun 22 2011, 11:07 AM:name=Shrike3O)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shrike3O @ Jun 22 2011, 11:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855316"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You want skulks to go faster? Fine. Don't adjust the engine to allow bunnyhopping. <i>Just make skulks go faster.</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See? it doesn't have to be complicated. and we don't have to introduce old bugs.
The problem with simple speed boost is that it doesn't scale in skill in any way. Aliens need something that develops along skill levels the same way as marine aim does. With speed boost newbie marines are going to get rolled by newbie skulks or high level marines are having easy time with skulks of similar skill.
The lack of skill scalability was already somewhat visible with leap at this very unrefined point of development and it would've got worse with higher performance and player experience. Turning leap into a simple speed boost would probably make the issues double the terrible.
<!--quoteo(post=1855330:date=Jun 22 2011, 12:58 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jun 22 2011, 12:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855330"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem with simple speed boost is that it doesn't scale in skill in any way. Aliens need something that develops along skill levels the same way as marine aim does. With speed boost newbie marines are going to get rolled by newbie skulks or high level marines are having easy time with skulks of similar skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't see Marine aim more of a skill vs skulk sneakiness. most new players have played other FPS so there's no big learning-curve there. a new skulk player will most likely simply run forward and get gunned down, so the speed won't matter that much. the more experienced players will be able to use it for greater effect. Just as the more experienced marine will be able to better predict the skulk movement and compensate, as well as works with his team.
Bunnyhopping or some similar "keycombo-spam skill" would however introduce a big level-gap where the hardcore players will dominate and the casual ones will be free kills.
I'm more open to suggestions that simply involves in-game skills (abilities) that you have to learn when and how to use.
If you guys think this current leap has a skill ceiling you're mistaken. Im constantly inovating new ways to use it to full advantage. Marines will get better and better at aiming, and skulks get better and better at dodging. If skulks do NEED anything, its a very small speed boost. Thats it. Enough with the retarded bunnyhop suggestion.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
bunnyhopping is an exploit.
but on the topic: leap is a nice to have at hive 1. i hope it stays (and balance the game around that fact). but im also curious how games would play out without hive 1 leap (and adjusted speed, health for skulks).
the only thing i dont like in general: if aliens lose a hive, they lose some serious amount of strength. and marines? they have only 1 base, everything is built close together in 1 base. i would like to see more focus on RTs again! i know, they are already important and once numbers are tweaked they will paly a major role, but only if numbers would be tweaked around the fact that RTs matter, and additional "bases" (hives, ccs) only give a bonus.
it should be necessary to spread out to gather resources, to gain technology faster than your enemy. not to be locked down to 1 hive and simply lose. same applies to marines, though they dont require anymore a 2nd cc (marines had the hive lock-down syndrome feeling for a short while, we didnt like it? :D )
i would prefer a simple button called "research fade / onos / lerk" and those life-forms are avaible once researched. if you have 2 hives, you can do something else (spawn infestation, drifters) during that upgrade time and your life-forms get more abilities. NS1 did this, because it was needed (unlocking all life-forms at hive 1).
but back to topic: lerk leap at 2 hives isnt that bad if we would have upgrades like cloak, celerity, and so on. its just that the game isnt complete yet, and we think without it it would suck. maybe uwe should rework the sneak ability somehow (cloak or see marines through walls during "sneaking/walking"...)
<!--quoteo(post=1855386:date=Jun 22 2011, 07:30 PM:name=Schimmel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Schimmel @ Jun 22 2011, 07:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855386"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->bunnyhopping is an exploit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It is not, stop parroting the moot argument. It was left intentionally by the devs as a feature.
<!--quoteo(post=1855431:date=Jun 22 2011, 12:30 PM:name=Jiriki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jiriki @ Jun 22 2011, 12:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855431"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is not, stop parroting the moot argument. It was left intentionally by the devs as a feature.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why was it left by the devs? So that people would bind their "jump" key to scrollwheel? rightttttttttt. Its an exploit. The vast majority of the community views it as one except the "l33t" who continue to want a huge advantage over the other players (Ones who would rather not resort to scripts or stupid binds.)
We can dance around this all day. Whether or not the devs kept it in NS1 is moot, it doesnt belong in NS2. Its NOT the answer to the skulk needing a movement buff.
The problem I've always seen with bhop is this: it's almost never acknowledged in game and most everyone who does it has a script for it. It's one thing to incorporate bhop or something like it into the game and tell people about it. Tribes 2 simplified the first game's bhop into skiing and spent some decent time on it in the tutorial. Hence, people knew you were supposed to do it and no one had to change around config files or get a script and what not to do it effectively. In addition, the skill ceiling for skiing was still very much huge and there was plenty of room to practice it.
However, it's something else entirely to just have it in there. I'm sure we all know what suspension of disbelief is? Just in case, that means we will accept impossible things as long as they are kept consistent. Not acknowledging it means that anyone who thinks about it will break their suspension of disbelief sense it breaks in-universe physics and real life physics. Secondly, though perhaps my experience has simply been biased, I can count the number of people I know who tried to use bhop without a script just on my fingers. Feature that is never explained and is unintuitive? Bad. Feature that most people have a dedicated, outside-the-game script to use? Terrible.
The problem for NS2 is that unlike for Tribes 2, there is no easy solution to fix bhop with. All I can propose is that if we do end up including bhop, it is made clear to new players to use it and that we simplify it actually doing it to just holding the space bar or something. Else people who don't want to modify their game will always be at a disadvantage against those who use scripts.
<!--quoteo(post=1855438:date=Jun 22 2011, 06:51 PM:name=Wiltdog)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wiltdog @ Jun 22 2011, 06:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855438"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why was it left by the devs? So that people would bind their "jump" key to scrollwheel? rightttttttttt.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was left in because it added to the fun of the gameplay ???
<!--quoteo(post=1855438:date=Jun 22 2011, 08:51 PM:name=Wiltdog)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wiltdog @ Jun 22 2011, 08:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855438"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its an exploit. The vast majority of the community views it as one except the "l33t" who continue to want a huge advantage over the other players (Ones who would rather not resort to scripts or stupid binds.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1855444:date=Jun 22 2011, 09:01 PM:name=ThatOtherOtherGuy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ThatOtherOtherGuy @ Jun 22 2011, 09:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855444"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem for NS2 is that unlike for Tribes 2, there is no easy solution to fix bhop with. All I can propose is that if we do end up including bhop, it is made clear to new players to use it and that we simplify it actually doing it to just holding the space bar or something. Else people who don't want to modify their game will always be at a disadvantage against those who use scripts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Indeed this is more than desirable, unlikely common misbelief most bunnyhoppers do not seek overly advantageous ability rather a movement that scales with experience, time used and other contributing factors much like common aim, lets face it is easier to bite twice than aim 14 lmg bullets in. This is why it needs to be movement that scales well.
Reducing time needed to make successful speed gaining jump, decreasing need for mouse movement and adding tooltip mentioning multiple jumps increase movement speed would be suffiecient start in NS1. Difference is that now we have a clean start, it can be done and be brought on everyones eyes.
This misinformed hate reminds me of medievil witch hunts just because some girls had epilepsy or other now common diseases, are people really still the same with internet and everything!?
Skulks need to be faster than marines at all points in the game. I like them having leap from the start... but if that goes, then they need to have a higher movement speed. It just doesn't feel right to try running away from a marine and to have them catch you!
Movement should not scale with experience. Movement should scale intuitively. The fastest way to run from point A to point B should be running flat out in a straight line; jumping up and down and twisting around in the air should not be faster, because it makes no intuitive sense for it to be so.
Runners, sprinters, marathoners? They run in straight lines. Cheetahs, one of the fastest overland animals on the planet? Straight lines. You want to start talking about ducking, dodging, etc, that's an entirely different ballgame, but pogo-swerving is not, in any arena except computer games where bunnyhopping breaks the attempt at realism that a physics simulation is supposed to be, the fastest way to get from A to B.
Someone bunnyhopping seeks to go faster than what was programmed into the game as the maximum forward speed of their avatar. Asides from the issues this might cause for balance (how do you figure out what kinds of speeds people should move at when some of them can go faster than others despite having the same set speed?), and I'm going to repeat myself here... <i>it looks f'king retarded.</i>
I'm here to play a game where humans and aliens battle for survival on a remote outpost of humanity. Pogoskulks and pogomarines kind of ruin the image. The fix for a lifeform not moving fast enough is not to reintroduce a physics engine "feature," it's to make the lifeform move faster.
<!--quoteo(post=1855589:date=Jun 23 2011, 03:09 AM:name=Shrike3O)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shrike3O @ Jun 23 2011, 03:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855589"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Movement should not scale with experience. Movement should scale intuitively. The fastest way to run from point A to point B should be running flat out in a straight line; jumping up and down and twisting around in the air should not be faster, because it makes no intuitive sense for it to be so.
Runners, sprinters, marathoners? They run in straight lines. Cheetahs, one of the fastest overland animals on the planet? Straight lines. You want to start talking about ducking, dodging, etc, that's an entirely different ballgame, but pogo-swerving is not, in any arena except computer games where bunnyhopping breaks the attempt at realism that a physics simulation is supposed to be, the fastest way to get from A to B.
Someone bunnyhopping seeks to go faster than what was programmed into the game as the maximum forward speed of their avatar. Asides from the issues this might cause for balance (how do you figure out what kinds of speeds people should move at when some of them can go faster than others despite having the same set speed?), and I'm going to repeat myself here... <i>it looks f'king retarded.</i>
I'm here to play a game where humans and aliens battle for survival on a remote outpost of humanity. Pogoskulks and pogomarines kind of ruin the image. The fix for a lifeform not moving fast enough is not to reintroduce a physics engine "feature," it's to make the lifeform move faster.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, basically, can't find much to disagree with there.
I think puzl had some best suggestion for bhop: - Make bad mouse movement gives some speed advantage, dimnishing returns with better accuracy (easy to learn, hard to master) - Remove forward key prohibition, it is counter-intuitive - Queued jumps or no no need for accurate timing (requiring mousewheel or script basically)
Then we could tell some new guy to do it and see how fast he realizes that. Making in-game tutorial shouldn't be impossibly hard.
Bunnyhopping is silly, an old engine exploit, and will alienate (no pun intended) new players. It may be fun for the .05% of super-hardcore players, but since it happens at the expense of the rest of the population that almost demands the feature be excluded.
I'm surprised they didn't just increase the leap energy cost as a first balancing step rather than move it to hive 2.
<!--quoteo(post=1855589:date=Jun 22 2011, 10:09 PM:name=Shrike3O)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shrike3O @ Jun 22 2011, 10:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855589"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Movement should not scale with experience. Movement should scale intuitively. The fastest way to run from point A to point B should be running flat out in a straight line; jumping up and down and twisting around in the air should not be faster, because it makes no intuitive sense for it to be so.
Runners, sprinters, marathoners? They run in straight lines. Cheetahs, one of the fastest overland animals on the planet? Straight lines. You want to start talking about ducking, dodging, etc, that's an entirely different ballgame, but pogo-swerving is not, in any arena except computer games where bunnyhopping breaks the attempt at realism that a physics simulation is supposed to be, the fastest way to get from A to B.
Someone bunnyhopping seeks to go faster than what was programmed into the game as the maximum forward speed of their avatar. Asides from the issues this might cause for balance (how do you figure out what kinds of speeds people should move at when some of them can go faster than others despite having the same set speed?), and I'm going to repeat myself here... <i>it looks f'king retarded.</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly this.
In one of my own mods, I cut the Skulks acceleration by half (leaving MaxSpeed where it is) and found the movement to be much more dependent on skill.
You move differently according to your needs. You've got to keep moving to keep at Max Speed, so for long-distances you keep to the flat floors, but your lateral movement is compromised and climbing complex geometry slows you down, so you've got to make good use of Leap to survive in combat where you need to change your direction/vector quickly.
Leap can also be used from standing to give you an initial speed boost, so if you've got the Energy to spend you can still start off at full speed, but you've got to move to keep it, like a Lerk.
It's not the same type of skill that's required of bhopping, but I think tweaking these values can raise the skillcap of Skulk movement to a comparable level without introducing an un-intuitive mechanic like bhop.
Comments
I wasn't claiming that it was <b>altogether</b> a valid point, but a contributing factor to a valid point. The point being that the old solution is not the best solution.
The basis for every thing in this game is one abstraction (of reality) or another, even the things that don't exist in reality. The movement controls for HL1, as flawed as we know they are, were no doubt designed with realism in mind (as the foundation/basis), but were obviously limited by many things, including the technology available to them.
If you asked the HL1 developers to reprogram the movement code in HL1, do you think they would go, "WTF no, the old method worked!"
No they'd build on their old solution and create a new one, hopefully improving it.
Oh wait, they did.
EDIT:
<!--quoteo(post=1854831:date=Jun 20 2011, 06:24 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jun 20 2011, 06:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854831"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hmm that's an idea.
Much better than silly magic air controlling bunnyhopping rubbish that went out of date almost as soon as it was discovered.
Allowing the skulk to do something similar with jumping would be interesting. You wouldn't need air control because you wouldn't be off the floor that long.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On a slightly related note, this is disabled code (commented) that exists in Skulk.lua (build 179)
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->function Skulk:HandleJump(input, velocity)
// Normal jump
if (self:GetIsOnGround()) then
Alien.HandleJump(self, input, velocity)
// Jumping off wall
elseif (self.wallWalking and not self:GetRecentlyWallJumped()) then
// If we're not moving much, leap straight off the wall
// Jump off wall surface we're touching
else
// Add jump velocity along view direction and also "up" and away from wall
end
end
end<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
Looks like they are going to fix the inconsistent movement scheme!
No they'd build on their old solution and create a new one, hopefully improving it.
Oh wait, they did.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How does the Source Bhop differ from the Quake Bhop?
And....it was John Carmack who made those Quake-Engines.....and it was Quake. Man, Quake. I'm sure even Rage will have a Bhop. We'll see..
EDIT: The NS1 Bhop sucked, I agree. Wanna see one person doing it without binding jump to the mousewheel....
And....it was John Carmack who made those Quake-Engines.....and it was Quake. Man, Quake. I'm sure even Rage will have a Bhop. We'll see..
EDIT: The NS1 Bhop sucked, I agree. Wanna see one person doing it without binding jump to the mousewheel....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't say bhop specifically, I said the whole scheme.
Obviously, since Quake engine had bhop, any subsequent derivatives would have bhop, because they are either continuations of the same core engine code or ports of the old engine code. But this is not the Quake engine, and UWEs basis is not restricted to Quake's.
Not that they can't take from it, but they aren't forced to for any reason, so why would they deliberately adopt outdated code instead of aspiring to create their own, new, better solution?
Obviously, since Quake engine had bhop, any subsequent derivatives would have bhop, because they are either continuations of the same core engine code or ports of the old engine code. But this is not the Quake engine, and UWEs basis is not restricted to Quake's.
Not that they can't take from it, but they aren't forced to for any reason, so why would they deliberately adopt outdated code instead of aspiring to create their own, new, better solution?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I totally agree, my only concern was about the HL dev comment. I don't need Bhop at all in NS2. But a better control would be nice...and we gamers are of course comfortable with the given concepts. But I would like to learn a new one. I'll compare it to the Playstation; NS1 was Street fighter (incredible possibilities but damn hard to learn; and not very natural) while NS2 should be like Tekken (not as much possibilities, but feels way more natural and fluid; and you can still differ a good player from a bad one).
But...yeah, let's see, if they get a cool new skill-based movement. They actually said once, that they want to.
air control is part of, the whole skulk movement feels restricted. they need to bring back the same <u>outdated </u> ideas which happened to work for many years, and lets not forget its been part of many popular games still. Alien race must have some amazing movement, we can dance around this idea forever, and we still will be returning to the idea - alien movement should be as it was in ns1. give the aliens the freedom to be as agile as they need to be, they require this.
This
They will waste loads of time trying to replicate the feel of NS1 through some other method, and it will still never be as good.
Should just take the easy route and put the old bhop back in (this may also take loads of time to replicate in a different engine but at least you have a good model to base it off).
It is not just bhop, you need to port the movement code aswell.
Basically porting PM_Move and PM_AirMove (and their helper functions) to LUA should do it:
<a href="http://amxxgroup.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/hlsdk-2.3-p3/multiplayer/pm_shared/pm_shared.c" target="_blank">http://amxxgroup.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/...red/pm_shared.c</a>
I'll probably do it at some time but not right now.
It's a skill, sure. It also <i>looks ###### retarded.</i> It's destructive of immersion every time I see someone bounce/twist/zigzagging his way down a hallway in an attempt to go faster when what he would be doing, if this was a more realistic environment, is running flat-out in a straight line towards his objective. I'm not saying bunnyhopping is a lamer exploit... just that structuring a game so that completely bizarre, non-intuitive behavior provides a benefit to those willing to pass up on immersion in favor of learning a pattern of movement that vaguely resembles tardive dyskinesia (and meanwhile leaves the non-serious gamers out in the cold) is a stupid idea.
You want skulks to go faster? Fine. Don't adjust the engine to allow bunnyhopping. <i>Just make skulks go faster.</i>
See? it doesn't have to be complicated.
and we don't have to introduce old bugs.
The lack of skill scalability was already somewhat visible with leap at this very unrefined point of development and it would've got worse with higher performance and player experience. Turning leap into a simple speed boost would probably make the issues double the terrible.
I don't see Marine aim more of a skill vs skulk sneakiness. most new players have played other FPS so there's no big learning-curve there.
a new skulk player will most likely simply run forward and get gunned down, so the speed won't matter that much. the more experienced players will be able to use it for greater effect.
Just as the more experienced marine will be able to better predict the skulk movement and compensate, as well as works with his team.
Bunnyhopping or some similar "keycombo-spam skill" would however introduce a big level-gap where the hardcore players will dominate and the casual ones will be free kills.
I'm more open to suggestions that simply involves in-game skills (abilities) that you have to learn when and how to use.
but on the topic: leap is a nice to have at hive 1. i hope it stays (and balance the game around that fact). but im also curious how games would play out without
hive 1 leap (and adjusted speed, health for skulks).
the only thing i dont like in general: if aliens lose a hive, they lose some serious amount of strength. and marines? they have only 1 base, everything is built close
together in 1 base. i would like to see more focus on RTs again! i know, they are already important and once numbers are tweaked they will paly a major role, but only if
numbers would be tweaked around the fact that RTs matter, and additional "bases" (hives, ccs) only give a bonus.
it should be necessary to spread out to gather resources, to gain technology faster than your enemy. not to be locked down to 1 hive and simply lose. same applies to
marines, though they dont require anymore a 2nd cc (marines had the hive lock-down syndrome feeling for a short while, we didnt like it? :D )
i would prefer a simple button called "research fade / onos / lerk" and those life-forms are avaible once researched. if you have 2 hives, you can do something else (spawn infestation, drifters) during that upgrade time and your life-forms get more abilities. NS1 did this, because it was needed (unlocking all life-forms at hive 1).
but back to topic: lerk leap at 2 hives isnt that bad if we would have upgrades like cloak, celerity, and so on. its just that the game isnt complete yet, and we think
without it it would suck. maybe uwe should rework the sneak ability somehow (cloak or see marines through walls during "sneaking/walking"...)
It is not, stop parroting the moot argument. It was left intentionally by the devs as a feature.
Why was it left by the devs? So that people would bind their "jump" key to scrollwheel? rightttttttttt.
Its an exploit. The vast majority of the community views it as one except the "l33t" who continue to want a huge advantage over the other players (Ones who would rather not resort to scripts or stupid binds.)
We can dance around this all day. Whether or not the devs kept it in NS1 is moot, it doesnt belong in NS2. Its NOT the answer to the skulk needing a movement buff.
However, it's something else entirely to just have it in there. I'm sure we all know what suspension of disbelief is? Just in case, that means we will accept impossible things as long as they are kept consistent. Not acknowledging it means that anyone who thinks about it will break their suspension of disbelief sense it breaks in-universe physics and real life physics. Secondly, though perhaps my experience has simply been biased, I can count the number of people I know who tried to use bhop without a script just on my fingers. Feature that is never explained and is unintuitive? Bad. Feature that most people have a dedicated, outside-the-game script to use? Terrible.
The problem for NS2 is that unlike for Tribes 2, there is no easy solution to fix bhop with. All I can propose is that if we do end up including bhop, it is made clear to new players to use it and that we simplify it actually doing it to just holding the space bar or something. Else people who don't want to modify their game will always be at a disadvantage against those who use scripts.
It was left in because it added to the fun of the gameplay ???
Wrong.
Indeed this is more than desirable, unlikely common misbelief most bunnyhoppers do not seek overly advantageous ability rather a movement that scales with experience, time used and other contributing factors much like common aim, lets face it is easier to bite twice than aim 14 lmg bullets in. This is why it needs to be movement that scales well.
Reducing time needed to make successful speed gaining jump, decreasing need for mouse movement and adding tooltip mentioning multiple jumps increase movement speed would be suffiecient start in NS1. Difference is that now we have a clean start, it can be done and be brought on everyones eyes.
This misinformed hate reminds me of medievil witch hunts just because some girls had epilepsy or other now common diseases, are people really still the same with internet and everything!?
Runners, sprinters, marathoners? They run in straight lines. Cheetahs, one of the fastest overland animals on the planet? Straight lines. You want to start talking about ducking, dodging, etc, that's an entirely different ballgame, but pogo-swerving is not, in any arena except computer games where bunnyhopping breaks the attempt at realism that a physics simulation is supposed to be, the fastest way to get from A to B.
Someone bunnyhopping seeks to go faster than what was programmed into the game as the maximum forward speed of their avatar. Asides from the issues this might cause for balance (how do you figure out what kinds of speeds people should move at when some of them can go faster than others despite having the same set speed?), and I'm going to repeat myself here... <i>it looks f'king retarded.</i>
I'm here to play a game where humans and aliens battle for survival on a remote outpost of humanity. Pogoskulks and pogomarines kind of ruin the image. The fix for a lifeform not moving fast enough is not to reintroduce a physics engine "feature," it's to make the lifeform move faster.
Runners, sprinters, marathoners? They run in straight lines. Cheetahs, one of the fastest overland animals on the planet? Straight lines. You want to start talking about ducking, dodging, etc, that's an entirely different ballgame, but pogo-swerving is not, in any arena except computer games where bunnyhopping breaks the attempt at realism that a physics simulation is supposed to be, the fastest way to get from A to B.
Someone bunnyhopping seeks to go faster than what was programmed into the game as the maximum forward speed of their avatar. Asides from the issues this might cause for balance (how do you figure out what kinds of speeds people should move at when some of them can go faster than others despite having the same set speed?), and I'm going to repeat myself here... <i>it looks f'king retarded.</i>
I'm here to play a game where humans and aliens battle for survival on a remote outpost of humanity. Pogoskulks and pogomarines kind of ruin the image. The fix for a lifeform not moving fast enough is not to reintroduce a physics engine "feature," it's to make the lifeform move faster.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, basically, can't find much to disagree with there.
- Make bad mouse movement gives some speed advantage, dimnishing returns with better accuracy (easy to learn, hard to master)
- Remove forward key prohibition, it is counter-intuitive
- Queued jumps or no no need for accurate timing (requiring mousewheel or script basically)
Then we could tell some new guy to do it and see how fast he realizes that. Making in-game tutorial shouldn't be impossibly hard.
I'm surprised they didn't just increase the leap energy cost as a first balancing step rather than move it to hive 2.
Runners, sprinters, marathoners? They run in straight lines. Cheetahs, one of the fastest overland animals on the planet? Straight lines. You want to start talking about ducking, dodging, etc, that's an entirely different ballgame, but pogo-swerving is not, in any arena except computer games where bunnyhopping breaks the attempt at realism that a physics simulation is supposed to be, the fastest way to get from A to B.
Someone bunnyhopping seeks to go faster than what was programmed into the game as the maximum forward speed of their avatar. Asides from the issues this might cause for balance (how do you figure out what kinds of speeds people should move at when some of them can go faster than others despite having the same set speed?), and I'm going to repeat myself here... <i>it looks f'king retarded.</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly this.
In one of my own mods, I cut the Skulks acceleration by half (leaving MaxSpeed where it is) and found the movement to be much more dependent on skill.
You move differently according to your needs. You've got to keep moving to keep at Max Speed, so for long-distances you keep to the flat floors, but your lateral movement is compromised and climbing complex geometry slows you down, so you've got to make good use of Leap to survive in combat where you need to change your direction/vector quickly.
Leap can also be used from standing to give you an initial speed boost, so if you've got the Energy to spend you can still start off at full speed, but you've got to move to keep it, like a Lerk.
It's not the same type of skill that's required of bhopping, but I think tweaking these values can raise the skillcap of Skulk movement to a comparable level without introducing an un-intuitive mechanic like bhop.