I think make backpedaling 60% and allow backward strafing. Should be good then. I definitely like having the backward movement penalty back in, though. Surprising how one little thing makes it feel so much more like NS.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1818329:date=Dec 22 2010, 04:56 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Dec 22 2010, 04:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1818329"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Allowing backpedaling as the general response and balancing the game around it would be a lazy solution in my books. Disabling backpedaling creates opening for other responses, which have potential for a lot more variation and depth.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not really. Its just a marine nerf vs skulks. Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought that the point of a marine vs. skulk encounter was for the marine to take on the skulk headon vs. the skulk trying to ambush the marine. It just seems like a nerf in the wrong direction (e.g. skulks already beat marines in a 1v1 encounter). The better solution isn't to gimp marine movement, but to increase the skulk speed. As numerous people have pointed out, making backwards movement slower is awkward and not standard in fps games.
Also, NS2 != NS1. I get all the warm and fuzzy nostalgic feelings about NS1 on these forums, but there were serious flaws that made the mod a fun, but limited FPS/RTS. UWE should make the game they wanted in NS2, not a NS1 clone with better graphics.
There should be a speed reduction for moving backwards, otherwise killing skulks is silly easy... Backpeddling with a shotgun on fades is a joke... You can already sprint and make it impossible for a fade to kil you.
If anything this encourages more teamwork which is very good...
That said, its WAY too much... 40% or whatever its atm is bad. I would say start at 70-80%, then lower/raise it from there.
<!--quoteo(post=1818379:date=Dec 22 2010, 10:35 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Dec 22 2010, 10:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1818379"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about something like this? <img src="http://i52.tinypic.com/2luqmiv.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
The problem with keeping strafing speed when going backwards... is that you shouldn't be keeping strafe speed when going forwards either, because that would make your strafe+forward speed higher than your regular forward or strafe speed by a factor of sqrt(2). (Pythagoras.) That doesn't really make sense. In addition, with strafing+backpedaling your direction would instead be skewed (not 45 degrees backwards and to the right/left, but instead tan-1(40/100)=~22deg). This is a problem. (Unless of course that is the goal.) Thus the directions should be set at 45 degrees relative to one another (with 8 total directions, corresponding to keys pressed), with set movespeeds in either of these directions; rather than set movespeeds in the 4 cardinal directions, with addition of vectors in the intermediate directions.
Above based on the assumption that strafe speed = forward speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1818425:date=Dec 22 2010, 06:19 PM:name=Cerebral)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cerebral @ Dec 22 2010, 06:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1818425"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sign me up for this solution. Thanks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nah rather have it overall reduced, including backwards, or only for marines with flamethrowers. But definatly not for shotgun users...
The problem is that when marines unlock their flamethrowers, it's most likely that they win the match. But at the beginning when marines have smg and shotguns, they're getting owned. I have to say that I'm getting used to going left/right now, but sometimes up close it's still a discomfit.
<!--quoteo(post=1818323:date=Dec 22 2010, 04:36 AM:name=AtlantisThief)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AtlantisThief @ Dec 22 2010, 04:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1818323"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I didn't played NS1 so i can't really compare to it, but I think this is one of the things that a lot of players (and new players) will be frustrated about. It's not that common that a movement direction is reduced in speed, and so the normal FPS player will get into NS2 and say "wtf?".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ns/ns2 isnt a normal fps. moot point. i think the problem most of you are having is that they stupidly left in normal backspeed and you think its supposed to be that way, backpeddling dm style.. sorry but thats not how its supposed to be.
<!--quoteo(post=1818467:date=Dec 22 2010, 11:59 AM:name=RUben1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RUben1 @ Dec 22 2010, 11:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1818467"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nah rather have it overall reduced, including backwards, or only for marines with flamethrowers. But definatly not for shotgun users...
The problem is that when marines unlock their flamethrowers, it's most likely that they win the match. But at the beginning when marines have smg and shotguns, they're getting owned.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thats mostly due to the lag. on decent servers decent marines still hold their own.
<!--quoteo(post=1818418:date=Dec 22 2010, 09:50 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Dec 22 2010, 09:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1818418"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not really. Its just a marine nerf vs skulks. Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought that the point of a marine vs. skulk encounter was for the marine to take on the skulk headon vs. the skulk trying to ambush the marine. It just seems like a nerf in the wrong direction (e.g. skulks already beat marines in a 1v1 encounter). The better solution isn't to gimp marine movement, but to increase the skulk speed. As numerous people have pointed out, making backwards movement slower is awkward and not standard in fps games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you fail to see the point that ns isnt a "normal" or "standard" fps. marines shouldnt be fighting skulks 1 on 1. the game is designed to give the advantage to marines in numbers. thats why:
skulk > marine (usually) 1 on 1 fade > marine (98% of the time) 1 on 1 onos > marine (99.999999999999999999999999999999%)
the only alien class a marine should be able to handle on their on is the gorge and maybe lerk (and that has to be one bad lerk). Gorge isnt even a "battle" class. they were traditionally a support class. the "better solution" is to not run off alone. right now because of the splotchy hitreg a skulk has a better than average chance of going into a room and killing a marine with teamates. but as the betas get further up that isnt the case so much as it used to be.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought that the point of a marine vs. skulk encounter was for the marine to take on the skulk headon vs. the skulk trying to ambush the marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes. youre wrong. it should be MARINES taking on skulk(s) headon + support from commander/mac.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The better solution isn't to gimp marine movement, but to increase the skulk speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
just..... wow. yes, make skulks even faster, which would accelerate the leap and make skulks even better while keeping in the dm movement which encouraged marines to run off by themselves anyway. i thought you people didnt like ns combat..
I think that 40% speed might be a little bit to slow, but I do also agree on walking backwards slower makes sense (in a gameplay mechanics perspective, not realism (It aint hard to walk as fast backwards as forward)). Maybe 60% or something might be better.
Once the intuitive easy to learn hard to impossible to master skill based movement replacement for bunnyhopping for skulks is in, we'll have a lot more intel.
In any case, letting a ranged class move and attack simultaneously when facing a melee opponent enormously and hilariously increases ranged combat efficiency. Anyone who doesn't understand this concept need to look up "kiting". Anyone who knows what kiting is and disagrees with me is a retard. If the ranged attacker has a higher speed than the melee fighter, the ranged attacker wins no matter the health or DPS of either fighter and by default.
This is an obvious balance pitfall Unknown Worlds Entertainment has just decided to brute force into oblivion. They could have tried some finesse technique. Maybe slowly decreasing the backpedal speed over several patches. They could have altered the skulk in some convoluted backwards attempt to fix marines. Instead, they went with the most effective route of squashing this instantly with a little bit of over kill so they never have to think about this again.
Since Unknown Worlds Entertainment is not Activision-Blizzard, they do not have the same unique luxuries/resources (time, money, employees, experience) afforded to the best balance team in existence. They are an indie team developing their own engine and attempting to define a genre. They need to take the easy route because they can't waste anything. They can't do finesse.
Unknown Worlds Entertainment made the decision which took everything into account, the right decision. As Charlie said when the Beta was released, he said they had been obsessed with solving problems perfectly instead of just rolling through with what <b>works</b>. The alpha was long and barely any progress was made. In that same post, Charlie said things would change. Now UWE is making the right decisions considering their limitations, making some real visible progress on the technical, artwork, and gameplay sides of things. In my eyes, UWE is making good on that promise.
Does that mean not everything will be perfect for everyone? Yeah. Does it mean NS2 actually ships? Yeah.
Who cares if marine backpedal isn't perfect if NS2 doesn't ship? If UWE has to sacrifice a little bit from everything to make sure everything gets at least something. This is one of those imperfections.
In my opinion, you're all whining babies and need to train before you come back to the forums whining about how marine back pedal is nerfed. NS2 depends highly on skill. Not only should you get over it, you need to embrace it because you're going to see a lot more of skill dependency coming up. Revolutionary idea for an FPS in these times, I know, but I think if you guys understand NS2 is about limitless player growth instead of limitless avatar growth, you'll be a lot happier. There's no way to be perfect, but there's always more growth. Not many contemporary games take the risk to offer such opportunities. NS2 is a rare gem in that regard.
<!--quoteo(post=1818423:date=Dec 22 2010, 06:12 PM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Dec 22 2010, 06:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1818423"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The nerf is fine. Now add in some skill based movement for marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> yes, like backward only bunnyhopp ;-) @ topic, maybe 60 % would be fine
<!--quoteo(post=1818357:date=Dec 22 2010, 08:29 AM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Dec 22 2010, 08:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1818357"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I feel the current back-pedal speed penalty to be fair. Compared to other popular FPS games, NS2 does not penalize accuracy while moving, or (gasp) force the player to crouch to obtain maximum accuracy.
One Marine is not suppose to rambo into alien territory guns blazing, and expect to back-pedal one's ass out alive. If anyone has played Starcraft (which most of you probably have), try to imagine Marines in SC being able to move at full speed while shooting. Even though Zerglings move much faster, they would not stand a chance against "back-pedalling" Marines, which they can barely catch (Edit: Stimmed Marines make short work of non-speed upgraded Zerglings when microed).
So I think the current back-pedalling penalty is the best compromise for the sake of balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Horrible example, in SC the terrain have other units they can use to compensate for higher tier Zerg units, in NS you ONLY have marines who will permanently be penalized for back walking, regardless of what unit he is facing.
How about full moving marines vs an ultralisk? You act like this game is ONLY marines vs skulks, have you forgotten about lerks, fades and the onos? Back peddling plays a massive part with them as well.
And I agree this penalty is to high, while I agree with it in general, it shouldn't be this slow.
I think the reduction was a little much, it does limit the marines greatly in movement. However, in NS1 marines had double jump and air control, which may have lead to it being not as noticeable. Everyone that keeps comparing NS1 to NS2 needs to stop, the games are going to play very differently now. You cant compare one marine to one skulk, and one marine to one fade as it was in NS1. Back in NS1 you would only have one flash fade usually, however looking at NS2 in a 6 man alien team you could potentially have 3 to 5 fades now, depending on gorge/lerk roles. As a result you can pretty much throw away the balance from NS1, especially with regards to fade. Also, skulks are a ambush class. If he comes hopping into a room with a marine, he should be relatively easy to kill. Currently, the model rotation is pretty jerky still, which makes tracking skulks a little difficult, so its hard to draw valid comparisons yet. I still want to see air control for both sides, and would love to see the NS1 bunny hop make a return, however that sounds unlikely.
<!--quoteo(post=1818563:date=Dec 22 2010, 07:03 PM:name=yourbonesakin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yourbonesakin @ Dec 22 2010, 07:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1818563"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In my opinion, you're all whining babies and need to train before you come back to the forums whining about how marine back pedal is nerfed. NS2 depends highly on skill. Not only should you get over it, you need to embrace it because you're going to see a lot more of skill dependency coming up. Revolutionary idea for an FPS in these times, I know, but I think if you guys understand NS2 is about limitless player growth instead of limitless avatar growth, you'll be a lot happier. There's no way to be perfect, but there's always more growth. Not many contemporary games take the risk to offer such opportunities. NS2 is a rare gem in that regard.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you make some good points, but at the same time this forum is for discussion and feedback...we're beta testers for a reason, and we paid for the right to speak our minds about how the gameplay feels. so i think you're going a little too far. every gaming forum is full of whining about game mechanics, NS2 isn't going to be any different. but i think you'll agree with me that by far the UWE forums are not filled with the "OMG I HATE ACTIVISION GO ###### YOURSELF" kind of posts, and for the most part are constructive and civil. there's no need to piss on that.
<!--quoteo(post=1818221:date=Dec 22 2010, 06:26 AM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Dec 22 2010, 06:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1818221"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just because it worked in ns1 doesnt mean it has to stay/work in ns2... ppl nowadays come from games like cod, tf2, battlefield, whatever - non of this games have such hugh backwardspeed reductions... Aliens feel very smooth, but marines suddently feel like they are heavy and slow but remain very vulnerable.(as skulks) Dunno why we need to copy everything from ns1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People coming from COD/TF2/Battlefield will most probably go back to these games when they notice that NS2 will have a learning curve a bit more advanced than learning to recognize enemies and getting to know gun spread patterns. Those that do stay usually adapt. I forgot how ARMA movement was, but I'm guessing it wasn't all about the shooting-while-backpedaling action. Not that I'm comparing NS2 to ARMA, but my point is that it's pointless to say "people can backpedal in TF2 so they should in NS2"
As for me, I know that it took me ages before noticing that marines didn't have a backpedal speed reduction. It's really a non-essential key once you get used to play without it. That being said, I'm still thinking it needs a tweak on the actual percentage.
Finally, you topping scoreboard kills does not make you the authority on the matter. Very far from it.
<!--quoteo(post=1818635:date=Dec 22 2010, 10:23 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Dec 22 2010, 10:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1818635"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you make some good points, but at the same time this forum is for discussion and feedback...we're beta testers for a reason, and we paid for the right to speak our minds about how the gameplay feels. so i think you're going a little too far. every gaming forum is full of whining about game mechanics, NS2 isn't going to be any different. but i think you'll agree with me that by far the UWE forums are not filled with the "OMG I HATE ACTIVISION GO ###### YOURSELF" kind of posts, and for the most part are constructive and civil. there's no need to piss on that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You know what? You're right, that was uncalled for. I apologize.
I think my summary of this thingy is that I don't want to be "OH EM GEE BACKPEDAL!!!11" every time I see a skulk coming at me. Running backwards being an option - fine. It being clearly the best response in 95% of the fights isn't fine.
I think its much better to have a reduced speed for backtracking. The marine should be strafing anyway.
However in ns1 you could couple the slower backtrack with a jump and this would allow much more manoeuvrability, Its this air control that is missing from ns2 that makes it feel so sluggish.
So many little things which I'm sure will be fixed up in the coming patches (this movement), the slight mouse lag (that irritates the crap out of me), the leap etc....
<!--quoteo(post=1818741:date=Dec 23 2010, 08:54 AM:name=Narcil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Narcil @ Dec 23 2010, 08:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1818741"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think its much better to have a reduced speed for backtracking. The marine should be strafing anyway.
However in ns1 you could couple the slower backtrack with a jump and this would allow much more manoeuvrability, Its this air control that is missing from ns2 that makes it feel so sluggish.
So many little things which I'm sure will be fixed up in the coming patches (this movement), the slight mouse lag (that irritates the crap out of me), the leap etc....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The air control and strafe speed are the exact issues here. Thank you for re-iterating though. The problem with people who never played NS1 or never understood some of the advanced movement techniques is that they don't really understand what we are complaining about. I 100% agree that backward movement speed should be reduced, but as it stands now you are pretty much a sitting duck and there are no finesse moves equivalent to the old "dodging" mechanics.
There are finesse moves, well 1 anyway: run circles around the aliens.
...what? Don't look at me like that. It's all us marines have untill they up the backwards strafing speed to be the same as the normal strafing speed (Like it is in NS1). Toutching the backwards key at the moment is equivalent of typing /kill. And i've not yet gotten away by turning around and sprinting, sprint is way too slow for that. Yes you move as fast as a skulk but i don't have leap (sprintjump, plox?), nor blink, and lerks just shoot you.
Moving straight backwards though should stay at 40%. I booted up NS1 just to check that, it's just as slow in there. Also made me remember the ol' Zigzag strafing backwards through hallways trying to shoot the bhoppin skulks ^^
Strafing ( not back and strafe..just strafe ) is still effective, but the new backpedal speed leaves you horribly ineffective vs fades...shotgun or no, fade blink into yo face , yo see yo ass :P
Seriously , vs skulks its understandable but too much vs a fade...its not like he has to run to you to close the range *bamf* and hes there, and circle strafing doesnt work with him as the scythe has a wide area attack that includes the sides ( least it feels like that ).
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
<!--quoteo(post=1818832:date=Dec 24 2010, 08:25 AM:name=TSS)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TSS @ Dec 24 2010, 08:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1818832"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Toutching the backwards key at the moment is equivalent of typing /kill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thats overly dramatic.
marines aren't meant to be lone rambo's, move in a group and take turns at being at the front of the line, when you take damage swap out for someone with more health and let the commander medpack you.
basically you want 2-4 marines moving like they were in a firing squad, when you see something to shoot:the first 2 crouch down, and back 2 marines shoot over the top. now combine this with a combination of shotguns, flamers, grenade launchers AND commander med packing you, you are basically walking tank.
i played 3 games last night, and didn't even realise the backwards walk was slow until i read this thread.
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
<!--quoteo(post=1818884:date=Dec 24 2010, 10:39 AM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Dec 24 2010, 10:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1818884"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->vs a fade...its not like he has to run to you to close the range *bamf* and hes there,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
if that is the case, then you could have a really fast backwards speed and the fade would still get you. so against fade its a non issue.
<!--quoteo(post=1818123:date=Dec 21 2010, 09:35 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Dec 21 2010, 09:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1818123"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Reduced backward speed for marines (now 40% of max movement speed, like NS1)
I dont care if it was in NS1(dont remember this), IT FEELS LIKE IM GLUED TO THE GROUND.
EVERYTIME I ACCIDENTALLY PRESS THE BACK BUTTON ITS LIKE A SELFSTUN.
What do you guys think?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
100% agree. It is <u>horrible</u>. I didn't think the slow-moving gameplay could get any slower. To compensate, right now i'm just using my strafe keys. I never even touch the 'S' key anymore!
NS2 is not NS1 and it will never be NS1. The devs give the impression that they are brainlessly porting in constant values without giving it a second thought. But as long as it shuts up the "omg make ns1 + better graphics" people then its ok right.
<!--quoteo(post=1818124:date=Dec 21 2010, 09:40 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Dec 21 2010, 09:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1818124"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Start using the strafe keys and run when reloading. I never really touch the backwards key, its all moving forward while spinning with 180ies...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1818153:date=Dec 21 2010, 10:17 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 21 2010, 10:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1818153"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like the speed reduction, since it makes marines different from aliens. Marines are not aliens in a different skin. They should have different traits, and in this case I feel this hinderance to marines is a good balance change.
Remember, marines have RANGE. That is your 'buff'. You can (and should) be firing at aliens before they even reach you. So if they DO reach you, then you have to pay the price.
These same complaints came in NS1, and I said the same thing then. People need to adapt to the game, not make the game adapt to them. Would nospeed restriction make it easier to play marines? Sure. Is that necessarily a *good* thing? No. Marines need serious incentives to stay as a group, and this is just one of those incentives.
I really don't want this game to be a copy of other games where you can run full speed forwards and backwards.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is exactly how it worked in NS1 and it did go a long way to balancing out marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1818178:date=Dec 21 2010, 11:11 PM:name=kingmob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kingmob @ Dec 21 2010, 11:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1818178"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What he said.
When you get in a fight and they get in close...strafe If they nick you too much...run peal out of there towards the nearest teammate, armory, or turret and who knows health and ammo might even rain from the sky. You may even still get the kill. Because you are a marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
Not really. Its just a marine nerf vs skulks. Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought that the point of a marine vs. skulk encounter was for the marine to take on the skulk headon vs. the skulk trying to ambush the marine. It just seems like a nerf in the wrong direction (e.g. skulks already beat marines in a 1v1 encounter). The better solution isn't to gimp marine movement, but to increase the skulk speed. As numerous people have pointed out, making backwards movement slower is awkward and not standard in fps games.
Also, NS2 != NS1. I get all the warm and fuzzy nostalgic feelings about NS1 on these forums, but there were serious flaws that made the mod a fun, but limited FPS/RTS. UWE should make the game they wanted in NS2, not a NS1 clone with better graphics.
If anything this encourages more teamwork which is very good...
That said, its WAY too much... 40% or whatever its atm is bad. I would say start at 70-80%, then lower/raise it from there.
<img src="http://i52.tinypic.com/2luqmiv.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
The problem with keeping strafing speed when going backwards... is that you shouldn't be keeping strafe speed when going forwards either, because that would make your strafe+forward speed higher than your regular forward or strafe speed by a factor of sqrt(2). (Pythagoras.) That doesn't really make sense.
In addition, with strafing+backpedaling your direction would instead be skewed (not 45 degrees backwards and to the right/left, but instead tan-1(40/100)=~22deg). This is a problem. (Unless of course that is the goal.)
Thus the directions should be set at 45 degrees relative to one another (with 8 total directions, corresponding to keys pressed), with set movespeeds in either of these directions; rather than set movespeeds in the 4 cardinal directions, with addition of vectors in the intermediate directions.
Above based on the assumption that strafe speed = forward speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sign me up for this solution. Thanks.
Nah rather have it overall reduced, including backwards, or only for marines with flamethrowers. But definatly not for shotgun users...
The problem is that when marines unlock their flamethrowers, it's most likely that they win the match. But at the beginning when marines have smg and shotguns, they're getting owned. I have to say that I'm getting used to going left/right now, but sometimes up close it's still a discomfit.
ns/ns2 isnt a normal fps. moot point. i think the problem most of you are having is that they stupidly left in normal backspeed and you think its supposed to be that way, backpeddling dm style.. sorry but thats not how its supposed to be.
The problem is that when marines unlock their flamethrowers, it's most likely that they win the match. But at the beginning when marines have smg and shotguns, they're getting owned.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thats mostly due to the lag. on decent servers decent marines still hold their own.
you fail to see the point that ns isnt a "normal" or "standard" fps. marines shouldnt be fighting skulks 1 on 1. the game is designed to give the advantage to marines in numbers. thats why:
skulk > marine (usually) 1 on 1
fade > marine (98% of the time) 1 on 1
onos > marine (99.999999999999999999999999999999%)
the only alien class a marine should be able to handle on their on is the gorge and maybe lerk (and that has to be one bad lerk). Gorge isnt even a "battle" class. they were traditionally a support class. the "better solution" is to not run off alone. right now because of the splotchy hitreg a skulk has a better than average chance of going into a room and killing a marine with teamates. but as the betas get further up that isnt the case so much as it used to be.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought that the point of a marine vs. skulk encounter was for the marine to take on the skulk headon vs. the skulk trying to ambush the marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes. youre wrong. it should be MARINES taking on skulk(s) headon + support from commander/mac.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The better solution isn't to gimp marine movement, but to increase the skulk speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
just..... wow. yes, make skulks even faster, which would accelerate the leap and make skulks even better while keeping in the dm movement which encouraged marines to run off by themselves anyway. i thought you people didnt like ns combat..
In any case, letting a ranged class move and attack simultaneously when facing a melee opponent enormously and hilariously increases ranged combat efficiency. Anyone who doesn't understand this concept need to look up "kiting". Anyone who knows what kiting is and disagrees with me is a retard. If the ranged attacker has a higher speed than the melee fighter, the ranged attacker wins no matter the health or DPS of either fighter and by default.
This is an obvious balance pitfall Unknown Worlds Entertainment has just decided to brute force into oblivion. They could have tried some finesse technique. Maybe slowly decreasing the backpedal speed over several patches. They could have altered the skulk in some convoluted backwards attempt to fix marines. Instead, they went with the most effective route of squashing this instantly with a little bit of over kill so they never have to think about this again.
Since Unknown Worlds Entertainment is not Activision-Blizzard, they do not have the same unique luxuries/resources (time, money, employees, experience) afforded to the best balance team in existence. They are an indie team developing their own engine and attempting to define a genre. They need to take the easy route because they can't waste anything. They can't do finesse.
Unknown Worlds Entertainment made the decision which took everything into account, the right decision. As Charlie said when the Beta was released, he said they had been obsessed with solving problems perfectly instead of just rolling through with what <b>works</b>. The alpha was long and barely any progress was made. In that same post, Charlie said things would change. Now UWE is making the right decisions considering their limitations, making some real visible progress on the technical, artwork, and gameplay sides of things. In my eyes, UWE is making good on that promise.
Does that mean not everything will be perfect for everyone? Yeah. Does it mean NS2 actually ships? Yeah.
Who cares if marine backpedal isn't perfect if NS2 doesn't ship? If UWE has to sacrifice a little bit from everything to make sure everything gets at least something. This is one of those imperfections.
In my opinion, you're all whining babies and need to train before you come back to the forums whining about how marine back pedal is nerfed. NS2 depends highly on skill. Not only should you get over it, you need to embrace it because you're going to see a lot more of skill dependency coming up. Revolutionary idea for an FPS in these times, I know, but I think if you guys understand NS2 is about limitless player growth instead of limitless avatar growth, you'll be a lot happier. There's no way to be perfect, but there's always more growth. Not many contemporary games take the risk to offer such opportunities. NS2 is a rare gem in that regard.
yes, like backward only bunnyhopp ;-)
@ topic, maybe 60 % would be fine
One Marine is not suppose to rambo into alien territory guns blazing, and expect to back-pedal one's ass out alive. If anyone has played Starcraft (which most of you probably have), try to imagine Marines in SC being able to move at full speed while shooting. Even though Zerglings move much faster, they would not stand a chance against "back-pedalling" Marines, which they can barely catch (Edit: Stimmed Marines make short work of non-speed upgraded Zerglings when microed).
So I think the current back-pedalling penalty is the best compromise for the sake of balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Horrible example, in SC the terrain have other units they can use to compensate for higher tier Zerg units, in NS you ONLY have marines who will permanently be penalized for back walking, regardless of what unit he is facing.
How about full moving marines vs an ultralisk? You act like this game is ONLY marines vs skulks, have you forgotten about lerks, fades and the onos? Back peddling plays a massive part with them as well.
And I agree this penalty is to high, while I agree with it in general, it shouldn't be this slow.
you make some good points, but at the same time this forum is for discussion and feedback...we're beta testers for a reason, and we paid for the right to speak our minds about how the gameplay feels. so i think you're going a little too far. every gaming forum is full of whining about game mechanics, NS2 isn't going to be any different. but i think you'll agree with me that by far the UWE forums are not filled with the "OMG I HATE ACTIVISION GO ###### YOURSELF" kind of posts, and for the most part are constructive and civil. there's no need to piss on that.
I agree that 60% is a good number for it.
People coming from COD/TF2/Battlefield will most probably go back to these games when they notice that NS2 will have a learning curve a bit more advanced than learning to recognize enemies and getting to know gun spread patterns. Those that do stay usually adapt.
I forgot how ARMA movement was, but I'm guessing it wasn't all about the shooting-while-backpedaling action. Not that I'm comparing NS2 to ARMA, but my point is that it's pointless to say "people can backpedal in TF2 so they should in NS2"
As for me, I know that it took me ages before noticing that marines didn't have a backpedal speed reduction. It's really a non-essential key once you get used to play without it.
That being said, I'm still thinking it needs a tweak on the actual percentage.
Finally, you topping scoreboard kills does not make you the authority on the matter. Very far from it.
it gives the marines 2 choices:
1. hold your ground and shoot
2. turn around and run away
none of this running backwards at full speed while shooting, its mental.
You know what? You're right, that was uncalled for. I apologize.
lol np, everyone rages on the internet from time to time :3
However in ns1 you could couple the slower backtrack with a jump and this would allow much more manoeuvrability, Its this air control that is missing from ns2 that makes it feel so sluggish.
So many little things which I'm sure will be fixed up in the coming patches (this movement), the slight mouse lag (that irritates the crap out of me), the leap etc....
However in ns1 you could couple the slower backtrack with a jump and this would allow much more manoeuvrability, Its this air control that is missing from ns2 that makes it feel so sluggish.
So many little things which I'm sure will be fixed up in the coming patches (this movement), the slight mouse lag (that irritates the crap out of me), the leap etc....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The air control and strafe speed are the exact issues here. Thank you for re-iterating though. The problem with people who never played NS1 or never understood some of the advanced movement techniques is that they don't really understand what we are complaining about. I 100% agree that backward movement speed should be reduced, but as it stands now you are pretty much a sitting duck and there are no finesse moves equivalent to the old "dodging" mechanics.
...what? Don't look at me like that. It's all us marines have untill they up the backwards strafing speed to be the same as the normal strafing speed (Like it is in NS1). Toutching the backwards key at the moment is equivalent of typing /kill. And i've not yet gotten away by turning around and sprinting, sprint is way too slow for that. Yes you move as fast as a skulk but i don't have leap (sprintjump, plox?), nor blink, and lerks just shoot you.
Moving straight backwards though should stay at 40%. I booted up NS1 just to check that, it's just as slow in there. Also made me remember the ol' Zigzag strafing backwards through hallways trying to shoot the bhoppin skulks ^^
Seriously , vs skulks its understandable but too much vs a fade...its not like he has to run to you to close the range *bamf* and hes there, and circle strafing doesnt work with him as the scythe has a wide area attack that includes the sides ( least it feels like that ).
thats overly dramatic.
marines aren't meant to be lone rambo's, move in a group and take turns at being at the front of the line, when you take damage swap out for someone with more health and let the commander medpack you.
basically you want 2-4 marines moving like they were in a firing squad, when you see something to shoot:the first 2 crouch down, and back 2 marines shoot over the top. now combine this with a combination of shotguns, flamers, grenade launchers AND commander med packing you, you are basically walking tank.
i played 3 games last night, and didn't even realise the backwards walk was slow until i read this thread.
if that is the case, then you could have a really fast backwards speed and the fade would still get you. so against fade its a non issue.
I dont care if it was in NS1(dont remember this), IT FEELS LIKE IM GLUED TO THE GROUND.
EVERYTIME I ACCIDENTALLY PRESS THE BACK BUTTON ITS LIKE A SELFSTUN.
What do you guys think?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
100% agree. It is <u>horrible</u>. I didn't think the slow-moving gameplay could get any slower. To compensate, right now i'm just using my strafe keys. I never even touch the 'S' key anymore!
NS2 is not NS1 and it will never be NS1. The devs give the impression that they are brainlessly porting in constant values without giving it a second thought. But as long as it shuts up the "omg make ns1 + better graphics" people then its ok right.
<!--quoteo(post=1818153:date=Dec 21 2010, 10:17 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 21 2010, 10:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1818153"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like the speed reduction, since it makes marines different from aliens. Marines are not aliens in a different skin. They should have different traits, and in this case I feel this hinderance to marines is a good balance change.
Remember, marines have RANGE. That is your 'buff'. You can (and should) be firing at aliens before they even reach you. So if they DO reach you, then you have to pay the price.
These same complaints came in NS1, and I said the same thing then. People need to adapt to the game, not make the game adapt to them. Would nospeed restriction make it easier to play marines? Sure. Is that necessarily a *good* thing? No. Marines need serious incentives to stay as a group, and this is just one of those incentives.
I really don't want this game to be a copy of other games where you can run full speed forwards and backwards.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1818174:date=Dec 21 2010, 11:01 PM:name=Revi.uk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Revi.uk @ Dec 21 2010, 11:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1818174"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Simple answer : don't walk backwards.
This is exactly how it worked in NS1 and it did go a long way to balancing out marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1818178:date=Dec 21 2010, 11:11 PM:name=kingmob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kingmob @ Dec 21 2010, 11:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1818178"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What he said.
When you get in a fight and they get in close...strafe
If they nick you too much...run
peal out of there towards the nearest teammate, armory, or turret
and who knows health and ammo might even rain from the sky.
You may even still get the kill.
Because you are a marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
signed