NS2 changes in gameplay
wesman
Join Date: 2010-03-17 Member: 70990Members
Join Date: 2010-03-17 Member: 70990Members
<div class="IPBDescription">kharaa vs marines</div>This been on my mind for a while now, and I'd like to know what everyone else thinks. I used to play NS1 in cal league and loved the game, and this is why it's bugging me. Now I'm really excited for NS2, and reading craploads of stuiff about it, but I'm just.....confused..
I don't like or agree at ALL with how they're changing the gameplay. First off...aliens having a commander? thats rediculous. I totally understand why... "Because in public servers, when the game hasn't filled yet, aliens have the advantage with split resources, while marines have an advantage in full games with team resources"
Well...doesn't it make sense that although marines will be able to "research" upgrades more....efficiently... it still costs approximatly the same to dish out the HMG's/JP's n heavy armour n such...but I won't want to get into the numbers, because I'm sure I'd be proven wrong.
The MAIN issue I have with alien commanders is the gameplay. Aliens are meant to be more...solo....roam the map...kind of playstyle. Your team has their gorges...and they kinda run around aimlessly n have funn.. It just worked... The marines are supposed to act like a group, going through the map more strategically and with their commander over their head. It's just more of a team feel knowing that commander is watchin over you all.
My second pet peeve as you could call it, with NS2 is simply the fact that they give the aliens a SET starting hive. I'm sure it's to make it easier for the rines, since aliens always knew where the marines started, but the fact is that they didn't always start there. One of the most fond memories I have of NS was the starts where the rines would all try to relocate to a hive spot. It was like....a big gamble. sometimes you'd end up going to the actual hive and either getting a CC down and killing it, or all dying trying, or trying to get to an empty hive after finding out you went to the wrong one.. while all the aliens rushed around looking for you. It was great! Anyways, enough reminiscing.. I just don't see the relevance of having a SET alien starting hive, it REALLY bothers me.
Seems these 2 things are going to take a lot out of the game for me, I dunno..... Still gonna buy it :]
Sorry for the long post, but had to get that off my chest, and want to hear how CRAZY I am, or how many of you completely agree.
Thanks,
Wes.
I don't like or agree at ALL with how they're changing the gameplay. First off...aliens having a commander? thats rediculous. I totally understand why... "Because in public servers, when the game hasn't filled yet, aliens have the advantage with split resources, while marines have an advantage in full games with team resources"
Well...doesn't it make sense that although marines will be able to "research" upgrades more....efficiently... it still costs approximatly the same to dish out the HMG's/JP's n heavy armour n such...but I won't want to get into the numbers, because I'm sure I'd be proven wrong.
The MAIN issue I have with alien commanders is the gameplay. Aliens are meant to be more...solo....roam the map...kind of playstyle. Your team has their gorges...and they kinda run around aimlessly n have funn.. It just worked... The marines are supposed to act like a group, going through the map more strategically and with their commander over their head. It's just more of a team feel knowing that commander is watchin over you all.
My second pet peeve as you could call it, with NS2 is simply the fact that they give the aliens a SET starting hive. I'm sure it's to make it easier for the rines, since aliens always knew where the marines started, but the fact is that they didn't always start there. One of the most fond memories I have of NS was the starts where the rines would all try to relocate to a hive spot. It was like....a big gamble. sometimes you'd end up going to the actual hive and either getting a CC down and killing it, or all dying trying, or trying to get to an empty hive after finding out you went to the wrong one.. while all the aliens rushed around looking for you. It was great! Anyways, enough reminiscing.. I just don't see the relevance of having a SET alien starting hive, it REALLY bothers me.
Seems these 2 things are going to take a lot out of the game for me, I dunno..... Still gonna buy it :]
Sorry for the long post, but had to get that off my chest, and want to hear how CRAZY I am, or how many of you completely agree.
Thanks,
Wes.
Comments
I really don't think it's the main reason and probably far from being it.
<!--quoteo(post=1759750:date=Mar 17 2010, 08:53 PM:name=wesman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wesman @ Mar 17 2010, 08:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759750"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens are meant to be more...solo....roam the map...kind of playstyle. Your team has their gorges...and they kinda run around aimlessly n have funn.. It just worked...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No it does not work. Teamwork is as much important in aliens. Doesn't seem like you've really played in CAL
<!--quoteo(post=1759750:date=Mar 17 2010, 08:53 PM:name=wesman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wesman @ Mar 17 2010, 08:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759750"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My second pet peeve as you could call it, with NS2 is simply the fact that they give the aliens a SET starting hive. I'm sure it's to make it easier for the rines, since aliens always knew where the marines started, but the fact is that they didn't always start there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hum really now, any commander can detect the starting hive in a game.
I fear the strategic part of NS is going to dissapper and the gaming will become more "mechanic" simple and unoriginal with very little choices to be made. The only one starting hive/ms means there will be no different tactics due hives, rts that are capped are the same always, commanders are stripped of any microing that could make differences between commanders. Also the way powergrid system works you cannot make building anywhere there is not power forcing you to choose closest place. No Phase gates render map control to a passive siege ###### making "frontlines".
Also alien commander is now choosing your abilities making it impossible to use variable skill like cloak to ambush, sof to eat res etc. Very little is known about chambers whether if they possess any straits is unknown but the way we are going its going to look bad.
I wish this would be the game I could play for next 5 years but it just does not seem like it. After alpha we get our first grasp how it really is and probably do a very detailed post why it does or does not work. Hopefully UWE will listen us but if not nothing can be done.
Marines buy their own weapons now, whereas the marine commander just focuses on dropping structures, upgrades, etc.
There will be multiple commanders/multiple Command Station's/Multiple Hives for players to enter. More Command Stations/more hives bring their team to tier 2, tier 3,etc.
We have no idea how the alien commander will work, except from Corey's concept from a podcast a long time ago with the hive allowing a gorge to enter from the bottom. We have no idea if it controls dynamic infestation although it's speculated and such. It has been hinted that the alien commander deals more with causing havok/slowing down the progress of the Marines from wiping out the alien team and overthrowing them. Again everything about what the alien commander does is speculated.
The pre-designated hvie/Command Station locations for NS2 was supposedly said to only a feature that will be in early release and then fixed later on down the road. I agree with you, that starting random locations would be awesome, and I'm sure the dev's would definately love this. Dynamic gameplay (every round is always different) is pretty much what the devs are after, and what any strategy-fanatic game devs love doing. Charlie is a huge fan of Company of Heroes, and he can probably agree with me on this. And CoH is a ###### game :D
I really don't get why people are complaining about the gameplay changing. If you like the gameplay of NS so much, go play NS. It's an excellent mod that is highly underrated, and it deserves much more attention, especially when people post their comments about it on the official NS2 forums. Seriously, go play right NOW!.
NS2 will be a new game which is more accessible to more players. Gamedesign wise NS was badly designed, sure it is balanced, but it is too hard to learn for new players... Also what Pipi said...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Doesn't seem like you've really played in CAL<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What with all the weird opinions and false conclusions you made , no pun intended...
you think ns was a poorly designed game? WOW.... ns is an amazingly well designed game. You can complain about the skill curve being a little steep and harsh on newer players, but overall I think NS was probably one of the better game designs of the last 10 years, particularly with regard to competitive play. The fact that ns was so well made, is what makes many players skeptical about ns2, it would be pretty hard for a game to come close to the original ns
Good job coming to a conclusion without knowing the facts. You would make a poor scientist.
The best thing to do at the moment if you are concerned is just...not be. Since we have no idea how the game mechanics work and what other game mechanics have yet to be introduced, by turning speculations into conclusions, you are putting unnecessary mental stress on yourself.
Take the Lerk for example. There was a huge debate on how spikes would ruin the Lerk based on how it was described. Yet some observant people noticed tilted Lerks in various screenshots. Does that mean Lerks will be able to bank in NS2? Who knows. Maybe the flight model has changed such that spikes will be effective in the new game. Who knows how everything they've told us will come together, because they haven't told us everything. So relax.
Thank you, but I'm afraid my experience of competitive gaming and insight in many strategy games is enough to make simple conclusions a casual player cannot do. Nobody knows where this game is really going but if you think its positive you are too optimistic to think it even for a second.
UWE took what? 5 years to balance NS1. They surely won't aim for that much time for NS2. They have to change things and add similarities to the gameplay between both teams so that it gets easily balanced or evaluated for changes.
They're making a full retail game this time, not a mod. I don't know why people are afraid of a new gameplay, it's not like it is completely new.
By the way, I'm pretty confident about the job their doing really.
A good sequel to a game is a simple equation.
1/3 of the best previous elements
1/3 of amelioration
1/3 of new stuff
And that's what I'm seeing happening right now to be honest.
It seems like UWE is removing the core of NS' gameplay. Like that 1/3 old is just being the "kharaa vs frontiersmen" stuff.
Come on, movement un NS is like 1/3 or 1/4 of the game, and building/killing the 2nd hive is also a big 1/5 or 1/4 of the game also. Why remove them ? Changing the means to reach objectives such as "distracting marines" and "killing 2nd hive" is "ok", but changing both the means and the objectives....
Gosh, I wish they did like Starcraft II. Take NS. Remove what's bad. Add some cool mechanics. That's about SC II ( or soon will be ).
Current announced modifications make me feel more like the ration NS2/NS is like the ration WC3/SC you know ? WC3 was not bad but... really boring compared to SC...
The thing I might critizise UWE a tiny bit at this point is that they sometimes fail to connect with part of the community on their tweets and newsposts. Take tweets like autobite or lockdown for example. Without any explanation and placed in the context of NS1 they are going to stir up a lot of drama and worry because they contradict features that made NS1 awesome for a part of the community.
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As for the OP:
<b>The alien commander</b> seems like a reasonable thing to do for the sake of not having to balance the game for various playercounts for the next 5 years or so. The alien commander could also add huge amounts of depth and flexibility to the strategical play, both marines and aliens.
If it turns out to be just a gimmicky res model adjustment, I'm going to be disappointed too. Still, for now it's one of those things that could elevate NS2 into something even more interesting than NS1 was for me.
<b>
The starting location</b> is a little tricky thingy in my opinion. On the other hand I absolutely loved creating strategies that required you to take account multiple hive and node positions. Then again you rarely saw mappers being able to create 3 even remotely balanced hives in one map. The changing maps also probably confused newbies quite a bit (although I can't see why people wouldn't overcome that within a few hours of play as long as they know that the +showmap exists).
The one starting location certainly reduces the amount of variability on it's own, but once again things like Alien Commander can definitely replace that to some extend. For example having 5 viable starting build orders and some scouting system would already add a huge amount of variation to how you might play your strategy.
Once again, if the starting location change leads to two teams always rushing for the middle with similar strategy and clashing in the same spots every round, I'm going to be disappointed. For now I think it's an agreeable change as long as they recognize the issues it has and work around them one way or the other.
Not to mention the resource system will direct players where to go which will improve teamwork and create more fun, frequent, and meaningful battles.
In NS1 if someone joined a server and wanted to be a team player they would either have to get on the mic and ask, probably with no reply, where to go or they would have to guess. In NS2 they can just see where their current powergrid is at, go there, and help push up or defend. At the same time there's still strategic options that open up for clan matches, such as predicting the enemy's resource movement and sending players to intercept and kill gorges / marines or attacking a specific node at as specific time to shut down the grid or cause a distraction.
NS2 needed an equal resource system and NS2 needed a way to direct it's players. Joining a game and asking "so where do you need me?" 5 times won't cut it in a retail game. Plus, we still don't know how the alien resource system works. They may be able to plant nodes down anywhere without following a linear path. This could create very interesting strategies of an alien team rushing one point, putting a node down, and trying to defend that point for as long as possible to stall the marine's powergrid movement (much like putting a gas-collector on one of your enemy's vespene geysers in starcraft).
This change is good and we don't know enough about NS2 to say it sucks.
that said, I'm also skeptical about multiple commanders and that it looks like the kharaa team is becoming a lot more like the marine team, but I have faith that if it doesn't work for the majority of players (always ignore the 10% most extreme users, as they are just whiners or trolls :P), they will change it to something that will work...
<!--quoteo(post=1759826:date=Mar 18 2010, 06:04 PM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (puzl @ Mar 18 2010, 06:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759826"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The unified resouce model is the single biggest improvement in NS2 and it is a win for both public and competitive play. So many good ideas could never be tried out in NS1 because of how fragile the 6v6 economy was.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For example what kind of ideas?
<!--quoteo(post=1759834:date=Mar 18 2010, 07:16 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Mar 18 2010, 07:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759834"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not to mention the resource system will direct players where to go which will improve teamwork and create more fun, frequent, and meaningful battles.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Direct how? Theres no teamwork in public.. ever. Lets assume it is done, how does that add any depth or meaningfulness to the game is certain spot is important enough for everyone or most people to go for? It only makes game less variable if that spot is a must get.
I think the real tragedy is that you don't work as part of the team in public.. ever.
Teamwork exists in public games when the game makes working as a team easy and obvious. For an example, see TF2. In NS1 teamwork didn't exist because working as a team was the sole burden of the players in that round. The powergrid system directs players where to go and in NS1 "where should I go?" was a major question that most players had. The lack of direction lead to rambos running around doing nothing, people sitting in base doing nothing, etc. The game will be more focused and players, without ever communicating and having to wait for a reply, will know where to go.
To say this will make the game less variable isn't accurate. We don't know enough about NS2 to make that claim. In NS1 no rooms really held importance save the three hive rooms and the marine start. UWE has developed a system that encourages more locations to be important, rather than just the starting locations, and I can't see how that makes the game less variable.
He works as part of the team; the rest of the team doesn't work with him.
We haven't heard the details yet, but logically such issues would be found during playtesting.
What I'm personally expecting is for res-for-kill (and maybe other tasks) to be awarded individually only, while node income would be team only.
This is where you are horribly wrong certain stroke points could block aliens way out of the hive. It is also more efficient to build pg not into the hive but to a point where you could quickly mobilize to both the hive and nearby resource towers (Examples System in veil, CAT in tanith) with the powergrid system and no phase tech this aspect is cut off almost completely.
Yes he does. And don't take the few here that care to discuss it as majority - most comps have long abandoned these forums and UWE after learning about NS2.
@Kouji, it's sad that you think easier gameplay makes <i>better</i> gameplay. NS had excellent gameplay.
Your experience of competitive gaming and insight of a game that nobody has played? Right.
<!--quoteo(post=1759849:date=Mar 18 2010, 12:25 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Mar 18 2010, 12:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759849"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Direct how? Theres no teamwork in public.. ever. Lets assume it is done, how does that add any depth or meaningfulness to the game is certain spot is important enough for everyone or most people to go for? It only makes game less variable if that spot is a must get.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's plenty of teamwork in public games, depending on the server and who is on it. Unless you're referring to some kind of hardcore competitive teamwork.
About having a set starting hive. The problem is you're probably thinking of this in terms of NS1. You're thinking of an NS1 map, and imagining if you always started at Computer Core or something. This might limit the dynamics of strategies in NS1, but not necessarily in NS2. Remember that NS2 maps will be tailored for one set hive. For example, we may have only 1 starting hive, with 5 opportunities for expansion in various directions, while NS1 maps typically only had two (not a real statistic, just an example) per hive. Thus the amount of opportunities for map expansion remains the same, it just takes a slightly different form.
- It isn't their vision
- They've yet to play it
- They just want a prettier NS
- They're players, if they really whined enough they'd learn to create their own game.
Why did they abandon these forums after learning about NS2? What did they learn about NS2 aside from the small tidbits of incomplete and out of context information that UWE has been presenting to us?
That's the absolute worst attitude you could ever adopt, for any situation. You're allowed to have concerns, but to give up based on a false conclusion is ridiculous.
I wasn't saying ns was a poorly designed game, the game does work and achieve its goals and is quite balanced. But only when the players ingame know what they are doing. Meaning you'd need players that have previous experience playing the game and know most of the tactics...
The bad side of NS lies in the fact that upfront to new players it does not tell them what to do, like not following orders and not building buildings. Or when they put down a wrong building as a Gorge for instance the aliens would have a hard time winning the round. A game that solely relies on such things has some serious design flaws.
Same goes for the dependence on a commander to buy you weapons and the fact that if a round isn't going too well for the marines. The game could end up in someone jumping in the commchair and recycling everything or maybe buying loads of useless stuff, depleting the resource pool. Not to mention blowing resources on a Fade or Onos and dieing within seconds, because the new player doesn't know how to keep that class alive... Or keeping the other team in resource supply by kamikaze rushing them (RFK)...
I am not dissing the game, it was and is a good game. And still is quite groundbreaking in the balance they achieved and still the only good RTS+FPS hybrid out there. But the fact remains that due to team* and engine limitations. The game does posses these serious design flaws...
You can have the most balanced game in the world, but if new players get scolded or just don't know what is going on ending the round in F4 or just a loss due to their lack of knowledge. Then it is a bad game, no matter how balanced or awesome such a game is... Most of the design flaws I mentioned here are being addressed in NS2 as said in their news articles... Not to mention the Company of Heroes resource sectors (powergrid) idea versus the dynamic infestation (which we do not know the details of)
*at one time only Charlie was working on the game...
That's the absolute worst attitude you could ever adopt, for any situation. You're allowed to have concerns, but to give up based on a false conclusion is ridiculous.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They fear ns1 != ns2
Oh and they are so damn right with that.
Anyways I must agree with Kouji new players have real trouble.
They can't com (instant eject), they get owned on aliens or marines and the game is that much complex they just can't "understand" it in a single hour.
Oh and if they do something wrong they get instant flame.
oh and "if you don't like it you can still cancel your pre-order" (if you have preordered at all)
Firstly, you can thank the underscores to UWE's stupid system switch in '05 which forced me to drop "|2enegade" and doesn't allow renaming.
Secondly, although the community you mention may be comprised of jaded prigs, many also comprised CAL-i when it was still good. Not to mention the many other comps who do not belong to any community who feel the same way of NS2.
Thirdly, those who throw the term "whining" around in their arguments tend to be the most in need of a better one.
<!--quoteo(post=1759906:date=Mar 18 2010, 04:03 PM:name=Donner & Blitzen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Donner & Blitzen @ Mar 18 2010, 04:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759906"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's the absolute worst attitude you could ever adopt, for any situation. You're allowed to have concerns, but to give up based on a false conclusion is ridiculous.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Experience bridges the gaps in information. No more so did TFC veterans need to wait for TF2's release do NS veterans need to wait for NS2's release to figure what has become of their game.
On the contrary, not knowing when to give up even when all indications point to failure is a naive attitude. Simply because you yourself lack the experience to make such conclusions doesn't mean that there isn't enough information for others to reach one.