Does this mean we'll get to see a phantom Onos? I read somewhere that they have the model and graphics in place. It'd be completely pointless as everyone would know it's a phantom but would still be cool to see the tank in all its glory!
The whole phantom thing is not interesting in my opinion. Aliens are faking around with cloak and hit/escape already, why have an additional deception when the marines got non at all. It's too much of fooling them rather than hitting them. Also it's wasting a player's time when instead he could bite an marine off in the short term.
If it would be an skill that has to be activated and then works on its own, like creating three fake buildings in a radius where no players are involved at all it would make more sense. But then it's still a buzzkill for marines to find the hay in the needlestack. Shooting is awesome, but if you're forced to do it all the time without knowing what to expect it's kinda lame.
Cloaking does the job in perfection - the other skill has to bring an advantage to the aliens without getting on the player's nerve rather than on the marine nerve.
I kinda have to agree, phantom structures sound okay, but phantom players mostly sounds like it'd end up just taking one person out of the game for a while to fool around. It might work on occasion don't get me wrong, but I don't see this being used effectively often other than maybe decoy hive/structure drops to buy a bit of time/waste Obs energy (probably the most useful part really).
Here's hoping it's more helpful than I think it'll be though, tricking them into wasting Obs energy might be useful actually to keep beacon use down.
The whole idea of phantasms sounds kinda bad from a player perspective.
From a team and commander point of view, you have useful bullet sponges, but from a player perspective, what exactly are you accomplishing? You can't do anything as a phantasm other than get shot and die, if players are ever in a position where spending their time getting shot and dying is the most productive thing they can do, then something is pretty seriously wrong.
I dunno about the phantom idea. They sound a bit too corporeal to me, as if they're more like surrogates rather than ghosts, and I imagine they will be used more like meat shields rather than tools of deception. It will be interesting to see how it works out, though. As for the inactive alien, why not just cloak it? It will be sitting motionless right next to a Shade, after all. That way it isn't too vulnerable without being untouchable.
Yeah, I don't really see them as being all that useful. A phantasm structure could have some value though, or possibly if the phantasm could be spawned and then move around on it's own or be controlled by the commander. But, I can't imagine too many scenarios where my time would be better spent moving a phantasm around rather than moving my myself around.
Really wish more effort would be placed on NS1 born end game features like Heavy, JP, HMG, Onos, etc. Or even on polishing that which has already been established.
Too much thought going into phantasms which haven't been proven, when there are many others that have been and are not implemented yet.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
I'd actually like to see the phantoms to be NPCs rather than players. So the alien comm spawns a phantom and then sends it with the players on attack as a distraction. Though, it'd be nice if they were smarter than the Drifter/MAC/ARC NPC (i.e. auto attack, can set to aggressive/defensive/retreat, movement waypoints, etc.) Otherwise, the phantom would be instantly noticeable due to its poor/unintuitive responses.
ACTUALLY ...Scardy, its still a good idea ... what if you send a wave of phantasms near the marines, they notice the AI behavior and dont worry about it...but in the line of phantasms is a real player action like he/she is AI controlled.
Comm controlled Phantasms would bypass the AI issues and would rock, no damage but the deception would be insane. Have the phantoms cost in energy to maintain rather than create one, so you make a phantom for 1 energy but it costs x / sec to keep it up. Gives the Alien comm something to do after housechores are done.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1870073:date=Aug 19 2011, 12:12 PM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Aug 19 2011, 12:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1870073"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ACTUALLY ...Scardy, its still a good idea ... what if you send a wave of phantasms near the marines, they notice the AI behavior and dont worry about it...but in the line of phantasms is a real player action like he/she is AI controlled.
Comm controlled Phantasms would bypass the AI issues and would rock, no damage but the deception would be insane. Have the phantoms cost in energy to maintain rather than create one, so you make a phantom for 1 energy but it costs x / sec to keep it up. Gives the Alien comm something to do after housechores are done.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's what I was thinking too. It would give the alien comm some ability to coordinate/micro their players like the marine comm with med/ammo/catpacks. Though, I'd still like to see at least a little more intelligent NPC gameplay. At the very least, they should respond to attacks in some way (fight back or flee, rather than just stand there and take it).
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Give the aliens the ability to mimic a marine like in Enemy Territory: Quake Wars. The phantasm would look just like a marine and take a random player name from the match. Would be funny acting like you're covering a real marine building a res node, then laughing as you watch a skulk come up and kill him.
Perhaps put dead time to some use and let players control a phantom while gestating or respawning? Maybe it's possible to combine all the ideas by letting the commander be able to direct or control the phantoms, letting the phantoms otherwise roam freely as dumb NPCs and allowing players to control them while spawning/gestating?
aeroripperJoin Date: 2005-02-25Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
I see some useful scenarios for phantasms:
1) An army of ghosts invading marine start near end game, with real players mixed in.
2) Aliens are all mostly in data core hive. The aliens hide in good spots around the shade and launch phantasms that make it appear they're on the FC/Heli side of the map. Marines rush data core hoping to take it out, aliens kick out of their phantasm and slaughter all the marines, then promptly rush to MS to end the game.
3) The alien comm in alien start needs someone to respond to marines attacking crevice node, but the team is busy defending data core hive. The alien comm hops out of the hive and into a fade phantasm and distracts the marine or two in crevice for long enough for other players to respond.
4) 3 Players go phantasm lerk and dive bomb marines in crevice to exhaust all their ammo, while skulks exit the vent once their ammunition is spent shooting the fake lerks. Useful in situations where aliens are running low on res.
It will require some teamwork to see some more of the cooler strategies that are possible. Looking forward to trying it out.
<!--quoteo(post=1870087:date=Aug 19 2011, 10:28 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Aug 19 2011, 10:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1870087"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is no way you would be able to get the NPC to behave like a real player. You can spot bots a mile off.
However, I don't like UWE's solution either - it just takes someone off the field who could be fighting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this.
after reading the design log, shade ideas are just aren't good at all. sensory chamber should act as it has done in ns1.
shade
1. let it cloak everything in its radius, including itself (...) 2.allow the gorge to build this chamber, same with other chambers so gorges can spread them around the map 3.allow cloaked aliens to move while being cloaked but only while walking 4.resize the chamber itself, it shouldn't be so huge to the point I can spot it mile away. Sensory chamber should actually be much smaller in size, and be something hard to notice 5.adding the same energy to the health bars to show level of cloak
naturally scan or being in orbs radius would disable cloaking
just build a shade in vent (or so) spawn a couple of phantasm-fades and get the aliens to use em to attack at flight control. while all marines moving out to defent it, the aliens who die (or better: press "use" again and your phantasm-alien goes *poof* and you are back in your own skin) attack the now cleared marine base... Or an other situation but with the same shade in vent: The aliens defending the heli port hife with phantasm-aliens and suddently all phantasms disappear and the marine base is under attack base from behind.....
and this is just the peak of the taktics-iceberg. It will bring a whole new level into the game!
I am looking forward to it :)
I wonder why everybody is skeptical.. just wait how it turns out in the game... and then you have enough time to complain.. or to praise.
I just don't like the Phantasm idea. It would be good if they could be bots, but like others have said you can't do that convincingly. In general I think this premise of a chamber for confusion and misdirection won't ever be balanceable. Skilled players will stop being fooled by fakeouts, they'll know how to use scanner sweep as a hard counter, etc. Sens chambers in NS1 were only viable against skilled teams because of focus, the rest was gravy. I think Shades need to stick with abilities without hard counters. I like the distortion field on the chamber for example. And don't forget the lessons of NS1's cloak - cloak limited to walking or standing still sucks. I think we can do without cloak entirely actually, it's never fun to play against.
Why, as an alien, would I want to become a fake alien that does no damage or provide any resources, when I could stay a real alien and kill marines, plant working structures etc? Not exactly criticizing...just a bit baffled.....
<!--quoteo(post=1870096:date=Aug 19 2011, 06:23 PM:name=aeroripper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (aeroripper @ Aug 19 2011, 06:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1870096"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I see some useful scenarios for phantasms:
1) An army of ghosts invading marine start near end game, with real players mixed in.
2) Aliens are all mostly in data core hive. The aliens hide in good spots around the shade and launch phantasms that make it appear they're on the FC/Heli side of the map. Marines rush data core hoping to take it out, aliens kick out of their phantasm and slaughter all the marines, then promptly rush to MS to end the game.
3) The alien comm in alien start needs someone to respond to marines attacking crevice node, but the team is busy defending data core hive. The alien comm hops out of the hive and into a fade phantasm and distracts the marine or two in crevice for long enough for other players to respond.
4) 3 Players go phantasm lerk and dive bomb marines in crevice to exhaust all their ammo, while skulks exit the vent once their ammunition is spent shooting the fake lerks. Useful in situations where aliens are running low on res.
It will require some teamwork to see some more of the cooler strategies that are possible. Looking forward to trying it out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) Attack fails as it is only able to do half as much damage.
2) Marines rush Heli expecting aliens to be protecting a new hive, kill all phantoms taking no damage, decide to set up secondary base.
3) Alien com does no damage as a phantom fade so the marines ignore him and take out he cysts and their isn't a com to replace them.
4) This actually kinda sounds like fun :D
Personally I am very skeptical of the phantom alien idea, but I'm willilng to see how it plays out first before condemning it entirely. Could be fun to send the marines running in terror from a Gorge dressed as an Onos :D
Improve, refine, optimize and polish our level editor, cinematics editor (FX) and tool chain. Work with the users of our tools (level designers, artists, player-creators) to make the tools among the best the industry has seen.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Awesome to hear! I was worried that the spark tools wouldn't get many new features/bug fixes/love until the NS2 v1.0 release. I'd also add a replay recorder to the list of tools for spark as it is sorely needed (and would probably help Hugh keep some sanity throughout the tournament). In particular, I'd love to see a mix of the FPS capturing qualities of the source demo recorder and the in-depth stats recording of an RTS replay system like SC2.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Want to work on Natural Selection 2? We could use your help! (RTs much appreciated): <a href="http://t.co/hn7UJ0i" target="_blank">http://t.co/hn7UJ0i</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Man, i hope this has nothing to do with the fact that there are no new technical tasks D:
<!--quoteo(post=1870694:date=Aug 23 2011, 03:33 PM:name=Zeno)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zeno @ Aug 23 2011, 03:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1870694"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Man, i hope this has nothing to do with the fact that there are no new technical tasks D:<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nooooo, you had to say it. Now you jinxed it :(
Comments
On the bright side, we might get to play with Phantoms next build. :D
I imagine Phantoms would be mostly controlled by Skulks and Gorges. Fades, Lerks and Onooos are too expensive to be fooling around.
If it would be an skill that has to be activated and then works on its own, like creating three fake buildings in a radius where no players are involved at all it would make more sense. But then it's still a buzzkill for marines to find the hay in the needlestack. Shooting is awesome, but if you're forced to do it all the time without knowing what to expect it's kinda lame.
Cloaking does the job in perfection - the other skill has to bring an advantage to the aliens without getting on the player's nerve rather than on the marine nerve.
a phantom hive seems cool, but not that useful since 90% of the time a hive is detected by a scan, witch will remove it.
hopefully it will work out nicely, we'll just have to wait and see.
Here's hoping it's more helpful than I think it'll be though, tricking them into wasting Obs energy might be useful actually to keep beacon use down.
Having the Shade spawn "changelings" that look and move like Marines would be fun though.
From a team and commander point of view, you have useful bullet sponges, but from a player perspective, what exactly are you accomplishing? You can't do anything as a phantasm other than get shot and die, if players are ever in a position where spending their time getting shot and dying is the most productive thing they can do, then something is pretty seriously wrong.
Too much thought going into phantasms which haven't been proven, when there are many others that have been and are not implemented yet.
Comm controlled Phantasms would bypass the AI issues and would rock, no damage but the deception would be insane. Have the phantoms cost in energy to maintain rather than create one, so you make a phantom for 1 energy but it costs x / sec to keep it up.
Gives the Alien comm something to do after housechores are done.
Comm controlled Phantasms would bypass the AI issues and would rock, no damage but the deception would be insane. Have the phantoms cost in energy to maintain rather than create one, so you make a phantom for 1 energy but it costs x / sec to keep it up.
Gives the Alien comm something to do after housechores are done.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's what I was thinking too. It would give the alien comm some ability to coordinate/micro their players like the marine comm with med/ammo/catpacks. Though, I'd still like to see at least a little more intelligent NPC gameplay. At the very least, they should respond to attacks in some way (fight back or flee, rather than just stand there and take it).
However, I don't like UWE's solution either - it just takes someone off the field who could be fighting.
1) An army of ghosts invading marine start near end game, with real players mixed in.
2) Aliens are all mostly in data core hive. The aliens hide in good spots around the shade and launch phantasms that make it appear they're on the FC/Heli side of the map. Marines rush data core hoping to take it out, aliens kick out of their phantasm and slaughter all the marines, then promptly rush to MS to end the game.
3) The alien comm in alien start needs someone to respond to marines attacking crevice node, but the team is busy defending data core hive. The alien comm hops out of the hive and into a fade phantasm and distracts the marine or two in crevice for long enough for other players to respond.
4) 3 Players go phantasm lerk and dive bomb marines in crevice to exhaust all their ammo, while skulks exit the vent once their ammunition is spent shooting the fake lerks. Useful in situations where aliens are running low on res.
It will require some teamwork to see some more of the cooler strategies that are possible. Looking forward to trying it out.
However, I don't like UWE's solution either - it just takes someone off the field who could be fighting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this.
after reading the design log, shade ideas are just aren't good at all. sensory chamber should act as it has done in ns1.
shade
1. let it cloak everything in its radius, including itself (...)
2.allow the gorge to build this chamber, same with other chambers so gorges can spread them around the map
3.allow cloaked aliens to move while being cloaked but only while walking
4.resize the chamber itself, it shouldn't be so huge to the point I can spot it mile away. Sensory chamber should actually be much smaller in size, and be something hard to notice
5.adding the same energy to the health bars to show level of cloak
naturally scan or being in orbs radius would disable cloaking
just build a shade in vent (or so) spawn a couple of phantasm-fades and get the aliens to use em to attack at flight control. while all marines moving out to defent it, the aliens who die (or better: press "use" again and your phantasm-alien goes *poof* and you are back in your own skin) attack the now cleared marine base...
Or an other situation but with the same shade in vent: The aliens defending the heli port hife with phantasm-aliens and suddently all phantasms disappear and the marine base is under attack base from behind.....
and this is just the peak of the taktics-iceberg. It will bring a whole new level into the game!
I am looking forward to it :)
I wonder why everybody is skeptical.. just wait how it turns out in the game... and then you have enough time to complain.. or to praise.
1) An army of ghosts invading marine start near end game, with real players mixed in.
2) Aliens are all mostly in data core hive. The aliens hide in good spots around the shade and launch phantasms that make it appear they're on the FC/Heli side of the map. Marines rush data core hoping to take it out, aliens kick out of their phantasm and slaughter all the marines, then promptly rush to MS to end the game.
3) The alien comm in alien start needs someone to respond to marines attacking crevice node, but the team is busy defending data core hive. The alien comm hops out of the hive and into a fade phantasm and distracts the marine or two in crevice for long enough for other players to respond.
4) 3 Players go phantasm lerk and dive bomb marines in crevice to exhaust all their ammo, while skulks exit the vent once their ammunition is spent shooting the fake lerks. Useful in situations where aliens are running low on res.
It will require some teamwork to see some more of the cooler strategies that are possible. Looking forward to trying it out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) Attack fails as it is only able to do half as much damage.
2) Marines rush Heli expecting aliens to be protecting a new hive, kill all phantoms taking no damage, decide to set up secondary base.
3) Alien com does no damage as a phantom fade so the marines ignore him and take out he cysts and their isn't a com to replace them.
4) This actually kinda sounds like fun :D
Personally I am very skeptical of the phantom alien idea, but I'm willilng to see how it plays out first before condemning it entirely.
Could be fun to send the marines running in terror from a Gorge dressed as an Onos :D
Improve, refine, optimize and polish our level editor, cinematics editor (FX) and tool chain.
Work with the users of our tools (level designers, artists, player-creators) to make the tools among the best the industry has seen.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Awesome to hear! I was worried that the spark tools wouldn't get many new features/bug fixes/love until the NS2 v1.0 release. I'd also add a replay recorder to the list of tools for spark as it is sorely needed (and would probably help Hugh keep some sanity throughout the tournament). In particular, I'd love to see a mix of the FPS capturing qualities of the source demo recorder and the in-depth stats recording of an RTS replay system like SC2.
Man, i hope this has nothing to do with the fact that there are no new technical tasks D:
Nooooo, you had to say it.
Now you jinxed it :(
Particle board does count as wood, does it?
A quote from Charlie's dev conference speech.