<!--quoteo(post=1759089:date=Mar 12 2010, 06:47 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Mar 12 2010, 06:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759089"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There certainly is knockback, quite a lot of it sometimes. And you're missing my point - the marine already made a mistake just by walking into a trap. If he was really better, he wouldn't have. In Counter-Strike you can die instantaneously just by sticking your head out in the wrong place, NS is actually extremely arcadey given the supposed focus on teamwork.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Knockback was significantly removed since 3.0. Furthermore a lvl1 marine or most CAL rines can kill a skulk <b>point blank</b> before it has a chance to land the killing bite. Claiming that a skulk should win in a "1v1 skulk vs marine" shows a poor understanding of NS gameplay. Such a scenerio was never intended to be in a skulks favour if the marine has even a shred of skill. A trap laid by a single skulk <b>is no such trap at all</b>. A single skulk is trivial to kill while attempting to ambush from a stationary spot. The only way you can even hope to take down a CAL rine with a single CAL skulk is to perform a long-winded celerity bhop in which your glide caries you to the target faster than he can discern your footsteps.
This is the beauty in disparity that glorified NS1 gameplay - every class slightly trumped the other with none being "1-to-1" equal: skulk < vanilla rine < lerk < lvl1 rine < fade and so forth. You talk of forced team work? NS1 coerced skulk teamwork in that you could rambo rine, but you could not much effectively "rambo skulk". However this was again masterfully countered by forcing marine teamwork by requiring dependency on a central command structure, a burden the kharaa team did not suffer. These subtleties of NS gameplay that most people never see and never get has me weeping for NS2, that such humble yet profound parries will be destroyed by a parallel command structure.
Oh 'lo hold high the noob - lest he rage quit without knowledge of why or whence; we must speed his mastering of skill so shallow it could scarcely drown a louse.
<!--quoteo(post=1758645:date=Mar 10 2010, 04:35 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Mar 10 2010, 04:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758645"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 will be very sad game were skill has very little meaning even once a week players can get their fun because it is so easy. Are you happy?
Put some effort, check guides, get to competitive and you'll be owning public in no time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Making a game easy for new players doesn't mean it'll not be fun for everyone. Look at Team Fortress 2, it's fairly easy to jump in and get some kills, yet even the most experienced players still have fun with it.
I downloaded NS1 a few days ago, I tried it around 2 years ago and found it hard to play. It's still pretty hard, even when I try to copy what other players are doing I get killed easy on both Marine and Alien teams.
<!--quoteo(post=1759141:date=Mar 13 2010, 04:29 AM:name=CowThing)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CowThing @ Mar 13 2010, 04:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759141"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Making a game easy for new players doesn't mean it'll not be fun for everyone. Look at Team Fortress 2, it's fairly easy to jump in and get some kills, yet even the most experienced players still have fun with it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> TF2 is mostly fun because it has got a decent competetive scene. Meanwhile it doesn't provide that much fun in learning to understand the game and there aren't as many memorable game deciding moments and tough decisions as NS has.
So yes, if you like the pure competition, TF2 probably works for you. For a gamer like me who enjoys learning the details, experimenting with them and manipulating the flow through them, TF2 doesn't look all that inviting.
nadyliJoin Date: 2007-11-01Member: 62791Members, Squad Five Blue
How can you compare TF2 and NS? Competitive TF2 is mostly about your dm skills and waiting for your opponent to make mistake to allow you push through chokepoints.
Zek, just look how hated cloak is in NS competitive. While I think there should be more OP units in NS2, I don't think they should be as hard counters as cloak. Enforcing sticking to the team creates kind of a siegemap-style fragfest, which I will never want in vanilla NS. Seriously, have you played siegemaps? There's no much ramboing there, is there? The only ramboing, and probably the only <b>fun</b> part is when you solo chase a fade escaping through the lines with a jetpack.
Ramboing is a high-risk, high-reward strat, there's no point removing it. Besides, true teamwork is when a lone marine ambushes an escaping fade from another marine group. Sticking together doesn't equal teamwork. I have personally made the biggest difference in NS games as a marine by ambushing the lerk or fade in the place it wasn't expecting me. This encourages clever thinking over raw aim.
Again, I think the problem on public should be solved by equal teams, not by removing skill elements. In other words, I think you are correct on identifying the problem, but you're trying to address the symptoms (skill elements) not the cause (inbalanced teams).
<!--quoteo(post=1759091:date=Mar 13 2010, 12:56 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Mar 13 2010, 12:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759091"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No when I play TF2 I get annoyed because the class based system makes my input entirely superfluous in public matches and because I hate strategy I wouldn't ever play in an organised game, I don't play starcraft, and when I played NS a very long time ago I was relatively good at aiming and got kills as a result, I was also about fourteen so I don't think I knew that strategy existed.
In TF2 you miss a lot but you miss a lot because the guns are inaccurate, you usually have close to perfect aim in the sense that your gun does close to 100% of the damage it can do at that range, but it also goes all over the place and doesn't do very much damage, even though that's the best it can do. The point is TF2 removes the need to aim on most of the classes. The TF2 heavy can't move faster than anything and it can't use any sort of finesse with its gun, but it can be very powerful when combined with intelligent use of a medic, as well as in similar situations to the pyro because the minigun does exactly the same thing the flamethrower does at close range.
All TF2 classes have is thoughtful positioning, attack patterns, and cooperation with support classes. The best way to play a heavy is to play it with a medic and use the heavy as a meat shield while at the same time, being aware of the limits of the heal gun. A good heavy medic combo will get a lot of kills and they only get that because they work together intelligently, they can't do anything else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Umm...I'm not trying to give you a hard time here, but it sounds like you're talking about extremely low levels of play for TF2, and some of what you're saying just makes no sense. You are very rarely approaching 100% of your potential damage unless you're a Heavy at mid range or trying to use Shotguns from across the map.
Try Soldier, Scout, Sniper, and nades-only Demoman if you want to see aim in action.
<!--QuoteBegin-CowThing+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CowThing)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Making a game easy for new players doesn't mean it'll not be fun for everyone. Look at Team Fortress 2, it's fairly easy to jump in and get some kills, yet even the most experienced players still have fun with it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, public TF2 can be practically unbearable for good players simply because if you're stuck on a bad team there's very little that you personally can do about it. Many "serious" games never even gave it a try, and entire teams ragequit out of the early seasons of competition because of stupid crap like random crits.
<!--quoteo(post=1759183:date=Mar 13 2010, 11:30 PM:name=Voyager I)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Voyager I @ Mar 13 2010, 11:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759183"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually, public TF2 can be practically unbearable for good players simply because if you're stuck on a bad team there's very little that you personally can do about it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Maybe on a 32 server, but anything smaller then that I disagree.
<!--quoteo(post=1759184:date=Mar 13 2010, 08:40 AM:name=steppin'razor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (steppin'razor @ Mar 13 2010, 08:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759184"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe on a 32 server, but anything smaller then that I disagree.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree, I usually play on 24-man or less servers and it usually isn't a bunch of spamming noobs. Maybe it's just me but I rarely leave a server if my team is losing, because that will only make them lose more. I'd rather stay and fight until we do win.
When I first played NS everyone thought I was dying on purpose, and there was really nothing I could do. I tried defending the hive instead of attacking but I kept dying there too. I ended up just going gorge and healing everything I saw. On the Marine team I had a similar problem. The game should be easy to learn, but hard to master.
nadyliJoin Date: 2007-11-01Member: 62791Members, Squad Five Blue
In case someone hasn't already noticed tons of the messages floating around here, the only thing making ns1 hard to learn at the moment is very small player base, most of the players have played the game more than 1-4 years. This will get fixed when we get lots and lots of new players.
The game is hard to learn, not only that but playing NS1 is a highly perishable skill. Stop playing for a year and trying to pick it up against is like starting from square one.
<!--quoteo(post=1759241:date=Mar 14 2010, 12:54 AM:name=Sops)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sops @ Mar 14 2010, 12:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759241"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The game is hard to learn, not only that but playing NS1 is a highly perishable skill. Stop playing for a year and trying to pick it up against is like starting from square one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thats not true, couple days max week. Its just people arent really learning or just thinking some random event that leads to their mass kill is "skill".
<!--quoteo(post=1759067:date=Mar 12 2010, 02:20 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Mar 12 2010, 02:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759067"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Theres no knockback, ever consired that the marine > skulk and vice-versa if the marine dies. Awareness and predicting are part of the odd thing known as skill. Also if something should always happen why bother playing at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is knockback
It's lead to my skulk dying several thousand times
<!--quoteo(post=1759184:date=Mar 13 2010, 02:40 PM:name=steppin'razor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (steppin'razor @ Mar 13 2010, 02:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759184"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe on a 32 server, but anything smaller then that I disagree.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Depends on the teams. 32 man fast spawn is pointless unless your idea of fun is shooting explosions at doorways, but any server can be awful if your team is making no effort to actually work together or not get rolled. If you have no Medics, chances are pretty good you're in for one of "those" rounds.
<!--quoteo(post=1759183:date=Mar 13 2010, 01:30 PM:name=Voyager I)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Voyager I @ Mar 13 2010, 01:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759183"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Umm...I'm not trying to give you a hard time here, but it sounds like you're talking about extremely low levels of play for TF2, and some of what you're saying just makes no sense. You are very rarely approaching 100% of your potential damage unless you're a Heavy at mid range or trying to use Shotguns from across the map.
Try Soldier, Scout, Sniper, and nades-only Demoman if you want to see aim in action.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Demo and soldier have massive splash damage, you do loads of damage by just spamming. The only class that requires the kind of aim you get in most FPS games is the sniper, everything else has a huge spread or large explosions.
<!--quoteo(post=1759272:date=Mar 14 2010, 01:13 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Mar 14 2010, 01:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759272"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Demo and soldier have massive splash damage, you do loads of damage by just spamming. The only class that requires the kind of aim you get in most FPS games is the sniper, everything else has a huge spread or large explosions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not saying that TF2's up there with Quake in terms of aim, but it's not nearly as simple as you're suggesting. The Soldier and Demo in particular are easy classes to do well with, but still have a good deal of depth. The difference between shooting near somebody for 70 damage and hitting them right in the feet for 90+ can easily decide encounter. It's also not as easy to accomplish this as you seem to think. For example, the Direct Hit can kill Scouts in one shot, but amongst competitive players it's considered to be weaker against Scouts because it's so much harder to hit them without the Rocket Launcher's splash damage. If it was really so trivial to score perfect damage with your weapons, surely the best Soldiers in the game wouldn't have this problem.
You're completely overlooking Scouts, one of the most demanding classes, and from your Sniper comment it sounds like you don't really understand the game.
I actually spend almost all my time playing Medic. Being a good Medic involves readings your teammates. You gotta stay close, but not too close, dodge damage, use your teammate as the meat shield, and know when you should just run away and save your Uber charges. Not to mention prioritizing who gets heals in a massive firefight.
<!--quoteo(post=1759388:date=Mar 15 2010, 01:41 AM:name=Seker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Seker @ Mar 15 2010, 01:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759388"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm pretty sure every comp. player uses that too... so whyever it has been added.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The same reason aliens got flashlight dumbing down for pubbers.
<!--quoteo(post=1759401:date=Mar 15 2010, 12:24 AM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Mar 15 2010, 12:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759401"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The same reason aliens got flashlight dumbing down for pubbers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see what's so bad about +movement. All it does is make the game more intuitive. You should be fighting your opponents and limited by your abilities, not your interface.
Personally, I agree that NS2 should be made more accessible to new players. However, they should do that by giving new players a role other than cannon fodder while they're honing their skills and making progression as intuitive as possible, not limiting the potential of good players.
<!--quoteo(post=1759409:date=Mar 15 2010, 04:13 AM:name=Voyager I)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Voyager I @ Mar 15 2010, 04:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759409"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't see what's so bad about +movement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nothing, but I had no problem with swapping between swipe and blink.
<!--quoteo(post=1759409:date=Mar 14 2010, 06:13 PM:name=Voyager I)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Voyager I @ Mar 14 2010, 06:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759409"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You should be fighting your opponents and limited by your abilities, not your interface.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
QFT.
While I also got used to blink+swipe (even without weapon_fastswitch) I think the +movement change was a good thing. Made life much easier for newbies without obstructing gameplay and skill. Although it made it more sticky instead of tapping blink I had to now hold it for 0.5 seconds to get to top flying speed. Oh well.
I could do blinkswipemeta nearly flawlessly when I was active. Still, now that I've got +movement, I can do it without putting huge amount of time into pure mechanics and I can do fading better with lag, fps drops, cold hands and so on.
The 'stickiness' of blink has nothing to do with the +movement, they just reduced the rate of fire in the same version they added +movement.
Alien flashlight is nice too, I won't need that high gamma on aliens to snap those parasites right into target. Marine tracking is still problematic here and there due to darkness, but I can live with it. I can sure get gammapanel if it gets too annoying even in my present activity.
<!--quoteo(post=1759440:date=Mar 15 2010, 12:26 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Mar 15 2010, 12:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759440"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The 'stickiness' of blink has nothing to do with the +movement, they just reduced the rate of fire in the same version they added +movement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah I know. It's just I used to click to blink across a room, now I have to actually manage acceleration. Heck, if anything it's made the skill ceiling higher instead of just fast fingers doing reflexive weapon swapping.
<!--quoteo(post=1759506:date=Mar 15 2010, 10:08 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Mar 15 2010, 10:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759506"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah I know. It's just I used to click to blink across a room, now I have to actually manage acceleration. Heck, if anything it's made the skill ceiling higher instead of just fast fingers doing reflexive weapon swapping.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> From pure mechanical skill viewpoint it cut down the speed and some options (Those 3.0 top fades were insane), but I think the overall effect was all positive even for the skill factor. Now fades actually need those skulks in below top level 6v6. Earlier it was enough to have one decent lerk and fade, now you need actually 6 players to win those rounds.
<!--quoteo(post=1759440:date=Mar 15 2010, 01:26 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Mar 15 2010, 01:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759440"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I could do blinkswipemeta nearly flawlessly when I was active. Still, now that I've got +movement, I can do it without putting huge amount of time into pure mechanics and I can do fading better with lag, fps drops, cold hands and so on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I did a lot of button mashing while comp. fading, but afterwards I created a solution that is better than +movement: Simply create a script that switches and activates metab, then on release switch back to swipe after switching blink to lastinv. Now you have swipe active with blink in lastinv, whereas +movement always destroyed my lastinv.
<!--quoteo(post=1759555:date=Mar 15 2010, 10:49 PM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Mar 15 2010, 10:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759555"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I did a lot of button mashing while comp. fading, but afterwards I created a solution that is better than +movement: Simply create a script that switches and activates metab, then on release switch back to swipe after switching blink to lastinv. Now you have swipe active with blink in lastinv, whereas +movement always destroyed my lastinv.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You've forgotten script blocking which is why there was a need for +movement in the first place. ;)
I did it both ways (actually, 3 ways since I first learned w/o quickswitch on). +Movement was a huge benefit to the game.
As for original post, I think it's just a matter of coming into a game where the only people left are super-veterans.
<!--quoteo(post=1760248:date=Mar 20 2010, 07:41 AM:name=Ahnteis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ahnteis @ Mar 20 2010, 07:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1760248"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for original post, I think it's just a matter of coming into a game where the only people left are super-veterans.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's not completely just being new. Right now NS has the tools to become a lot easier, but they aren't used as the default options. You'll need to rebind +movement to mouse2, change your crosshairs, change hud_fastswitch to 1, change cl_musicenabled to 0, either script or mwheel the jump timing and so on. Binding 'need medpack' and 'need welding' to useful buttons doesn't hurt one bit either.
<!--quoteo(post=1760248:date=Mar 20 2010, 01:41 AM:name=Ahnteis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ahnteis @ Mar 20 2010, 01:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1760248"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You've forgotten script blocking which is why there was a need for +movement in the first place. ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not really, comp/pug matches never used bs 1 and any server that did was not worth my time, and probably some joke pub server full of amx aids.
Comments
Knockback was significantly removed since 3.0. Furthermore a lvl1 marine or most CAL rines can kill a skulk <b>point blank</b> before it has a chance to land the killing bite. Claiming that a skulk should win in a "1v1 skulk vs marine" shows a poor understanding of NS gameplay. Such a scenerio was never intended to be in a skulks favour if the marine has even a shred of skill. A trap laid by a single skulk <b>is no such trap at all</b>. A single skulk is trivial to kill while attempting to ambush from a stationary spot. The only way you can even hope to take down a CAL rine with a single CAL skulk is to perform a long-winded celerity bhop in which your glide caries you to the target faster than he can discern your footsteps.
This is the beauty in disparity that glorified NS1 gameplay - every class slightly trumped the other with none being "1-to-1" equal: skulk < vanilla rine < lerk < lvl1 rine < fade and so forth. You talk of forced team work? NS1 coerced skulk teamwork in that you could rambo rine, but you could not much effectively "rambo skulk". However this was again masterfully countered by forcing marine teamwork by requiring dependency on a central command structure, a burden the kharaa team did not suffer. These subtleties of NS gameplay that most people never see and never get has me weeping for NS2, that such humble yet profound parries will be destroyed by a parallel command structure.
Oh 'lo hold high the noob - lest he rage quit without knowledge of why or whence; we must speed his mastering of skill so shallow it could scarcely drown a louse.
Put some effort, check guides, get to competitive and you'll be owning public in no time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Making a game easy for new players doesn't mean it'll not be fun for everyone. Look at Team Fortress 2, it's fairly easy to jump in and get some kills, yet even the most experienced players still have fun with it.
I downloaded NS1 a few days ago, I tried it around 2 years ago and found it hard to play. It's still pretty hard, even when I try to copy what other players are doing I get killed easy on both Marine and Alien teams.
TF2 is mostly fun because it has got a decent competetive scene. Meanwhile it doesn't provide that much fun in learning to understand the game and there aren't as many memorable game deciding moments and tough decisions as NS has.
So yes, if you like the pure competition, TF2 probably works for you. For a gamer like me who enjoys learning the details, experimenting with them and manipulating the flow through them, TF2 doesn't look all that inviting.
Ramboing is a high-risk, high-reward strat, there's no point removing it. Besides, true teamwork is when a lone marine ambushes an escaping fade from another marine group. Sticking together doesn't equal teamwork. I have personally made the biggest difference in NS games as a marine by ambushing the lerk or fade in the place it wasn't expecting me. This encourages clever thinking over raw aim.
Again, I think the problem on public should be solved by equal teams, not by removing skill elements. In other words, I think you are correct on identifying the problem, but you're trying to address the symptoms (skill elements) not the cause (inbalanced teams).
In TF2 you miss a lot but you miss a lot because the guns are inaccurate, you usually have close to perfect aim in the sense that your gun does close to 100% of the damage it can do at that range, but it also goes all over the place and doesn't do very much damage, even though that's the best it can do. The point is TF2 removes the need to aim on most of the classes. The TF2 heavy can't move faster than anything and it can't use any sort of finesse with its gun, but it can be very powerful when combined with intelligent use of a medic, as well as in similar situations to the pyro because the minigun does exactly the same thing the flamethrower does at close range.
All TF2 classes have is thoughtful positioning, attack patterns, and cooperation with support classes. The best way to play a heavy is to play it with a medic and use the heavy as a meat shield while at the same time, being aware of the limits of the heal gun. A good heavy medic combo will get a lot of kills and they only get that because they work together intelligently, they can't do anything else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Umm...I'm not trying to give you a hard time here, but it sounds like you're talking about extremely low levels of play for TF2, and some of what you're saying just makes no sense. You are very rarely approaching 100% of your potential damage unless you're a Heavy at mid range or trying to use Shotguns from across the map.
Try Soldier, Scout, Sniper, and nades-only Demoman if you want to see aim in action.
<!--QuoteBegin-CowThing+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CowThing)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Making a game easy for new players doesn't mean it'll not be fun for everyone. Look at Team Fortress 2, it's fairly easy to jump in and get some kills, yet even the most experienced players still have fun with it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, public TF2 can be practically unbearable for good players simply because if you're stuck on a bad team there's very little that you personally can do about it. Many "serious" games never even gave it a try, and entire teams ragequit out of the early seasons of competition because of stupid crap like random crits.
Maybe on a 32 server, but anything smaller then that I disagree.
I agree, I usually play on 24-man or less servers and it usually isn't a bunch of spamming noobs. Maybe it's just me but I rarely leave a server if my team is losing, because that will only make them lose more. I'd rather stay and fight until we do win.
When I first played NS everyone thought I was dying on purpose, and there was really nothing I could do. I tried defending the hive instead of attacking but I kept dying there too. I ended up just going gorge and healing everything I saw. On the Marine team I had a similar problem.
The game should be easy to learn, but hard to master.
Thats not true, couple days max week. Its just people arent really learning or just thinking some random event that leads to their mass kill is "skill".
Pro tip: get to competitive.
There is knockback
It's lead to my skulk dying several thousand times
Depends on the teams. 32 man fast spawn is pointless unless your idea of fun is shooting explosions at doorways, but any server can be awful if your team is making no effort to actually work together or not get rolled. If you have no Medics, chances are pretty good you're in for one of "those" rounds.
Try Soldier, Scout, Sniper, and nades-only Demoman if you want to see aim in action.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Demo and soldier have massive splash damage, you do loads of damage by just spamming. The only class that requires the kind of aim you get in most FPS games is the sniper, everything else has a huge spread or large explosions.
I'm not saying that TF2's up there with Quake in terms of aim, but it's not nearly as simple as you're suggesting. The Soldier and Demo in particular are easy classes to do well with, but still have a good deal of depth. The difference between shooting near somebody for 70 damage and hitting them right in the feet for 90+ can easily decide encounter. It's also not as easy to accomplish this as you seem to think. For example, the Direct Hit can kill Scouts in one shot, but amongst competitive players it's considered to be weaker against Scouts because it's so much harder to hit them without the Rocket Launcher's splash damage. If it was really so trivial to score perfect damage with your weapons, surely the best Soldiers in the game wouldn't have this problem.
You're completely overlooking Scouts, one of the most demanding classes, and from your Sniper comment it sounds like you don't really understand the game.
/sarcasm
I actually spend almost all my time playing Medic. Being a good Medic involves readings your teammates. You gotta stay close, but not too close, dodge damage, use your teammate as the meat shield, and know when you should just run away and save your Uber charges. Not to mention prioritizing who gets heals in a massive firefight.
2centsbai
The same reason aliens got flashlight dumbing down for pubbers.
I don't see what's so bad about +movement. All it does is make the game more intuitive. You should be fighting your opponents and limited by your abilities, not your interface.
Personally, I agree that NS2 should be made more accessible to new players. However, they should do that by giving new players a role other than cannon fodder while they're honing their skills and making progression as intuitive as possible, not limiting the potential of good players.
Nothing, but I had no problem with swapping between swipe and blink.
QFT.
While I also got used to blink+swipe (even without weapon_fastswitch) I think the +movement change was a good thing. Made life much easier for newbies without obstructing gameplay and skill. Although it made it more sticky instead of tapping blink I had to now hold it for 0.5 seconds to get to top flying speed. Oh well.
I could do blinkswipemeta nearly flawlessly when I was active. Still, now that I've got +movement, I can do it without putting huge amount of time into pure mechanics and I can do fading better with lag, fps drops, cold hands and so on.
The 'stickiness' of blink has nothing to do with the +movement, they just reduced the rate of fire in the same version they added +movement.
Alien flashlight is nice too, I won't need that high gamma on aliens to snap those parasites right into target. Marine tracking is still problematic here and there due to darkness, but I can live with it. I can sure get gammapanel if it gets too annoying even in my present activity.
Yeah I know. It's just I used to click to blink across a room, now I have to actually manage acceleration. Heck, if anything it's made the skill ceiling higher instead of just fast fingers doing reflexive weapon swapping.
From pure mechanical skill viewpoint it cut down the speed and some options (Those 3.0 top fades were insane), but I think the overall effect was all positive even for the skill factor. Now fades actually need those skulks in below top level 6v6. Earlier it was enough to have one decent lerk and fade, now you need actually 6 players to win those rounds.
I did a lot of button mashing while comp. fading, but afterwards I created a solution that is better than +movement:
Simply create a script that switches and activates metab, then on release switch back to swipe after switching blink to lastinv. Now you have swipe active with blink in lastinv, whereas +movement always destroyed my lastinv.
Simply create a script that switches and activates metab, then on release switch back to swipe after switching blink to lastinv. Now you have swipe active with blink in lastinv, whereas +movement always destroyed my lastinv.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You've forgotten script blocking which is why there was a need for +movement in the first place. ;)
I did it both ways (actually, 3 ways since I first learned w/o quickswitch on). +Movement was a huge benefit to the game.
As for original post, I think it's just a matter of coming into a game where the only people left are super-veterans.
It's not completely just being new. Right now NS has the tools to become a lot easier, but they aren't used as the default options. You'll need to rebind +movement to mouse2, change your crosshairs, change hud_fastswitch to 1, change cl_musicenabled to 0, either script or mwheel the jump timing and so on. Binding 'need medpack' and 'need welding' to useful buttons doesn't hurt one bit either.
Not really, comp/pug matches never used bs 1 and any server that did was not worth my time, and probably some joke pub server full of amx aids.