Doors

KuBaN

<div class="IPBDescription">They get in the way</div>Preface: It seems Doors are currently a little confusing, and provide little advantage to either team, proving more of a nuisance than a strategic element. An unlocked door benefits neither side, since both teams may pass through it unhindered. A locked door hinders Marines more than Aliens, given the Marines relative lack of mobility. With all but one alien lifeform posessing some method of fast transportation, a welded door only really hinders an Onos temporarily, while barring every Marine from using the door as well. A locked door seems to provide identical problems.

Suggestion: Change doors to require Power to be operable.

<u><b>Open:</b></u> (Benefits Kharaa)
- <b>Condition</b>: Linked Power Node is Destroyed
- <b>Status</b>: Stays open until Power is Restored; CANNOT be welded

<u><b>Locked:</b></u> (Benefits Marines)
- <b>Condition</b>: Linked Node is Powered
- <b>Status</b>: Closed; Marine ground units still +use the door to open it; Marine Commander can operate the door; CAN be welded

<u><b>Welded:</b></u> (Benefits Marines at a cost):
- <b>Condition</b>: Door is Welded shut
- <b>Status</b>: Permanently closed; No Team has access; Destroying the linked Power Nodes will not unlock a welded door; only the Onos or Infestation can break it open

<!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->+<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Linking door-control to surrounding room control reinforces the concept of the Power Grid and an intuitive understanding of territorial control.
<!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->+<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Doors now provide advantage to the controlling team
<!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->+<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> The advantage of Locked doors over Welded doors is reinforced, as Locked doors become strictly better than Welded doors in most circumstances.
<!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->+<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Welding doors provides additional benefit in remaining shut even after Aliens take over an adjacent territory.

ScardyBob

<!--quoteo(post=1840187:date=Apr 7 2011, 11:03 AM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Apr 7 2011, 11:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1840187"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With all but one alien lifeform posessing some method of fast transportation, a welded door only really hinders an Onos temporarily, while barring every Marine from using the door as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

This.

Locked doors only hinder gorges and marines (though that will include onos eventually). That's pretty much why I rarely lock any of them when I command. Its like including a feature that drops alien res flow by a quarter and halves marine res flow but can only be activated by the marines. Why would I ever use such an option?

Papayas

I agree with you 100% with everything you just said.

Actually, the current doors affect the Kharaa the most at the moment because of the crappy door in Alien Start because it gets in the way of drifters.

KuBaN

<!--quoteo(post=1840319:date=Apr 8 2011, 04:29 PM:name=Papayas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Papayas @ Apr 8 2011, 04:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1840319"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually, the current doors affect the Kharaa the most at the moment because of the crappy door in Alien Start because it gets in the way of drifters.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, but that is a technical oversight rather than a balance decision.

KuBaN

So it looks like they implemented part of this suggestion (not necessarily taking credit, just validating the necro), and dare I say it works wonders!!! However, now with Marines able to +use locked doors to get through, there is no advantage for a Marine-controlled door to be Unlocked. An unlocked door now only benefits the Kharaa, yet the Marine Comm is given the option to unlock the door. I feel this is counter-intuitive.

Linking doors to Power Nodes as highlighted above gives Aliens the opportunity to disable a Locked door (by destroying the nodes), which reinforces the importance of the Power Grid, and also gives credence to Welding doors (which would keep a door shut even when the Power Node is destroyed), beyond their Onos-delaying function.

Chris0132

Actually unlocking a door is a good idea if your marines are moving through it a lot.

If you're trying to push into a room, having to constantly open the door is kind of annoying.

Also it is entirely possible that you may want to encourage alien movement through a door.

I think the best change currently would be to start all doors locked by default, then unlock them as neccesary.

Steinhauer

<!--quoteo(post=1843087:date=Apr 28 2011, 10:25 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Apr 28 2011, 10:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1843087"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also it is entirely possible that you may want to encourage alien movement through a door.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^This.

Rather than having the bastages crawling through the vents unsupervised, this way they are more directly in sight of your marines and can be managed. I think for a competent commander there is advantage to unlocking at least one door

Harimau

Heh, it's like Japanese feudal era castles. Come in and die.

Chris0132

Also you might consider not locking doors if there are onoses about, that way the aliens will probably leave them alone rather than smashing them down. Then you can lock them when they would do the most good.

There are quite a few reasons to unlock doors, not least because it would be a bit odd if aliens could do it but marines couldn't.

KuBaN

All good points for keeping the ability to Lock/Unlock doors in Marine-controlled (Powered) rooms! I would still like to see doors forcibly unlocked and remain opened (removing control from Marines) when it's Power Node is destroyed.

Chris0132

I don't agree, especially as power nodes are generally room based and doors are generally on the edge of rooms. How do you tell when it's powered or not? Moreover how does it interact with portable nodes?

Much easier to just use infestation, you can easily tell whether it has infestation on it.

Kouji_San

Keep in mind, DI is probably going to have some kind of influence over doors as well (breaking them down or disabling control?)

Chris0132

I thought it was supposed to unlock them? Doesn't it already?

KuBaN

<!--quoteo(post=1843196:date=Apr 29 2011, 04:20 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Apr 29 2011, 04:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1843196"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't agree, especially as power nodes are generally room based and doors are generally on the edge of rooms. How do you tell when it's powered or not?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
By the graphical indicators on the door. Or, according to my suggestion, you'd tell the door isn't powered because it would be wide open, whereas when powered it would be closed.
If you meant, "How do you tell which Node controls the door," technically it's whichever location brush the door is in, but in-game it's just something players would have to learn per map (destroy a node, observe if the door becomes ajar or not). Honestly though I've got <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=113057&view=findpost&p=1839967" target="_blank">different ideas</a> altogether about Power Nodes, which would make this less of an issue anyways.

<!--quoteo(post=1843196:date=Apr 29 2011, 04:20 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Apr 29 2011, 04:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1843196"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Moreover how does it interact with portable nodes?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Same way it interacts with everything else?

Chris0132

<!--quoteo(post=1843213:date=Apr 29 2011, 10:17 PM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Apr 29 2011, 10:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1843213"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you meant, "How do you tell which Node controls the door," technically it's whichever location brush the door is in, but in-game it's just something players would have to learn per map (destroy a node, observe if the door becomes ajar or not). Honestly though I've got <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=113057&view=findpost&p=1839967" target="_blank">different ideas</a> altogether about Power Nodes, which would make this less of an issue anyways.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

That isn't a good solution, it needs to be clear whether a door is locked or not, and why it is locked or not, and how you can unlock it/lock it again.

Power nodes are not a good way to do that.

KuBaN

<!--quoteo(post=1843268:date=Apr 29 2011, 10:25 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Apr 29 2011, 10:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1843268"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That isn't a good solution, it needs to be clear whether a door is locked or not, and why it is locked or not, and how you can unlock it/lock it again.

Power nodes are not a good way to do that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I may have been unclear. You would always be able to tell if the door is powered or not by looking at the door, same way you do now. If the door is wide open and doesn't close, then it is unpowered. Then just as usual, if the door's locked the lights are red, and if it's unlocked the lights are blue. As far as determining which Power Node controls a given door at the edge of a room, that's what players will figure out after playing the map once or twice.

Harimau

Good points, KuBaN. There should be visual indicators for all the door states: Broken(Permanently Open), Welded(Permanently Closed), Powered:Unlocked, Powered:Locked, and Unpowered(Open).

I agree with what someone here said: Controlled doors should be locked by default. Aliens would have to be wary of unlocked doors - are they there to facilitate smoother marine flow, would they prefer me to use this door instead of a vent and why, is the marine comm just a nice guy, or is it a trap?

Kurrine

<img src="http://www.ackbar.org/images/ackbar.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

Bacillus

Just out of interest, how do you feel the alien hit and run nature is coping with the increased amount of doors? In NS1 I remember absolutely loathing the chokepoints with door or elevator entrances. They were simply too difficult to breach in many cases.

Chris0132

Hasn't bothered me, you can always go round.

Josh86

Wouldn't welded and powered locked doors have the same purpose? The Onos can supposedly (I speculate) smash through an unpassable door. I think that would apply to welded or locked. Are we going to even have weldable doors or is the locking feature taking it's place, I wonder.

It's tough to be a Kharra in some situations. In early game, marines can control and pass through certain rooms at will by locking doors. Tram has doors right at the hive start, for instance. It's not purely advantageous, though. Needing to make a quick sprint to escape only being hindered by a locked door would mean sure death by the hands (claws) of Fades or an Onos (horn? mouth?).

Infestation and the flamethrower...infestation will be closer to hive rooms allowing those doors to stay open...locking marine room doors would be easier and follows more of a defensive type of play. Marines can't really control infested rooms (or the doors) until they get flamers...BUT now there are pustules....oh boy. So much in the mix now; the layers thing (A beats B, B beats C, C beats A) is getting jumbled a bit. Some stuff overlaps. Some things work ok, but it depends on the point of time in the round as well. I don't even want to think about it anymore sometimes. Eventually major decisions will result in something being cut, added, or drastically changed -- which I don't mind...as long as it all is balanced in the end.

I think there will be some balancing done with the doors, but I really like the new feature. I'm not completely aware of how power nodes affect doors to this day. I'm still assuming infestation will keep doors pried open. I wonder if the Onos will completely destroy the doors like in the teaser trailer?

Thaldarin

<!--quoteo(post=1843207:date=Apr 29 2011, 09:05 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Apr 29 2011, 09:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1843207"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Keep in mind, DI is probably going to have some kind of influence over doors as well (breaking them down or disabling control?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I think DI is supposed to be able to destroy/open. It would be good if a gorge could then "infest" the door back up or something similar. Never seen anything like that suggested.

Don't forget aswell, doors are to hinder the progress of a rampant Onos, as they have to crouch to get through it. Locking/welding them then means the Onos has to take a long way round, as most other life forms probably will do too.

My only concern is, for example with Tram, there is a door which a commander can lock from the game start outside Tram which then requires infestation to spread, to open it up again. Maybe that needs looked at, whether it's a change in the gameplay or if alien held areas can not be touched by the marines.

KuBaN

<!--quoteo(post=1843721:date=May 2 2011, 06:40 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ May 2 2011, 06:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1843721"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It would be good if a gorge could then "infest" the door back up or something similar. Never seen anything like that suggested.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You mean take over the door for Kharaa? I thought it would be cool if Infesting a gave the Aliens some unique advantage. For instance, if Gorge's were able to spit webbing across the threshold.

Thaldarin

I guess, sort of like a door, made out of infestation, only aliens could use.

Harimau

<!--quoteo(post=1843714:date=May 3 2011, 05:25 AM:name=Josh86)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Josh86 @ May 3 2011, 05:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1843714"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wouldn't welded and powered locked doors have the same purpose?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah. I think welded doors would be pointless, but I have heard the devs talk about welded doors, so I only kept it there for the sake of argument and completeness. Just like you, I also wonder whether welded doors are going to even make it in anymore, but I don't see why they should, because they provide no benefit not given by powered, locked doors, but give less benefit (choice) than powered, locked doors.

<!--quoteo(post=1843742:date=May 3 2011, 10:04 AM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ May 3 2011, 10:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1843742"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I guess, sort of like a door, made out of infestation, only aliens could use.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think I read this suggestion before.
It's interesting, but I think I like KuBaN's webbing take on it more.
Although, I think I prefer the Gorge to be able to web anywhere on infestation.

Chris0132

Infestation I'm sure is supposed to unlock doors, whereas it won't affect welded doors.

So welded doors will be proof against everything but onoses, whereas locked doors will presumably be much easier to open.

KuBaN

<!--quoteo(post=1843797:date=May 3 2011, 10:52 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ May 3 2011, 10:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1843797"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just like you, I also wonder whether welded doors are going to even make it in anymore, but I don't see why they should, because they provide no benefit not given by powered, locked doors, but give less benefit (choice) than powered, locked doors.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Welded doors will presumably take longer to destroy than their Locked counter-parts.
But also, assuming they implemented the aforementioned idea, Welded doors would have the benefit of not being forced open when the parent Power Node was destroyed. It's essentially jamming/barring the door.

Also, what Chris said

Harimau

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->take longer to destroy<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->not being forced open when the parent Power Node was destroyed<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Infestation ... won't affect welded doors<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Fair enough.

rhysjones81

Seeing as we live in the futuristic world of NS in this game why not have a small green light on a console by the door showing it is open, an Amber light showing that it has been locked but is still operational, and a red light symbolising loss of power and door functionality?

KuBaN

<!--quoteo(post=1844624:date=May 7 2011, 02:57 AM:name=rhysjones81)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rhysjones81 @ May 7 2011, 02:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844624"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Seeing as we live in the futuristic world of NS in this game why not have a small green light on a console by the door showing it is open, an Amber light showing that it has been locked but is still operational, and a red light symbolising loss of power and door functionality?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because the door itself already has this functionality, to some degree.