Building something from scratch does kinda suck yeah, it's a lot of work to debug any major undertaking in programming.
But once you HAVE done that, you can add new features as you please, of course they need debugging as well but generally the feature-time ratio improves once you get past the things most people don't think of as features, such as basic engine functionality.
Basically it takes a long time to get it working, but once it does, you can do a lot more with it.
Also UWE can use the engine for other games, a company with their own powerful engine is far better off than one which has to shell out repeatedly for licenses.
This is kinda why I don't get UWE's 'open development' philosophy, most people don't <i>get</i> what it's like to make games, because most people have never had anything to do with making games, so they complain about stuff they don't understand. It seems like it's a lot of really unnecessary hassle.
<!--quoteo(post=1803724:date=Oct 29 2010, 03:22 PM:name=dux)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dux @ Oct 29 2010, 03:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1803724"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Source from a mapping standpoint is a pain in the ass. Having to compile and having no realtime lighting view is a major downside. The only thing I like about source is it's radiosity and hammers brush tools.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like source, its entity logic system is amazing, and I don't find it hard to map with although compiling does make it a little time consuming.
But the NS2 editor is already pretty damn good, with a full set of features and more polish I think it will end up my favourite.
<!--quoteo(post=1803625:date=Oct 28 2010, 08:02 PM:name=######beard the Pirate)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (######beard the Pirate @ Oct 28 2010, 08:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1803625"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Source Engine is ######.
Years of refinement and Valve still haven't been able to release an FPS on it that doesn't feel clunky and play generally bad. I got HL2, L4D2, Garry's Mod, all that stuff on steam. Never really was able to get into it because of how badly the engine handles the whole runny-pointy-shooty thing compared to something like the Quake 3 engine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's Valve's fault that they don't know what your personal, subjective experiences are on their game engine and that they aren't catering it to your liking?
That's odd because the entire reason I like source for games is because it's way more responsive than most engines, in terms of slick controls it's easily right up with quake 3, it just doesn't have you flying through the air as much.
But all the controls respond perfectly, unlike a lot of engines.
Source has been played on for years , with many different kinds of mods. NS2 is still mostly unplayable because running multiplayer games on the spark engine has never been done before. It's hard to quantify the cost of a delay (not like we have no other games to play) but running NS2 on a completely new engine certainly has some huge opportunity cost.
In the end it won't matter as much if it allows everything UWE was looking to add to NS2. But we aren't there quite yet , and it may require tons of work. Just consider wallclimbing skulks that fall off or get stuck into props all the time , that doesn't look promising.
Games in development never do look promising, if you ever saw a tech demo and thought 'wow that looks meh' consider that the tech demo itself probably took months to make, and that work would be largely wasted on the final game.
A tech demo is what you get when you tell people 'make something with what we have that looks pretty while we work on the actual game' and they spend a month doing that only to chuck it out after the presentation.
You simply don't see games in this stage of development unless you're actually a developer, so yeah, it's full of bugs, nothing works properly, and it runs like crap. Because all games do that until you spend ages fixing them so they don't.
threads like these need to be locked immediately. one simple argument and i can put it as simply as this.
these people are arguing:
they pre-paid years in advance for a car that isnt even finished yet (still in design stages). the auto company let them sit inside a pre-production test model because of their appreciation for helping the company. the company informed them way ahead of time that the car they were gonna get to test was a pre-production and would in no way be a finished product. then said customer was pissed because the car was missing seats, windows, steering wheel, engine, and mud flaps.
complaining about low fps, hitchy gameplay, unbalanced weapons, not being to connect to "x" server, etc etc etc in a knowingly buggy ALPHA version of a game... and when this is pointed out you have the nerve to call "fanboy".
is this not easy to understand how frustrating that makes the forums to read? no one lied to you about what the alpha was going to be. you have your black armor like was promised, you have your early alpha access like was promised. you cant blame UWE for your own ignorance/stupidiy and expect the entire forum to just ignore post after post of this (especially after each update). now if UWE were offering it as a beta, and then said "wait wait our bad this is alpha".. THEN youd have a reason to be pissed. guess what, alphas dont run well, they arent stages for complaining about balance issues. alpha is for getting the basic core down, BETA is when you tighten the game up. I think a huge problem is that UWE is trying add too much stuff right now and not getting the basics down yet.
It's funny because I was saying the same thing before: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=110473" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=110473</a>
I got a bit of a laugh when I saw the Tweet:
"Having big problems with the patch. Sorry! If you have any hints about the CPU/network issues: charlie@unknownworlds.com We're on it."
I mean if they are having issues where they are now resorting to public ideas to hit and miss the issues? Maybe they should just Open Source the engine >_<
<!--quoteo(post=1803794:date=Oct 29 2010, 05:04 PM:name=Rothgar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rothgar @ Oct 29 2010, 05:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1803794"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe they should just Open Source the engine >_<<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm pretty sure the OP suggested staying with Source because the networking and controls have been ironed out and are fluid and responsive, which a lot of engines fail to do.
There's really no point in talking about this now, though, since the engine is so far in development. And making Spark open-source is just so ridiculous... They would essentially be giving up ownership and control over the engine they've poured over 2 years into. It's not going to happen, and there's no good reason why it should happen
DY357LXPlaying since day 1. Still can't Comm.EnglandJoin Date: 2002-10-27Member: 1651Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1803794:date=Oct 30 2010, 01:04 AM:name=Rothgar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rothgar @ Oct 30 2010, 01:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1803794"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's funny because I was saying the same thing before: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=110473" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=110473</a>
I got a bit of a laugh when I saw the Tweet:
"Having big problems with the patch. Sorry! If you have any hints about the CPU/network issues: charlie@unknownworlds.com We're on it."
I mean if they are having issues where they are now resorting to public ideas to hit and miss the issues? Maybe they should just Open Source the engine >_<<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I too thought that tweet was a bit odd. If they'd said "Submit your logs/error reports/crash dumps to <email address>" it would have been fine and acceptable. But saying "any hints" makes it sound like they've no clue, hit a brick wall and need someone to step in and clear the path for them.
Now don't get me wrong, I love NS1, I love reading what Flayra, Max and Cory are doing and I wish them all the best but every now and then I wish they'd found an alternative engine to use. An engine that's well documented and up-to-date in terms of dynamic lighting and all that other funky stuff people love. (I'm aware that such an engine probably doesn't exist. Not one that's accessible to small teams anyway.)
They've made their decision and I'm sure it'll serve them well given time. All we can do is sit back, wait for NS2 and assist where possible.
Demanding refunds and making stupid topics won't help. (I'm not referring to *this* topic, I think the Source Engine question is valid and is a question that's popped into my mind a few times too.)
Good luck Flayra + co, <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eP-v95g2RU8" target="_blank">good things come, to those who wait.</a> Beer anyone?
I'm sure someone already mentioned this, but the source engine can't do dynamic lighting. One of the big improvements of EP2 was that the flashlight finally casted shadows. Certainly you noticed how only your flashlight worked in Left 4 Dead? The engine has to compile all the lighting beforehand and that prevents us from doing cool stuff with lights.
<!--quoteo(post=1803626:date=Oct 28 2010, 06:05 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Oct 28 2010, 06:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1803626"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i mean serioulsy, you REALLY think source was playable in alpha? even the leaked beta was a goddamn mess.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Only if you count gameplay. Stability wise? No, it wasn't.
Graphically there's a lot of neat things being put on hold until the performance improves dramatically. There's no point making the game incredibly beautiful looking if the frame rate is so low at the moment.
The dynamic god rays will get put back in eventually!
Honestly, I'm stunned anyone thinks that source has better graphics than the spark engine. I thoroughly feel everything graphically that the spark engine does is vastly better. Textures don't feel plastic, and shadows feel more real. The processing of the multiple texture maps seems to me to be much better than that of source.
That aside, sure, source is a stable engine, but there are multiple reasons to create your own engine like UWE has decided to do. You get to code what you need, and not have extra "garbage" from the other engine. Plus with them using their own engine they have control over things like the graphics and physics engines, which you don't have ability to control in source, you kinda just "work with what you've got"
I commend them for diverging on a path rarely taken anymore.
While i dont think source engine was correct to use for NS2 for the reasons already mentioned, i dont beleive a small <5 person team should be making their own engine.
These issues with controls feeling realtime, multiplayer and framerate optimisations could take YEARS to fix.
The gameplay can be worked on now, but not a single peice of gameplay matters if all the engine kinks arnt fixed, and fast. Your simply not going to have the engine working smoothly without alot of time investment.
The more time that goes by and i see that gameplay improves substantially and the engine barely moves the more i believe that UWE should have just licensed an engine that had all the features they needed.
We waited 3 months for improvements in 152 to fix server CPU and multiplayer hit registration/lag and in my opinion those still arnt fixed. Small steps forward, nothing significant.
I guess we'll see in a year if this engine is any closer to being what they need to actually move to beta (or playtest alpha gameplay on).
And by that time, it'll be out of date. Thus why 3-5 people dev teams don't make a engine at the same time as their first blockbuster game title and not go bust.
Well i hate the Source engine, when i played L4D and "L4D2"(i going sick when i hear that name), the Hitboxes and netcode is the worst i ever seen, and that s why i say ###### on the Source Engine, it is worse then Halflife 1 and Valve don't care about that. I also like Spark Engine, and the thinks i seen were nice, if i would have 20fps more i could test the hitdetection and co. But for a alpha its fine. (Ok a Server costs 800MB Ram and the shadow Disappear when you move away is dumb but i hope that is getting fixed)
There's usually only a fine line between a brilliant move and a terrible decision.
There are a plenty of good reasons to go for their own engine. NS1 was pushing the HL1 to it's absolute limits already and it probably limited the creativiness of developers quite a bit. The commander mode is terrible by any RTS standards and so on. Going for a new engine definitely allows them to create freely and possibly take NS to a completely new level.
Then again they still have to prove they've made the right decision. An incomplete engine isn't worth half the source engine for the gameplay. Also, the longer it takes, the harder it becomes to meet the expectations.
As someone who's had the pleasure of working with the Source Engine since it was released, I always get a good laugh out of these threads. Thanks guys.
<!--quoteo(post=1804035:date=Nov 1 2010, 01:42 PM:name=WatchMaker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WatchMaker @ Nov 1 2010, 01:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1804035"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As someone who's had the pleasure of working with the Source Engine since it was released, I always get a good laugh out of these threads. Thanks guys.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know what source you've been working with but it's definitely <b>not</b> the source everyone else has been using. -Source has the most convoluted and needlessly complex method for getting meshes and textures in game. -Hammers interface has changed little since GoldSrc and is still convoluted mess. -There was actually a massive lack of documentation until the valve developer community was created.
I don't know much on the coding side but for artists it's one of the worst engines to work with... Not counting engines that don't actually have SDKs.
<!--quoteo(post=1804038:date=Nov 1 2010, 01:05 PM:name=jamin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jamin @ Nov 1 2010, 01:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1804038"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know what source you've been working with but it's definitely <b>not</b> the source everyone else has been using. -Source has the most convoluted and needlessly complex method for getting meshes and textures in game. -Hammers interface has changed little since GoldSrc and is still convoluted mess. -There was actually a massive lack of documentation until the valve developer community was created.
I don't know much on the coding side but for artists it's one of the worst engines to work with... Not counting engines that don't actually have SDKs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hammer I have no problem with, and the texturing system is quite easy, but the model compile tools are certainly very outdated.
Obviously source was not the right choice - I think we can all agree on that.
But I think it is simply too early to say whether or not building a new engine was a good idea or not. I think it is fair to say it is ambitious for such a small team, but thats not a reason to count them out already.
Long-term, UWE would like to make Spark the ultimate engine for mods, and they would like to license spark to other game developers.
NS2 isn't even close to completion, yet everyone is judging it like its a beta test. If you've played the leaked HL2 alpha you'd know it was a mess as well. No game alpha will play very well at all.
From the clients perspective, Source is quite good. It's sharp, responsive and minimalist. Using Source in an actual project, though? It's a nightmare. The SDK is very outdated, the documentation is still lacking, getting textures and models into your project is such a chore compared to other engines and the source code is messy and un-intuitive. So I can understand why UWE ditched it.
That being said, Spark is still under heavy development. Save your opinions for the final build, eh? :)
Source engine is pretty good imo in terms of graphics. TF2 and L4D2 on maxed out settings looks pretty sweet to me. Agree wtih comments on the movement though - it works for games like L4D and TF where the game is a bit more "comical" so moving a bit retarded is fine, but feels rubbish for other types of FPS games. CS:Source is horrible compared to the original CS, and much of that is to do with clunky movement.
Although with L4D and TF2 being such great games overall, especially with the Special Infected in L4D being somewhat similar to some of the Kharaa in NS (Hunter = Skulk, Onos = Tank, Spitter = obscure Lerk gas), you do wonder what the barriers were, as movement of Kharaa shouldn't have been a problem (and you have perfect sentries/teleporters/etc in TF2). Though UWE would know most about this so I'll just take their word for it.
The comment I've had from a "neutral" (used to play NS1, has no interest in NS2) gamer after showing him the graphics of the NS2 Alpha is that it looks like a 2004/05 game. Which I personally wouldn't disagree with. To be frank, it looks like ###### (the background etc), although some of the alien structures do look pretty nice at the moment. But that's fully understandable as I'm sure they've barely begun to look at adding polish to the graphics, and give Spark a few years of development by UWE and I'm sure it'll look phenomenal.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited November 2010
Spark is still lacking some serious new technology that will obviously be added in later patches. It will become shiny and with the complete dynamic light and drop in hotloading it is an engine for the future.
Odd thing is, since we're talking about movement here. I still find the old engine's movement much smoother compared to some of the newer engines. HL1 rules in that department...
<!--quoteo(post=1804085:date=Nov 1 2010, 04:14 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Nov 1 2010, 04:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1804085"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Spark is still lacking some serious new technology that will obviously be added in later patches. It will become shiny and with the complete dynamic light and drop in hotloading it is an engine for the future.
Odd thing is, since we're talking about movement here. I still find the old engine's movement much smoother compared to some of the newer engines. HL1 rules in that department...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I know Spark is super flexible in terms of gameplay programming... but is the base technology really going to be that easy? I kind of doubt it.
<!--quoteo(post=1804094:date=Nov 1 2010, 06:04 PM:name=Skyforger2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skyforger2 @ Nov 1 2010, 06:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1804094"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They already did it ! <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMMiKKv7g7s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMMiKKv7g7s</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's in Max's engine, aka the very beginnings of the Spark engine.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Isn't that a bsp tree map from Source running in Max's engine (to be more precise <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/tongue.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />)
I think what is important with developing their own engine is their connections to their roots. They said it will be easily mod-able and this would allow smaller teams to have a resource to develop their own games if they wanted, just like they did.
I've dumped money in Constie, purchased ZoS (even though I never play it), bought the SE of NS2, and would do so again/more if I could because I enjoy what they do and want to support it any little way I can.
Comments
But once you HAVE done that, you can add new features as you please, of course they need debugging as well but generally the feature-time ratio improves once you get past the things most people don't think of as features, such as basic engine functionality.
Basically it takes a long time to get it working, but once it does, you can do a lot more with it.
Also UWE can use the engine for other games, a company with their own powerful engine is far better off than one which has to shell out repeatedly for licenses.
This is kinda why I don't get UWE's 'open development' philosophy, most people don't <i>get</i> what it's like to make games, because most people have never had anything to do with making games, so they complain about stuff they don't understand. It seems like it's a lot of really unnecessary hassle.
<!--quoteo(post=1803724:date=Oct 29 2010, 03:22 PM:name=dux)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dux @ Oct 29 2010, 03:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1803724"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Source from a mapping standpoint is a pain in the ass. Having to compile and having no realtime lighting view is a major downside. The only thing I like about source is it's radiosity and hammers brush tools.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like source, its entity logic system is amazing, and I don't find it hard to map with although compiling does make it a little time consuming.
But the NS2 editor is already pretty damn good, with a full set of features and more polish I think it will end up my favourite.
Years of refinement and Valve still haven't been able to release an FPS on it that doesn't feel clunky and play generally bad. I got HL2, L4D2, Garry's Mod, all that stuff on steam. Never really was able to get into it because of how badly the engine handles the whole runny-pointy-shooty thing compared to something like the Quake 3 engine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's Valve's fault that they don't know what your personal, subjective experiences are on their game engine and that they aren't catering it to your liking?
But all the controls respond perfectly, unlike a lot of engines.
In the end it won't matter as much if it allows everything UWE was looking to add to NS2. But we aren't there quite yet , and it may require tons of work. Just consider wallclimbing skulks that fall off or get stuck into props all the time , that doesn't look promising.
A tech demo is what you get when you tell people 'make something with what we have that looks pretty while we work on the actual game' and they spend a month doing that only to chuck it out after the presentation.
You simply don't see games in this stage of development unless you're actually a developer, so yeah, it's full of bugs, nothing works properly, and it runs like crap. Because all games do that until you spend ages fixing them so they don't.
these people are arguing:
they pre-paid years in advance for a car that isnt even finished yet (still in design stages). the auto company let them sit inside a pre-production test model because of their appreciation for helping the company. the company informed them way ahead of time that the car they were gonna get to test was a pre-production and would in no way be a finished product. then said customer was pissed because the car was missing seats, windows, steering wheel, engine, and mud flaps.
complaining about low fps, hitchy gameplay, unbalanced weapons, not being to connect to "x" server, etc etc etc in a knowingly buggy ALPHA version of a game... and when this is pointed out you have the nerve to call "fanboy".
is this not easy to understand how frustrating that makes the forums to read? no one lied to you about what the alpha was going to be. you have your black armor like was promised, you have your early alpha access like was promised. you cant blame UWE for your own ignorance/stupidiy and expect the entire forum to just ignore post after post of this (especially after each update). now if UWE were offering it as a beta, and then said "wait wait our bad this is alpha".. THEN youd have a reason to be pissed. guess what, alphas dont run well, they arent stages for complaining about balance issues. alpha is for getting the basic core down, BETA is when you tighten the game up. I think a huge problem is that UWE is trying add too much stuff right now and not getting the basics down yet.
I got a bit of a laugh when I saw the Tweet:
"Having big problems with the patch. Sorry! If you have any hints about the CPU/network issues: charlie@unknownworlds.com We're on it."
I mean if they are having issues where they are now resorting to public ideas to hit and miss the issues? Maybe they should just Open Source the engine >_<
Um......
no.
There's really no point in talking about this now, though, since the engine is so far in development. And making Spark open-source is just so ridiculous... They would essentially be giving up ownership and control over the engine they've poured over 2 years into. It's not going to happen, and there's no good reason why it should happen
I got a bit of a laugh when I saw the Tweet:
"Having big problems with the patch. Sorry! If you have any hints about the CPU/network issues: charlie@unknownworlds.com We're on it."
I mean if they are having issues where they are now resorting to public ideas to hit and miss the issues? Maybe they should just Open Source the engine >_<<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I too thought that tweet was a bit odd. If they'd said "Submit your logs/error reports/crash dumps to <email address>" it would have been fine and acceptable. But saying "any hints" makes it sound like they've no clue, hit a brick wall and need someone to step in and clear the path for them.
Now don't get me wrong, I love NS1, I love reading what Flayra, Max and Cory are doing and I wish them all the best but every now and then I wish they'd found an alternative engine to use. An engine that's well documented and up-to-date in terms of dynamic lighting and all that other funky stuff people love.
(I'm aware that such an engine probably doesn't exist. Not one that's accessible to small teams anyway.)
They've made their decision and I'm sure it'll serve them well given time. All we can do is sit back, wait for NS2 and assist where possible.
Demanding refunds and making stupid topics won't help.
(I'm not referring to *this* topic, I think the Source Engine question is valid and is a question that's popped into my mind a few times too.)
Good luck Flayra + co, <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eP-v95g2RU8" target="_blank">good things come, to those who wait.</a> Beer anyone?
<!--quoteo(post=1803626:date=Oct 28 2010, 06:05 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Oct 28 2010, 06:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1803626"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i mean serioulsy, you REALLY think source was playable in alpha? even the leaked beta was a goddamn mess.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Only if you count gameplay. Stability wise? No, it wasn't.
The dynamic god rays will get put back in eventually!
That aside, sure, source is a stable engine, but there are multiple reasons to create your own engine like UWE has decided to do. You get to code what you need, and not have extra "garbage" from the other engine. Plus with them using their own engine they have control over things like the graphics and physics engines, which you don't have ability to control in source, you kinda just "work with what you've got"
I commend them for diverging on a path rarely taken anymore.
These issues with controls feeling realtime, multiplayer and framerate optimisations could take YEARS to fix.
The gameplay can be worked on now, but not a single peice of gameplay matters if all the engine kinks arnt fixed, and fast. Your simply not going to have the engine working smoothly without alot of time investment.
The more time that goes by and i see that gameplay improves substantially and the engine barely moves the more i believe that UWE should have just licensed an engine that had all the features they needed.
We waited 3 months for improvements in 152 to fix server CPU and multiplayer hit registration/lag and in my opinion those still arnt fixed. Small steps forward, nothing significant.
I guess we'll see in a year if this engine is any closer to being what they need to actually move to beta (or playtest alpha gameplay on).
And by that time, it'll be out of date. Thus why 3-5 people dev teams don't make a engine at the same time as their first blockbuster game title and not go bust.
Good luck UWE
There are a plenty of good reasons to go for their own engine. NS1 was pushing the HL1 to it's absolute limits already and it probably limited the creativiness of developers quite a bit. The commander mode is terrible by any RTS standards and so on. Going for a new engine definitely allows them to create freely and possibly take NS to a completely new level.
Then again they still have to prove they've made the right decision. An incomplete engine isn't worth half the source engine for the gameplay. Also, the longer it takes, the harder it becomes to meet the expectations.
I don't know what source you've been working with but it's definitely <b>not</b> the source everyone else has been using.
-Source has the most convoluted and needlessly complex method for getting meshes and textures in game.
-Hammers interface has changed little since GoldSrc and is still convoluted mess.
-There was actually a massive lack of documentation until the valve developer community was created.
I don't know much on the coding side but for artists it's one of the worst engines to work with... Not counting engines that don't actually have SDKs.
-Source has the most convoluted and needlessly complex method for getting meshes and textures in game.
-Hammers interface has changed little since GoldSrc and is still convoluted mess.
-There was actually a massive lack of documentation until the valve developer community was created.
I don't know much on the coding side but for artists it's one of the worst engines to work with... Not counting engines that don't actually have SDKs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hammer I have no problem with, and the texturing system is quite easy, but the model compile tools are certainly very outdated.
But I think it is simply too early to say whether or not building a new engine was a good idea or not. I think it is fair to say it is ambitious for such a small team, but thats not a reason to count them out already.
Long-term, UWE would like to make Spark the ultimate engine for mods, and they would like to license spark to other game developers.
NS2 isn't even close to completion, yet everyone is judging it like its a beta test. If you've played the leaked HL2 alpha you'd know it was a mess as well. No game alpha will play very well at all.
That being said, Spark is still under heavy development. Save your opinions for the final build, eh? :)
Although with L4D and TF2 being such great games overall, especially with the Special Infected in L4D being somewhat similar to some of the Kharaa in NS (Hunter = Skulk, Onos = Tank, Spitter = obscure Lerk gas), you do wonder what the barriers were, as movement of Kharaa shouldn't have been a problem (and you have perfect sentries/teleporters/etc in TF2). Though UWE would know most about this so I'll just take their word for it.
The comment I've had from a "neutral" (used to play NS1, has no interest in NS2) gamer after showing him the graphics of the NS2 Alpha is that it looks like a 2004/05 game. Which I personally wouldn't disagree with. To be frank, it looks like ###### (the background etc), although some of the alien structures do look pretty nice at the moment. But that's fully understandable as I'm sure they've barely begun to look at adding polish to the graphics, and give Spark a few years of development by UWE and I'm sure it'll look phenomenal.
Odd thing is, since we're talking about movement here. I still find the old engine's movement much smoother compared to some of the newer engines. HL1 rules in that department...
Odd thing is, since we're talking about movement here. I still find the old engine's movement much smoother compared to some of the newer engines. HL1 rules in that department...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know Spark is super flexible in terms of gameplay programming... but is the base technology really going to be that easy?
I kind of doubt it.
They already did it !
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMMiKKv7g7s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMMiKKv7g7s</a>
if that can be implemented without too much performance overhead its going to be sweeet
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMMiKKv7g7s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMMiKKv7g7s</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's in Max's engine, aka the very beginnings of the Spark engine.
I've dumped money in Constie, purchased ZoS (even though I never play it), bought the SE of NS2, and would do so again/more if I could because I enjoy what they do and want to support it any little way I can.