Well, if it doesn't spread on its own (which means either growing new cysts quite rapidly by itself under this model) then it's not going to be any different from how it is now, other than I suppose a little more pretty to look at.
To be dynamic it has to affect gameplay like that, which means it has to grow on its own in some way, and that means either growing your own cysts (which would work much better with smaller cysts) or by having big structures (like hives) dictate the area which can potentially be infested, and having the infestation just grow cystless around them.
Hence my two suggestions.
You need to have that automatic ebb and flow, but you also need commander direction behind it, so I'm trying to marry the two.
did i miss the point on which you decided that infestation doesn't grow on its own?
i mean, doing the cyst connecting and seeing some kind of glowing and pumping vein going through the infestation is still cool.
but i always thought that the infestation is one of the main enemies of the marines in ns2. i was imagining fights room over room when infestation hits in... first the infestation crawls into the rooms slowly covers everything. the marines fight back the infestation, aliens try to use this as and advantage to kill them, because they are distracted and when the infestation finally reaches a techpoint, the whole scene becomes a mess for the marines and the battle itself becomes epic.
flashing lights growing infestation, a flamethrower and grenades are hitting in, dead alien and marine bodies - RED LIGHT and infestation growing over marine buildings, which takes slowly damage over time.
and the other way around, marines are reconquering the room, cleaning it out with flamethrowers, the infestation SCREAMS, bursts and blasts burning aliens running away. walking chambers are moving into the room and the final battle for this room is going to start. massive macs and well equipped marine squads are moving in and every players adrenaline is vaporizing at their skin because of the tension ...
that was my pov, i was kinda astonished about your plans about cysts and so on... i always thought that the infestation is something like an aura around the alien area and more like day and night in real life, something which everyone knows how it works, how to use it, its dangers and weak spots and so on... i like the idea with cysts but, i miss the point where the infestation grows by itself over great surfaces and just by doing that, it creates epic battlescenes :)
Chris, gorges and commanders can drop cysts that spread infestation.
derWalter, that definitely sounds awesome but I think that infestation spreading without any intervention from the aliens would be a little unbalanced. The infestation being such a huge benefit for the aliens without putting any resources into it would just be too strong it seems.
I hope the vines will procedurally generate not only on the ground, but snake onto walls, ceiling and back down to the ground where the Cyst will be. That way, as the infestation gradually grows around the vines, it will encompass the room/corridor from top to sides to bottom.
Of course, there will need to be a simultaneous generation of infestation around the new Cyst for building; the infestation from the vines will mostly be for atmosphere and wall/ceiling building for Gorges. Incidentally, if the vine will need time to snake to the new Cyst, then the longer the distance, the more "building time" for the Cyst is required.
Also, I support the "If a Kharaa/Marine player dies within Cyst infestation range, infestation generation is accelerated at X rate for Y seconds" idea. The ragdolls don't necessarily have to have infestation grow over them, as you could just make them sink into the infestation and maybe make a disintegrating corpse effect (special death animation?)
What about an inversion of the existing system - dynamic infestation spreads from hives (proportional to number of hives?), and marines build a 'nano scrubber' that removes infestation in an area of effect. This conforms more to the way the factions play, with marines expanding and consolidating before moving on, while aliens tend(ed) to do what they wish with their ability to move around the map very quickly.
Love the new Cyst/DI video and prototypes! More of this please! I wish I could be in the room with you guys! I was almost screaming "World of Goo" to myself and then one of you mentioned it =D
So I really think the multiple connection model is very interesting. It makes the design of the DI network part of each khamm's strategy and style. I also think having procedural vines would make things much more interesting (on walls and ceilings too please). Currently when a gorge is placing mini cysts on the walls/ceiling there are the glowing pulse trails that run along between them. These trails could be re-tasked as the procedural vines, they just need the added multi-connect function.
I also think the vines should be readily visible to the kharaa players (perhaps in alien vision) while very subtle to marines once the DI has spread around them. Being able to follow the vines back to a cyst is very important to the kharaa team communication of strategy. It will also be essential for marines trying to cut-off important links. I think a comm Scan should highlight the vines/cysts on the marine map for a short duration (and possibly with a HUD-like overlay for marine players).
Another good fix for the super-dense network of exponential vines that Dushan was exploiting would be to limit a lvl1 cyst to 3-4 connections total. Then lvl2 cysts could have up to 5-6 connections and so on. This could even be used with mini cysts placed by gorges (limited to 2-3 connections each). Of course these are just numbers I'm throwing at the wall to be tweaked with testing.
The idea of DI spreading out over time and the squishy/stretchy variations is also quite interesting. This should have some pretty firm limits on it though. A max distance cyst placement with a very thin line should be a very risky tactic for a Khamm to use. A ninja marine could avoid the thin DI area (and thus not appear on alien hive-sight) and cut-off a critical cyst close to the 'root'. For this to have valuable effect on the DI network, there need to be immediate changes to the DI when disconnected. Perhaps the healing effects of DI would quickly start to fade away as all the edge cysts of the disconnected network start to take significant damage over time (the non-edge cysts should also start taking damage, just at a lesser rate). It would be best to have a visual feedback for all players to distinguish between connected and unconnected DI (much like the lights signal the power node state of a room). The cysts already show this, but some animated 'shriveling' effect on the DI and maybe a color shift would also make it easier to read.
OK, that's enough for this post. Thanks for the awesome look into your design discussions. It'll keep me contemplating DI concepts for days =D
aeroripperJoin Date: 2005-02-25Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited November 2011
I really like the idea of dead aliens giving a temporary boost to infestation, or rather, leaving infestation behind when they die. If a marine dies near infestation, a nearby vine will grab the ragdoll and pull him over and grow over him.
Marines that get knocked down by Onos gore near infestation, and are low in health, will be targets for the infestation vines that grab them and pull them over to be consumed. Of course nearby marines can shoot the vine to save their comrade. It sort of brings back that old "freeing your comrade from the onos stomach" feeling.
I also like the mechanic of vines going through vents to connect to cysts on the other side. There is really a whole lot you could do with the infestation mechanic.
So the cysts are going to stay i assume? instead of complete dynamic infestation? Not that i really mind it, the ideas were awesome, i really like the last one, the combination of the previous ones.
But wouldnt it be possible to combine both dynamic infestation and the cyst system?
Like the DI will slowly spread on its own if left alone, covering a room completely, so walls and ceiling included. After covering X distance the DI creates its own weak lvl 1 cyst (giving it its own invisible energy or cooldown on this, below is why) Then the commander can drop cysts that will start slowly infesting the area around it, all cysts it connects to start growing vines towards this new cyst, connecting it to the network. The DI will then start growing along the vine at an increased speed, covering walls and ceilings as well after a while.
Destroying a cyst will make the DI retract/die off if its over extending its maximum reach. However, the DI will try to save itself if it has the energy/is off cooldown, by planting a weak cyst/mini cyst.
Marines can burn infestation to kill it off faster/instantly where the fire touches, vines dont die unless the cyst it connects to is destroyed, so if the DI is burned off but the cyst/vine is still alive it will just re-spread again.
So to sum it up, this is what would happen: -DI spreads itself at a slow pace, covering not only the ground but walls and such as well. -When DI reacher X distance from its last Cyst AND it has energy/is off cooldown it will create a weak/mini cyst to increase the network. -Once it build the minicyst it will start spreading again. -The alien commander can drop cysts, these cysts will then link up using vines (that grow from the existing cysts towards the new one) to all cysts in range (higher lvl cysts have a larger range) -The DI will then spread along those vines at an increased speed (compared to spreading on its own) -The further a cyst is away the thinner the line of infestation growth initially will be ( the Vine/cyst is spreading its infesting power over a bigger area after all)
A marine dying on DI would be "consumed" boosting/refilling the DI´s energy (which it uses to create its cysts) or give a small boost to the speed it spreads at.
If a marine severes the network by killing a cyst the DI will try to restore itself by dropping one of its mini cysts if it can (energy/cooldown), it not the unconnected network slowly dies and the DI retracts, from outwards to inwards like now.
So instead of having the com spread infestation the infestation does this on its own, the comm would only give it a means to do it faster or to direct it. I think that would also add to the biological feel.
As of right now marines can sprint away from alien lifeform in the middle of a fight (esp to reload). aliens can obviously catch up but it usually takes a while... ie enough time for marine to finish reloading
Removing the 'no shooting for a second after running' will just make it easier to do so.
I can already imagine a new marine 'skill' involving running and shooting non stop
Sounds interesting, wondering what it is. Hoping it isn't basically ubercharge as that can be kind of annoying in the high-damage environment of NS, it works in TF2, partly because that game still has knockback, but even there the game is a bit too focussed on it.
But there are lots of other things it could be, so let's wait and see.
<!--quoteo(post=1886165:date=Nov 22 2011, 09:53 AM:name=konata)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (konata @ Nov 22 2011, 09:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1886165"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wait. NS2 has shields? I haven't seen them yet.
I'd like to wait to <b>see</b> what this is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> i meant marine armor repair
My guess on Nano Shield - some area effect that pushes out DI in the region (only available if the room is powered?) Other option would be an armor buff for marines in a specific area with a short duration.
Prob an activated power which boosts armour for a short period, say when rushing a strong point marines takes less dmg. This would allow the "pushing" forwards and stop marines dieing at critical moments. eh just my theory
Edit didnt read above quite right, pretty much the jist of it in last option given
As far as i heard its just like a buff so you take 50% less dmg, usable on structures and players or something like that. Was mentioned in one of simons sound dev casts.
<!--quoteo(post=1886142:date=Nov 22 2011, 01:31 PM:name=Dragon-Guard)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dragon-Guard @ Nov 22 2011, 01:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1886142"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But wouldnt it be possible to combine both dynamic infestation and the cyst system?
Like the DI will slowly spread on its own if left alone, covering a room completely, so walls and ceiling included.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That is the eventual plan. The infestation will grow to a set amount fairly quickly, after a cyst has been placed, and then it will continue to grow slowly on its own. This will allow it to grow up on walls and maybe ceilings. So, ideally, a hive room would become completely covered in infestation after while.
<!--quoteo(post=1886165:date=Nov 22 2011, 12:53 PM:name=konata)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (konata @ Nov 22 2011, 12:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1886165"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wait. NS2 has shields? I haven't seen them yet.
I'd like to wait to <b>see</b> what this is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1886162:date=Nov 22 2011, 07:30 PM:name=aeroripper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (aeroripper @ Nov 22 2011, 07:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1886162"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What's nano shield?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> very good question. it sounds a lot overpowered...except if onos smash a marine ^^
pax booth next to riot please. it'll save me a lot of time.
edit: couldn't get tickets this year cuz i was too late, not making that mistake again - purchased. See you in the South End in the Bean in April! Promise my map will be done by then :)
edit2: you should have gorge plushies and switchaxe keychain bottle openers and unknownworlds tshirts and a dunk tank with one of the brians sitting on top and obvi some booth babes, preferably from one of our fine strip clubs in the greater boston area.
Comments
To be dynamic it has to affect gameplay like that, which means it has to grow on its own in some way, and that means either growing your own cysts (which would work much better with smaller cysts) or by having big structures (like hives) dictate the area which can potentially be infested, and having the infestation just grow cystless around them.
Hence my two suggestions.
You need to have that automatic ebb and flow, but you also need commander direction behind it, so I'm trying to marry the two.
did i miss the point on which you decided that infestation doesn't grow on its own?
i mean, doing the cyst connecting and seeing some kind of glowing and pumping
vein going through the infestation is still cool.
but i always thought that the infestation is one of the main enemies of the marines
in ns2. i was imagining fights room over room when infestation hits in... first the infestation
crawls into the rooms slowly covers everything. the marines fight back the infestation,
aliens try to use this as and advantage to kill them, because they are distracted and
when the infestation finally reaches a techpoint, the whole scene becomes a mess
for the marines and the battle itself becomes epic.
flashing lights growing infestation, a flamethrower and grenades are hitting in,
dead alien and marine bodies - RED LIGHT and infestation growing over marine buildings,
which takes slowly damage over time.
and the other way around, marines are reconquering the room, cleaning it out with
flamethrowers, the infestation SCREAMS, bursts and blasts burning aliens running away.
walking chambers are moving into the room and the final battle for this room is going to
start. massive macs and well equipped marine squads are moving in and every players
adrenaline is vaporizing at their skin because of the tension ...
that was my pov, i was kinda astonished about your plans about cysts and so on...
i always thought that the infestation is something like an aura around the alien area
and more like day and night in real life, something which everyone knows how it works,
how to use it, its dangers and weak spots and so on... i like the idea with cysts but,
i miss the point where the infestation grows by itself over great surfaces and just by doing
that, it creates epic battlescenes :)
come on uwe, make me buy a new pc!!!! :P
derWalter, that definitely sounds awesome but I think that infestation spreading without any intervention from the aliens would be a little unbalanced. The infestation being such a huge benefit for the aliens without putting any resources into it would just be too strong it seems.
Of course, there will need to be a simultaneous generation of infestation around the new Cyst for building; the infestation from the vines will mostly be for atmosphere and wall/ceiling building for Gorges. Incidentally, if the vine will need time to snake to the new Cyst, then the longer the distance, the more "building time" for the Cyst is required.
Also, I support the "If a Kharaa/Marine player dies within Cyst infestation range, infestation generation is accelerated at X rate for Y seconds" idea. The ragdolls don't necessarily have to have infestation grow over them, as you could just make them sink into the infestation and maybe make a disintegrating corpse effect (special death animation?)
EDIT: The second node connection demo is cool!
So I really think the multiple connection model is very interesting. It makes the design of the DI network part of each khamm's strategy and style. I also think having procedural vines would make things much more interesting (on walls and ceilings too please). Currently when a gorge is placing mini cysts on the walls/ceiling there are the glowing pulse trails that run along between them. These trails could be re-tasked as the procedural vines, they just need the added multi-connect function.
I also think the vines should be readily visible to the kharaa players (perhaps in alien vision) while very subtle to marines once the DI has spread around them. Being able to follow the vines back to a cyst is very important to the kharaa team communication of strategy. It will also be essential for marines trying to cut-off important links. I think a comm Scan should highlight the vines/cysts on the marine map for a short duration (and possibly with a HUD-like overlay for marine players).
Another good fix for the super-dense network of exponential vines that Dushan was exploiting would be to limit a lvl1 cyst to 3-4 connections total. Then lvl2 cysts could have up to 5-6 connections and so on. This could even be used with mini cysts placed by gorges (limited to 2-3 connections each). Of course these are just numbers I'm throwing at the wall to be tweaked with testing.
The idea of DI spreading out over time and the squishy/stretchy variations is also quite interesting. This should have some pretty firm limits on it though. A max distance cyst placement with a very thin line should be a very risky tactic for a Khamm to use. A ninja marine could avoid the thin DI area (and thus not appear on alien hive-sight) and cut-off a critical cyst close to the 'root'. For this to have valuable effect on the DI network, there need to be immediate changes to the DI when disconnected. Perhaps the healing effects of DI would quickly start to fade away as all the edge cysts of the disconnected network start to take significant damage over time (the non-edge cysts should also start taking damage, just at a lesser rate). It would be best to have a visual feedback for all players to distinguish between connected and unconnected DI (much like the lights signal the power node state of a room). The cysts already show this, but some animated 'shriveling' effect on the DI and maybe a color shift would also make it easier to read.
OK, that's enough for this post. Thanks for the awesome look into your design discussions. It'll keep me contemplating DI concepts for days =D
Marines that get knocked down by Onos gore near infestation, and are low in health, will be targets for the infestation vines that grab them and pull them over to be consumed. Of course nearby marines can shoot the vine to save their comrade. It sort of brings back that old "freeing your comrade from the onos stomach" feeling.
I also like the mechanic of vines going through vents to connect to cysts on the other side. There is really a whole lot you could do with the infestation mechanic.
Not that i really mind it, the ideas were awesome, i really like the last one, the combination of the previous ones.
But wouldnt it be possible to combine both dynamic infestation and the cyst system?
Like the DI will slowly spread on its own if left alone, covering a room completely, so walls and ceiling included.
After covering X distance the DI creates its own weak lvl 1 cyst (giving it its own invisible energy or cooldown on this, below is why)
Then the commander can drop cysts that will start slowly infesting the area around it, all cysts it connects to start growing vines towards this new cyst, connecting it to the network.
The DI will then start growing along the vine at an increased speed, covering walls and ceilings as well after a while.
Destroying a cyst will make the DI retract/die off if its over extending its maximum reach.
However, the DI will try to save itself if it has the energy/is off cooldown, by planting a weak cyst/mini cyst.
Marines can burn infestation to kill it off faster/instantly where the fire touches, vines dont die unless the cyst it connects to is destroyed, so if the DI is burned off but the cyst/vine is still alive it will just re-spread again.
So to sum it up, this is what would happen:
-DI spreads itself at a slow pace, covering not only the ground but walls and such as well.
-When DI reacher X distance from its last Cyst AND it has energy/is off cooldown it will create a weak/mini cyst to increase the network.
-Once it build the minicyst it will start spreading again.
-The alien commander can drop cysts, these cysts will then link up using vines (that grow from the existing cysts towards the new one) to all cysts in range (higher lvl cysts have a larger range)
-The DI will then spread along those vines at an increased speed (compared to spreading on its own)
-The further a cyst is away the thinner the line of infestation growth initially will be ( the Vine/cyst is spreading its infesting power over a bigger area after all)
A marine dying on DI would be "consumed" boosting/refilling the DI´s energy (which it uses to create its cysts) or give a small boost to the speed it spreads at.
If a marine severes the network by killing a cyst the DI will try to restore itself by dropping one of its mini cysts if it can (energy/cooldown), it not the unconnected network slowly dies and the DI retracts, from outwards to inwards like now.
So instead of having the com spread infestation the infestation does this on its own, the comm would only give it a means to do it faster or to direct it.
I think that would also add to the biological feel.
Just be careful about balance issues.
As of right now marines can sprint away from alien lifeform in the middle of a fight (esp to reload). aliens can obviously catch up but it usually takes a while... ie enough time for marine to finish reloading
Removing the 'no shooting for a second after running' will just make it easier to do so.
I can already imagine a new marine 'skill' involving running and shooting non stop
Sounds interesting, wondering what it is. Hoping it isn't basically ubercharge as that can be kind of annoying in the high-damage environment of NS, it works in TF2, partly because that game still has knockback, but even there the game is a bit too focussed on it.
But there are lots of other things it could be, so let's wait and see.
That's the only thing I just read that makes sense.
probly a temperary ability the commander activates to allow for faster sheild recharges
Wait. NS2 has shields? I haven't seen them yet.
I'd like to wait to <b>see</b> what this is.
I'd like to wait to <b>see</b> what this is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i meant marine armor repair
Any hints devs?
Edit didnt read above quite right, pretty much the jist of it in last option given
Been waiting for more little additions like this.
Wonder if it's like a typical shield, something held in front of the body, rather than a whole body encompassing force-field.
Like the DI will slowly spread on its own if left alone, covering a room completely, so walls and ceiling included.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is the eventual plan. The infestation will grow to a set amount fairly quickly, after a cyst has been placed, and then it will continue to grow slowly on its own. This will allow it to grow up on walls and maybe ceilings. So, ideally, a hive room would become completely covered in infestation after while.
--Cory
I'd like to wait to <b>see</b> what this is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nano Shield:
<img src="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6702975/ns2/nano_shield.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Impervious to Phaser fire and Photon torpedoes. But not Quantum torpedoes. Those are explosive!
^_^
very good question.
it sounds a lot overpowered...except if onos smash a marine ^^
edit: couldn't get tickets this year cuz i was too late, not making that mistake again - purchased. See you in the South End in the Bean in April! Promise my map will be done by then :)
edit2: you should have gorge plushies and switchaxe keychain bottle openers and unknownworlds tshirts and a dunk tank with one of the brians sitting on top and obvi some booth babes, preferably from one of our fine strip clubs in the greater boston area.
~ Tig