They are whining. You forgot to comment on the "you don't like the game, make a better one" comment too. Less whine and develop your own game if you're not happy.
i am kind of upset to hear that movement was dumbed down.
quakelive (you guys know i play it a lot) has one of the deepest movement systems in any game that it took straight from q3. frankly, a new player can improve and survive by shooting straight, but a GOOD or experienced player will be able to move faster than noobs. Not every game needs to be straight out of the box playable like mw2. it took me months of quake to get to the point that i could play tier one players and win... it took a lot of learning.
what makes a competitive game competitive is the ability for people to get constantly better, not in the stupid battlefield unlocks way but in the understanding the mechanics of the game, the guns, the movement way. this is a big deal to me.
I merely spoke my concerns and meant to say that most competitive players think the same way. Some opinions varie thats granted but its pretty much the same in the end.
Donner & Blitzen you might wanna read before quoting although it is a very cool feature. Also read how the powergrid works and you might understand that 5 routes is a bit too much to ask for. You may want to express us few good examples of teamwork in public or otherwise it is as valid as polar bears habiting Finland.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Yeah, but you can still have that. While keeping the surface of the game easy to get into, getting players to have fun on all levels of skills or interest is important. Besides we still can't judge the game on depth in terms of movement, heck we don't even know what the fade is going to look like or the heavy and how dynamic infestation works...
A game needs to be accessible for everyone to have fun, but can still have that depth, which can only be learned trough long term commitment of learning each and every thing about the engine/map/game play etc...
Heck if we're talking about battlefield (engine) and all. I used to have loads of fun on Forgotten Hope, I knew close to everything there is to know about the game and all the various weapons/vehicles... And someone who didn't know a Tiger would be able to shrug off almost anything a 75mm Sherman could throw at it (from the front), they'd be surprised at the sheer power of this Tiger tank. This is of course using their knowledge of vanilla BF1942.
But even if the Tiger was this strong, a few good infantry guys with AT weaponry could take it out quite quickly, or a good pilot using TS with soldiers on the ground to coordinate an attack. And maybe even the most amazing teamplay I've ever had in any game was when I was guiding a friend of min is his fragile Sherman Firefly (tank killer), to take out two far superior tanks (Tiger1 and Tiger2), using cover and me as a spotter to move his tank in position. On shot from either of these tanks and our Firefly would've been shrapnel. That kind of stuff is something I want to see in this game...
The ability to have fun on a basic level of game play (newbie play), while still having the depth and coordination I mentioned in my FH examples
<!--quoteo(post=1759932:date=Mar 18 2010, 10:15 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Mar 18 2010, 10:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759932"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I merely spoke my concerns and meant to say that most competitive players think the same way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd like names of 'most' competitive players then. Prove your theory.
You have no credibility without naming names. As far as I can see, you're whining from your perspective and saying "other players" that you can't name. Granted if you said "EvolveNS" I'd believe you because well, I've read their utter stupid replies on their forums.
Linking the ENSL website shows you've done nothing but whine and then said "this guys might agree with me". You haven't actually spoke to people and personally named them. You have zero credibility and your argument is a weak one.
PS. My point is proven via dux above who is part of ENSL and says he doesn't agree with you. Get a better argument TrC.
<!--quoteo(post=1759946:date=Mar 19 2010, 03:14 AM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Mar 19 2010, 03:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759946"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Linking the ENSL website shows you've done nothing but whine and then said "this guys might agree with me". You haven't actually spoke to people and personally named them. You have zero credibility and your argument is a weak one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You are not giving up are you? Check out forums / comments regarding changes unless of course I influenced them to think this or that way? I realized that you are slow but dux aint everyone now is he?
I see a thread with what people would like to see, I see a thread about the Spark editor, I see alpha anticipation.
I don't see all this rage you claim the whole site is going on about. I'm not biting any further. You're being an idiot trying to impose your opinion as ENSL's opinion which is wrong.
You might also want to realise the NS2 team have been working with competitive players and speaking to them about the game; oh and you might notice a dev is a competitive player too.
Last time I'll comment on this, you're just trash talking and your opinion is your own opinion and you are entitled to it. However don't go saying it's the opinion of "everyone else", when you can not back it up or validate it. Let them do that for you, if it really is true.
I agree with puzl. Generally my only concern about alien commanding, is that it'd be boring. Marine commanding can be rather boring already, so I hope the alien commander gets lots of macro and micro stuff to do.
TrC, while there are some negative response to some upcoming features from the competitive community, you cannot speak for all.
<!--quoteo(post=1759951:date=Mar 19 2010, 03:21 AM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Mar 19 2010, 03:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759951"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I see a thread with what people would like to see, I see a thread about the Spark editor, I see alpha anticipation.
I don't see all this rage you claim the whole site is going on about. I'm not biting any further. You're being an idiot trying to impose your opinion as ENSL's opinion which is wrong.
You might also want to realise the NS2 team have been working with competitive players and speaking to them about the game; oh and you might notice a dev is a competitive player too.
Last time I'll comment on this, you're just trash talking and your opinion is your own opinion and you are entitled to it. However don't go saying it's the opinion of "everyone else", when you can not back it up or validate it. Let them do that for you, if it really is true.
/end<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think you are raging to my post/posts for some reason, making up or twisting words to make me look "bad". While I wouldnt normally care atm it bothers me if someone reading this thinks that your twist is actually truth. Just like Jiriki on above post thought, that was never my intention, it was to "read the site/forums comments" and I'm sorry if someone interepted it that way.
<!--quoteo(post=1759954:date=Mar 18 2010, 11:29 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Mar 18 2010, 11:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759954"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think you are raging to my post/posts for some reason, making up or twisting words to make me look "bad". While I wouldnt normally care atm it bothers me if someone reading this thinks that your twist is actually truth. Just like Jiriki on above post thought, that was never my intention, it was to "read the site/forums comments" and I'm sorry if someone interepted it that way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay let's interpret this:
<!--quoteo(post=1759940:date=Mar 18 2010, 10:46 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Mar 18 2010, 10:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759940"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd like names of 'most' competitive players then. Prove your theory.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1759946:date=Mar 18 2010, 06:14 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Mar 18 2010, 06:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759946"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Linking the ENSL website shows you've done nothing but whine and then said "this guys might agree with me". You haven't actually spoke to people and personally named them. You have zero credibility and your argument is a weak one.
PS. My point is proven via dux above who is part of ENSL and says he doesn't agree with you. Get a better argument TrC.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sup, I partially agree with TrC ( i posted here one page ago ). Also with all due respect to dux, saying he is "part of ENSL" may be a bit huge. Plus the fact that he's in the UnknownWorlds team makes it a bit special.
I don't see why you keep adding "EvolveNS" to every post of yours. I think you should go and get to know the ENSL community a bit much better.
<!--quoteo(post=1759952:date=Mar 18 2010, 04:24 PM:name=Jiriki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jiriki @ Mar 18 2010, 04:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759952"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Generally my only concern about alien commanding, is that it'd be boring. Marine commanding can be rather boring already, so I hope the alien commander gets lots of macro and micro stuff to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Man, I can't believe you commanded a match if that's what you think. The commander on my team, and the few other competitive commanders I knew, all turned from normal people into high-strung primadonnas the instant they logged into the chair because of how much stress the position placed on them. Its easy to understand if you think about it. They're basically simultaneously playing scout, medic and engineer classes from TF2, and expected to support everyone on the team at once. That's the main reason I think multiple commanders might work.
<!--quoteo(post=1759857:date=Mar 18 2010, 10:04 AM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Mar 18 2010, 10:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759857"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->UWE has developed a system that encourages more locations to be important, rather than just the starting locations, and I can't see how that makes the game less variable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats the dumb thing, UWE and these "tech points" TELL you where to go, where the strategic points are. Thats dumb. Nothing was better than when you got into a public server and showed everyone how important small hallways were. You could find the most remote and weird places in NS1 and they'd be of such importance. Myabe it's just me, but I don't want a noob friendly game, this is a sequel, so I'd like to think that more than half the NS2 players would have been NS1 players too.
All the bunny hopping and movement importance made the game what it was. With wall climbing and flying lerks, the game SHOULD be about movement. Nothing was better than being a skulk, and running down a long hallway to a marine and not even getting a scratch on you. Or being a marine and just dodging 2 skulks biting on your toes while filling them full of lead.
Regarding TrC and renegade, you two are very like-minded with me. Thanks for clearing up some of the stuff I left vague. Also glad to hear I'm not the only one that is dissapointed with a lot of the announcements.
Thaldarin, Please stop flaming people in my thread, I'd love to hear a good arguement but you just seem to be here to put down other people about offtopic things. That being said, love your posts on the "The Post Your Screenshots Thread!"
Regarding Kouji_san... I was once a noob in NS1. Everyone was, and we got better. You can't expect to drop yourself in a FPS and do well. CS is an awesome example....spawn, get headshot, learn your lesson. Same in BF and CoD. Doing stupid stuff is how you learn. On your other notes, Losing due to a couple idiots on your team doesn't happen. In a big public server a couple idiots shoulden't make any difference. You also have to remember that with no stat tracking, WHO CARES IF YOU LOSE A PUBLIC MATCH? This is a game, and playing it is funn..AMIRITE?
Lastly, I'd like to say a lot of you are right. I am afraid they're changing my beloved NS into something different. Like I said though, I just want to discuss this, I am going to buy the game, and I do have high hopes for it. Just got to cross my fingers that the NEW gameplay will be just as good if not better.
<!--quoteo(post=1759962:date=Mar 18 2010, 07:14 PM:name=noncomposmentis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (noncomposmentis @ Mar 18 2010, 07:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759962"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Man, I can't believe you commanded a match if that's what you think. The commander on my team, and the few other competitive commanders I knew, all turned from normal people into high-strung primadonnas the instant they logged into the chair because of how much stress the position placed on them. Its easy to understand if you think about it. They're basically simultaneously playing scout, medic and engineer classes from TF2, and expected to support everyone on the team at once. That's the main reason I think multiple commanders might work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1759965:date=Mar 19 2010, 12:23 AM:name=wesman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wesman @ Mar 19 2010, 12:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759965"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thaldarin, Please stop flaming people in my thread, I'd love to hear a good arguement but you just seem to be here to put down other people about offtopic things. That being said, love your posts on the "The Post Your Screenshots Thread!"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're arguing theories about an unreleased game which you haven't played saying it's going to be bad without trying it. Please, tell me where I'm going wrong. Wait and see before you start demanding it be changed?
<!--quoteo(post=1759965:date=Mar 19 2010, 12:23 AM:name=wesman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wesman @ Mar 19 2010, 12:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759965"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That being said, love your posts on the "The Post Your Screenshots Thread!"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thaldarin, you're not even reading my posts. I'm not demanding they change anything. I've also said twice now that I look forward to playing it. This is a forum, we discuss things. I'd love to hear some relevant conversation about the topic from you.
Regarding your posts in "The Post Your Screenshots Thread!". I just want to say you're ideas for rooms looks nice. Your skills with spark also appear....popular-map-worthy
<!--quoteo(post=1759967:date=Mar 18 2010, 05:35 PM:name=huhuh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huhuh @ Mar 18 2010, 05:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759967"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow. Calling jiriki a noob comm ?
Awesome. No, seriously. I mean it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Did I call him a noob comm? Must have been a typo... or else you're reading my post completely wrong. Yup probably a typo.
<!--quoteo(post=1759969:date=Mar 19 2010, 12:44 AM:name=wesman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wesman @ Mar 19 2010, 12:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759969"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thaldarin, you're not even reading my posts. I'm not demanding they change anything. I've also said twice now that I look forward to playing it. This is a forum, we discuss things. I'd love to hear some relevant conversation about the topic from you.
Regarding your posts in "The Post Your Screenshots Thread!". I just want to say you're ideas for rooms looks nice. Your skills with spark also appear....popular-map-worthy<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Apologies, I am brandishing certain people with the same brush for 'competitive'. It's just really irritating to hear the same stuff in here from a random person or two, months apart saying the competitive community hate this and that when they haven't played it.
On the gameplay? There's nothing to discuss really. I'd like to pan out and see how it plays, all I do is go by the mapping guidelines which are left well open to interpretation.
<!--quoteo(post=1759970:date=Mar 18 2010, 07:46 PM:name=noncomposmentis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (noncomposmentis @ Mar 18 2010, 07:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759970"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Did I call him a noob comm? Must have been a typo... or else you're reading my post completely wrong. Yup probably a typo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Man, I can't believe you commanded a match if that's what you think.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well hopefully, it will be friendly for new players but not simplistic. There's no reason to be elitist; in any case, if you have more experience and skill, you should come out on top, so there's nothing to worry about.
Remember that this is a commercial product, so it's better to sell two copies to casual gamers than one copy to a competitive one. If it's like current NS, new players would flee faster than you could say pistol whipped.
The problem with NS1 is that a new player has no clue whatsoever as to what to do. Making objectives clearer is a great step forward, and it doesn't necessarily mean dumbing the game down. If memory serves, wasn't the multi-gorge model and the lifeforms unchained to hives considered as "dumbing the game down"? It's not because it looks simpler that it's easier to master.
Same thing here; if new players are ultimately drawn towards tech points, that only means they can get into the game faster, that doesn't mean they'll cover said tech point with the same efficiency as veteran players.
I think it's related to the comment in which he said commanding sounds as if it's going to be boring. It's not a thrown around insult, just noncomposmentis saying he doesn't understand why you'd think commanding is going to be boring.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2010
I think the unified res and powergrid systems could be good for gameplay. This is definitely one area of NS2 that needs to be tried out before one can make any sort of informed judgements about it. Simply because it's so different that NS1 experience is very unlikely to apply (unlike the recent Lerk debate).
Most competitive players don't actually want NS2 to be just NS1 with shiny graphics, although it may seem like that sometimes.
Yea, I understand the importance of bringing in and keeping those new players/ first timers cereal killer. What I don't understand though is WHY new players need to be at those techpoints. I used to love running around solo, lost as hell and juss killing aliens. Isn't that what an FPS is about afterall? Sure we're all thinking strategy and teamplay, but for these new players who we're trying to welcome, they won't have that on their mind. This is a game, and in public servers players (vets or noobs) are there to have fun.
Which brings me back to the topic, changing the gameplay. I just like having more variations in the game. No one wants to all spawn in set points and have everyone in the server all run to the known best techpoint because they all know that one room will make or break the game. Right from the starting situation through to the styles of the two races. I don't want generic buttons to mash as either team to win. Hard to explain, I'm just speaking from the heart, but my heart doesn't know english.
<!--quoteo(post=1759921:date=Mar 18 2010, 05:43 PM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Mar 18 2010, 05:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759921"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Experience bridges the gaps in information. No more so did TFC veterans need to wait for TF2's release do NS veterans need to wait for NS2's release to figure what has become of their game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What? No. You might think you have the experience to predict the unknown, but you don't. You can't. Anything you may have failed to predict would be unknown to you because that is the very definition of the unknown; you don't know it.
If it so happens that your prediction is correct, it is not because you knew it beforehand, but because the circumstances have conformed to your prediction.
I'm not saying the dissenters will be wrong. They may be right. However, they will only be right when someone plays the game to find out.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On the contrary, not knowing when to give up even when all indications point to failure is a naive attitude. Simply because you yourself lack the experience to make such conclusions doesn't mean that there isn't enough information for others to reach one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are few indications, and as I've just stated above, an infinite amount of unknowns. To give up is irrational.
<!--quoteo(post=1759932:date=Mar 18 2010, 06:15 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Mar 18 2010, 06:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759932"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Donner & Blitzen you might wanna read before quoting although it is a very cool feature. Also read how the powergrid works and you might understand that 5 routes is a bit too much to ask for. You may want to express us few good examples of teamwork in public or otherwise it is as valid as polar bears habiting Finland.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The irony is scathing. Oh, your wit soars too high for me!
Read how I was unsure of the magnitude of teamwork in competitive games as opposed to the best example of in public games, a point which I believe, is in the slightest way related to my quotation.
Another point I'd like to make is something that I've noticed about people in general. That is, they want variety, but only in theory. In reality, given variety, everyone will always disregard that variety and choose one thing. For example, look at the variety of maps NS has to offer. How many of those maps actually get played often?
Look at the state of strategy in NS right now. Why should there be the "correct" thing to do? Why should there be "that one place we have to take and hold"? That doesn't sound like variety to me. The problem is given time, people will always find the best/quickest/easiest solution and stick with it. I think if there is true variety, the "best" option should never be entirely clear.
A week or so ago, I played a game where the commander put infantry portals in another part of the map. Not a relocate, more like multiple bases. A forward barracks, if you will. The chat area instantly flooded with eject votes. I think that's a poor attitude, that when someone tries something new, we should disregard it because it isn't what the established best course of action is. To me, that's a sign of a <i>lack</i> of depth to the game.
When we're talking about keeping/expanding the depth that NS1 has in NS2, should we be focusing on making more of X and more of Y, or should we be focusing on putting real value in what already exists? I think this is what NS2 is trying to accomplish. Sure, NS1 maps are a maze of corridors and vents. How many of those are actually useful? It may look like variety, but it's not really when everyone walks the same paths. NS2 maps may be simpler, but it's simply a case of trimming away unwanted fat.
Of course, there's the other side to this. You may have many equally viable options, but at what point do equally viable options turn into virtually identical options?
I think the real key to NS2's success is whether or not it will be able to strike a balance, and NOT whether or not skulks have 10 more HP, how many hives you have, etc.
One last thing is why is "more skilled" always better? Maybe it's not? Let's assume NS2 does lower the "skill ceiling" somewhat. Is that part not redeemable in other ways?
<!--quoteo(post=1759973:date=Mar 18 2010, 05:56 PM:name=huhuh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huhuh @ Mar 18 2010, 05:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759973"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Further explanations may help<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Read my first sentence like this: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole" target="_blank">"Yo dude you had a totally different experience then me man."</a> Really, I promise I never intend to be insulting =)
I remember thinking that it was a good example of how Euros took things more seriously then Americans how you guys called your competitive games "CLAN WARS" (RARGL) whereas we call them scrims or matches. But maybe this is a counterexample?
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=wesman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wesman)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I used to love running around solo, lost as hell and juss killing aliens. Isn't that what an FPS is about afterall? Sure we're all thinking strategy and teamplay, but for these new players who we're trying to welcome, they won't have that on their mind. This is a game, and in public servers players (vets or noobs) are there to have fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> As far as making the object of the game more obvious to noobs. It's all well and good to have run ramboing for the first 10 minutes of the game, but then when the noobs are getting spawn killed by 4 fades, they don't make the connection between that and the fact that they didn't use any teamwork, so they get frustrated and ragequit. If powergrids and such make it obvious that teamwork is what wins then less newbies will act like chickens with their heads cut off. Obviously that's a pretty big if, though.
<!--quoteo(post=1759927:date=Mar 18 2010, 04:57 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Mar 18 2010, 04:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759927"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You forgot to comment on the "you don't like the game, make a better one" comment too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I didn't <i>forget</i>, "if you don't like it go make your own" doesn't warrant a response from anyone over the age of three.
<!--quoteo(post=1759943:date=Mar 18 2010, 06:04 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Mar 18 2010, 06:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759943"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They are whining...Less whine ....you're whining<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> argumentum ad whinum: everyone's whining
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're arguing theories about an unreleased game which you haven't played saying it's going to be bad without trying it. Please, tell me where I'm going wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Forced match-making was a theory. IWnet was a theory. No dedicated servers was a theory. Cel-shading, another theory. Pity the fools who ignored all those theories.
Comments
quakelive (you guys know i play it a lot) has one of the deepest movement systems in any game that it took straight from q3. frankly, a new player can improve and survive by shooting straight, but a GOOD or experienced player will be able to move faster than noobs. Not every game needs to be straight out of the box playable like mw2. it took me months of quake to get to the point that i could play tier one players and win... it took a lot of learning.
what makes a competitive game competitive is the ability for people to get constantly better, not in the stupid battlefield unlocks way but in the understanding the mechanics of the game, the guns, the movement way. this is a big deal to me.
Donner & Blitzen you might wanna read before quoting although it is a very cool feature. Also read how the powergrid works and you might understand that 5 routes is a bit too much to ask for. You may want to express us few good examples of teamwork in public or otherwise it is as valid as polar bears habiting Finland.
A game needs to be accessible for everyone to have fun, but can still have that depth, which can only be learned trough long term commitment of learning each and every thing about the engine/map/game play etc...
Heck if we're talking about battlefield (engine) and all. I used to have loads of fun on Forgotten Hope, I knew close to everything there is to know about the game and all the various weapons/vehicles... And someone who didn't know a Tiger would be able to shrug off almost anything a 75mm Sherman could throw at it (from the front), they'd be surprised at the sheer power of this Tiger tank. This is of course using their knowledge of vanilla BF1942.
But even if the Tiger was this strong, a few good infantry guys with AT weaponry could take it out quite quickly, or a good pilot using TS with soldiers on the ground to coordinate an attack. And maybe even the most amazing teamplay I've ever had in any game was when I was guiding a friend of min is his fragile Sherman Firefly (tank killer), to take out two far superior tanks (Tiger1 and Tiger2), using cover and me as a spotter to move his tank in position. On shot from either of these tanks and our Firefly would've been shrapnel. That kind of stuff is something I want to see in this game...
The ability to have fun on a basic level of game play (newbie play), while still having the depth and coordination I mentioned in my FH examples
/rant mode off :P
I'd like names of 'most' competitive players then. Prove your theory.
No credibility. You argument ends there TrC.
You could just have said "I dont believe you".
PS. My point is proven via dux above who is part of ENSL and says he doesn't agree with you. Get a better argument TrC.
You are not giving up are you? Check out forums / comments regarding changes unless of course I influenced them to think this or that way? I realized that you are slow but dux aint everyone now is he?
I don't see all this rage you claim the whole site is going on about. I'm not biting any further. You're being an idiot trying to impose your opinion as ENSL's opinion which is wrong.
You might also want to realise the NS2 team have been working with competitive players and speaking to them about the game; oh and you might notice a dev is a competitive player too.
Last time I'll comment on this, you're just trash talking and your opinion is your own opinion and you are entitled to it. However don't go saying it's the opinion of "everyone else", when you can not back it up or validate it. Let them do that for you, if it really is true.
/end
TrC, while there are some negative response to some upcoming features from the competitive community, you cannot speak for all.
OP, please stop the overuse of dots.
I don't see all this rage you claim the whole site is going on about. I'm not biting any further. You're being an idiot trying to impose your opinion as ENSL's opinion which is wrong.
You might also want to realise the NS2 team have been working with competitive players and speaking to them about the game; oh and you might notice a dev is a competitive player too.
Last time I'll comment on this, you're just trash talking and your opinion is your own opinion and you are entitled to it. However don't go saying it's the opinion of "everyone else", when you can not back it up or validate it. Let them do that for you, if it really is true.
/end<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you are raging to my post/posts for some reason, making up or twisting words to make me look "bad". While I wouldnt normally care atm it bothers me if someone reading this thinks that your twist is actually truth. Just like Jiriki on above post thought, that was never my intention, it was to "read the site/forums comments" and I'm sorry if someone interepted it that way.
Okay let's interpret this:
<!--quoteo(post=1759940:date=Mar 18 2010, 10:46 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Mar 18 2010, 10:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759940"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd like names of 'most' competitive players then. Prove your theory.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1759941:date=Mar 18 2010, 11:01 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Mar 18 2010, 11:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759941"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ensl.org<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're saying everyone agree's with you. I'm not raging at your posts, I'm pointing out you're not the whole opinion of "the competitive community".
PS. My point is proven via dux above who is part of ENSL and says he doesn't agree with you. Get a better argument TrC.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sup,
I partially agree with TrC ( i posted here one page ago ).
Also with all due respect to dux, saying he is "part of ENSL" may be a bit huge. Plus the fact that he's in the UnknownWorlds team makes it a bit special.
I don't see why you keep adding "EvolveNS" to every post of yours. I think you should go and get to know the ENSL community a bit much better.
Man, I can't believe you commanded a match if that's what you think. The commander on my team, and the few other competitive commanders I knew, all turned from normal people into high-strung primadonnas the instant they logged into the chair because of how much stress the position placed on them. Its easy to understand if you think about it. They're basically simultaneously playing scout, medic and engineer classes from TF2, and expected to support everyone on the team at once. That's the main reason I think multiple commanders might work.
Thats the dumb thing, UWE and these "tech points" TELL you where to go, where the strategic points are. Thats dumb. Nothing was better than when you got into a public server and showed everyone how important small hallways were. You could find the most remote and weird places in NS1 and they'd be of such importance. Myabe it's just me, but I don't want a noob friendly game, this is a sequel, so I'd like to think that more than half the NS2 players would have been NS1 players too.
All the bunny hopping and movement importance made the game what it was. With wall climbing and flying lerks, the game SHOULD be about movement. Nothing was better than being a skulk, and running down a long hallway to a marine and not even getting a scratch on you. Or being a marine and just dodging 2 skulks biting on your toes while filling them full of lead.
Regarding TrC and renegade, you two are very like-minded with me. Thanks for clearing up some of the stuff I left vague. Also glad to hear I'm not the only one that is dissapointed with a lot of the announcements.
Thaldarin, Please stop flaming people in my thread, I'd love to hear a good arguement but you just seem to be here to put down other people about offtopic things. That being said, love your posts on the "The Post Your Screenshots Thread!"
Regarding Kouji_san... I was once a noob in NS1. Everyone was, and we got better. You can't expect to drop yourself in a FPS and do well. CS is an awesome example....spawn, get headshot, learn your lesson. Same in BF and CoD. Doing stupid stuff is how you learn. On your other notes, Losing due to a couple idiots on your team doesn't happen. In a big public server a couple idiots shoulden't make any difference. You also have to remember that with no stat tracking, WHO CARES IF YOU LOSE A PUBLIC MATCH? This is a game, and playing it is funn..AMIRITE?
Lastly, I'd like to say a lot of you are right. I am afraid they're changing my beloved NS into something different. Like I said though, I just want to discuss this, I am going to buy the game, and I do have high hopes for it. Just got to cross my fingers that the NEW gameplay will be just as good if not better.
Wow. Calling jiriki a noob comm ?
Awesome. No, seriously. I mean it.
You're arguing theories about an unreleased game which you haven't played saying it's going to be bad without trying it. Please, tell me where I'm going wrong. Wait and see before you start demanding it be changed?
<!--quoteo(post=1759965:date=Mar 19 2010, 12:23 AM:name=wesman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wesman @ Mar 19 2010, 12:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759965"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That being said, love your posts on the "The Post Your Screenshots Thread!"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Elaborate.
Regarding your posts in "The Post Your Screenshots Thread!". I just want to say you're ideas for rooms looks nice. Your skills with spark also appear....popular-map-worthy
Awesome. No, seriously. I mean it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did I call him a noob comm? Must have been a typo... or else you're reading my post completely wrong. Yup probably a typo.
Regarding your posts in "The Post Your Screenshots Thread!". I just want to say you're ideas for rooms looks nice. Your skills with spark also appear....popular-map-worthy<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Apologies, I am brandishing certain people with the same brush for 'competitive'. It's just really irritating to hear the same stuff in here from a random person or two, months apart saying the competitive community hate this and that when they haven't played it.
On the gameplay? There's nothing to discuss really. I'd like to pan out and see how it plays, all I do is go by the mapping guidelines which are left well open to interpretation.
And it's a piece of tripe =/ But cheers.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Man, I can't believe you commanded a match if that's what you think.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Further explanations may help
Remember that this is a commercial product, so it's better to sell two copies to casual gamers than one copy to a competitive one. If it's like current NS, new players would flee faster than you could say pistol whipped.
The problem with NS1 is that a new player has no clue whatsoever as to what to do. Making objectives clearer is a great step forward, and it doesn't necessarily mean dumbing the game down. If memory serves, wasn't the multi-gorge model and the lifeforms unchained to hives considered as "dumbing the game down"? It's not because it looks simpler that it's easier to master.
Same thing here; if new players are ultimately drawn towards tech points, that only means they can get into the game faster, that doesn't mean they'll cover said tech point with the same efficiency as veteran players.
Most competitive players don't actually want NS2 to be just NS1 with shiny graphics, although it may seem like that sometimes.
Which brings me back to the topic, changing the gameplay. I just like having more variations in the game. No one wants to all spawn in set points and have everyone in the server all run to the known best techpoint because they all know that one room will make or break the game. Right from the starting situation through to the styles of the two races. I don't want generic buttons to mash as either team to win. Hard to explain, I'm just speaking from the heart, but my heart doesn't know english.
What? No. You might think you have the experience to predict the unknown, but you don't. You can't. Anything you may have failed to predict would be unknown to you because that is the very definition of the unknown; you don't know it.
If it so happens that your prediction is correct, it is not because you knew it beforehand, but because the circumstances have conformed to your prediction.
I'm not saying the dissenters will be wrong. They may be right. However, they will only be right when someone plays the game to find out.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On the contrary, not knowing when to give up even when all indications point to failure is a naive attitude. Simply because you yourself lack the experience to make such conclusions doesn't mean that there isn't enough information for others to reach one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are few indications, and as I've just stated above, an infinite amount of unknowns. To give up is irrational.
<!--quoteo(post=1759932:date=Mar 18 2010, 06:15 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Mar 18 2010, 06:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759932"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Donner & Blitzen you might wanna read before quoting although it is a very cool feature. Also read how the powergrid works and you might understand that 5 routes is a bit too much to ask for. You may want to express us few good examples of teamwork in public or otherwise it is as valid as polar bears habiting Finland.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The irony is scathing. Oh, your wit soars too high for me!
Read how I was unsure of the magnitude of teamwork in competitive games as opposed to the best example of in public games, a point which I believe, is in the slightest way related to my quotation.
Another point I'd like to make is something that I've noticed about people in general. That is, they want variety, but only in theory. In reality, given variety, everyone will always disregard that variety and choose one thing. For example, look at the variety of maps NS has to offer. How many of those maps actually get played often?
Look at the state of strategy in NS right now. Why should there be the "correct" thing to do? Why should there be "that one place we have to take and hold"? That doesn't sound like variety to me. The problem is given time, people will always find the best/quickest/easiest solution and stick with it. I think if there is true variety, the "best" option should never be entirely clear.
A week or so ago, I played a game where the commander put infantry portals in another part of the map. Not a relocate, more like multiple bases. A forward barracks, if you will. The chat area instantly flooded with eject votes. I think that's a poor attitude, that when someone tries something new, we should disregard it because it isn't what the established best course of action is. To me, that's a sign of a <i>lack</i> of depth to the game.
When we're talking about keeping/expanding the depth that NS1 has in NS2, should we be focusing on making more of X and more of Y, or should we be focusing on putting real value in what already exists? I think this is what NS2 is trying to accomplish. Sure, NS1 maps are a maze of corridors and vents. How many of those are actually useful? It may look like variety, but it's not really when everyone walks the same paths. NS2 maps may be simpler, but it's simply a case of trimming away unwanted fat.
Of course, there's the other side to this. You may have many equally viable options, but at what point do equally viable options turn into virtually identical options?
I think the real key to NS2's success is whether or not it will be able to strike a balance, and NOT whether or not skulks have 10 more HP, how many hives you have, etc.
One last thing is why is "more skilled" always better? Maybe it's not? Let's assume NS2 does lower the "skill ceiling" somewhat. Is that part not redeemable in other ways?
Read my first sentence like this: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole" target="_blank">"Yo dude you had a totally different experience then me man."</a> Really, I promise I never intend to be insulting =)
I remember thinking that it was a good example of how Euros took things more seriously then Americans how you guys called your competitive games "CLAN WARS" (RARGL) whereas we call them scrims or matches. But maybe this is a counterexample?
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=wesman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wesman)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I used to love running around solo, lost as hell and juss killing aliens. Isn't that what an FPS is about afterall? Sure we're all thinking strategy and teamplay, but for these new players who we're trying to welcome, they won't have that on their mind. This is a game, and in public servers players (vets or noobs) are there to have fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As far as making the object of the game more obvious to noobs. It's all well and good to have run ramboing for the first 10 minutes of the game, but then when the noobs are getting spawn killed by 4 fades, they don't make the connection between that and the fact that they didn't use any teamwork, so they get frustrated and ragequit. If powergrids and such make it obvious that teamwork is what wins then less newbies will act like chickens with their heads cut off. Obviously that's a pretty big if, though.
I didn't <i>forget</i>, "if you don't like it go make your own" doesn't warrant a response from anyone over the age of three.
<!--quoteo(post=1759943:date=Mar 18 2010, 06:04 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Mar 18 2010, 06:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759943"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They are whining...Less whine
....you're whining<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
argumentum ad whinum: everyone's whining
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're arguing theories about an unreleased game which you haven't played saying it's going to be bad without trying it. Please, tell me where I'm going wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Forced match-making was a theory. IWnet was a theory. No dedicated servers was a theory. Cel-shading, another theory. Pity the fools who ignored all those theories.