I'd appreciate a quality mappack and I don't care if there are some alternative models avaible, but otherwise DLC is a no go for me. I'd prefer the games to be created as a one entity, not as a huge mixture of more or less cosmetic additions that leave you guessing how the game is actually intented to work.
Extra content itself is fine of course, but I don't like them stirring up the original experience randomly. Fine tuning is great, but just adding weird game changing items without a bigger plan isn't usually that great.
Imagine a world where you didnt have to explain in minute detail a argument that everyone actually knows what you meant, but others seem to get great joy from arguing minutae.
You know very well what I mean by paid for DLC, as in after launch content, as in I bought the game and now theres more stuff for my game but I need to fork over more cash to access it.
... though after some thought I think its highly improbable that UWE can add DLC as a core ideal for NS 2 is moddability, how can you offer DLC for a game that is highly moddable, its like offering new maps for £££ but the map editor is freely available and communities are churning out high quality maps anyways.
I am nearly 40 I come from a time where even patches where rare affairs, you bought the game and that was it unless a expansion came out months later... these days patches are so common they are nearly as anticipated as the actual game, and DLC is prepared before the game goes retail... I am the type of gamer that will pull out a olde game (like Freelancer, or Diablo 2.... even Dungeon Keeper 2) for a replay years after release, what the chances the DLC is still waiting there on servers for you to download ? Imagine for a sec if Lord of Destruction (Diablo 2 expansion) was a DLC, and after a few years the server was pulled down and you could only play Diablo 2 without the LoD exp, or its improvements... its a far fetched example, but I prefer to forsee the ###### flying ...before it hits my face.
I aint anti UWE guys ( I did pre-order, mostly because I had so much fun with NS 1 I figured the guys deserved it), just dont like the way gaming is going these days... more costs to customers, more product placement and advert related DLC (buy Dr. Pepper and you too can get an item for BC 2), item selling (WoW mount $25)... argh, luckily there is Indie.
<!--quoteo(post=1768022:date=Apr 20 2010, 02:39 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Apr 20 2010, 02:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1768022"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not really. A extreme minority would purchase the SE for the black armor alone. Most did it for early alpha access and because they wanted to give extra money to UWE, possibly as a 'thank you' for NS1. DLC isn't bad at all and it's a great way for developers to continue to add content to their game. The best example I can think of is what Bioware is doing with their DLC for Dragon Age. I think most of us would like every planned feature for NS2 to be in the game, or patched into the game, without added cost. A year after release if the devs decide to add more content I don't see any problem charging for it especially when you consider that NS2 sells for only $20 which is very near the cost of some game's DLC.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> DA is single player. Cosmetic and gameplay changes to an SP is personal, but for multiplayer games like NS2, paid DLC is the absolute bane of a community. It does nothing more than split the playerbase (into the financial haves and have-nots) while lining developers' pockets from (in many cases) content that should have been in the original game. I am deeply saddened by the willingness of the average gamer today to accept DLC (or worse pay full-game price for DLC a la L4D2). It's the classically loathable foot-in-the-door policy recycled by old salesmen trying to pitch it to a new industry full of fresh naive saps. Enjoyed playing our game online? well now for a low price of $9.99 you can continue to enjoy it for a few more months until we release the next update and split the community again! Act fast and receive a brand new paint job for free! (and on that matter, I stand by whatever small minority refuses to buy a game that hands out gimmicky DLC like black armour without providing an option to turn it off).
In this order, here is how the line has become finer: Sequels Expansions DLC Paid monthly subscriptions Sanction DLCs today, and how long before the monthly subscription becomes common practice?
<!--quoteo(post=1768040:date=Apr 20 2010, 05:04 PM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Apr 20 2010, 05:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1768040"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->DA is single player. Cosmetic and gameplay changes to an SP is personal, but for multiplayer games like NS2, paid DLC is the absolute bane of a community.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
DA is single player but I was referring to the content (as in additional missions, an extra character, etc) that is available through the DLC. This same principle can be applied to NS2. Try to not blow it out of proportion by using words like "financial haves and have not's." If a player cannot afford a $10 - $20 addition every year and a half or so then they probably can't afford the computer and monthly internet required to run NS2. Additionally, the scenario you described above has never happened in my gaming experience. Companies are unable to produce meaningful content that players will pay for 'every few months.' Take Battlefield 2142 for example. They released one 'booster pack' called 'Northern Strike' for $10 and it had <i>a lot</i> of content which reinvigorated 2142 for me and my friends and the community loved it. For those that didn't buy Northern Strike they just didn't join the Northern Strike servers. The vanilla 2142 community was alive and well.
Who knows what additional features the dev's may want to add into NS2 a year or two after NS2's release but whatever it is, if anything, they should be compensated for their time and effort. Calling it an expansion or DLC doesn't matter to me but the idea that companies should release brand new content, never intended for initial release, free to the community is a little silly. The idea that they shouldn't try to create new content, outside of an entirely new game, because some people will be upset they're being charged for it is even more silly.
Two years from now if UWE has released a significant content update, like new weapons/gamemodes/upgrades/etc, for free consider it a gift and not an entitlement.
<!--quoteo(post=1767924:date=Apr 19 2010, 06:59 PM:name=Cereal_KillR)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cereal_KillR @ Apr 19 2010, 06:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1767924"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is genius enough to gain major facepalm recognition. Hopefully I don't need to explain what's wrong with your suggestion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, every time I see the red wolf avatar I know to brace myself for a face palm. If he keeps it up, I am going to be getting bruises soon.
I paid for the more expensive bundle and I'm not annoyed about the engine test, but when the combat mode is made for this, I think the people who got the bigger bundle should have access to it only for at least 2-3 weeks before the others get it to be honest otherwise I'd like a refund of the difference tbh
<!--quoteo(post=1767883:date=Apr 20 2010, 05:04 AM:name=Skyforger2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skyforger2 @ Apr 20 2010, 05:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1767883"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No !!! i don't want them to get Alpha i paid extra money to be special !!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1768054:date=Apr 20 2010, 05:04 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Apr 20 2010, 05:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1768054"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->DA is single player but I was referring to the content (as in additional missions, an extra character, etc) that is available through the DLC.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If the original pont wasn't clear enough, let me reiterate: a <b>single-player[]/b] game is one in which you enjoy [b]in solitude</b> - whatever extra adornments you have or have not are for your own personal enjoyment. An exclusively <b>multiplayer</b> game by contrast necessitates a <b>community</b> which means you must "share" your haves and have-nots with those who share them back. The impact of DLC on a SP game is inconsequential, while releasing it on an MP game is akin to chucking a fragmentation grenade into your community bunker - you end up with pieces of your community all over the place, some with the DLC, some without, and many wishing it didn't exist.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Take Battlefield 2142 for example.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, let's take Battlefield, but if you're only citing 2142, then you've missed a lot - it's happened time and again before. BF1942 saw Secret Weapons and BF2, Euro forces, Special forces, and Armoured Fury. The result? Not but a few months after the hype had died the battlefield was strewn with half-populated casualties. The playerbase existed, but where had they gone? Utterly fragmented with servers switching to SF or EU or AF or some combination thereof and others routeinly dropping half their connected clients after a switch to an expansion map. If for such a large community it could have that effect, I don't want to see what it would do for NS2.
No one is saying brand new content is unwelcome, release well-done and substantial patches and you'll be among the few that do in this industry. But if you need to make your bread and butter with paid DLC then realize it comes at the cost of your community and there are only so many things we'd take a grenade for.
I don't want to pay to do that kind of work for UWE. They are smart to expose alpha to as few people as possible. The people that are exposed already gave up 40 bucks for a game they're not sure will ever finish, so they have a bit of rose colored glasses syndrome already.
It would be a really bad move to distribute alpha to all purchasers. Alpha is not a finished game.
<!--quoteo(post=1768071:date=Apr 20 2010, 10:05 PM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Apr 20 2010, 10:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1768071"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->BF2, Euro forces, Special forces, and Armoured Fury. The result? Not but a few months after the hype had died the battlefield was strewn with half-populated casualties. The playerbase existed, but where had they gone? Utterly fragmented with servers switching to SF or EU or AF or some combination thereof and others routeinly dropping half their connected clients after a switch to an expansion map. If for such a large community it could have that effect, I don't want to see what it would do for NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We must have had vastly different experiences. I played BF2 competitively past the release of all expansion/booster packs except the one. I was never once dropped from a pub server due to not having a map (literally, not once) and I found that most servers with these packs only played those packs. The playerbase survived all booster packs just fine and in 2009 DICE, or rather EA as it was likely their decision, made them free for everyone. Rainbow Six: Rogue Spear, the game I played for many years and which consumed my early life, had three 'expansion' packs released. The community survived fine and the added maps were welcome.
I don't disagree that excessive paid content can cause a rift in a community as you have a point there, at least in theory. I do disagree with the idea that additional paid content is some kind of monster coming from the shadows to destroy the communities and playerbases of the games they're released for, which is how you described the paid content for BF2. In my years of gaming I've never experienced any noticable negative side effects from DLC or expansion packs.
Either way, the point is moot. I think it's very doubtful that UWE will release paid content within the first year and a half of NS2's life. Maybe after two years we may hear some talks about it but I'm sure UWE will make any decision with the community in mind. The last thing any game developer wants to do is destroy their game, save the SWG developers. That was their pastime.
<!--quoteo(post=1768066:date=Apr 20 2010, 08:06 PM:name=BiGBearKeith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BiGBearKeith @ Apr 20 2010, 08:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1768066"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I paid for the more expensive bundle and I'm not annoyed about the engine test, but when the combat mode is made for this, I think the people who got the bigger bundle should have access to it only for at least 2-3 weeks before the others get it to be honest otherwise I'd like a refund of the difference tbh<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Last time i heard, the devs weren't making a CO mode and instead expecting the community to roll their own. Seeing as how people are already making deathmatch modes for the engine test, we can expect at least 5 different forms of community made CO :)
Or you can do what the DawnofWar people did and make it so that you can still play with the people who have the expansions in multiplayer. You even get the added units! You just can't use the extra races yourself.
There, no more fragmented community! Really though I don't think it will be a problem for NS2. I mean, DLC/expansions? Really?
In terms of alpha and stuff for SE for the pre-orders, I think they'll restrict the real alpha to Special Edition. Partly as incentive, partly so that only the more dedicated (and thus perhaps tester minded) players will see the rougher versions, thus not fouling the pool, and thus maintaining that it's still IN DEVELOPMENT.
Probably the Engine Test was opened up for finding more basic bugs faster and to generate publicity. No harm in that, imo.
<!--quoteo(post=1768224:date=Apr 21 2010, 07:46 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Apr 21 2010, 07:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1768224"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or you can do what the DawnofWar people did and make it so that you can still play with the people who have the expansions in multiplayer. You even get the added units! You just can't use the extra races yourself.
There, no more fragmented community! Really though I don't think it will be a problem for NS2. I mean, DLC/expansions? Really?
In terms of alpha and stuff for SE for the pre-orders, I think they'll restrict the real alpha to Special Edition. Partly as incentive, partly so that only the more dedicated (and thus perhaps tester minded) players will see the rougher versions, thus not fouling the pool, and thus maintaining that it's still IN DEVELOPMENT.
Probably the Engine Test was opened up for finding more basic bugs faster and to generate publicity. No harm in that, imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Extra races? For NS? What are you smoking? It works for Dawn of War because it creates an entire new side. To add things like new weapons and upgrades cripples teams. New maps mean those without the DLC get kicked on a map change they haven't paid for. If you think they are going to start adding in new races... then damn, you really are crazy.
<!--quoteo(post=1768343:date=Apr 22 2010, 05:37 PM:name=Lemming Jesus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lemming Jesus @ Apr 22 2010, 05:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1768343"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Extra races? For NS? What are you smoking? It works for Dawn of War because it creates an entire new side. To add things like new weapons and upgrades cripples teams. New maps mean those without the DLC get kicked on a map change they haven't paid for. If you think they are going to start adding in new races... then damn, you really are crazy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
SOMEONE IS NOT PAYING ATTENTION!!!!!
Main Point: Let all multi people play together. DoW did this, even when adding whole new races. How? Let everyone have new maps and new units, just restrict which races! Never once did I mention adding a new race to NS2.
The only realistic DLC are weapons/upgrades for NS2. And they have to fit a niche and not be strictly better than the originals (see most TF2 unlocks). Yes, maps can fracture the community, which is WHY YOU WOULDN'T MAKE THEM EXCLUSIVE!!!
<!--quoteo(post=1768353:date=Apr 23 2010, 02:36 AM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Apr 23 2010, 02:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1768353"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only realistic DLC are weapons/upgrades for NS2. And they have to fit a niche and not be strictly better than the originals (see most TF2 unlocks). Yes, maps can fracture the community, which is WHY YOU WOULDN'T MAKE THEM EXCLUSIVE!!!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think weapons and upgrades are that viable in a team based game either. At least in original NS every weapon had a purpose and necessity for the most of the game. It's not nice if your gameplay plan fails because someone can't access the whole tech tree and do his job at a crucial moment.
In TF2 it worked because it doesn't have much of a team dependency culture, apart from having a medic in your team. Meanwhile in NS there are moments when you want your teammates to do something specific. At those moments I want them to be playing the exact same game as I do, otherwise it's going to be a mess and I don't know if I can rely on my teammates one bit.
<!--quoteo(post=1768010:date=Apr 20 2010, 06:10 PM:name=Cyanide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cyanide @ Apr 20 2010, 06:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1768010"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I disagree with this statement in it's entirely for a game like NS2. It's entirely possible to add an expansion pack to NS2 using DLC. And improving upon NS2 that way would be a great way to continue to fund UWE, and still give us all content we want.
Not all DLC is bad, infact, DLC is probably one of the best things to hit gaming in a long time as long as it's not abused. Yeah, i think the MW2 map pack was abuse. But I can name a bunch of paid and non paid DLC that have been just fantastic for gaming over the last 2 years.
If UWE ever does decide to add paid dlc, which honestly, it's doubtful anyway, because it's very hard to unify paid DLC models and DLC requirements into MP games that arent regulated through a mutual system such as iwnet.
Instead it looks like we'll have cosmetic dlc? Soundtracks, etc. If UWE took the time to reskin weapons to match the black marine model and changed 2 bucks for it, they'd make great profit, and anyone who whines about how it's not worth money and it should be free, you obviously don't realize it takes time(which equates to money) to make these things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The worst part about dlc, which we already know won't effect ns2 luckily, is that developers don't put in mapping tools or allow modding. I'm just ranting, but rebellion really pissed me off by not allowing custom maps and trying to scam avp players out of more money for something that should be free (more maps).
If they really want to put in dlc, why not make graphical "high definition" upgrade dlc at some point that upgrades the current textures, tesselation, effects etc. to whatever the standard is at the time of the dlc release. NS2 will come out with graphics that are competitive right now, but a year or two from now will be outdated, so when they're done releasing everything we paid 40 bucks for, they can get some more money out of the game, improving its quality without effecting balance.
I don't know anything about graphics design, maybe doing this is too difficult or cost prohibitive, but it seems like a really good way to put in dlc that doesn't negatively effect gameplay like maps or weapons.
I still say BIG NO !!! I paid extra to be special !! and with engine test open to usual pre orders kinda ###### things as when alpha comes out usual edition just gonna copy files to ns2 folder from alpha to their engine test.
<!--quoteo(post=1768353:date=Apr 23 2010, 02:36 AM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Apr 23 2010, 02:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1768353"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only realistic DLC are weapons/upgrades for NS2. And they have to fit a niche and not be strictly better than the originals (see most TF2 unlocks). Yes, maps can fracture the community, which is WHY YOU WOULDN'T MAKE THEM EXCLUSIVE!!!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is also an good idea but imho the only "good" dlc for MP games is DLC that's strictly "visual" stuff that doesn't impact the gameplay or fracture the community.
But you still haven't explained how your DoW example would work with an paid NS2 map...
I still would love for UWE to add paid DLC in a non inversive way, like they did with the black marine armor. Selling custom skin packs, maybe even custom animations for small money. Your weapon idea could work too but needs alot more work for balancing, it still could work... for example people could buy something like an alternate LMG with slower RoF but higher bullet damage and an different skin.
I really would love that because this kind of DLC for an MP game doesn't put anybody at a disadvantage that didn't pay but at the same time gives people the option to throw some more money at UWE.
As many have said, DLC for purely aesthetic is typically the best way to go for MP games.
League Of Legends has 2 ways to unlock heroes: Influence points built up by playing, and Riot Points which you buy with real money. However, Runes, a slight perk that gives a slight edge (+0.16 damage) is only buyable using Influence Points, and skins (purely aesthetics) are only purchasable via Riot Points. Also, Riot Points are the only way to buy boosters, like a limited period of 2x IP gain.
However, _if_ NS2 wants to do weapon DLCs, they must ensure that DLC and non-DLC players can still play together and for the DLC players to not have an obscene advantage. Sure they may have more variety, just like DoW players get more races, but that doesn't mean the new stuff is strictly better than the old stuff.
<!--quoteo(post=1768353:date=Apr 22 2010, 07:36 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Apr 22 2010, 07:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1768353"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->SOMEONE IS NOT PAYING ATTENTION!!!!!
Main Point: Let all multi people play together. DoW did this, even when adding whole new races. How? Let everyone have new maps and new units, just restrict which races! Never once did I mention adding a new race to NS2.
The only realistic DLC are weapons/upgrades for NS2. And they have to fit a niche and not be strictly better than the originals (see most TF2 unlocks). Yes, maps can fracture the community, which is WHY YOU WOULDN'T MAKE THEM EXCLUSIVE!!!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
SOMEONE IS NOT PAYING ATTENTION!!!!!
Main Point: How the hell do you restrict races if they don't add them? Everyone gets Marines and Aliens. You want to restrict races but not add them? What the hell are you talking about? If everyone gets everything free then there's no problem. What the hell are you even trying to argue? Do you even know? We're talking about paid DLC because that's the only time it causes problems.
<!--quoteo(post=1768437:date=Apr 23 2010, 06:59 PM:name=Skyforger2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skyforger2 @ Apr 23 2010, 06:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1768437"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I still say BIG NO !!! I paid extra to be special !! and with engine test open to usual pre orders kinda ###### things as when alpha comes out usual edition just gonna copy files to ns2 folder from alpha to their engine test.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That probably wont work. I don't know what checks ns2 has but im sure it has checks to see if you use the dll's from the engine test or the alpha. And only copying the lua's files wont work either since you dont have the updated .dll files.
Why would you risk pissing off 95% of your pre-orderes (those that got the SE). To appeal to the 5% the just ordered the normal version, knowing full well that they would only get Beta access and no alpha. These 5% are not being wronged in anyway and simply just need to suck it up and wait for the Beta.
However, within that 95% they're will be people who would get pissed off based on principle, because their exclusive $40 alpha access means squat. I don't as I wanted to give UWE something extra just for NS1, but the agreement was clear and I would understand other getting pissed or feeling cheated.
<!--quoteo(post=1767855:date=Apr 20 2010, 04:43 AM:name=Razagal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Razagal @ Apr 20 2010, 04:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1767855"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->UWE advertised for the SE with exclusive alpha access, so this not debatable. Common sense, really.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This.
Comments
Extra content itself is fine of course, but I don't like them stirring up the original experience randomly. Fine tuning is great, but just adding weird game changing items without a bigger plan isn't usually that great.
You know very well what I mean by paid for DLC, as in after launch content, as in I bought the game and now theres more stuff for my game but I need to fork over more cash to access it.
... though after some thought I think its highly improbable that UWE can add DLC as a core ideal for NS 2 is moddability, how can you offer DLC for a game that is highly moddable, its like offering new maps for £££ but the map editor is freely available and communities are churning out high quality maps anyways.
I am nearly 40 I come from a time where even patches where rare affairs, you bought the game and that was it unless a expansion came out months later... these days patches are so common they are nearly as anticipated as the actual game, and DLC is prepared before the game goes retail... I am the type of gamer that will pull out a olde game (like Freelancer, or Diablo 2.... even Dungeon Keeper 2) for a replay years after release, what the chances the DLC is still waiting there on servers for you to download ?
Imagine for a sec if Lord of Destruction (Diablo 2 expansion) was a DLC, and after a few years the server was pulled down and you could only play Diablo 2 without the LoD exp, or its improvements... its a far fetched example, but I prefer to forsee the ###### flying ...before it hits my face.
I aint anti UWE guys ( I did pre-order, mostly because I had so much fun with NS 1 I figured the guys deserved it), just dont like the way gaming is going these days... more costs to customers, more product placement and advert related DLC (buy Dr. Pepper and you too can get an item for BC 2), item selling (WoW mount $25)... argh, luckily there is Indie.
DLC isn't bad at all and it's a great way for developers to continue to add content to their game. The best example I can think of is what Bioware is doing with their DLC for Dragon Age. I think most of us would like every planned feature for NS2 to be in the game, or patched into the game, without added cost. A year after release if the devs decide to add more content I don't see any problem charging for it especially when you consider that NS2 sells for only $20 which is very near the cost of some game's DLC.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
DA is single player. Cosmetic and gameplay changes to an SP is personal, but for multiplayer games like NS2, paid DLC is the absolute bane of a community. It does nothing more than split the playerbase (into the financial haves and have-nots) while lining developers' pockets from (in many cases) content that should have been in the original game. I am deeply saddened by the willingness of the average gamer today to accept DLC (or worse pay full-game price for DLC a la L4D2). It's the classically loathable foot-in-the-door policy recycled by old salesmen trying to pitch it to a new industry full of fresh naive saps. Enjoyed playing our game online? well now for a low price of $9.99 you can continue to enjoy it for a few more months until we release the next update and split the community again! Act fast and receive a brand new paint job for free! (and on that matter, I stand by whatever small minority refuses to buy a game that hands out gimmicky DLC like black armour without providing an option to turn it off).
In this order, here is how the line has become finer:
Sequels
Expansions
DLC
Paid monthly subscriptions
Sanction DLCs today, and how long before the monthly subscription becomes common practice?
DA is single player but I was referring to the content (as in additional missions, an extra character, etc) that is available through the DLC. This same principle can be applied to NS2. Try to not blow it out of proportion by using words like "financial haves and have not's." If a player cannot afford a $10 - $20 addition every year and a half or so then they probably can't afford the computer and monthly internet required to run NS2. Additionally, the scenario you described above has never happened in my gaming experience. Companies are unable to produce meaningful content that players will pay for 'every few months.' Take Battlefield 2142 for example. They released one 'booster pack' called 'Northern Strike' for $10 and it had <i>a lot</i> of content which reinvigorated 2142 for me and my friends and the community loved it. For those that didn't buy Northern Strike they just didn't join the Northern Strike servers. The vanilla 2142 community was alive and well.
Who knows what additional features the dev's may want to add into NS2 a year or two after NS2's release but whatever it is, if anything, they should be compensated for their time and effort. Calling it an expansion or DLC doesn't matter to me but the idea that companies should release brand new content, never intended for initial release, free to the community is a little silly. The idea that they shouldn't try to create new content, outside of an entirely new game, because some people will be upset they're being charged for it is even more silly.
Two years from now if UWE has released a significant content update, like new weapons/gamemodes/upgrades/etc, for free consider it a gift and not an entitlement.
Yeah, every time I see the red wolf avatar I know to brace myself for a face palm. If he keeps it up, I am going to be getting bruises soon.
Special amongst thousands! :)
If the original pont wasn't clear enough, let me reiterate: a <b>single-player[]/b] game is one in which you enjoy [b]in solitude</b> - whatever extra adornments you have or have not are for your own personal enjoyment. An exclusively <b>multiplayer</b> game by contrast necessitates a <b>community</b> which means you must "share" your haves and have-nots with those who share them back. The impact of DLC on a SP game is inconsequential, while releasing it on an MP game is akin to chucking a fragmentation grenade into your community bunker - you end up with pieces of your community all over the place, some with the DLC, some without, and many wishing it didn't exist.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Take Battlefield 2142 for example.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, let's take Battlefield, but if you're only citing 2142, then you've missed a lot - it's happened time and again before. BF1942 saw Secret Weapons and BF2, Euro forces, Special forces, and Armoured Fury. The result? Not but a few months after the hype had died the battlefield was strewn with half-populated casualties. The playerbase existed, but where had they gone? Utterly fragmented with servers switching to SF or EU or AF or some combination thereof and others routeinly dropping half their connected clients after a switch to an expansion map. If for such a large community it could have that effect, I don't want to see what it would do for NS2.
No one is saying brand new content is unwelcome, release well-done and substantial patches and you'll be among the few that do in this industry. But if you need to make your bread and butter with paid DLC then realize it comes at the cost of your community and there are only so many things we'd take a grenade for.
I don't want to pay to do that kind of work for UWE. They are smart to expose alpha to as few people as possible. The people that are exposed already gave up 40 bucks for a game they're not sure will ever finish, so they have a bit of rose colored glasses syndrome already.
It would be a really bad move to distribute alpha to all purchasers. Alpha is not a finished game.
We must have had vastly different experiences. I played BF2 competitively past the release of all expansion/booster packs except the one. I was never once dropped from a pub server due to not having a map (literally, not once) and I found that most servers with these packs only played those packs. The playerbase survived all booster packs just fine and in 2009 DICE, or rather EA as it was likely their decision, made them free for everyone. Rainbow Six: Rogue Spear, the game I played for many years and which consumed my early life, had three 'expansion' packs released. The community survived fine and the added maps were welcome.
I don't disagree that excessive paid content can cause a rift in a community as you have a point there, at least in theory. I do disagree with the idea that additional paid content is some kind of monster coming from the shadows to destroy the communities and playerbases of the games they're released for, which is how you described the paid content for BF2. In my years of gaming I've never experienced any noticable negative side effects from DLC or expansion packs.
Either way, the point is moot. I think it's very doubtful that UWE will release paid content within the first year and a half of NS2's life. Maybe after two years we may hear some talks about it but I'm sure UWE will make any decision with the community in mind. The last thing any game developer wants to do is destroy their game, save the SWG developers. That was their pastime.
Last time i heard, the devs weren't making a CO mode and instead expecting the community to roll their own. Seeing as how people are already making deathmatch modes for the engine test, we can expect at least 5 different forms of community made CO :)
There, no more fragmented community! Really though I don't think it will be a problem for NS2. I mean, DLC/expansions? Really?
In terms of alpha and stuff for SE for the pre-orders, I think they'll restrict the real alpha to Special Edition. Partly as incentive, partly so that only the more dedicated (and thus perhaps tester minded) players will see the rougher versions, thus not fouling the pool, and thus maintaining that it's still IN DEVELOPMENT.
Probably the Engine Test was opened up for finding more basic bugs faster and to generate publicity. No harm in that, imo.
There, no more fragmented community! Really though I don't think it will be a problem for NS2. I mean, DLC/expansions? Really?
In terms of alpha and stuff for SE for the pre-orders, I think they'll restrict the real alpha to Special Edition. Partly as incentive, partly so that only the more dedicated (and thus perhaps tester minded) players will see the rougher versions, thus not fouling the pool, and thus maintaining that it's still IN DEVELOPMENT.
Probably the Engine Test was opened up for finding more basic bugs faster and to generate publicity. No harm in that, imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Extra races? For NS? What are you smoking? It works for Dawn of War because it creates an entire new side. To add things like new weapons and upgrades cripples teams. New maps mean those without the DLC get kicked on a map change they haven't paid for. If you think they are going to start adding in new races... then damn, you really are crazy.
SOMEONE IS NOT PAYING ATTENTION!!!!!
Main Point: Let all multi people play together. DoW did this, even when adding whole new races. How? Let everyone have new maps and new units, just restrict which races! Never once did I mention adding a new race to NS2.
The only realistic DLC are weapons/upgrades for NS2. And they have to fit a niche and not be strictly better than the originals (see most TF2 unlocks). Yes, maps can fracture the community, which is WHY YOU WOULDN'T MAKE THEM EXCLUSIVE!!!
I don't think weapons and upgrades are that viable in a team based game either. At least in original NS every weapon had a purpose and necessity for the most of the game. It's not nice if your gameplay plan fails because someone can't access the whole tech tree and do his job at a crucial moment.
In TF2 it worked because it doesn't have much of a team dependency culture, apart from having a medic in your team. Meanwhile in NS there are moments when you want your teammates to do something specific. At those moments I want them to be playing the exact same game as I do, otherwise it's going to be a mess and I don't know if I can rely on my teammates one bit.
Not all DLC is bad, infact, DLC is probably one of the best things to hit gaming in a long time as long as it's not abused. Yeah, i think the MW2 map pack was abuse. But I can name a bunch of paid and non paid DLC that have been just fantastic for gaming over the last 2 years.
If UWE ever does decide to add paid dlc, which honestly, it's doubtful anyway, because it's very hard to unify paid DLC models and DLC requirements into MP games that arent regulated through a mutual system such as iwnet.
Instead it looks like we'll have cosmetic dlc? Soundtracks, etc. If UWE took the time to reskin weapons to match the black marine model and changed 2 bucks for it, they'd make great profit, and anyone who whines about how it's not worth money and it should be free, you obviously don't realize it takes time(which equates to money) to make these things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The worst part about dlc, which we already know won't effect ns2 luckily, is that developers don't put in mapping tools or allow modding. I'm just ranting, but rebellion really pissed me off by not allowing custom maps and trying to scam avp players out of more money for something that should be free (more maps).
I don't know anything about graphics design, maybe doing this is too difficult or cost prohibitive, but it seems like a really good way to put in dlc that doesn't negatively effect gameplay like maps or weapons.
however releasing an alpha to everyone might not be a good idea as people will get the wrong impression of the game - OH ITS NOT FINISHED etc
That is also an good idea but imho the only "good" dlc for MP games is DLC that's strictly "visual" stuff that doesn't impact the gameplay or fracture the community.
But you still haven't explained how your DoW example would work with an paid NS2 map...
I still would love for UWE to add paid DLC in a non inversive way, like they did with the black marine armor. Selling custom skin packs, maybe even custom animations for small money. Your weapon idea could work too but needs alot more work for balancing, it still could work... for example people could buy something like an alternate LMG with slower RoF but higher bullet damage and an different skin.
I really would love that because this kind of DLC for an MP game doesn't put anybody at a disadvantage that didn't pay but at the same time gives people the option to throw some more money at UWE.
League Of Legends has 2 ways to unlock heroes: Influence points built up by playing, and Riot Points which you buy with real money. However, Runes, a slight perk that gives a slight edge (+0.16 damage) is only buyable using Influence Points, and skins (purely aesthetics) are only purchasable via Riot Points. Also, Riot Points are the only way to buy boosters, like a limited period of 2x IP gain.
However, _if_ NS2 wants to do weapon DLCs, they must ensure that DLC and non-DLC players can still play together and for the DLC players to not have an obscene advantage. Sure they may have more variety, just like DoW players get more races, but that doesn't mean the new stuff is strictly better than the old stuff.
Main Point: Let all multi people play together. DoW did this, even when adding whole new races. How? Let everyone have new maps and new units, just restrict which races! Never once did I mention adding a new race to NS2.
The only realistic DLC are weapons/upgrades for NS2. And they have to fit a niche and not be strictly better than the originals (see most TF2 unlocks). Yes, maps can fracture the community, which is WHY YOU WOULDN'T MAKE THEM EXCLUSIVE!!!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
SOMEONE IS NOT PAYING ATTENTION!!!!!
Main Point: How the hell do you restrict races if they don't add them? Everyone gets Marines and Aliens. You want to restrict races but not add them? What the hell are you talking about? If everyone gets everything free then there's no problem. What the hell are you even trying to argue? Do you even know? We're talking about paid DLC because that's the only time it causes problems.
there's a post right before your own that covers everything you just said.
That probably wont work. I don't know what checks ns2 has but im sure it has checks to see if you use the dll's from the engine test or the alpha. And only copying the lua's files wont work either since you dont have the updated .dll files.
However, within that 95% they're will be people who would get pissed off based on principle, because their exclusive $40 alpha access means squat. I don't as I wanted to give UWE something extra just for NS1, but the agreement was clear and I would understand other getting pissed or feeling cheated.
Common sense, really.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This.