<!--quoteo(post=1801942:date=Oct 18 2010, 04:49 PM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Oct 18 2010, 04:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1801942"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Heh i thought someone hacked it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If this turns into Valve's half life 2 hacker fiasco, I'm going to personally make gorge plushies for everyone.
Seriously though, it should be 'what we are currently working on tracker'. Not having a go about next release date but if anything it just infuriates the community. Like sticking a fishing rod on an onos with a frontiersman for bait.
<!--quoteo(post=1801972:date=Oct 18 2010, 09:31 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Oct 18 2010, 09:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1801972"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Progress tracker is waste of time..
Seriously though, it should be 'what we are currently working on tracker'. Not having a go about next release date but if anything it just infuriates the community. Like sticking a fishing rod on an onos with a frontiersman for bait.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the problem is a lot of times they are working on stuff which they don't even bother listing. I mean they said they were trying to optimize the occlusion stuff, but only mentioned this in a forum post. But in the same way, i imagine it would be annoying if everyday i had to log what i was working on so people could read about it on the progress board. So yes the progress tracker thing isn't telling the whole story, but in the same way it's a public, although incomplete, "todo" list (that apparently broke, which is flat out hilarious) that we can view so it's better then nothing :P
The tracker seems to be telling me a patch is going to hit pretty soon. No technical tasks... Gameplay tasks seem to be much quicker to run through generally. It seems many of them are basic bug fixing (in Lua with debugger) and a few feature setups and some systems back-ends.
I definitely get the sense the Charlie coding in Lua is a little more bare-bones to be molded through testing. Something like clay. Max and Co seems more like business. Hitting a specific target of performance and capabilities very cleanly. More engineered code.
It's nice to be able to get that sense just by looking at the progress tracker.
Instance static props - is this related to implementing DI or just a performance tweak?
<!--quoteo(post=1801987:date=Oct 19 2010, 03:43 PM:name=culprit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (culprit @ Oct 19 2010, 03:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1801987"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Instance static props - is this related to implementing DI or just a performance tweak?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Performance
<!--quoteo(post=1801972:date=Oct 18 2010, 09:31 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Oct 18 2010, 09:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1801972"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Progress tracker is waste of time..
Seriously though, it should be 'what we are currently working on tracker'. Not having a go about next release date but if anything it just infuriates the community. Like sticking a fishing rod on an onos with a frontiersman for bait.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I definitely have to disagree. Since they are going on two months with no patch, they need to have transparency about what they're doing. They don't have a concrete date for the next release but aren't going to push it out until they feel it's playable online.
<!--quoteo(post=1801998:date=Oct 19 2010, 11:48 AM:name=Mr_Charisma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr_Charisma @ Oct 19 2010, 11:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1801998"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They've already explained the lack of patches recently. Several times.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You think i'm complaining about lack of patches, i'm not and never have. The progress tracker is great and i'm enjoying watching things progress. The point is that why even put release markers on there if they constantly move around and are not met as deadlines. Just don't put them on because it frustrates the community. It is like teasing a dog with a piece of steak and then questioning why it ends up biting your hand.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You think i'm complaining about lack of patches, i'm not and never have. The progress tracker is great and i'm enjoying watching things progress. The point is that why even put release markers on there if they constantly move around and are not met as deadlines. Just don't put them on because it frustrates the community. It is like teasing a dog with a piece of steak and then questioning why it ends up biting your hand.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well I'm looking forward to when it comes out, I've even started to watch NS videos and might download the old NS and try and get that working. It really was before it's time and the 2nd might just seem not as revolutionary but thats not bad, alot of the NS features and gameplay mechanics are only just starting to get into mainstream online games nowadays!
<!--quoteo(post=1802007:date=Oct 19 2010, 01:52 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Oct 19 2010, 01:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1802007"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You think i'm complaining about lack of patches, i'm not and never have. The progress tracker is great and i'm enjoying watching things progress. The point is that why even put release markers on there if they constantly move around and are not met as deadlines. Just don't put them on because it frustrates the community. It is like teasing a dog with a piece of steak and then questioning why it ends up biting your hand.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think they've been doing this all development long in quite a few ways. Definitely something I'd like to see improved.
<!--quoteo(post=1802007:date=Oct 19 2010, 01:52 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Oct 19 2010, 01:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1802007"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You think i'm complaining about lack of patches, i'm not and never have. The progress tracker is great and i'm enjoying watching things progress. The point is that why even put release markers on there if they constantly move around and are not met as deadlines. Just don't put them on because it frustrates the community. It is like teasing a dog with a piece of steak and then questioning why it ends up biting your hand.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really like having the tracker to watch but I agree that it doesn't make sense with the 'next release' bar that just keeps moving down every time new tasks are completed. Heh at least now there is no next release bar :p
Think you are viewing this a bit too much like it's for your own comfort... but it's just that they made one way of their work transparent, it's not like they are using Pivotal Tracker for our sake. It's for their use and their use only, we're allowed to <i>peek</i> at it to be able to understand how they work but that should be it.
<!--quoteo(post=1802021:date=Oct 19 2010, 04:12 PM:name=Triggerman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Triggerman @ Oct 19 2010, 04:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1802021"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Think you are viewing this a bit too much like it's for your own comfort... but it's just that they made one way of their work transparent, it's not like they are using Pivotal Tracker for our sake. It's for their use and their use only, we're allowed to <i>peek</i> at it to be able to understand how they work but that should be it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think the situation is basically this:
1.) The only release date/deadline we know is Fall 2009. 2.) A lot of people preordered the game, which is pretty nice thing to do considering UWE has no previous track record on commercial games. 3.) Reveals are nice, but they've been pretty inconsistent and still rely a lot on concept art and such. 4.) The alpha hasn't been updated for 3 months soon, I think.
If possible, I'd like to have UWE communicating consistently on their progress and future aims, one way or the other. I know the industry is seriously messed up in general, everyone misses deadlines just like that and so on, but at least for me part of the reason to support indie development is that they can actually do things against the industry standards.
I don't know about the UWE working methods and such and they probably are working extremely hard already. Still, I think it would be good to have one consistent communication channel to the community. If pivotal tracker isn't meant for that, it might be a good idea to consider some other channel. If it's too time consuming or otherwise impossible, then so be it, I just hope it doesn't end up backfiring in the long run.
... And once again, I definitely don't want to offend UWE and I greatly appreciate the work they are doing. This is just my way of going through things and trying to see different viewpoints and options. They've got the best understanding of the situation, so I trust they are doing their best and making the right decisions.
True, they need to communicate better but I just don't think you should read too much into their Pivotal Tracker for said reasons. If we go on complaining about that then we'll end up not being able to see it all, which I think would be a damn shame.
It sounds like you guys want them to have more progress communication than what the tracker provides. That is understandable. It is just unfeasible. If they had the resources ($$$), they could hire someone to hang in the office and do blog posts on what is being worked on every few days. I know I would love to have this kind of info (or that job). But I don't think that would be beneficial to UWE as a company. The value of moderately better community communication is not worth redirecting resources from development.
TLDR- If you want the next patch sooner, complaining about the utility of the tracker just seems silly and counter-productive.
<!--quoteo(post=1802007:date=Oct 19 2010, 08:52 AM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Oct 19 2010, 08:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1802007"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You think i'm complaining about lack of patches, i'm not and never have. The progress tracker is great and i'm enjoying watching things progress. The point is that why even put release markers on there if they constantly move around and are not met as deadlines. Just don't put them on because it frustrates the community. It is like teasing a dog with a piece of steak and then questioning why it ends up biting your hand.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I won't disagree with you there. I think it's naïvete and inexperience on their part for the shifting release dates more than anything else. I have confidence that it will eventually come (I already waited for the big Dwarf Fortress update, and that took many, many months) since we keep seeing things getting done, but I'd rather have no end in sight instead of seeing the release point constantly pushed back.
Actually, I think I'd prefer the way <a href="http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html" target="_blank">Toady does it</a> where all tasks are listed, and he just marks each one green/in progress when he works on it so you can see how much he's done. Certainly not everything needs to be listed, but everything that needs to be done until the next patch would be awesome. That, combined with short daily updates what was done for the day (which Toady does on the main page), makes waiting a lot easier. Of course he's in a different situation since he relies off donations and is just one person working on his own schedule...
<!--quoteo(post=1802033:date=Oct 19 2010, 02:30 PM:name=WatchMaker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WatchMaker @ Oct 19 2010, 02:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1802033"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The community is "upset" because pivotal tracker moved the release date bars around?
Really?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think people are upset because they said they would deliver regular patches, then arbitrarily stopped communicating entirely about patch release states for several months and the Pivotal Tracker's bars have been pretty much all we have to go on.
Obviously it's an alpha and it's perfectly fine for things to take longer than expected, but lack of communication doesn't make anyone feel better about it.
Comments
If this turns into Valve's half life 2 hacker fiasco, I'm going to personally make gorge plushies for everyone.
xD
Seriously though, it should be 'what we are currently working on tracker'. Not having a go about next release date but if anything it just infuriates the community. Like sticking a fishing rod on an onos with a frontiersman for bait.
Seriously though, it should be 'what we are currently working on tracker'. Not having a go about next release date but if anything it just infuriates the community. Like sticking a fishing rod on an onos with a frontiersman for bait.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the problem is a lot of times they are working on stuff which they don't even bother listing. I mean they said they were trying to optimize the occlusion stuff, but only mentioned this in a forum post. But in the same way, i imagine it would be annoying if everyday i had to log what i was working on so people could read about it on the progress board. So yes the progress tracker thing isn't telling the whole story, but in the same way it's a public, although incomplete, "todo" list (that apparently broke, which is flat out hilarious) that we can view so it's better then nothing :P
Gameplay tasks seem to be much quicker to run through generally. It seems many of them are basic bug fixing (in Lua with debugger) and a few feature setups and some systems back-ends.
I definitely get the sense the Charlie coding in Lua is a little more bare-bones to be molded through testing. Something like clay. Max and Co seems more like business. Hitting a specific target of performance and capabilities very cleanly. More engineered code.
It's nice to be able to get that sense just by looking at the progress tracker.
Instance static props - is this related to implementing DI or just a performance tweak?
=D
Can't wait!
Seriously though, it should be 'what we are currently working on tracker'. Not having a go about next release date but if anything it just infuriates the community. Like sticking a fishing rod on an onos with a frontiersman for bait.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I definitely have to disagree. Since they are going on two months with no patch, they need to have transparency about what they're doing. They don't have a concrete date for the next release but aren't going to push it out until they feel it's playable online.
You think i'm complaining about lack of patches, i'm not and never have. The progress tracker is great and i'm enjoying watching things progress. The point is that why even put release markers on there if they constantly move around and are not met as deadlines. Just don't put them on because it frustrates the community. It is like teasing a dog with a piece of steak and then questioning why it ends up biting your hand.
Agreed.
I think they've been doing this all development long in quite a few ways. Definitely something I'd like to see improved.
<!--coloro:green--><span style="color:green"><!--/coloro--><b>Agreed</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I think the situation is basically this:
1.) The only release date/deadline we know is Fall 2009.
2.) A lot of people preordered the game, which is pretty nice thing to do considering UWE has no previous track record on commercial games.
3.) Reveals are nice, but they've been pretty inconsistent and still rely a lot on concept art and such.
4.) The alpha hasn't been updated for 3 months soon, I think.
If possible, I'd like to have UWE communicating consistently on their progress and future aims, one way or the other. I know the industry is seriously messed up in general, everyone misses deadlines just like that and so on, but at least for me part of the reason to support indie development is that they can actually do things against the industry standards.
I don't know about the UWE working methods and such and they probably are working extremely hard already. Still, I think it would be good to have one consistent communication channel to the community. If pivotal tracker isn't meant for that, it might be a good idea to consider some other channel. If it's too time consuming or otherwise impossible, then so be it, I just hope it doesn't end up backfiring in the long run.
... And once again, I definitely don't want to offend UWE and I greatly appreciate the work they are doing. This is just my way of going through things and trying to see different viewpoints and options. They've got the best understanding of the situation, so I trust they are doing their best and making the right decisions.
If we go on complaining about that then we'll end up not being able to see it all, which I think would be a damn shame.
TLDR- If you want the next patch sooner, complaining about the utility of the tracker just seems silly and counter-productive.
EDIT: basically Triggerman already said it.
Yeah, I won't disagree with you there. I think it's naïvete and inexperience on their part for the shifting release dates more than anything else. I have confidence that it will eventually come (I already waited for the big Dwarf Fortress update, and that took many, many months) since we keep seeing things getting done, but I'd rather have no end in sight instead of seeing the release point constantly pushed back.
Actually, I think I'd prefer the way <a href="http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html" target="_blank">Toady does it</a> where all tasks are listed, and he just marks each one green/in progress when he works on it so you can see how much he's done. Certainly not everything needs to be listed, but everything that needs to be done until the next patch would be awesome. That, combined with short daily updates what was done for the day (which Toady does on the main page), makes waiting a lot easier. Of course he's in a different situation since he relies off donations and is just one person working on his own schedule...
Really?
Really?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think people are upset because they said they would deliver regular patches, then arbitrarily stopped communicating entirely about patch release states for several months and the Pivotal Tracker's bars have been pretty much all we have to go on.
Obviously it's an alpha and it's perfectly fine for things to take longer than expected, but lack of communication doesn't make anyone feel better about it.