Tech Points Re-Envisioned

KuBaN

<div class="IPBDescription">Now With 25% More Strategy!</div><u>Preface:</u>
Now with the arbitrary "Tier Research" upgrades going away, and the Marines with (let's face it) little incentive to expand, Tech Points are starting to look like Hive locations again. If Tech Points are to have as vital a role in the game as it seems they were initially intended, incentive to expand needs to be comparable for both teams, and right now it isn't. The CC solution suffered from issues that overshadowed the strategic elements it hoped to provide, but cutting Technology from Tech Points entirely would make these points entirely obsolete.

<u>Analysis:</u>
The Alien race currently have (planned) 5 core structures; 4 research chambers (Whip, Crag, Shift, Shade) and the Hive.
The Marines currently have (planned) 5 core structures; 4 research structures (Armory, Robotics Factory, Observatory, Prototype Lab) and the Command Station.
The advised number of Tech Points per map is currently 5 to 6.
A team can potentially control up to 1 less than the total number of Tech Points (so 4 in the case of Tram and Rockdown).

<u>Suggestion:</u>
<!--coloro:#4DB1FF--><span style="color:#4DB1FF"><!--/coloro--><u><b>Marines</b></u>: Make structures that provide Technology (other than the Armory) <i>placeable</i> only on Tech Points. At each expansion, you are gaining access to a new path/branch in the tech tree.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Tech Structures would include:
<ul><li><b>Command Station</b>: Unlocks additional IPs, MACs, Commanders</li><li><b>Observatory</b>: Unlocks Scan, Distress Beacon, Phase Gates (and Transponders if they aren't scrapped).</li><li><b>Robotics Factory:</b> Unlocks the ARC, ARC Upgrades, MAC upgrades (possibly Sentry Turrets?)</li><li><b>Prototype Laboratory:</b> Unlocks Exosuit, Exosuit Upgrades, Jetpack, Jetpack Upgrades</li></ul>
+ There are typically only one of these structures built at any one time anyways (any more would be useless).
+ All other structures (Armory, Infantry Portal, Extractor, Sentry Turret, Power Pack, Phase Gate) would be Basic structures, their placement unrestricted by Tech Points.
+ Since the first Marine Tech Point is always be a Command Station, Marines will be as hard pressed to expand (for new tech) as Aliens are.
+ Building duplicate structures in a 5 Tech Point map would limit your available technology, so the incentive for this would need to be as large as the risk.
+ I can see potential incentive in multiple Robotics Factories (ARC Rush), Observatories (if Phase Gates are tethered to Observatories and accessible via the IP Tansponder), and Command Stations (more so if MACs and/or IPs were limited to 1-2 per CC).
+ While the Armory is a Core structure, they are too crucial to the game to be limited by the number and location of Tech Points. Also (conveniently), there are already 4 potential Tech-Structures with the CommChair included.


<!--coloro:#FFCA3A--><span style="color:#FFCA3A"><!--/coloro--><u><b>Aliens</b></u>: Allow Whips, Crags, Shifts, and Shades to be built at Tier 1, but give each Chamber-type a <i>Maturation Upgrade</i> researched from the Hive that upgrades all chambers of that type to their Mature forms. All Chamber Maturations are available at Tier1 , but only one Chamber-type can be Matured per Hive/Tech Point. Aliens will still expand with Hives, and Hives will indirectly unlock access to advanced research.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<ul><li><b>Whip</b>: Lerk, Bloodthirst (Skulk), Corpulence (Gorge), Melee Upgrades</li><li><b>M.Whip</b>: Piercing (Lerk), Bombard (Whip)</li><li><b>Crag</b>: Gorge, Carapace (Skulk), Bacteria (Gorge), Armor Upgrades</li><li><b>M.Crag</b>: Bone Shield (Onos), Babblers (Crag)</li><li><b>Shift</b>: Fade, Adrenaline (Lerk)</li><li><b>M.Shift</b>: Sap (Fade), Feint (Fade), Echo (Shift)</li><li><b>Shade</b>: Onos*, Feed* (Skulk), Hydra* (Gorge)</li><li><b>M.Shade</b>: Stomp* (Onos), Phantasm (Shade)</li></ul>
+ All lifeforms can be accessed from Tier 1, but pricing and upgrades will limit their potency.
+ All structures can be accessed from Tier 1, but their effectiveness would be limited in their immature forms.
+ Similar to NS1's implementation, without the hard building restrictions, dependency on 3 of each chamber for all upgrades, or 3 Hives for all Lifeforms.
+ Structure pricing will need to be tweaked, but this is true currently regardless, in light of the recent alien changes.

<u><b>Conclusion:</b></u>
Both Commanders are provided with choice, and the structures they build and the order in which they are built will have an affect on the game's progression. Additionally, Tech Points remain intuitively true to their name, and have comparable importance to both sides, returning them to their intended status.

<!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro--><u><b>TL;DR:</u>
Re-Tie Tech to Tech Points. Link the Marines 4 Core structures to Tech Points instead of the arbitrary CommChair. Link the Mature Chamber upgrades to Hive count (Linking Chambers to Tech Points is too restrictive, and Hives are arguably more important)!</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->

* Anticipated/Rumored/Suggested Values

Jason Whore

I like this very much BEACUASE it seems stupid for marines to have multiple (nearly always) empty comm chairs all over the map... with the vote function you can even kick noob comms and many players hate multi comm play...
and it would be epic to have f.E. in tram an observatory tech node (with the satelite thing, computers, boxes etc. those all will somehow take all the space of the tech point) in the holo room and a prototype lab in the midle of the map - skulks would attackt this one more because its a big danger for them. so every tech point would be protected/attacked differently..

IeptBarakat

Great, now the only time you'll see the full diversity of structures and abilities present in ns2 is when the round is over.

It's a nice idea with incentive to expand but once the scales are tipped in favor of one team you'll <i>never</i> see a comeback.

ScardyBob

+1

However, I don't think this is likely to get implemented because its a step back to tying tech lvl to tech nodes (which UWE seems to be going away from). On the marine side, I'd still like the ability to build IPs near captured tech nodes (so if you dropped an observatory on a tech node, you could still drop an IP within its build radius).

KuBaN

<!--quoteo(post=1845307:date=May 10 2011, 06:31 PM:name=IeptBarakat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ May 10 2011, 06:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1845307"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Great, now the only time you'll see the full diversity of structures and abilities present in ns2 is when the round is over.

It's a nice idea with incentive to expand but once the scales are tipped in favor of one team you'll <i>never</i> see a comeback.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, you'd see it just before that :P

Well all have little to gauge how the game is going to pan out. What we consider <i>rounds</i> at this point may be laughable little skirmishes by the time the rest of the content is included. Territory in general could turn out a lot less static and more vulnerable to quick game changers. Additionally, there will be 6-Point maps as well as 5-Point maps, so those larger ones would see all of the technology farther from the game's end. Even still, smaller more combat heavy maps featuring fewer Tech Points would be interesting to see as well. (A reasonable level of) <b>restriction breeds creativity.</b>

Also, remember all of the Marine equipment is purchased from the Armory which are not tied to Tech Points. That's a large chunk of progress that is a lot more difficult to take away than a Tech Point. If Marines lose a Robotics Factory they can't build ARCs, but they still retain all of their Tech Research (ARC upgrades, MAC upgrades). Additionally, all of the Alien upgrades are Researches, so they will persist as well. Some things will be lost, but not everything; it won't be a complete set-back.


<!--quoteo(post=1845308:date=May 10 2011, 06:33 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ May 10 2011, 06:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1845308"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->+1

However, I don't think this is likely to get implemented because its a step back to tying tech lvl to tech nodes (which UWE seems to be going away from). On the marine side, I'd still like the ability to build IPs near captured tech nodes (so if you dropped an observatory on a tech node, you could still drop an IP within its build radius).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Most of the "reasons to build command stations or hives" as described in the design decisions document are negligible. This "Tech Point" that by every indication should be as if not more important than Resources is now an utter waste of design space if they don't intend to do something else with it.

But I'm probably preaching to the choir...

CaCa

As I've expressed before, I like this idea. It makes tech points truly "meaningful" and encourages a real "territory control" type scenario, which is what I've always thought NS was about, instead of just "deathmatch with a twist".

Now, specificly referring to the Marines:

All this would especially make more sense to me if it would allow you to manage all upgrades from placed structures directly from the Commander menu and not have to go over and click on the relevant structure to fiddle with it's particular upgrades.
Of course the menu would have to be tidy and intuitive to include all these new entries, but it could be done (make relevant entries on the menu for each structure). It'd be a more intuitive exprerience, like easily getting to see what upgrades you had researched before a relevant structure got destroyed (if it's destroyed, it'd be all in red of course).

Also, I would prefer if you <b>could not</b> duplicate any structure except further CCs.

ScardyBob

<!--quoteo(post=1845317:date=May 10 2011, 04:57 PM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ May 10 2011, 04:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1845317"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Most of the "reasons to build command stations or hives" as described in the design decisions document are negligible. This "Tech Point" that by every indication should be as if not more important than Resources is now an utter waste of design space if they don't intend to do something else with it.

But I'm probably preaching to the choir...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I'd agree, but there are still some useful reasons to expand to other tech points (namely to deny them to the enemy and provide closer spawning locations for your team). However, the costs of doing so now far outweighs those meager benefits.

Align

Sounds pretty neat. Would it be acceptable to decouple the command station from this mechanic though? And allow armouries to be placed wherever, but only armouries placed on tech points can get upgrades/research.

Sewlek

i would like to see a change to command stations in generall: build as many and whereever you want, but not on the tech point! ips will be tide to them as before

instead on the tech point you can build one of the core buildings for technology, which requires you to
make a well thought decision. recycling tech buildings / reverting your first decision should cause some serious drawbacks
(losing alot of time / resources).

the benefit of <b>multiple</b> tech points would be: combination of 2 or more technologies. you would be able to swap them (as alien and marine) but it will cost time, resources and the loss of all upgrades / benefits (not loss, but they will be disabled).
imagine a scenario where 3 ARCs sieging your hive. instead of attacking them (the maybe well guarded ARCs), 2 fades decide
to backstab, destroy the robotics factory and ARCs power down.

this opens new possibilities of
1 base strategies (openers)
2 base strategies (mid game)
3 or more bases (endgame...)
and the counters to this large variety of strats

i would also like to see some additional passive ability of upgraded hives (for example stronger healing, spawning umbra as crag hive)

so, why give the commanders the option to change their decision?
for 2 reasons:

- making a fake decision and let your enemy scout you (he sees you go for scissors, so he goes for rock), but instead you cancel this tech way and go for paper.

- when you are stuck at one point in the game and have to change your tech/strat for a possible come back, otherwise your team would bleed out slowly and painfully.

1 base strategies (openers), basics:
- you simply chose a tech and rush it
- you wait your enemy to chose a tech and counter it
- you chose an uncommon tech and surprise your enemy

2 base stragies (mid game):
- have 1 primary tech, and a secondary which you swap from time to time (for confusing your enemy)
- basic strat scout and counter your enemies tech combo
- fake your tech choice...
- find uncommon combinations and surprise your enemy

3 base or more:
- endgame, have the better players and simply own your enemy

CrazyFarmer

The marine idea sounds really bad TBH, I don't think it's necessary to have tech points have more purposes for marines than they already do, when the game will have it's full features implemented, I'm pretty sure it will be important for marines to hold ground (RTs and power grid) and it will be easy for a map controlling alien team to win over 1basing marines (onos & fade)

For the aliens I'd just rather see the NS1 system with one new chamber per hive, it worked really well and I don't see much point in trying to find an alternative

Pfhreak

I absolutely <b>love</b> that marine idea -- with one condition: Marines need to be able to sell their structures. As long as Marines can cycle which tech building they are focusing on, then it strikes me as a fantastic reason for Marines to care about tech points.

Seriously, right now as a Marine I couldn't care less about securing tech points beyond periodically making sure they don't have a hive in them. I keep wishing there was something for our team to build in there. I might consider spreading some of the upgrades between multiple tech buildings. For example, jetpacks might be researched at the prototype lab, but improved at each of the other buildings in some way. Then Marines would <i>really</i> fight to control the maximal number of tech points.

Obraxis

I like the general idea of this. Would make marines HAVE to press out from their marines start, currently they don't need other tech points. Just RTs.

With some more tweaking I think this could be a good way forward.

PsiWarp

Interesting how similar my recent alien tech tree idea is from yours, first time I've read this too xD

I'm okay with both tech trees, though I'd like to try out UWE's version first for Marines.

KuBaN

<!--quoteo(post=1846738:date=May 17 2011, 08:53 AM:name=PsiWarp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsiWarp @ May 17 2011, 08:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846738"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Interesting how similar my recent alien tech tree idea is from yours, first time I've read this too xD<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Given how few assets the Aliens have, it's not improbable that someone else would come up with a similar idea :P

<!--quoteo(post=1846738:date=May 17 2011, 08:53 AM:name=PsiWarp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsiWarp @ May 17 2011, 08:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846738"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd like to try out UWE's version first for Marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You should check out Natural Selection ;)

CaCa

C'mon people! Make a push for this! At least the marine version.

'Coz from the looks of things, UWE's ideas are startin' to sound mighty "convoluted". That's not to say I prefer "dumbed down", but I feel kinda like they're losing track. This here idea would be a powerful stabilizer.

Koruyo

Great idea, marines are forced to take the obs first - because they cant defend that much space without phasegates*, take proto 2nd - because you have to be ready against those fades and onis, and maybe factory third....
And in the meantime they also have to rush flamethrowers so they can try to fight DI and mass hydras by the time its researched. (i wonder how you want to defend 2-3 technodes 3+ rts keep powernodes alive, DI away and be carefull that they dont just rush your ips)

Aliens respawn faster, both time and slots (3-8? eggs, that dont really need protection - they respawn too)
Aliens move faster, leap, fly etc. more or less from start.
Aliens can deny building at keypositions with DI.
Aliens got motion tracker with DI. (no sneaky oh ###### suprise)

Alien pressure => higher than marines.


This isnt thought trough and needs a lot more tweaking. (it would work if NS2 was a mirror match)


PS: You have to play a big map like summit_b1 to understand what i mean with pressure. Marines need ~35s sprint from marine to alien base.
Ok to be fair in 177, marines are very strong early game because of the crappy skulk bite, and can just rush and win.