<!--quoteo(post=1835571:date=Mar 2 2011, 12:37 AM:name=Loey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Loey @ Mar 2 2011, 12:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835571"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Except you dont stand behind a recoiless weapon (check youtube video of iranian guy taking out his mate with an rpg), looking at the size of the launcher and projectile the rocket motor would be pretty small hence the arc and slower travel time.
I'd vote for underbarrel with little flashy lights on the side of the rifle to show how much ammo you have.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wait it could still be. Just make it like a mini javelin missile. That way it could have a little blast to get it clear of the launcher, and then ignite the main engine :P
<!--quoteo(post=1835571:date=Mar 2 2011, 05:37 AM:name=Loey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Loey @ Mar 2 2011, 05:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835571"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its not a Rocket Propelled Grenade<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's what I said?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and aside from the fact that RPG's have shaped charges and standard 40mm is a high explosive round, why would they not detonate on impact?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because they are grenades. The idea is you gain a tactical advantage by being able to fire at something not in your line of sight. Which is why they are great for killing Hydras.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS1 didnt detonate on impact and i dont remember people problems with that<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm relly not sure which side of the fence you are on here. But I don't think anything in NS1 should by definition have any impact on design choices in NS2.
Oo... I wouldn't go that far. Things in NS1 <b>should</b> have an impact on design choices in NS2. Because: 1) This is a sequel - this means it builds on the original. 2) The original worked well in many aspects (and in general), so it is worth using as a foundation.
Now, that's not to say that you MUST have a 1:1 copy of NS1 concepts or gameplay. Honestly, whatever should be in should be <b>whatever works best</b> - just because "it worked in NS1" doesn't mean it's the best approach. But I'm not saying that it <b>isn't</b> the best approach, it very well could be. That's something you have to experiment with and discover - something they can do in the current, early stages of balance and game design.
<!--quoteo(post=1835830:date=Mar 4 2011, 08:05 AM:name=Skiddywinks)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skiddywinks @ Mar 4 2011, 08:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835830"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm relly not sure which side of the fence you are on here. But I don't think anything in NS1 should by definition have any impact on design choices in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> which ever side moves the launcher from the side to underneath the barrel. whether or not it explodes on impact doesnt bother me too much as i will adjust my tactics to how it detonates, but an illogical side mounted grenade launcher will annoy me far more than impact or timer detonation, probably because i use rifles with gla's for a living.
UWE won't redesign the grenade launcher. It is finished and they have far more importand stuff to do then creating a new GL and throw the old design (on which they worked hours on and paid an other company to animate it) into the dumpster.
But I do agree that it looks strange that the grenade pops out of the barrel of the rifle - not out of the gauncher attachment. (It's like the lerkspikes come currently out of its toes).
<!--quoteo(post=1835890:date=Mar 4 2011, 04:05 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Mar 4 2011, 04:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835890"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oo... I wouldn't go that far. Things in NS1 <b>should</b> have an impact on design choices in NS2. Because: 1) This is a sequel - this means it builds on the original. 2) The original worked well in many aspects (and in general), so it is worth using as a foundation.
Now, that's not to say that you MUST have a 1:1 copy of NS1 concepts or gameplay. Honestly, whatever should be in should be <b>whatever works best</b> - just because "it worked in NS1" doesn't mean it's the best approach. But I'm not saying that it <b>isn't</b> the best approach, it very well could be. That's something you have to experiment with and discover - something they can do in the current, early stages of balance and game design.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's all I am saying; that just because it was in NS1 it doesn't mean it should be in NS2, or have any impact on NS2, unless it can stand on it's own merits. If it works well, is balanced, is fun, <i>and</i> happens to be in NS1 as well, then that is fine. But just being in NS1 is not enough of a reason for anything to be in NS2 by default.
<!--quoteo(post=1835904:date=Mar 4 2011, 05:43 AM:name=Loey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Loey @ Mar 4 2011, 05:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835904"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->which ever side moves the launcher from the side to underneath the barrel. whether or not it explodes on impact doesnt bother me too much as i will adjust my tactics to how it detonates, but an illogical side mounted grenade launcher will annoy me far more than impact or timer detonation, probably because i use rifles with gla's for a living.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To be honest, I quite like the look of where it is right now. Sure, it doesn't make much sense in terms of realism, but I think it looks cool, is easy to check at a glance for rounds left, and the actual loading mechanism looks wicked. If it were to just be your bog standard underslung launcher with a sliding load mechanism, it would be far more boring and the same as every other one.
So long as they get the animations correct, and sort out the whole feeling of the grenade not being connected to any sort of phsyics system, then I think it will be awesome.
<!--quoteo(post=1836043:date=Mar 4 2011, 09:54 PM:name=thecowsaysmoo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (thecowsaysmoo @ Mar 4 2011, 09:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1836043"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->cause the GL can be gotten early, and it is overpowered vs alien players. 1 player and single handily go in and kill a whole team without much effort.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here's yet another way to balance it so it's not overpowered.
Balancing explode on IMPACT:
1. At the extreme nerf end of the pool we can have it so it can only hurt ARMOR LEVELS and not health levels (so no instant kill ever). The exception being the ability to hurt structures which have no armor.
I prever option 2:
2. Dynamic explosion damage where: 1) the overall size/type of the alien, 2) the distance from the blast, and 3) the distance from the floor are taken into consideration to calculate how much damage the player should receive.
This would mean that if we had 2 skulks (one on the ceiling and one on the floor) at a equal distance from a grenade exploding on the floor (and within the grenades blast radius, which can be further balanced) that the skulk on the ceiling would receive more damage because of how grenades explode up and out.
The skulk, being the smallest? disposable free meatshield (and should die the most) alien, would also receive less damage then a fade simply because it is smaller then a fade. Basically each alien will be given a explosion-damage value so if a skulk, lerk, fade, and onos were all standing in a circle around an exploding grenade that the appropriate damage could be dealt to each.
A lerk in mid air over an explosion would recieve more damage then a lerk sitting on the floor. Incidently it is harder to kill a lerk that's in the air the one that is stationary so in terms of balance, it's nice how the GL helps marines to kill the much more protected/flying lerk.
Also from the bottom of post #13, a way to prevent marines from walking around with the GL at the ready to noob-toob aliens:
<!--quoteo(post=1835495:date=Mar 1 2011, 06:45 AM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Mar 1 2011, 06:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835495"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the grenade hits a surface very close to the marine then the grenade bounces + delayed detonation, otherwise if the shot is longer range then it will explode on impact. Not only does it prevent people from walking around with the GL at the ready, but we still get explode on impact when we need it most (i.e. longer range shooting)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It used to explode on impact and they changed it, you could easily take down fades, skulks and lerks with it. Now it actually excels in what it's supposed to, taking down structures.
The way it is now increases the skillcap of using it as well as leaves other weapons for taking down skulks and lerks. Otherwise they would have to tone down the damage to ridiculous levels. I don't see any reason to make it explode on impact, if it's not broken don't fix it.
The roles of the weapons are a little fuzzy right now but the grenade launcher was completely ridiculous when it detonated on impact with the floor, that's something everybody agreed on.
<!--quoteo(post=1835457:date=Mar 1 2011, 12:44 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Mar 1 2011, 12:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835457"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If it hits an enemy unit/structure it detonates on impact. Otherwise it bounces.
I would actually like the ability to control when it detonates. Sometimes, I would rather have it detonate on first impact, even if it doesn't hit an enemy unit/structure.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's always the team fortress solution; hold secondary fire to short-fuse the grenade(no firing yet), let go of secondary fire to launch the grenade when you think the fuse is short enough to achieve the desired effect.
<!--quoteo(post=1836162:date=Mar 5 2011, 06:20 PM:name=Soylent_green)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soylent_green @ Mar 5 2011, 06:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1836162"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's always the team fortress solution; hold secondary fire to short-fuse the grenade(no firing yet), let go of secondary fire to launch the grenade when you think the fuse is short enough to achieve the desired effect.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Eeek.
Just use Dystopia's. Secondary after a short delay turns all nades already fired into on-hit.
I don't think we need to do anything further to the grenade launcher gameplay wise, it is fine and balanced as it is right now, i extensively play on both the marine and alien teams and have never had a problem with using the grenade launcher, it excels in what it is meant for, taking out structures around corners. Have a problem with dozens of hydras? just lob a grenade around the corner, problem solved. Got a lot of whips around a corner? lob a few grenades in and you'll see results. That is exactly the way it works now, have been intended to work, and how it should work. You don't need another anti-life form weapon, you shouldn't be using a grenade launcher for that, you already have the shotgun, which any decent marine commander would have researched long before grenade launchers have even become available. If you have a problem with Skulks, Lerks, or Fades, you shouldn't even be buying a grenade launcher, you should be buying a shotgun because thats exactly what the shotgun was designed from the very start.
I know that NS2 is independent and is in no way a clone of NS1, but this is the way it worked in NS1, and it was fine, hardly anyone complained and was never overpowered. Back then it had the role of taking out structures, and honestly, thats the way it should be, and i believe is the dev's intent as well. So if the mechanic worked in NS1 for the same purpose that is being employed in NS2, then theres no need to fix what was never broken. By the sequel formula of video games 33% old, 33% new, and 33% improved, the grenade launcher would already fit in the improved category, since it is now an attachment rather then a independent weapon. There are other suggestions on how to balance the grenade launcher while keeping it detonate on impact, but it just doesn't fit and adds unnecessary complexity to an already elaborate game
Looking back, i can honestly say the patch when the dev's changed the grenade launcher from a detonate on impact, to a timed detonation, was probably the best gameplay change that they have ever made throughout Natural selection 2's public alpha/beta development.
<!--quoteo(post=1835447:date=Feb 28 2011, 10:59 PM:name=louis cardinal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (louis cardinal @ Feb 28 2011, 10:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835447"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->every FPS that has a grenade launcher that i have played so far allows direct hits to explode.
i think this is necessary.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It is overpowered and was removed from the game. It will not be coming back.
This is the where the whole thinking of XYZ situational based and weapon defined roles come in.
If the grenade exploded on impact you'd have to drop its damage radius and strength dramatically, which would be a lot worse for game play. Everything starts to become samey, nothing can be really powerful and nothing can be really weak.
I'd prefer weapons that actually mimic their actual power but with nerfs in more innovative ways that add to game play.
Anyone who went through the early tests of this game will know how ridiculous the explode on impact grenade launcher is. More so because this is not a round based game, you can easily reload and easily spam.
Not exploding on impact was the intervention, and it is working well. I'd perhaps like to see detonation being slower (perhaps beeping before detonation), but the explosion more powerful (more structure based) with less rounds in the gun.
It would be nice if one day the old NS1 hand grenades would find there way into NS2. Lets see they would be delay detonation + short range and require an upgrade to unlock... O right just like the ###### grenade launcher we have now. Guess the only way to make the hand grenades fit into the game is to make our GL something more then a delayed-hand-grenade-launcher.
So what's wrong with NS1 style explosion on lifeform contact only? the GL attachment was overpowered mostly due to the fact that you could miss a skulk by a foot, and still kill it instantly. In NS1, a GL could miss a skulk with all 4 nades in an open space, or flush out easily a skulk hiding in a cramped vent.
<!--quoteo(post=1836392:date=Mar 8 2011, 12:34 AM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Mar 8 2011, 12:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1836392"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is nothing wrong with a good shot or a lucky bounce. It does explode on direct impact.
Ns1 was exactly the same as is now, not sure what the fuss is about.
The only thing I'd say is weapons like the gl and flamer don't feel like they have a particular role. With the shotgun being multi role.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have a good point there but the flamer will be used for clearing (And is currently used) Dynamic Infestation. The grenade laucher is good for killing a base but not as effective as the Flamer. Even less so against the shotgun.
I agree that the shotgun has a multi-role due to the fact that it does amazing damage against everything.
-Easy to kill skulks (1 shot kill) -Moderately easy to kill fades (2.5 - 3 shot kill) -Easy - Moderately easy to kill Lerks (1 - 2 kill?) -Easy to kill Haversters (Haversters have: 2000 HP + 250 Armour. Extracters have: 6000HP + 500 armour I think... Unbalanced much?) -Kills sturctures as easy as it kills Skulks
I have come to the conclusion that the Shotgun's damage needs a nerf. :)
I think where this game stalemates is when you incorporate high health defences that really have no counter. We are seeing that at the moment with the lack of Onos and ARC, and even if one side is dominating, if both teams are well established it takes a long time to finish a game because lack of access.
Obviously when these are introduced it won't be so much of a problem, but for me it sort of gives debate to what the GL and Flamers purpose are. They are sort of in between the anti life form weapons of the early game and the anti-structure weapons that are yet to come.
The flamer will obviously have a greater role once DI is fully introduced, but apart from that it seems a bit wishy washy, as is the GL.
To conclude what I am talking about, if you imagine a game playing out with all of this implemented, the best route will be to skip GL and Flamer and go straight for the ARC and EXO as Marines. The Flamer may be needed to clear the way for the ARC, but the GL could end up being a waste of resources.
Perhaps the GL could have some upgrades to make it more of an area denial weapon. Perhaps a grenade types that are researchable and can be fired into different rooms for different situations.
- Flashbang style grenade that gives out an audio signal and disrupts alien vision/view. - Nerve Gas that prevents aliens from using their specials (blink, leap, upgrades)
So you sort of fire it into a room from outside (as is used now) before you enter a hive. So it becomes 'area' support, rather than the shotguns 'defensive' support.
Can't comment on the flamer because I think the addition of trailing flames will make a big difference.
If there is some way of supporting the idea of higher damage coming about by direct damage (i.e. firing repeatedly straight into something without moving the cross-hair much) rather than indirect (waving it around at lifeforms) I think that would be a good way of having a powerful weapon that is effective against DI/Structures but not moving lifeforms.
I haven't seen any problem with the GL as is. But, the FT is a whole lot of *happy panda*!
Currently it goes through walls and doesn't really act like what a FT would. I beleive it out to be a very slow and dangerous weopon to use, eg;
Moving forward whilst firing results in loss of armor/health Slower rate of fire
Such a weopon is bound with several mechanisms that all need to connect before firing and need to safely close when idle.
And personally, I would like to see some ratio of team damage for explosions/fire. The frontiersman uniform may be bullet proof, but exposure to heat should still have some dibilitating affect.,
<!--quoteo(post=1836447:date=Mar 8 2011, 04:06 AM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Mar 8 2011, 04:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1836447"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Perhaps the GL could have some upgrades to make it more of an area denial weapon. Perhaps a grenade types that are researchable and can be fired into different rooms for different situations.
- Flashbang style grenade that gives out an audio signal and disrupts alien vision/view. - Nerve Gas that prevents aliens from using their specials (blink, leap, upgrades)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/index.php/Grenade_Launcher_Attachment" target="_blank">Wiki</a> it acutally says that there will be some nerve gas grenades, but I'm not sure if UWE still intends to impliment that.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Grenades DO explode when in contact with aliens & structures. The Grenade Launcher is already a good siege weapon, as well as being an area deny weapon. If anything, increasing the length of the fuse would make the GL a better support weapon, since Marines will be able to cover an area in grenade "mines".
<!--quoteo(post=1836533:date=Mar 8 2011, 11:02 PM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Mar 8 2011, 11:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1836533"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->as well as being an area deny weapon. If anything, increasing the length of the fuse would make the GL a better support weapon, since Marines will be able to cover an area in grenade "mines".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who said the GL's role was area-denial, and how could an increased detonation delay help the situation? xD
Anyway, right now the <u>TURRET</u> is for area-denial.
The GL's extremely limited quantity of ammunition means there is no way a marine can perform "area-denial" with a NS2-GL. Maybe you'll kill a skulk that wondered into a room after you died, and if you call that "area-denial" then your right... an increased detonation delay would help you get more of those types of skulk-kills.
Detonation on impact will make it easier for marines to perform a support role by allowing them to hit targets from a distance without the grenades bouncing all over the place. And because of the GL's LIMITED ammunition it is 100% necessary that every shot hits what your aiming at, which is why detonation-on-impact is needed. But i do agree, there should be other types of ammo such as a launchable proximity-mine-grenade that explodes when a skulk walks bye xD
No... the turret is for area DEFENSE. Area denial is a whole other ball park. Lerk spores are area denial; in contrast, hydras are not - hydras are area defense. If you were able to utterly spam turrets (i.e. they did not cost so much as 20 resources), then you could use it for long-term area denial. But, you can't.
Comments
I'd vote for underbarrel with little flashy lights on the side of the rifle to show how much ammo you have.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wait it could still be. Just make it like a mini javelin missile. That way it could have a little blast to get it clear of the launcher, and then ignite the main engine :P
That's what I said?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and aside from the fact that RPG's have shaped charges and standard 40mm is a high explosive round, why would they not detonate on impact?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because they are grenades. The idea is you gain a tactical advantage by being able to fire at something not in your line of sight. Which is why they are great for killing Hydras.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS1 didnt detonate on impact and i dont remember people problems with that<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm relly not sure which side of the fence you are on here. But I don't think anything in NS1 should by definition have any impact on design choices in NS2.
1) This is a sequel - this means it builds on the original.
2) The original worked well in many aspects (and in general), so it is worth using as a foundation.
Now, that's not to say that you MUST have a 1:1 copy of NS1 concepts or gameplay. Honestly, whatever should be in should be <b>whatever works best</b> - just because "it worked in NS1" doesn't mean it's the best approach. But I'm not saying that it <b>isn't</b> the best approach, it very well could be. That's something you have to experiment with and discover - something they can do in the current, early stages of balance and game design.
which ever side moves the launcher from the side to underneath the barrel. whether or not it explodes on impact doesnt bother me too much as i will adjust my tactics to how it detonates, but an illogical side mounted grenade launcher will annoy me far more than impact or timer detonation, probably because i use rifles with gla's for a living.
It is finished and they have far more importand stuff to do then creating a new GL and throw the old design (on which they worked hours on and paid an other company to animate it) into the dumpster.
But I do agree that it looks strange that the grenade pops out of the barrel of the rifle - not out of the gauncher attachment.
(It's like the lerkspikes come currently out of its toes).
1) This is a sequel - this means it builds on the original.
2) The original worked well in many aspects (and in general), so it is worth using as a foundation.
Now, that's not to say that you MUST have a 1:1 copy of NS1 concepts or gameplay. Honestly, whatever should be in should be <b>whatever works best</b> - just because "it worked in NS1" doesn't mean it's the best approach. But I'm not saying that it <b>isn't</b> the best approach, it very well could be. That's something you have to experiment with and discover - something they can do in the current, early stages of balance and game design.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's all I am saying; that just because it was in NS1 it doesn't mean it should be in NS2, or have any impact on NS2, unless it can stand on it's own merits. If it works well, is balanced, is fun, <i>and</i> happens to be in NS1 as well, then that is fine. But just being in NS1 is not enough of a reason for anything to be in NS2 by default.
<!--quoteo(post=1835904:date=Mar 4 2011, 05:43 AM:name=Loey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Loey @ Mar 4 2011, 05:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835904"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->which ever side moves the launcher from the side to underneath the barrel. whether or not it explodes on impact doesnt bother me too much as i will adjust my tactics to how it detonates, but an illogical side mounted grenade launcher will annoy me far more than impact or timer detonation, probably because i use rifles with gla's for a living.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To be honest, I quite like the look of where it is right now. Sure, it doesn't make much sense in terms of realism, but I think it looks cool, is easy to check at a glance for rounds left, and the actual loading mechanism looks wicked. If it were to just be your bog standard underslung launcher with a sliding load mechanism, it would be far more boring and the same as every other one.
So long as they get the animations correct, and sort out the whole feeling of the grenade not being connected to any sort of phsyics system, then I think it will be awesome.
Here's yet another way to balance it so it's not overpowered.
Balancing explode on IMPACT:
1. At the extreme nerf end of the pool we can have it so it can only hurt ARMOR LEVELS and not health levels (so no instant kill ever). The exception being the ability to hurt structures which have no armor.
I prever option 2:
2. Dynamic explosion damage where: 1) the overall size/type of the alien, 2) the distance from the blast, and 3) the distance from the floor are taken into consideration to calculate how much damage the player should receive.
This would mean that if we had 2 skulks (one on the ceiling and one on the floor) at a equal distance from a grenade exploding on the floor (and within the grenades blast radius, which can be further balanced) that the skulk on the ceiling would receive more damage because of how grenades explode up and out.
The skulk, being the smallest? disposable free meatshield (and should die the most) alien, would also receive less damage then a fade simply because it is smaller then a fade. Basically each alien will be given a explosion-damage value so if a skulk, lerk, fade, and onos were all standing in a circle around an exploding grenade that the appropriate damage could be dealt to each.
A lerk in mid air over an explosion would recieve more damage then a lerk sitting on the floor. Incidently it is harder to kill a lerk that's in the air the one that is stationary so in terms of balance, it's nice how the GL helps marines to kill the much more protected/flying lerk.
Also from the bottom of post #13, a way to prevent marines from walking around with the GL at the ready to noob-toob aliens:
<!--quoteo(post=1835495:date=Mar 1 2011, 06:45 AM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Mar 1 2011, 06:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835495"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the grenade hits a surface very close to the marine then the grenade bounces + delayed detonation, otherwise if the shot is longer range then it will explode on impact. Not only does it prevent people from walking around with the GL at the ready, but we still get explode on impact when we need it most (i.e. longer range shooting)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The way it is now increases the skillcap of using it as well as leaves other weapons for taking down skulks and lerks. Otherwise they would have to tone down the damage to ridiculous levels. I don't see any reason to make it explode on impact, if it's not broken don't fix it.
I would actually like the ability to control when it detonates. Sometimes, I would rather have it detonate on first impact, even if it doesn't hit an enemy unit/structure.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's always the team fortress solution; hold secondary fire to short-fuse the grenade(no firing yet), let go of secondary fire to launch the grenade when you think the fuse is short enough to achieve the desired effect.
Eeek.
Just use Dystopia's. Secondary after a short delay turns all nades already fired into on-hit.
I know that NS2 is independent and is in no way a clone of NS1, but this is the way it worked in NS1, and it was fine, hardly anyone complained and was never overpowered. Back then it had the role of taking out structures, and honestly, thats the way it should be, and i believe is the dev's intent as well. So if the mechanic worked in NS1 for the same purpose that is being employed in NS2, then theres no need to fix what was never broken. By the sequel formula of video games 33% old, 33% new, and 33% improved, the grenade launcher would already fit in the improved category, since it is now an attachment rather then a independent weapon. There are other suggestions on how to balance the grenade launcher while keeping it detonate on impact, but it just doesn't fit and adds unnecessary complexity to an already elaborate game
Looking back, i can honestly say the patch when the dev's changed the grenade launcher from a detonate on impact, to a timed detonation, was probably the best gameplay change that they have ever made throughout Natural selection 2's public alpha/beta development.
i think this is necessary.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is overpowered and was removed from the game. It will not be coming back.
If the grenade exploded on impact you'd have to drop its damage radius and strength dramatically, which would be a lot worse for game play. Everything starts to become samey, nothing can be really powerful and nothing can be really weak.
I'd prefer weapons that actually mimic their actual power but with nerfs in more innovative ways that add to game play.
Anyone who went through the early tests of this game will know how ridiculous the explode on impact grenade launcher is. More so because this is not a round based game, you can easily reload and easily spam.
Not exploding on impact was the intervention, and it is working well. I'd perhaps like to see detonation being slower (perhaps beeping before detonation), but the explosion more powerful (more structure based) with less rounds in the gun.
On a more serious note, it is too easy using one hit kills like this. Reminds me of knife bugging people back in BF1942...
Ns1 was exactly the same as is now, not sure what the fuss is about.
The only thing I'd say is weapons like the gl and flamer don't feel like they have a particular role. With the shotgun being multi role.
Ns1 was exactly the same as is now, not sure what the fuss is about.
The only thing I'd say is weapons like the gl and flamer don't feel like they have a particular role. With the shotgun being multi role.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have a good point there but the flamer will be used for clearing (And is currently used) Dynamic Infestation.
The grenade laucher is good for killing a base but not as effective as the Flamer. Even less so against the shotgun.
I agree that the shotgun has a multi-role due to the fact that it does amazing damage against everything.
-Easy to kill skulks (1 shot kill)
-Moderately easy to kill fades (2.5 - 3 shot kill)
-Easy - Moderately easy to kill Lerks (1 - 2 kill?)
-Easy to kill Haversters (Haversters have: 2000 HP + 250 Armour. Extracters have: 6000HP + 500 armour I think... Unbalanced much?)
-Kills sturctures as easy as it kills Skulks
I have come to the conclusion that the Shotgun's damage needs a nerf. :)
Obviously when these are introduced it won't be so much of a problem, but for me it sort of gives debate to what the GL and Flamers purpose are. They are sort of in between the anti life form weapons of the early game and the anti-structure weapons that are yet to come.
The flamer will obviously have a greater role once DI is fully introduced, but apart from that it seems a bit wishy washy, as is the GL.
To conclude what I am talking about, if you imagine a game playing out with all of this implemented, the best route will be to skip GL and Flamer and go straight for the ARC and EXO as Marines. The Flamer may be needed to clear the way for the ARC, but the GL could end up being a waste of resources.
Perhaps the GL could have some upgrades to make it more of an area denial weapon. Perhaps a grenade types that are researchable and can be fired into different rooms for different situations.
- Flashbang style grenade that gives out an audio signal and disrupts alien vision/view.
- Nerve Gas that prevents aliens from using their specials (blink, leap, upgrades)
So you sort of fire it into a room from outside (as is used now) before you enter a hive. So it becomes 'area' support, rather than the shotguns 'defensive' support.
Can't comment on the flamer because I think the addition of trailing flames will make a big difference.
If there is some way of supporting the idea of higher damage coming about by direct damage (i.e. firing repeatedly straight into something without moving the cross-hair much) rather than indirect (waving it around at lifeforms) I think that would be a good way of having a powerful weapon that is effective against DI/Structures but not moving lifeforms.
Currently it goes through walls and doesn't really act like what a FT would.
I beleive it out to be a very slow and dangerous weopon to use, eg;
Moving forward whilst firing results in loss of armor/health
Slower rate of fire
Such a weopon is bound with several mechanisms that all need to connect before firing and need to safely close when idle.
And personally, I would like to see some ratio of team damage for explosions/fire. The frontiersman uniform may be bullet proof, but exposure to heat should still have some dibilitating affect.,
"every FPS that has X that i have played so far allows Y."
Kind of surprised this became a 3 page thread. Feeling silly just writing this bit.
- Flashbang style grenade that gives out an audio signal and disrupts alien vision/view.
- Nerve Gas that prevents aliens from using their specials (blink, leap, upgrades)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/index.php/Grenade_Launcher_Attachment" target="_blank">Wiki</a> it acutally says that there will be some nerve gas grenades, but I'm not sure if UWE still intends to impliment that.
Who said the GL's role was area-denial, and how could an increased detonation delay help the situation? xD
Anyway, right now the <u>TURRET</u> is for area-denial.
The GL's extremely limited quantity of ammunition means there is no way a marine can perform "area-denial" with a NS2-GL. Maybe you'll kill a skulk that wondered into a room after you died, and if you call that "area-denial" then your right... an increased detonation delay would help you get more of those types of skulk-kills.
Detonation on impact will make it easier for marines to perform a support role by allowing them to hit targets from a distance without the grenades bouncing all over the place. And because of the GL's LIMITED ammunition it is 100% necessary that every shot hits what your aiming at, which is why detonation-on-impact is needed. But i do agree, there should be other types of ammo such as a launchable proximity-mine-grenade that explodes when a skulk walks bye xD
If you were able to utterly spam turrets (i.e. they did not cost so much as 20 resources), then you could use it for long-term area denial. But, you can't.