yea, complain now, but add flamethrowers plus 100 backspeed back the way it was. at least now theres a chance to kill them. the backspeed is fine the way it is now.
<!--quoteo(post=1818221:date=Dec 21 2010, 10:26 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Dec 21 2010, 10:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1818221"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just because it worked in ns1 doesnt mean it has to stay/work in ns2... ppl nowadays come from games like cod, tf2, battlefield, whatever - non of this games have such hugh backwardspeed reductions... Aliens feel very smooth, but marines suddently feel like they are heavy and slow but remain very vulnerable.(as skulks) Dunno why we need to copy everything from ns1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
maybe cause it works in ns2? so ill use your argument then:
all because it works in cod, tf2, battlefield, whatever - doesnt mean itll work in ns2.
ns isnt the above games, and it shouldnt play like them either.
I think when you have to turn your back on a skulk to run away it is a good thing. Makes you have to rely on your team mates . The thing I love most about NS2 is the team aspect So if it makes you work together as more of a team, it's a good thing.
Mobility from double back jump, simple double jump from higher ledge, feinting strafe or simply faster game speed was enough to add some unpredictability to the movement in NS1. Sprint is not even comparable it is mere means to travel faster with small risk of getting ambushed.
I'm not gonna argue whether if backmovent restriction is a good thing or not comparing / saying it works in NS1 and it should work in NS2 is bull######, but I'm really frustrated that UWE keeps restricting movement.
If excellent invidual asymmetric movement systems, deep strategic games with real people not some random pubbers was not your thing in NS1 why did you even play? If it was why is it that you want good stuff removed or simplified to the point of no return.
As a skulk it can be really annoying to chase around a marine backstepping at full speed while shooting you. With the change, marines are forced to strafe away and thus not be able to shoot as easily. I think the change will be fine when movement animations become smoother. That'll balance things out.
I'm inclined to agree that the back pedal speed should be bumped up to ~60%, it just feels too slow. Why bother having a move backwards button when it glues you to the floor?
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
i didn't test it yet, but:
it worked in NS1, this is NS2, so it should work roughly the same. I won't comment about the actual percentage it should be, but if they say that its the same as in NS1 then they probably know best. And as people say, don't walk backward. And that CoD/battlefield argument makes no sense, can you wallclimb/blink/fly there? no. Should it be removed because of that (the player might not understand that movement)? no
<!--quoteo(post=1818231:date=Dec 22 2010, 05:43 AM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Dec 22 2010, 05:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1818231"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... in most of the games i mentioned but well...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the point you are failing to see that the other guy was trying to say was that NS is a range vs Melee and the other games are range vs range.
In simple terms Gun > Knife - therefore to balance it out further, along with nimble aliens, backward speed must be far lower than range vs range games, where walking backwards means nothing to how much damage you take from the enemy. In range vs melee backward speed of the ranged team is key to how much damage they take from the melee team.
Slow backwards speed is a simple gameplay mechanic to balance out the teams.
That being said, i feel that 40% is too much and 50-60% would reduce complaints alot more.
I didn't played NS1 so i can't really compare to it, but I think this is one of the things that a lot of players (and new players) will be frustrated about. It's not that common that a movement direction is reduced in speed, and so the normal FPS player will get into NS2 and say "wtf?". In my opinion, it really fits the game somehow, gives it a unique feeling of movement and control. But i would also say that 40% is a little bit to much on my opinion. I would suggest to make it around 50-75%. Not more not less.
NS1 had a smart system where you could strafe in two ways or do dodge jumps (also backwards) that distracted your aim for a second. That's basically three options you could use and combine very fluently depending on the situation.
If backpedaling is quick, it easily becomes too dominant of a solution - ridiculously easy to perform and extremely effective against any target you see coming, especially considering how little dodging options the present skulks have. If the backpedaling has some variation that allows it to coexist with whatever movement patterns there are, I'm fine with it. However, I definitely don't want to have the backpedaling as the Single Right Thing To Do whenever I'm shooting a skulk or trying to increase the distance between me and the target.
IMO, the current slow back pedal speed feels like an artificial hinderance, which is both a lazy solution to game balance and an annoyance factor for player experience.
<!--quoteo(post=1818320:date=Dec 22 2010, 11:26 AM:name=Asraniel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Asraniel @ Dec 22 2010, 11:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1818320"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->go play ns1 which has been tested for years and tell me that its unbalanced<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> +1
I think this whole backward speed fuss is a matter of tastes and just something you need to get used to.
I felt the same way back in NS1 when they removed bunnyhopping and reduced the speed when backing up. Of course you feel limited not being able to manoeuvre as fast. But come on, surviving 3 skulk hit squads alone by just dancing around. The balances needed to be made.
On a foot note, I haven't tested NS2 just yet so don't know how this really compares to NS1.
Got the gorgemas deal but missing a monitor for the time being. :)
<!--quoteo(post=1818326:date=Dec 22 2010, 12:43 PM:name=PsiWarp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsiWarp @ Dec 22 2010, 12:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1818326"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->IMO, the current slow back pedal speed feels like an artificial hinderance, which is both a lazy solution to game balance and an annoyance factor for player experience.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Allowing backpedaling as the general response and balancing the game around it would be a lazy solution in my books. Disabling backpedaling creates opening for other responses, which have potential for a lot more variation and depth.
i see a bunch of people talking about what it feels like to play the game, versus a few people talking about the abstract benefits of relative movement percentage.
<!--quoteo(post=1818329:date=Dec 22 2010, 04:56 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Dec 22 2010, 04:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1818329"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Allowing backpedaling as the general response and balancing the game around it would be a lazy solution in my books. Disabling backpedaling creates opening for other responses, which have potential for a lot more variation and depth.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's true that slow back pedal does promote a skillful approach to movement, but regardless it is still an unforgiving challenge enforced on players. It's like... you want to get good, you don't press that button which does nothing but limit you.
<!--quoteo(post=1818325:date=Dec 22 2010, 11:42 AM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Dec 22 2010, 11:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1818325"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i think the biggest problem is the back button slows down your strafing. fix that and it'll be much easier to deal with.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This.
Back-pedalling should should be slower than moving forwards, I know it's not RL, but there is a RL justification - no one runs backwards. Forcing the marine to strafe, dodge or turn and run instead are all good things. It stops marines just running in, and forces them to think "hmm is it a good idea to move forward to that position".
It's a bit of an issue for me at the moment because my machine isn't very good and aiming at skulks is hard enough without trying to adjust to the stuttery-strafing as well. Perhaps 40% is a bit too much but it should definitely be <b>significantly</b> less than forward speed.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited December 2010
I feel the current back-pedal speed penalty to be fair. Compared to other popular FPS games, NS2 does not penalize accuracy while moving, or (gasp) force the player to crouch to obtain maximum accuracy.
One Marine is not suppose to rambo into alien territory guns blazing, and expect to back-pedal one's ass out alive. If anyone has played Starcraft (which most of you probably have), try to imagine Marines in SC being able to move at full speed while shooting. Even though Zerglings move much faster, they would not stand a chance against "back-pedalling" Marines, which they can barely catch (Edit: Stimmed Marines make short work of non-speed upgraded Zerglings when microed).
So I think the current back-pedalling penalty is the best compromise for the sake of balance.
<!--quoteo(post=1818342:date=Dec 22 2010, 01:42 PM:name=PsiWarp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsiWarp @ Dec 22 2010, 01:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1818342"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's true that slow back pedal does promote a skillful approach to movement, but regardless it is still an unforgiving challenge enforced on players. It's like... you want to get good, you don't press that button which does nothing but limit you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know how it's considered to be an unforgiving challenge. You get 20 chances each and every game and the vast majority of those aren't anything game changing. It's not like fading or commanding where you're instantly put into a high pressure role.
I do agree it's weird and unintuitive to have movement keys that have no function, but I don't think it's worth sacrificing details from the movement options in a type of game that assumably heavily relies on combat movement and positioning.
Maybe there's some value that satisfies both needs, but I think there's also a risk of signaling people they're doing the right thing by backpedaling while there might be some far better options avaible. I think removing the strafe slowdown does a decent job in making it more intuitive while still not messing up anything else.
How about something like this? <img src="http://i52.tinypic.com/2luqmiv.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
The problem with keeping strafing speed when going backwards... is that you shouldn't be keeping strafe speed when going forwards either, because that would make your strafe+forward speed higher than your regular forward or strafe speed by a factor of sqrt(2). (Pythagoras.) That doesn't really make sense. In addition, with strafing+backpedaling your direction would instead be skewed (not 45 degrees backwards and to the right/left, but instead tan-1(40/100)=~22deg). This is a problem. (Unless of course that is the goal.) Thus the directions should be set at 45 degrees relative to one another (with 8 total directions, corresponding to keys pressed), with set movespeeds in either of these directions; rather than set movespeeds in the 4 cardinal directions, with addition of vectors in the intermediate directions.
Above based on the assumption that strafe speed = forward speed.
<!--quoteo(post=1818170:date=Dec 21 2010, 10:50 PM:name=MiniH0wie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MiniH0wie @ Dec 21 2010, 10:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1818170"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like the idea of reduced backspeed but only 40% of max speed is way too much in my opinion. I would say 60% might be better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 for 60%.
i only really had a problem with it when i was chasing a marine as a skulk. a backpeddling marine shouldn't be able to keep distance on a a skulk.
but the 40% is too much, now it feels crippled. let's try 60%
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like the idea of reduced backspeed but only 40% of max speed is way too much in my opinion. I would say 60% might be better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
60% makes sense to me. I know the 40% is like NS1 but this is not NS1. There are a lot of new game play elements in the game. And also so far the maps seem way more close quarters then the original NS1 maps. Especially the hall ways, seem much more confined. A Marine doesn't have a lot of room to move around and needs to be able to back pedal a little faster then he currently can.
Comments
maybe cause it works in ns2? so ill use your argument then:
all because it works in cod, tf2, battlefield, whatever - doesnt mean itll work in ns2.
ns isnt the above games, and it shouldnt play like them either.
Makes you have to rely on your team mates . The thing I love most about NS2 is the team aspect
So if it makes you work together as more of a team, it's a good thing.
I'm not gonna argue whether if backmovent restriction is a good thing or not comparing / saying it works in NS1 and it should work in NS2 is bull######, but I'm really frustrated that UWE keeps restricting movement.
If excellent invidual asymmetric movement systems, deep strategic games with real people not some random pubbers was not your thing in NS1 why did you even play? If it was why is it that you want good stuff removed or simplified to the point of no return.
it worked in NS1, this is NS2, so it should work roughly the same. I won't comment about the actual percentage it should be, but if they say that its the same as in NS1 then they probably know best. And as people say, don't walk backward. And that CoD/battlefield argument makes no sense, can you wallclimb/blink/fly there? no. Should it be removed because of that (the player might not understand that movement)? no
I think the point you are failing to see that the other guy was trying to say was that NS is a range vs Melee and the other games are range vs range.
In simple terms Gun > Knife - therefore to balance it out further, along with nimble aliens, backward speed must be far lower than range vs range games, where walking backwards means nothing to how much damage you take from the enemy. In range vs melee backward speed of the ranged team is key to how much damage they take from the melee team.
Slow backwards speed is a simple gameplay mechanic to balance out the teams.
That being said, i feel that 40% is too much and 50-60% would reduce complaints alot more.
And I also have to feeling the guys that say it's good like in ns1 etc are always playing alliens??
You know, perhaps it's a good idea to only have slow backpedaling when the marine has a flamethrower, but definatly not with the smg or shotgun!!
In my opinion, it really fits the game somehow, gives it a unique feeling of movement and control. But i would also say that 40% is a little bit to much on my opinion. I would suggest to make it around 50-75%. Not more not less.
If backpedaling is quick, it easily becomes too dominant of a solution - ridiculously easy to perform and extremely effective against any target you see coming, especially considering how little dodging options the present skulks have. If the backpedaling has some variation that allows it to coexist with whatever movement patterns there are, I'm fine with it. However, I definitely don't want to have the backpedaling as the Single Right Thing To Do whenever I'm shooting a skulk or trying to increase the distance between me and the target.
+1
I felt the same way back in NS1 when they removed bunnyhopping and reduced the speed when backing up. Of course you feel limited not being able to manoeuvre as fast. But come on, surviving 3 skulk hit squads alone by just dancing around. The balances needed to be made.
On a foot note, I haven't tested NS2 just yet so don't know how this really compares to NS1.
Got the gorgemas deal but missing a monitor for the time being. :)
Allowing backpedaling as the general response and balancing the game around it would be a lazy solution in my books. Disabling backpedaling creates opening for other responses, which have potential for a lot more variation and depth.
Reduce back peddling by 10 - 20%, then hit the marine hard when they have more powerful weapons for balance. Flame Thrower, Grenade Launcher...
It's true that slow back pedal does promote a skillful approach to movement, but regardless it is still an unforgiving challenge enforced on players. It's like... you want to get good, you don't press that button which does nothing but limit you.
This.
Back-pedalling should should be slower than moving forwards, I know it's not RL, but there is a RL justification - no one runs backwards. Forcing the marine to strafe, dodge or turn and run instead are all good things. It stops marines just running in, and forces them to think "hmm is it a good idea to move forward to that position".
It's a bit of an issue for me at the moment because my machine isn't very good and aiming at skulks is hard enough without trying to adjust to the stuttery-strafing as well. Perhaps 40% is a bit too much but it should definitely be <b>significantly</b> less than forward speed.
One Marine is not suppose to rambo into alien territory guns blazing, and expect to back-pedal one's ass out alive. If anyone has played Starcraft (which most of you probably have), try to imagine Marines in SC being able to move at full speed while shooting. Even though Zerglings move much faster, they would not stand a chance against "back-pedalling" Marines, which they can barely catch (Edit: Stimmed Marines make short work of non-speed upgraded Zerglings when microed).
So I think the current back-pedalling penalty is the best compromise for the sake of balance.
I don't know how it's considered to be an unforgiving challenge. You get 20 chances each and every game and the vast majority of those aren't anything game changing. It's not like fading or commanding where you're instantly put into a high pressure role.
I do agree it's weird and unintuitive to have movement keys that have no function, but I don't think it's worth sacrificing details from the movement options in a type of game that assumably heavily relies on combat movement and positioning.
Maybe there's some value that satisfies both needs, but I think there's also a risk of signaling people they're doing the right thing by backpedaling while there might be some far better options avaible. I think removing the strafe slowdown does a decent job in making it more intuitive while still not messing up anything else.
<img src="http://i52.tinypic.com/2luqmiv.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
The problem with keeping strafing speed when going backwards... is that you shouldn't be keeping strafe speed when going forwards either, because that would make your strafe+forward speed higher than your regular forward or strafe speed by a factor of sqrt(2). (Pythagoras.) That doesn't really make sense.
In addition, with strafing+backpedaling your direction would instead be skewed (not 45 degrees backwards and to the right/left, but instead tan-1(40/100)=~22deg). This is a problem. (Unless of course that is the goal.)
Thus the directions should be set at 45 degrees relative to one another (with 8 total directions, corresponding to keys pressed), with set movespeeds in either of these directions; rather than set movespeeds in the 4 cardinal directions, with addition of vectors in the intermediate directions.
Above based on the assumption that strafe speed = forward speed.
+1 for 60%.
i only really had a problem with it when i was chasing a marine as a skulk. a backpeddling marine shouldn't be able to keep distance on a a skulk.
but the 40% is too much, now it feels crippled. let's try 60%
60% makes sense to me. I know the 40% is like NS1 but this is not NS1. There are a lot of new game play elements in the game. And also so far the maps seem way more close quarters then the original NS1 maps. Especially the hall ways, seem much more confined. A Marine doesn't have a lot of room to move around and needs to be able to back pedal a little faster then he currently can.