<!--quoteo(post=1847103:date=May 18 2011, 06:59 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ May 18 2011, 06:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1847103"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do I detect a slight doubt as to whether that will ever happen?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well every other game in the world manages to fix it so I would imagine NS2 will get it fixed too.
My point was more that it is actually possible to fix technical issues, however serious they are, whereas I know of no way to fix people.
<!--quoteo(post=1847279:date=May 19 2011, 10:45 AM:name=Insane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Insane @ May 19 2011, 10:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1847279"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thaldarin, Harimau: this is the only warning I'm going to give you. Stop behaving like bickering children or I'll give you both a week away from the forums.
And then I will laugh, and laugh, and laugh.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe you want to pass the message along to Papayas too.
<!--quoteo(post=1847328:date=May 19 2011, 01:25 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ May 19 2011, 01:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1847328"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe you want to pass the message along to Papayas too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You just managed to behave like a child and tell Insane how to moderate.
<!--quoteo(post=1847059:date=May 18 2011, 12:35 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ May 18 2011, 12:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1847059"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS1 by state NS1 by movement NS1 by gameplay NS1 by netcode NS1 by everything bar the one below. NS2 by lighting effect.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
even though some might not want to agree, it is the truth. aside from performance issues, the game itself lost all the elements ns1 built anything from classes to gameplay, and much more. while ns2 offers new features, the foundations of ns1 is missing.
<!--quoteo(post=1847307:date=May 19 2011, 01:00 PM:name=bl1tz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bl1tz @ May 19 2011, 01:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1847307"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS1 because it was on the half life one engine
Even if the sequel is completed I don't see it being as fun as the first. It seems like it was designed for new players and while there are plenty of new features, that doesn't really necessarily make it a better game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
agreed. Much of the game has been dumbed-down for new players. Much of the game elements ns1 had almost perfectly working is missing from ns2.
as I've said before charlie needs to remember ns1, and copy working ideas which worked for so many years.
<!--quoteo(post=1847377:date=May 19 2011, 06:37 PM:name=luns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (luns @ May 19 2011, 06:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1847377"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->even though some might not want to agree, it is the truth.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1847377:date=May 19 2011, 05:37 PM:name=luns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (luns @ May 19 2011, 05:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1847377"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->as I've said before charlie needs to remember ns1, and copy working ideas which worked for so many years.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It seems like the whole universe was thrown out of the window and okay we've got familiar names and structures, although the core elements of the universe being things such as the tech tree system which involves the 3 core D/M/S stance which is just making it's way back in (after a what, 2 working year absence?) is starting to unite the gameplay.
There's not much point in designing a game to be played publicly and competitively if it's too complex for casuals to drop in and play, with multiple commanders, complicated tree systems and commander/personal shared upgrading just screwing everything up meaning people have to read a manual to play.
With the direction they're heading with the game, NS1 is going to be vastly superior. They're making changes for nothing more than the sake of making changes. Put NS1 on your nice new prettified engine and add in DI from that preview vid and you've got a winner.
And you are talking for the sake of talking, because you cant realize that there wont be another ns1 - there is already a ns1.
Why would you just copy the game and call it ns2?
IF you want to play ns1 play it.
And of course its not a one day job to define gameplay, you got ideas you test ideas you stomp ideas you recycle ideas - streamlining takes a while... You cant see the bigger pictures, how it evolves. NS1 wasnt finished in one day either.
I understand him perfectly, namely that he wishes there to be a new NS(1) built for current-day hardware. NS1 is pretty old, and it shows: low-res textures, low-fi sound, low-poly models, relatively small maps, simple architecture et cetera. Something like NS:Source (or similarly) is very much desired, and many people bought into NS2 thinking they'd get just that (and some new features \ gameplay elements). Alas, not all was what it seemed, and I'm not blaming anyone (though I could). If anything, there will be a strong desire for an NS-Classic Lua-mod. That is, when (and if) NS2 will ever get it's act together.
Maybe it will be some kind of ns2:source, we dont know yet do we? Whole bunch of changes and ideas floating around... and more to come - im sure.
PS: I knew from day one their plan was to make ns2, and not just a "ns:source"
Even if they just did a ns:source, a whole bunch of ppl would make such a thread and say bah - cheap remake, or like it was with cs:source... what a crap compared to the good old classic.
At this time NS2 is already better than NS1, only thing I can not stand right now is server performance sucks! The framerate performance and stability is no longer an issue for me like it was in previous builds.
<!--quoteo(post=1847466:date=May 19 2011, 05:20 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ May 19 2011, 05:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1847466"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I understand him perfectly, namely that he wishes there to be a new NS(1) built for current-day hardware. NS1 is pretty old, and it shows: low-res textures, low-fi sound, low-poly models, relatively small maps, simple architecture et cetera. Something like NS:Source (or similarly) is very much desired, and many people bought into NS2 thinking they'd get just that (and some new features \ gameplay elements). Alas, not all was what it seemed, and I'm not blaming anyone (though I could). If anything, there will be a strong desire for an NS-Classic Lua-mod. That is, when (and if) NS2 will ever get it's act together.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's exactly right. The game as it stands now is beautiful. I love the new lighting effects and just the graphics engine in general. I'm constantly thinking "Wow!" every time I run by a chain-link fence section with my flashlight on or running down a hallway with those spinning fan things. If we could just have the great gameplay from NS1 that everyone is here for on this awesome new engine then I would certainly be a happy camper.
<!--quoteo(post=1847465:date=May 20 2011, 12:06 AM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ May 20 2011, 12:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1847465"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And you are talking for the sake of talking, because you cant realize that there wont be another ns1 - there is already a ns1.
Why would you just copy the game and call it ns2?
IF you want to play ns1 play it.
And of course its not a one day job to define gameplay, you got ideas you test ideas you stomp ideas you recycle ideas - streamlining takes a while... You cant see the bigger pictures, how it evolves. NS1 wasnt finished in one day either.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you made NS1, very slightly different because things have moved on since 2002-4, you've got a very marketable retail game.
There's a reason NS was one of the most played*modifications in a modification market of many modifications. It also had community support too, people made a lot of models. There was a lot of interest in custom mapping and there was even good high quality texture sets being made specifically for the modification.
NS2 at the moment, has literally no one making custom content compared to NS1. Yes, there is custom content coming through, like ns_summit for example, like Govrmind, although they are only a few examples of high quality. To coin a phrase, back in the day, there was a lot of high quality, not a few diamonds in the rough. I don't simply believe "oh games are harder to make now", that's bull######, plain and simple. People need to move with the times and quickly.
Make what you will of NS1 and NS2, as I have and everyone will. However, NS1 had a massive custom following which NS2 doesn't have. I feel like others if we get more "NS1 like", but add subtle improvements, the player base, the custom content will improve and the game will move further.
EDIT:
I don't think I've said it previously however with the more "open" way NS2 is being created, not involving the community further with custom creation, the people that made NS1 live longer, they've damaged their development. That's my opinion though.
I didnt want to say making it more "ns1 like" would be a bad idea, i just wanted to say you shouldnt judge work in progress as if it was finished. But im quiet now - its your right to say that you unhappy with the current situation. Im too, but i have the faith that uwe will get it right... and hopefull this year :P
<!--quoteo(post=1847472:date=May 20 2011, 01:36 AM:name=PersianImm0rtal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PersianImm0rtal @ May 20 2011, 01:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1847472"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->At this time NS2 is already better than NS1<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1847475:date=May 20 2011, 12:39 AM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ May 20 2011, 12:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1847475"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Make what you will of NS1 and NS2, as I have and everyone will. However, NS1 had a massive custom following which NS2 doesn't have. I feel like others if we get more "NS1 like", but add subtle improvements, the player base, the custom content will improve and the game will move further.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thing is, I agree with your points in your previous post but for me, I cannot see the logic in modding something that is currently in such a state of flux.
Decisions that I would have thought would have been made long ago like the Tech Trees and the D/M/S seem to be being revisited all of a sudden. Granted this is not the final product but after spending a long time making the game engine, I would have thought the game design decisions would have been fairly finalised to the point that these late changes would be few and far between. That's something UWE is doing and that's their business so i'm not criticising that.
But as I said, for a game that is still having fundamental gameplay design decisions being made, it doesn't make sense to spend a long time creating custom content.
I missed the beginning of NS1 and therefore did not see the first few iterations but I bet that modders had a far more stable (not in terms of crashing etc) set of parameters to work with.
<!--quoteo(post=1847510:date=May 20 2011, 12:09 AM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ May 20 2011, 12:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1847510"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Except for all the patches... I don't remember seeing any modding for 1.0x except for the /stuck plugin<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And boy do I miss /stuck
Thaldarin, do you realize that UWE are already using community contributions for coding, minimap and suggestions (both radical ideas and you who prefer NS1 and voice it, are taken into consideration in their brainstorms). On top of that, dispite building an entirely new engine, they are aiming to provide the best mod tools a community can have.
<!--quoteo(post=1847475:date=May 20 2011, 12:39 AM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ May 20 2011, 12:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1847475"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's a reason NS was one of the most played*modifications in a modification market of many modifications. It also had community support too, people made a lot of models. There was a lot of interest in custom mapping and there was even good high quality texture sets being made specifically for the modification.
NS2 at the moment, has literally no one making custom content compared to NS1. Yes, there is custom content coming through, like ns_summit for example, like Govrmind, although they are only a few examples of high quality. To coin a phrase, back in the day, there was a lot of high quality, not a few diamonds in the rough. I don't simply believe "oh games are harder to make now", that's bull######, plain and simple. People need to move with the times and quickly.
Make what you will of NS1 and NS2, as I have and everyone will. However, NS1 had a massive custom following which NS2 doesn't have. I feel like others if we get more "NS1 like", but add subtle improvements, the player base, the custom content will improve and the game will move further.
EDIT:
I don't think I've said it previously however with the more "open" way NS2 is being created, not involving the community further with custom creation, the people that made NS1 live longer, they've damaged their development. That's my opinion though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There was little to no custom content being created before NS 1.0. Likewise there's no reason to assume there's going to be a lot of content created until NS2 1.0. Most people are waiting to see how the gameplay fully develops, and for the tools to be finalized. In the case of NS1 there was already finished modding tools available from Valve to use, and a finished engine that people were already familiar with. The comparison between the modding community post NS 1.0 and the community pre NS2 1.0 seems like a stretch.
On the art side, we have not yet put out the planned tools necessary to easily get new gameplay assets into the game. And whether you believe it or not, games these days are a lot harder to make. Its one of the reasons why the modding scene is not nearly as large as it was back in the days of NS1. There's a big difference between a 1200 poly marine model, with 1 texture map like NS1, and a 10-12k model, that was first modeled high poly, then had normal maps rendered out and applied, along with high res textures and spec maps and gloss maps, etc. Coming from the person who made most of the art for NS1, trust me, its a whole different ballgame now with this generation of games.
On the mapping side, people have been waiting for performance improvements and gameplay to be finalized, so that they don't have to rework their maps to greatly. Several of the mappers that had started working on custom maps we've actually brought on board and have now been working on maps internally. Similar to NS1, its likely that the best maps, at least from a gameplay standpoint, will come after the game is complete, because they will be designed and built around final gameplay.
Map and art content aside, we've already had a lot more programming involvement then we did on NS1, due to the openness and ease of use of the Lua scripting. Every patch we're incorporating bug fixes, and features submitted by the community now.
We have many plans to fully support the modding community, but all our effort at the moment is focused on finishing NS2 first.
Comments
Well every other game in the world manages to fix it so I would imagine NS2 will get it fixed too.
My point was more that it is actually possible to fix technical issues, however serious they are, whereas I know of no way to fix people.
And then I will laugh, and laugh, and laugh.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe you want to pass the message along to Papayas too.
You just managed to behave like a child and tell Insane how to moderate.
He advised you stop doing both.
Also there is no NS1!
NS1 by movement
NS1 by gameplay
NS1 by netcode
NS1 by everything bar the one below.
NS2 by lighting effect.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
even though some might not want to agree, it is the truth. aside from performance issues, the game itself lost all the elements ns1 built anything from classes to gameplay, and much more. while ns2 offers new features, the foundations of ns1 is missing.
<!--quoteo(post=1847307:date=May 19 2011, 01:00 PM:name=bl1tz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bl1tz @ May 19 2011, 01:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1847307"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS1 because it was on the half life one engine
Even if the sequel is completed I don't see it being as fun as the first. It seems like it was designed for new players and while there are plenty of new features, that doesn't really necessarily make it a better game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
agreed. Much of the game has been dumbed-down for new players. Much of the game elements ns1 had almost perfectly working is missing from ns2.
as I've said before charlie needs to remember ns1, and copy working ideas which worked for so many years.
Oh ok then.
It seems like the whole universe was thrown out of the window and okay we've got familiar names and structures, although the core elements of the universe being things such as the tech tree system which involves the 3 core D/M/S stance which is just making it's way back in (after a what, 2 working year absence?) is starting to unite the gameplay.
There's not much point in designing a game to be played publicly and competitively if it's too complex for casuals to drop in and play, with multiple commanders, complicated tree systems and commander/personal shared upgrading just screwing everything up meaning people have to read a manual to play.
Why would you just copy the game and call it ns2?
IF you want to play ns1 play it.
And of course its not a one day job to define gameplay, you got ideas you test ideas you stomp ideas you recycle ideas - streamlining takes a while...
You cant see the bigger pictures, how it evolves. NS1 wasnt finished in one day either.
PS: I knew from day one their plan was to make ns2, and not just a "ns:source"
Even if they just did a ns:source, a whole bunch of ppl would make such a thread and say bah - cheap remake, or like it was with cs:source... what a crap compared to the good old classic.
You cant make everybody happy - ever.
That's exactly right. The game as it stands now is beautiful. I love the new lighting effects and just the graphics engine in general. I'm constantly thinking "Wow!" every time I run by a chain-link fence section with my flashlight on or running down a hallway with those spinning fan things. If we could just have the great gameplay from NS1 that everyone is here for on this awesome new engine then I would certainly be a happy camper.
Why would you just copy the game and call it ns2?
IF you want to play ns1 play it.
And of course its not a one day job to define gameplay, you got ideas you test ideas you stomp ideas you recycle ideas - streamlining takes a while...
You cant see the bigger pictures, how it evolves. NS1 wasnt finished in one day either.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you made NS1, very slightly different because things have moved on since 2002-4, you've got a very marketable retail game.
There's a reason NS was one of the most played*modifications in a modification market of many modifications. It also had community support too, people made a lot of models. There was a lot of interest in custom mapping and there was even good high quality texture sets being made specifically for the modification.
NS2 at the moment, has literally no one making custom content compared to NS1. Yes, there is custom content coming through, like ns_summit for example, like Govrmind, although they are only a few examples of high quality. To coin a phrase, back in the day, there was a lot of high quality, not a few diamonds in the rough. I don't simply believe "oh games are harder to make now", that's bull######, plain and simple. People need to move with the times and quickly.
Make what you will of NS1 and NS2, as I have and everyone will. However, NS1 had a massive custom following which NS2 doesn't have. I feel like others if we get more "NS1 like", but add subtle improvements, the player base, the custom content will improve and the game will move further.
EDIT:
I don't think I've said it previously however with the more "open" way NS2 is being created, not involving the community further with custom creation, the people that made NS1 live longer, they've damaged their development. That's my opinion though.
But im quiet now - its your right to say that you unhappy with the current situation. Im too, but i have the faith that uwe will get it right... and hopefull this year :P
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Thing is, I agree with your points in your previous post but for me, I cannot see the logic in modding something that is currently in such a state of flux.
Decisions that I would have thought would have been made long ago like the Tech Trees and the D/M/S seem to be being revisited all of a sudden.
Granted this is not the final product but after spending a long time making the game engine, I would have thought the game design decisions would have been fairly finalised to the point that these late changes would be few and far between. That's something UWE is doing and that's their business so i'm not criticising that.
But as I said, for a game that is still having fundamental gameplay design decisions being made, it doesn't make sense to spend a long time creating custom content.
I missed the beginning of NS1 and therefore did not see the first few iterations but I bet that modders had a far more stable (not in terms of crashing etc) set of parameters to work with.
I don't remember seeing any modding for 1.0x except for the /stuck plugin
I don't remember seeing any modding for 1.0x except for the /stuck plugin<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And boy do I miss /stuck
It'd sure beat killing myself when it happens.
NS2 at the moment, has literally no one making custom content compared to NS1. Yes, there is custom content coming through, like ns_summit for example, like Govrmind, although they are only a few examples of high quality. To coin a phrase, back in the day, there was a lot of high quality, not a few diamonds in the rough. I don't simply believe "oh games are harder to make now", that's bull######, plain and simple. People need to move with the times and quickly.
Make what you will of NS1 and NS2, as I have and everyone will. However, NS1 had a massive custom following which NS2 doesn't have. I feel like others if we get more "NS1 like", but add subtle improvements, the player base, the custom content will improve and the game will move further.
EDIT:
I don't think I've said it previously however with the more "open" way NS2 is being created, not involving the community further with custom creation, the people that made NS1 live longer, they've damaged their development. That's my opinion though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There was little to no custom content being created before NS 1.0. Likewise there's no reason to assume there's going to be a lot of content created until NS2 1.0. Most people are waiting to see how the gameplay fully develops, and for the tools to be finalized. In the case of NS1 there was already finished modding tools available from Valve to use, and a finished engine that people were already familiar with. The comparison between the modding community post NS 1.0 and the community pre NS2 1.0 seems like a stretch.
On the art side, we have not yet put out the planned tools necessary to easily get new gameplay assets into the game. And whether you believe it or not, games these days are a lot harder to make. Its one of the reasons why the modding scene is not nearly as large as it was back in the days of NS1. There's a big difference between a 1200 poly marine model, with 1 texture map like NS1, and a 10-12k model, that was first modeled high poly, then had normal maps rendered out and applied, along with high res textures and spec maps and gloss maps, etc. Coming from the person who made most of the art for NS1, trust me, its a whole different ballgame now with this generation of games.
On the mapping side, people have been waiting for performance improvements and gameplay to be finalized, so that they don't have to rework their maps to greatly. Several of the mappers that had started working on custom maps we've actually brought on board and have now been working on maps internally. Similar to NS1, its likely that the best maps, at least from a gameplay standpoint, will come after the game is complete, because they will be designed and built around final gameplay.
Map and art content aside, we've already had a lot more programming involvement then we did on NS1, due to the openness and ease of use of the Lua scripting. Every patch we're incorporating bug fixes, and features submitted by the community now.
We have many plans to fully support the modding community, but all our effort at the moment is focused on finishing NS2 first.
--Cory
However, I can't but to say that I remember having a lot more fun with NS1?
Anyways, NS2 has a lot of potential and it's really unfair to make a decision given that it's not complete.