<!--quoteo(post=1745553:date=Jan 3 2010, 02:48 PM:name=MaDMaxX)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MaDMaxX @ Jan 3 2010, 02:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745553"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->See here for what it's actually going to be;
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/about/" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/about/</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Great point, that. As in, working with what we do know for sure.
And we know very little so far... Well, I assume you'd know more, of course. ;)
<!--quoteo(post=1745553:date=Jan 3 2010, 02:48 PM:name=MaDMaxX)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MaDMaxX @ Jan 3 2010, 02:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745553"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think you both need to calm down and stop trying to reply/compete with one another.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry if it's polluting the discussion, I'm trying my best to be civil here.
<!--quoteo(post=1745557:date=Jan 3 2010, 08:20 AM:name=Draco_2k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Draco_2k @ Jan 3 2010, 08:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745557"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry if it's polluting the discussion, I'm trying my best to be civil here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> flame wars such as that usually don't need civility, it needs ignoring, just ignore the people that annoy you, it's not like responding made anything better
as for what I expect NS2 to be, I think it will be one of the few games that will listen to the community during a very long beta, meaning that the game will be somewhat dulled to please a lot of people, but will still be a great game to play (I think they will keep iterating till it is great, but I don't expect it to be that good at release)
<!--quoteo(post=1745560:date=Jan 3 2010, 05:04 PM:name=Biglines)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Biglines @ Jan 3 2010, 05:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745560"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->flame wars such as that usually don't need civility, it needs ignoring, just ignore the people that annoy you, it's not like responding made anything better<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I guess that's how it'll have to be. Suppose I should know better than giving people a chance...
<!--quoteo(post=1745560:date=Jan 3 2010, 05:04 PM:name=Biglines)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Biglines @ Jan 3 2010, 05:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745560"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->as for what I expect NS2 to be, I think it will be one of the few games that will listen to the community during a very long beta, meaning that the game will be somewhat dulled to please a lot of people, but will still be a great game to play (I think they will keep iterating till it is great, but I don't expect it to be that good at release)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I sincerely hope this won't happen. The abandoning of the taser gun along these lines was rather disheartening, that thing sounded rad... Well, to me among the minority, of course.
I'm not sure if it's a good or a bad thing. If I had to guess I'd say it all depends on actual execution more than listening to the community or not.
<!--quoteo(post=1745565:date=Jan 3 2010, 10:38 AM:name=Draco_2k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Draco_2k @ Jan 3 2010, 10:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745565"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I guess that's how it'll have to be. Suppose I should know better than giving people a chance...
I sincerely hope this won't happen. The abandoning of the taser gun along these lines was rather disheartening, that thing sounded rad... Well, to me among the minority, of course.
I'm not sure if it's a good or a bad thing. If I had to guess I'd say it all depends on actual execution more than listening to the community or not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think a lot of stuff was cut (amongst which the taser) because it would take too long to implement and they didn't have enough funding at the time (I think the heavy/exo was actually cut until they got the huge bonus of all the pre-orders)
I don't particularly like the total modding capability of the game, it will lead to hardly anyone playing vanilla ns as UWE meant it, and splintering an already small community into even smaller sections of people who don't like one particular feature which they fix for their particular 3 people in a small mod. the server sided mods in ns were bad enough already, imagine every single community having their own small mod
<!--quoteo(post=1745566:date=Jan 3 2010, 05:44 PM:name=Biglines)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Biglines @ Jan 3 2010, 05:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745566"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think a lot of stuff was cut (amongst which the taser) because it would take too long to implement and they didn't have enough funding at the time<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If I remember correctly, the taser was cut because of overwhelming negative feedback from the community. Maybe it's still on Twitter if it's the case, that thing is a pain to search though.
<!--quoteo(post=1745566:date=Jan 3 2010, 05:44 PM:name=Biglines)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Biglines @ Jan 3 2010, 05:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745566"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(I think the heavy/exo was actually cut until they got the huge bonus of all the pre-orders)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This sounds about right, yes.
<!--quoteo(post=1745566:date=Jan 3 2010, 05:44 PM:name=Biglines)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Biglines @ Jan 3 2010, 05:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745566"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't particularly like the total modding capability of the game, it will lead to hardly anyone playing vanilla ns as UWE meant it, and splintering an already small community into even smaller sections of people who don't like one particular feature which they fix for their particular 3 people in a small mod. the server sided mods in ns were bad enough already, imagine every single community having their own small mod<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I hate it when this happens. In my experience though, it happens less because of the community vote and more because of server administrators trying to be unique, noticeable or just personal. A properly good search functionality for the server browser might alleviate that - at least if my theory is correct - and that's very much planned so far.
To be honest, I don't know what to expect anymore. A lot of updates seem to contradict my idea of enjoyable NS, but then again the dev team clearly recognize the more hardcore playing style and pay attention to it on the development.
I guess I'll expect NS2 to be a fun FPS game that keeps me interested for a few months at least. Obviously I hope it to be similar awesomeness as NS was for me, but that's most likely next to impossible while the present 'casual gaming' wave includes so many nuances and directions I dislike.
<!--quoteo(post=1745570:date=Jan 3 2010, 06:14 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jan 3 2010, 06:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745570"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Obviously I hope it to be similar awesomeness as NS was for me, but that's most likely next to impossible while the present 'casual gaming' wave includes so many nuances and directions I dislike.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> We'll often confuse bad implementations for bad directions if we first see the former once too often. I know this from personal experience, too...
Think radial menus in L4D: they were mostly decried as console-ish and clunky and dumbed down because of the amount of times they were done wrong before, but in practice they turned out to be a big improvement over the two-stroke menus. That is, conveniently forgetting BF2's very workable implementation ages before.
(Sorry if it's too obscure, can't think of anything else at the moment.)
Similarly, "casual trends" can mean outright removal of depth as well as better approach to the skill curve. So far it sounds to me NS2 team is going for the latter.
I'm expecting to feel nostalgia when I first enter and seem many of the same elements, but then get immersed in a more visually appealing and different style of gameplay from the NS I know and love... hopefully a better style of play that offers a high skill ceiling and hours long epic battles as well as short, decisive games.
I mostly want NS2 to preserve the possibility of many legitimate strategies, not just shut it down to 2 or 3 strict strategies that are clearly superior (NS may seem like this now, but there are really many possibilities that can be more effective than standard strats, it all depends on the plethora of factors NS offers in each scenario of every game)
<!--quoteo(post=1745581:date=Jan 3 2010, 12:13 PM:name=GaussWaffle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GaussWaffle @ Jan 3 2010, 12:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745581"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I mostly want NS2 to preserve the possibility of many legitimate strategies, not just shut it down to 2 or 3 strict strategies that are clearly superior (NS may seem like this now, but there are really many possibilities that can be more effective than standard strats, it all depends on the plethora of factors NS offers in each scenario of every game)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The penalties for losing a power node seem so extreme that losing one cannot be an option past several minutes into the game. Combine this with the fact that the maps are more streamlined and simple, with UWE using TF2 for inspiration, and I think it's all but certain that "shut it down" or "lock it down" will be the main strategy.
<!--quoteo(post=1745481:date=Jan 2 2010, 03:34 PM:name=Draco_2k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Draco_2k @ Jan 2 2010, 03:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745481"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I find it hard to be either excited or upset about such things, because you generally just can't know whether or not they'll work until you see them in-game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not that I was upset about the taser or auto-leap jump per se, I was upset that the developers actually thought these ideas were good. There were a lot of nuances in NS1 that made the skill curve vast and there was so much to master. At the time I thought Flayra really knew how to make a game but now I'm questioning if he lucked out because the HL1 engine was used. Don't get me wrong, I know Max and especially Charlie and Cory are veterans in the industry and I respect what they're doing with UWE as a whole. I just feel like NS2 is headed in a direction where addicting features like movement skill are never even considered and I don't like that. Obviously I know not everyone shares my vision of NS2 (I would assume those who do would be labeled "competitive players") but I hope NS1's greatness isn't lost on NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=1745577:date=Jan 3 2010, 05:26 PM:name=Draco_2k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Draco_2k @ Jan 3 2010, 05:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745577"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Similarly, "casual trends" can mean outright removal of depth as well as better approach to the skill curve. So far it sounds to me NS2 team is going for the latter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It depends a bit. I want the game to throw me a challenge and force me to cope with it. Meanwhile most games nowadays avoid creating situations where you just have to live by some new rules or you're forced to adapt your thinking.
For example the teammate blocking is usually removed from present games. On the other hand it removes some frustrating moments, but it also removes factors like how a team can enter and exit a room without risking the precious lifeforms. Once a team manages to create a fluent coordination without any blocking mistakes, the whole teamwork and game flow becomes a lot more rewarding. There's certain exitement in the air when everything is going smoothly.
A lot of similar stuff goes to commanding. I want to get baserushed, I want to hop out at a wrong time and feel angry at myself because of such defeat. Once you make the right decisions and survive a tough round, it feels like you've achieved something.
In most of the present games you never get punished too hard for mistakes and there's never an overwhelming amount of action and factors going on. That's why most present games feel a little indifferent to me when you compare them to games like NS and Starcraft.
Honestly the word "casual" resembles "bad" more every day. Effort shouldn't be shunned so much. I guess the biggest problem with it is that there is so much effort to be taken in so many things and the majority of them is not worth it.
The guessing game ended with a flame war in the first page, so instead I'll share my hope: What I hope/hoped NS2 to be is NS1 in a new skin, with a devout, small but zealous community that would take the effort of telling everyone what a great game it is, leading to the triumph of NS2. ...it's not THAT ludicrous, people do weight gamers opinions more than a flashy campaign. ...well except the gullible casuals: aaand we're back at root of the problem.
Updated survey results. I think it should resemble a credible sample now.
<!--quoteo(post=1745584:date=Jan 3 2010, 08:43 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Jan 3 2010, 08:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745584"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The penalties for losing a power node seem so extreme that losing one cannot be an option past several minutes into the game. Combine this with the fact that the maps are more streamlined and simple, with UWE using TF2 for inspiration, and I think it's all but certain that "shut it down" or "lock it down" will be the main strategy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Considering UW want the game to be as changing as possible, I don't think that's something they would go for, at least intentionally.
<!--quoteo(post=1745584:date=Jan 3 2010, 08:43 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Jan 3 2010, 08:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745584"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's not that I was upset about the taser or auto-leap jump per se, I was upset that the developers actually thought these ideas were good. There were a lot of nuances in NS1 that made the skill curve vast and there was so much to master. At the time I thought Flayra really knew how to make a game but now I'm questioning if he lucked out because the HL1 engine was used. Don't get me wrong, I know Max and especially Charlie and Cory are veterans in the industry and I respect what they're doing with UWE as a whole. I just feel like NS2 is headed in a direction where addicting features like movement skill are never even considered and I don't like that. Obviously I know not everyone shares my vision of NS2 (I would assume those who do would be labeled "competitive players") but I hope NS1's greatness isn't lost on NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The problem here is that you're judging a game we know virtually nothing about by very few very minor aspects. We just don't know how much has truly changed since NS1. It's a bit too early to get upset. (I still have no clue how can anyone consider taser a bad idea...)
"Movement skill" (bunny-hopping, I assume) is a detrimental feature: it's what you'd call a hidden perk, something that is simply never obvious to newcomers, it simply ensures a large skill gap between the players and, hence, unbalanced games. It's not a skill per se, it's simply a secret, and a routine. As much as it's part of gaming tradition, it's just not good gameplay.
It's easy to get false impression it's a skill because it's something you have to do, and it gives you an advantage in-game. But this advantage only applies to people who don't know about it, and what you're doing is repeating once-learned mouse flicks, not reacting to the situation by it's merits. This would be amountable to having to press three buttons to jump instead of one: it's just a hurdle.
...Ahem...
Of course, there are others ways to add what would much better resemble "movement skill" as in adding momentum to player's movements. But that's more applicable in Q3/UT, where you flying all over the place is mandatory.
<!--quoteo(post=1745588:date=Jan 3 2010, 09:33 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jan 3 2010, 09:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745588"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It depends a bit. I want the game to throw me a challenge and force me to cope with it. Meanwhile most games nowadays avoid creating situations where you just have to live by some new rules or you're forced to adapt your thinking.
For example the teammate blocking is usually removed from present games. On the other hand it removes some frustrating moments, but it also removes factors like how a team can enter and exit a room without risking the precious lifeforms. Once a team manages to create a fluent coordination without any blocking mistakes, the whole teamwork and game flow becomes a lot more rewarding. There's certain exitement in the air when everything is going smoothly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think things like these are rather what you'd call "sacrifices", where the payoff for implementing or removing something just isn't high enough to outbalance player frustration. Backpedalling into your teammate when you're looking for cover is not a good thing on any level of play...
I think this is a very gray area here. I'm still having trouble seeing the difference between "challenging" and "adapting", per se.
<!--quoteo(post=1745614:date=Jan 4 2010, 02:59 AM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ Jan 4 2010, 02:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745614"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly the word "casual" resembles "bad" more every day.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's understandable: because most games that are released are casual, and because most of the games that are released are ######. We just easily equate correlation with causation, which is actually a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation" target="_blank">no-no</a>. "Casual" doesn't really mean "dumbed down", it means "accessible".
<!--quoteo(post=1745614:date=Jan 4 2010, 02:59 AM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ Jan 4 2010, 02:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745614"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The guessing game ended with a flame war in the first page, so instead I'll share my hope: What I hope/hoped NS2 to be is NS1 in a new skin, with a devout, small but zealous community that would take the effort of telling everyone what a great game it is, leading to the triumph of NS2. ...it's not THAT ludicrous, people do weight gamers opinions more than a flashy campaign. ...well except the gullible casuals: aaand we're back at root of the problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Goddamit, you actually made my eyes water... This is what every Unreal fan wanted UT3 to be.
but "accessible" increasingly lends itself to being "easier to pick up" and then "easier to play/manage," and before you know it, you're on a track which has a new player able to perform nearly as effective (if not the same) as a "veteren" player, if you will. In the end isn't that all what the idea of "accessible" is? You can get to "that plateu" "easier," thus being inverse with "effort", practice, skill, what have you. The newer/casual player says "I want to perform just as good with less effort/time," because they're casual, casually playing the game, because they don't have the interest/time/dedication/skill, etc.
It can be re-worded any way people like, but it still means making the game in a fashion to where there is less of a gap between Player A :"experienced" or "skilled," and Player B: newer and inexperienced (or just clueless/skill-less ie poor dexterity and hand eye coordination, etc), which essentially removes depth and lowers the skill ceiling of the game, crunching those two ranging extremes of players closer together.
<!--quoteo(post=1745584:date=Jan 3 2010, 09:43 AM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Jan 3 2010, 09:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745584"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The penalties for losing a power node seem so extreme that losing one cannot be an option past several minutes into the game. Combine this with the fact that the maps are more streamlined and simple, with UWE using TF2 for inspiration, and I think it's all but certain that "shut it down" or "lock it down" will be the main strategy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never said I liked their current way they're going about the possible strategies, I'm just saying what I expect them to present when it's time
And ya, that's what It's currently looking like to me as well
<!--quoteo(post=1745629:date=Jan 4 2010, 04:39 AM:name=PSA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PSA @ Jan 4 2010, 04:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745629"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but "accessible" increasingly lends itself to being "easier to pick up" and then "easier to play/manage," and before you know it, you're on a track which has a new player able to perform nearly as effective (if not the same) as a "veteren" player, if you will.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's what you see, due to bad implementation. The general idea behind good skill curves is that newcomers will indeed be able to perform like experienced players given time and practice within the game itself (no looking up counter-intuitive tricks and strategies, that is), while still maintaining depth to gameplay itself. This has little to do with being "casual" or "pro" in itself, but with good gameplay design.
I believe Blizzard are going to great lengths in this with StarCraft 2 with Campaign being one giant Tutorial for battle strategies, challenges that explain resource management, micro's, so on...
<!--quoteo(post=1745629:date=Jan 4 2010, 04:39 AM:name=PSA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PSA @ Jan 4 2010, 04:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745629"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It can be re-worded any way people like, but it still means making the game in a fashion to where there is less of a gap between Player A :"experienced" or "skilled," and Player B: newer and inexperienced (or just clueless/skill-less ie poor dexterity and hand eye coordination, etc), which essentially removes depth and lowers the skill ceiling of the game, crunching those two ranging extremes of players closer together.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The idea is not having the gap itself, but what fills that gap: something that you can learn in-game, or something that you'd never do otherwise. I.e. any player can learn to rocket-juggle in any game, but you just can't do the same with bunny-hopping or conc-jumping - the latter fill the skill gap with obscurity rather than skill itself.
Unless UWE is a team of genius never seen before (no, really), I doubt they're going to make any amazing discoveries on how to "fill the gap" in any other way than the current style of "bad implementation" you mention. Yes, its bad, and I'm glad we agree on that, but unless you or UWE have any other amazing ideas (that they would actually take the time and resources to implement), then thats HOW it gets implemented: "bad." Its easy to say "well yeah those OTHER games are bad. They're just doing it wrong. They need to do it right!" and then stopping there.
And Star Craft 2 having "one giant tutorial" explaining the finer aspects such as hotkeys, micro/macro management, resource managment, etc, is one completely different thing than implementing a system which cuts out (or dumbs down, or streamlines, take your pick) any of the above meta-games/gameplay features which add depth. This is exactly what happens in most games though, especially speaking in terms of FPS as of late.
Its great to use SC2 as an example and all, because Blizzard has done a stellar job up until now, but SC is really in a different catagory, because the game is not restricted to online play, and it does NOT force you to play against other players 24/7, including those amazing Korean pros and otherwise. I garuantee that if it did, as in, if the only game play model for the game was to play against other players, potentially pitting you against so called "pros" every time without your "consent" persay, then things would be MUCH different. Fortunately, they're able to get around that by having small game-sizes, choice of who you play against, or just sticking to Computer opponents or the campaign.
Doesn't work like that here. You join a server, theres 20 other players, and theres a possibility two or three of them are way better than you and you aren't going to have a chance against them. Honestly, thats tough, but hey, its how it should be.
Also, by your reckoning, does it mean that its ok to include features like bunny-hopping and conc-jumping into the game if the game-designers explicitly state in-game that it exists and how to do it? If so then, hey, I just figured out the solution for you right there.
<!--quoteo(post=1745632:date=Jan 4 2010, 05:31 AM:name=PSA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PSA @ Jan 4 2010, 05:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745632"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Unless UWE is a team of genius never seen before (no, really)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> They are. Absolutely.
<!--quoteo(post=1745632:date=Jan 4 2010, 05:31 AM:name=PSA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PSA @ Jan 4 2010, 05:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745632"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I doubt they're going to make any amazing discoveries on how to "fill the gap" in any other way than the current style of "bad implementation" you mention.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> They have to, and they directly said they work with that premise in mind. What I'm talking about is simply good game design: "Easy to learn, hard to master."
<!--quoteo(post=1745632:date=Jan 4 2010, 05:31 AM:name=PSA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PSA @ Jan 4 2010, 05:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745632"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its easy to say "well yeah those OTHER games are bad. They're just doing it wrong. They need to do it right!" and then stopping there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, it is easy. It's no rocket science: skill curves lie are the backbone of game design. If you have a bad skill curve, you're just not doing it right.
<!--quoteo(post=1745632:date=Jan 4 2010, 05:31 AM:name=PSA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PSA @ Jan 4 2010, 05:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745632"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And Star Craft 2 having "one giant tutorial" explaining the finer aspects such as hotkeys, micro/macro management, resource managment, etc, is one completely different thing than implementing a system which cuts out (or dumbs down, or streamlines, take your pick) any of the above meta-games/gameplay features which add depth.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Which was the point of the example: making the game more intuitive without cutting down it's diversity. Say, Left 4 Dead also does this with it's hint system, which is a hell of a lot more fluid. The point is, it's possible.
<!--quoteo(post=1745632:date=Jan 4 2010, 05:31 AM:name=PSA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PSA @ Jan 4 2010, 05:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745632"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Doesn't work like that here. You join a server, theres 20 other players, and theres a possibility two or three of them are way better than you and you aren't going to have a chance against them. Honestly, thats tough, but hey, its how it should be.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> How it's been, not how it should be. Tradition doesn't make a right: the gaming would never be as big as it is today if developers continued to treat their players like sworn enemies. Frankly, this is just impolite.
Alienating newcomers is generally a sure-fire way to kill any game. Doesn't matter how good you are at it when you're sitting on the server all alone. And, personally, I sure as hell wouldn't want to be there sharing it with whomever is left... I've already seen one too many of my favourite games die that way, too.
<!--quoteo(post=1745632:date=Jan 4 2010, 05:31 AM:name=PSA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PSA @ Jan 4 2010, 05:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745632"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, by your reckoning, does it mean that its ok to include features like bunny-hopping and conc-jumping into the game if the game-designers explicitly state in-game that it exists and how to do it? If so then, hey, I just figured out the solution for you right there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not really. Neither of those things really contributes to skill or gameplay per se, it only adds a learning hurdle. If you want to give players freedom of movement, you're better off searching for another method, the one that would have an actual response curve to it (E.g. Jetpacks in Tribes/Global Agenda).
As in, it's easy to mistake bhopping/conc for a skill because it enables momentum-based gameplay in some games, but that much can be implemented in player movement itself if it's actually desired. Most people I see clinging to such things nowadays simply do so because without it they turn out to be hardly any better than your average Joe in terms of aiming, coordination and other things that can be and are learned through gameplay.
(I'm not accusing you of any of that, in case it sounds like it.)
I'm expecting it to be at minimum like Doom3 in the graphics department. Screenshots already indicate this will be it more or less (maybe NS2 will be more blocky like NS1).
Wish maps could be limitless like Crysis... and i want a dropship / jeep!!! like was promised once!!!
<!--quoteo(post=1745636:date=Jan 4 2010, 07:12 AM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Jan 4 2010, 07:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745636"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm expecting it to be at minimum like Doom3 in the graphics department.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> NS2 kicks Doom's <b>ASS</b>.
<!--quoteo(post=1745636:date=Jan 4 2010, 07:12 AM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Jan 4 2010, 07:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745636"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wish maps could be limitless like Crysis... and i want a dropship / jeep!!! like was promised once!!!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oi. When did that happen?..
I'm not entirely against removing bhoping or the like, because I see where it fits in with your argument, and you make sense there, yes.
And I guess its cool that you have such amazing blind faith in UWE to do what few or no other game developers have done in order to fix this "gap" we're talking about (which I'm not entirely sure is THAT bad, although it could use some attention). I really hope you're right, and I'm in no way in the camp which has negative expectations for this game. On the contrary, I'm still excited for a good, solid, game. But I'm not without my reservations or fears about how far they choose to "level the playing field" for players in regards to the skill gap, along with what will come as a result. I'm still not convinced that "filling the gap" or "doing it right" is nearly as easy or simple as you make it out to be. History is on my side. I wish it weren't.
I'm also all for an indepth tutorial or tip system, of course, to alleviate some of these problems. Also, I'm sure you didn't quite mean it like this, but bringing up Left4Dead is a really, really bad example. I believe that game is a clear cut example of what many people in the community FEAR will happen to Natural Selection 2. Its not hard. Gameplay is simple, streamlined, not deep. Repetitive. Accessible to anyone. Bordering on brainless. Not competitive (the idea of any sort of competitive L4D is a joke in my opinion). Its meant to pick up, "pew pew pew pew zombies! ok I'm done." People like it because they can pick up a gun and point it at another player (or NPC, etc) and BOOM dead, without much diversity in the matter.
Another example is Team Fortress 2 (in my own opinion). Predictable model movement (90% of the time), wide spread/splash damage weapons, point at corners or chokepoints and spam. Anyone can do it! And well! Simple, straight forward, easy to pick up, easy to play gameplay. Its not a terrible game by any means, but sending Natural Selection 2 in the direction of TF2 (Or L4D) will remove the flavor, uniqueness, depth and creativity which made NS such a great game in the first place.
I don't want to abandon new players or leave them out in the cold, but for how long do you need to hold someones hand, especially when it can be potentially detrimental to depth of gameplay? Put in features or roles that newer players can use/fill, give them an extensive tutorial and tips, but in the end a player should ultimately NOT be rewarded for NOT putting in effort. You either choose to put time into the game to get better, or you DON'T get better. Thats how everything works in life. Thats competition. Etc etc.
<!--quoteo(post=1745626:date=Jan 3 2010, 05:15 PM:name=Draco_2k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Draco_2k @ Jan 3 2010, 05:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745626"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"Movement skill" (bunny-hopping, I assume) is a detrimental feature: it's what you'd call a hidden perk, something that is simply never obvious to newcomers, it simply ensures a large skill gap between the players and, hence, unbalanced games. It's not a skill per se, it's simply a secret, and a routine. As much as it's part of gaming tradition, it's just not good gameplay.
It's easy to get false impression it's a skill because it's something you have to do, and it gives you an advantage in-game. But this advantage only applies to people who don't know about it, and what you're doing is repeating once-learned mouse flicks, not reacting to the situation by it's merits. This would be amountable to having to press three buttons to jump instead of one: it's just a hurdle.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
These two paragraphs tell me you don't know how to bunny hop, and have no idea what your talking about when it comes to bhop.
Bhop is not a wrote memorization task, some people are very good at it, so are bad. Applying it is very difficult, you have to fit your movement to the patterns need to gain speed using bhop. Also bhop effectively adds in the momentum you are talking about at the end of your post, because it takes a fair amount of time and space to get up to full speed while bhopping. So if you hit something, or go into combat incorrectly your at a huge disadvantage. because you are now moving slowly.
Just knowing how to bhop, gives you an edge over players who don't, but there is a huge variation in skill between one bhopper and the next. It takes a lot of coordination and concentration to bunny hop, it is hardly an on-off switch. You don't just know it and suddenly you can race around a map, over ramps, up stairs, etc at full speed. Also bhop really doesn't give that much of an advantage, a lot of the time its just that a better more dedicated players take the time to learn it, because it does in fact take a long time to learn and master the technique. So its hard to say how much of an advantage bhop confirms, because players who learn to bhop are often those that take the game much more seriously (play in leagues, practice for hours etc)
Also I wish people would stop trying to say this technique or that strat isn't a skill, or isn't skillfull. Here is the definition of skill in a gaming context. <b> Skill: "The ability for one player to consistently beat another through any means legal in the game system."</b> I think every one should be able to agree, that in the end that is what being skillful in a game means.
if "pressing three buttons to jump" confers an advantage over pressing 1 button to jump, being able to do that is a skill in that game. Arguably it is a skill that should be removed, because it is a very arbitrary. But maybe it adds a whole lot to the game in question? Game doesn't exist so it be hard to say :-)
As I see it, what your actually trying to say, is that execution based skill is arbitrary and should be removed from a game. When I say execution based skill, I mean the "the ability to press the buttons" better then another player. This would be things like aiming and strafing in an FPS. This is a dangerous statement to make. Where do you draw the line at what is a meaningful execution based skill and what isn't.
Last point. The fact that there is a large gap between experienced player who train and practice, and new players.... IS GOOD DESIGN. This means it is a good game of skill.
The problem is that Bhopping is always scripted nowawdays. So the new people can't come and learn this easily or it'll be a non effective bh. And yes, it gives an enourmous advantage, when you see marines moving faster than skulk, Gorges without Celerity faster than catalyst marines... That's not what the game was supposed to be, it's just kind of bug exploit, that people prefer to call "skill technique".
If i could decide of one thing on NS2 and only one : It would be to definitivly forbid scripts (Bh scripts, Pistol scripts, lerk scripts etc..) it's like to say "people who know a little about .config file configuration can have a free cheat !!" it's simply a non-sense for the gameplay.
I dont want to make the choice between : _takings hours to search tweak then apply them to the game in config files _not being competitive in league against tweakers.
<!--quoteo(post=1745648:date=Jan 3 2010, 09:20 PM:name=Katana-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Katana- @ Jan 3 2010, 09:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745648"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->These two paragraphs tell me you don't know how to bunny hop, and have no idea what your talking about when it comes to bhop.
Bhop is not a wrote memorization task, some people are very good at it, so are bad. Applying it is very difficult, you have to fit your movement to the patterns need to gain speed using bhop. Also bhop effectively adds in the momentum you are talking about at the end of your post, because it takes a fair amount of time and space to get up to full speed while bhopping. So if you hit something, or go into combat incorrectly your at a huge disadvantage. because you are now moving slowly.
Just knowing how to bhop, gives you an edge over players who don't, but there is a huge variation in skill between one bhopper and the next. It takes a lot of coordination and concentration to bunny hop, it is hardly an on-off switch. You don't just know it and suddenly you can race around a map, over ramps, up stairs, etc at full speed. Also bhop really doesn't give that much of an advantage, a lot of the time its just that a better more dedicated players take the time to learn it, because it does in fact take a long time to learn and master the technique. So its hard to say how much of an advantage bhop confirms, because players who learn to bhop are often those that take the game much more seriously (play in leagues, practice for hours etc)
Also I wish people would stop trying to say this technique or that strat isn't a skill, or isn't skillfull. Here is the definition of skill in a gaming context. <b> Skill: "The ability for one player to consistently beat another through any means legal in the game system."</b> I think every one should be able to agree, that in the end that is what being skillful in a game means.
if "pressing three buttons to jump" confers an advantage over pressing 1 button to jump, being able to do that is a skill in that game. Arguably it is a skill that should be removed, because it is a very arbitrary. But maybe it adds a whole lot to the game in question? Game doesn't exist so it be hard to say :-)
As I see it, what your actually trying to say, is that execution based skill is arbitrary and should be removed from a game. When I say execution based skill, I mean the "the ability to press the buttons" better then another player. This would be things like aiming and strafing in an FPS. This is a dangerous statement to make. Where do you draw the line at what is a meaningful execution based skill and what isn't.
Last point. The fact that there is a large gap between experienced player who train and practice, and new players.... IS GOOD DESIGN. This means it is a good game of skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
good post, read this
Any good Bhopper doesn't use a bhop script, it's mostly a launching pad for people who can't get the timing down
<!--quoteo(post=1745642:date=Jan 4 2010, 07:38 AM:name=PSA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PSA @ Jan 4 2010, 07:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745642"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not entirely against removing bhoping or the like, because I see where it fits in with your argument, and you make sense there, yes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I swear this is the first time anyone ever told me I make sense.
<!--quoteo(post=1745642:date=Jan 4 2010, 07:38 AM:name=PSA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PSA @ Jan 4 2010, 07:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745642"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And I guess its cool that you have such amazing blind faith in UWE to do what few or no other game developers have done in order to fix this "gap" we're talking about (which I'm not entirely sure is THAT bad, although it could use some attention).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not really: this is a very mundane thing for game developers, it's something you absolutely have to do on one level or another. I think UW can manage it pretty well judging by NS itself and the bits and pieces I'm picking up on. If not, at least I'll be able to have a go at it myself...
<!--quoteo(post=1745642:date=Jan 4 2010, 07:38 AM:name=PSA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PSA @ Jan 4 2010, 07:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745642"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm still not convinced that "filling the gap" or "doing it right" is nearly as easy or simple as you make it out to be. History is on my side. I wish it weren't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd say it's a lot harder than it sounds, and a lot easier than we think. I think it makes sense to wait until at least Alpha to actually judge anything.
<!--quoteo(post=1745642:date=Jan 4 2010, 07:38 AM:name=PSA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PSA @ Jan 4 2010, 07:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745642"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm also all for an indepth tutorial or tip system, of course, to alleviate some of these problems. Also, I'm sure you didn't quite mean it like this, but bringing up Left4Dead is a really, really bad example. I believe that game is a clear cut example of what many people in the community FEAR will happen to Natural Selection 2. Its not hard. Gameplay is simple, streamlined, not deep. Repetitive. Accessible to anyone. Bordering on brainless. Not competitive (the idea of any sort of competitive L4D is a joke in my opinion). Its meant to pick up, "pew pew pew pew zombies! ok I'm done." People like it because they can pick up a gun and point it at another player (or NPC, etc) and BOOM dead, without much diversity in the matter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'll agree with you here. But only on the matter of Campaign mode: the things people pull off in competitive Versus are outright insane. I personally think of Campaign as an intro to the actual game.
<!--quoteo(post=1745642:date=Jan 4 2010, 07:38 AM:name=PSA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PSA @ Jan 4 2010, 07:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745642"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Another example is Team Fortress 2 (in my own opinion). Predictable model movement (90% of the time), wide spread/splash damage weapons, point at corners or chokepoints and spam. Anyone can do it! And well! Simple, straight forward, easy to pick up, easy to play gameplay. Its not a terrible game by any means, but sending Natural Selection 2 in the direction of TF2 (Or L4D) will remove the flavor, uniqueness, depth and creativity which made NS such a great game in the first place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> TF2 is a very different beast compared to QWTF/TFC, but while it's design choices don't sound too exciting on paper, I'd say it makes for a much, much more exciting and diverse experience in practice: you can actually plan and use strategy instead of sending a medic to flagrun and hope he's not as screwed over by grenadespam as the enemy... Valve sort of dropped the ball on the deeper level of balance right now - Imho - but that's another thing.
<!--quoteo(post=1745642:date=Jan 4 2010, 07:38 AM:name=PSA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PSA @ Jan 4 2010, 07:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745642"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't want to abandon new players or leave them out in the cold, but for how long do you need to hold someones hand, especially when it can be potentially detrimental to depth of gameplay? Put in features or roles that newer players can use/fill, give them an extensive tutorial and tips, but in the end a player should ultimately NOT be rewarded for NOT putting in effort. You either choose to put time into the game to get better, or you DON'T get better. Thats how everything works in life. Thats competition. Etc etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Now we're getting somewhere: punishing players for doing well and rewarding them for losing is a big no-no of game development. Indeed, it overrides anything and everything else.
<!--quoteo(post=1745648:date=Jan 4 2010, 08:20 AM:name=Katana-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Katana- @ Jan 4 2010, 08:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745648"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->These two paragraphs tell me you don't know how to bunny hop, and have no idea what your talking about when it comes to bhop.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I have no idea how you managed to deduce that when I described the precise things you actually do to bhop. I also have no idea how can anyone think it's a hard thing to do once you actually learn what it is, so... Yeah...
<!--quoteo(post=1745648:date=Jan 4 2010, 08:20 AM:name=Katana-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Katana- @ Jan 4 2010, 08:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745648"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Here is the definition of skill in a gaming context.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's going to be a pain: determining terms of discussion is generally a good idea, but only *before* you start it, otherwise you just end up with equivocation.
<!--quoteo(post=1745648:date=Jan 4 2010, 08:20 AM:name=Katana-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Katana- @ Jan 4 2010, 08:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745648"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As I see it, what your actually trying to say, is that execution based skill is arbitrary and should be removed from a game. When I say execution based skill, I mean the "the ability to press the buttons" better then another player. This would be things like aiming and strafing in an FPS. This is a dangerous statement to make. Where do you draw the line at what is a meaningful execution based skill and what isn't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I would draw the line between skills that take regard of the context (strafing, momentum, projectiles) and those that don't (pressing three buttons to jump instead of two). The latter is simply redundant.
What I'm trying to say is: it's important to mind what exactly the skill gap is filled with: if the answer is "frustration", the game ceases to be fun.
<!--quoteo(post=1745651:date=Jan 4 2010, 08:33 AM:name=Tgaud)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tgaud @ Jan 4 2010, 08:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745651"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's not what the game was supposed to be, it's just kind of bug exploit, that people prefer to call "skill technique".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Precisely. If you find an exploit to be fun and want to keep it, you implement it as part of the game itself, not let it decimate game balance just sitting there.
Id tried to do that recently with Quake Live, I think. Doesn't seem to have worked a whole lot, but, you know, they try.
The problem with prohibits scripts... You can't really do that, you can still concoct them using only notepad, in Windows shell itself (no, seriously). I think one cunning approach to this is what Valve have been doing with TF2 recently: simply give the desired "scripted" advantage to all players, e.g. everyone being able to rapid-fire with pistols just by holding down fire button.
<!--quoteo(post=1745654:date=Jan 4 2010, 07:06 AM:name=Draco_2k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Draco_2k @ Jan 4 2010, 07:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745654"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->simply give the desired "scripted" advantage to all players, e.g. everyone being able to rapid-fire with pistols just by holding down fire button.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, i've nothing against this. The most important is that all players have the same functionalities with the original game.
I dont think that finger gymnastic is a good thing to implement to split the good players and the bad ones. I don't see the point. It's why i think BH isn't a good thing.
What should make someone skilled, is the path he will choose, how he can anticipate the reactions, how he can aim with the mouse.. the strategy, the map control etc But definitively not the ability "to press a then r then waiting 0.002s mouving the mouse of 30 degree left" etc...
To concentrate on the game itself, not the keyboard.
When NS implemented the Leap + Bite / Blink + sweep thing with one key only, is the time which made me really enjoy the game in alien.
<!--quoteo(post=1745655:date=Jan 4 2010, 09:17 AM:name=Tgaud)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tgaud @ Jan 4 2010, 09:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745655"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, i've nothing against this. The most important is that all players have the same functionalities with the original game.
I dont think that finger gymnastic is a good thing to implement to split the good players and the bad ones. I don't see the point. It's why i think BH isn't a good thing.
What should make someone skilled, is the path he will choose, how he can anticipate the reactions, how he can aim with the mouse.. the strategy, the map control etc But definitively not the ability "to press a then r then waiting 0.002s mouving the mouse of 30 degree left" etc...
To concentrate on the game itself, not the keyboard.
When NS implemented the Leap + Bite / Blink + sweep thing with one key only, is the time which made me really enjoy the game in alien.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think that's a beautiful way to sum up the issue. Bravo.
All I'm going to contribute to this trolling/ignorance is summary of my userconfig:
<ul><li> Rates</li><li> Jump bound on mousewheelup // I guess this is the evil scriptsz0r people talk about</li><li> +movement on mouse2 on aliens, unbound on marines (Popupmenu is on "q")</li><li> hud_fastswitch 1 </li><li> gamma "3.0" //default is 2.0</li><li> Need medpack bound on "z".</li><li> cl_gammaramp 0 // I'm running on vista, so this is necessary to get the game working properly.</li></ul>
That's my userconfig. I guess I may have made some tweaks in game, but those are the planned modifications I have, the rest should be as trivial as sensitivity or name change.
That config allows me to come to take a half a year break from NS and then come back and play relatively even games with 75% of the competetive scene during one Christmas holiday. Can we now please get back to the topic?
Comments
See here for what it's actually going to be;
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/about/" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/about/</a>
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/about/" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/about/</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Great point, that. As in, working with what we do know for sure.
And we know very little so far... Well, I assume you'd know more, of course. ;)
<!--quoteo(post=1745553:date=Jan 3 2010, 02:48 PM:name=MaDMaxX)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MaDMaxX @ Jan 3 2010, 02:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745553"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think you both need to calm down and stop trying to reply/compete with one another.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry if it's polluting the discussion, I'm trying my best to be civil here.
flame wars such as that usually don't need civility, it needs ignoring, just ignore the people that annoy you, it's not like responding made anything better
as for what I expect NS2 to be, I think it will be one of the few games that will listen to the community during a very long beta, meaning that the game will be somewhat dulled to please a lot of people, but will still be a great game to play (I think they will keep iterating till it is great, but I don't expect it to be that good at release)
I guess that's how it'll have to be. Suppose I should know better than giving people a chance...
<!--quoteo(post=1745560:date=Jan 3 2010, 05:04 PM:name=Biglines)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Biglines @ Jan 3 2010, 05:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745560"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->as for what I expect NS2 to be, I think it will be one of the few games that will listen to the community during a very long beta, meaning that the game will be somewhat dulled to please a lot of people, but will still be a great game to play (I think they will keep iterating till it is great, but I don't expect it to be that good at release)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I sincerely hope this won't happen. The abandoning of the taser gun along these lines was rather disheartening, that thing sounded rad... Well, to me among the minority, of course.
I'm not sure if it's a good or a bad thing. If I had to guess I'd say it all depends on actual execution more than listening to the community or not.
I sincerely hope this won't happen. The abandoning of the taser gun along these lines was rather disheartening, that thing sounded rad... Well, to me among the minority, of course.
I'm not sure if it's a good or a bad thing. If I had to guess I'd say it all depends on actual execution more than listening to the community or not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think a lot of stuff was cut (amongst which the taser) because it would take too long to implement and they didn't have enough funding at the time (I think the heavy/exo was actually cut until they got the huge bonus of all the pre-orders)
I don't particularly like the total modding capability of the game, it will lead to hardly anyone playing vanilla ns as UWE meant it, and splintering an already small community into even smaller sections of people who don't like one particular feature which they fix for their particular 3 people in a small mod. the server sided mods in ns were bad enough already, imagine every single community having their own small mod
If I remember correctly, the taser was cut because of overwhelming negative feedback from the community. Maybe it's still on Twitter if it's the case, that thing is a pain to search though.
<!--quoteo(post=1745566:date=Jan 3 2010, 05:44 PM:name=Biglines)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Biglines @ Jan 3 2010, 05:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745566"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(I think the heavy/exo was actually cut until they got the huge bonus of all the pre-orders)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This sounds about right, yes.
<!--quoteo(post=1745566:date=Jan 3 2010, 05:44 PM:name=Biglines)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Biglines @ Jan 3 2010, 05:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745566"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't particularly like the total modding capability of the game, it will lead to hardly anyone playing vanilla ns as UWE meant it, and splintering an already small community into even smaller sections of people who don't like one particular feature which they fix for their particular 3 people in a small mod. the server sided mods in ns were bad enough already, imagine every single community having their own small mod<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hate it when this happens. In my experience though, it happens less because of the community vote and more because of server administrators trying to be unique, noticeable or just personal. A properly good search functionality for the server browser might alleviate that - at least if my theory is correct - and that's very much planned so far.
I guess I'll expect NS2 to be a fun FPS game that keeps me interested for a few months at least. Obviously I hope it to be similar awesomeness as NS was for me, but that's most likely next to impossible while the present 'casual gaming' wave includes so many nuances and directions I dislike.
We'll often confuse bad implementations for bad directions if we first see the former once too often. I know this from personal experience, too...
Think radial menus in L4D: they were mostly decried as console-ish and clunky and dumbed down because of the amount of times they were done wrong before, but in practice they turned out to be a big improvement over the two-stroke menus. That is, conveniently forgetting BF2's very workable implementation ages before.
(Sorry if it's too obscure, can't think of anything else at the moment.)
Similarly, "casual trends" can mean outright removal of depth as well as better approach to the skill curve. So far it sounds to me NS2 team is going for the latter.
I mostly want NS2 to preserve the possibility of many legitimate strategies, not just shut it down to 2 or 3 strict strategies that are clearly superior (NS may seem like this now, but there are really many possibilities that can be more effective than standard strats, it all depends on the plethora of factors NS offers in each scenario of every game)
The penalties for losing a power node seem so extreme that losing one cannot be an option past several minutes into the game. Combine this with the fact that the maps are more streamlined and simple, with UWE using TF2 for inspiration, and I think it's all but certain that "shut it down" or "lock it down" will be the main strategy.
<!--quoteo(post=1745481:date=Jan 2 2010, 03:34 PM:name=Draco_2k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Draco_2k @ Jan 2 2010, 03:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745481"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I find it hard to be either excited or upset about such things, because you generally just can't know whether or not they'll work until you see them in-game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not that I was upset about the taser or auto-leap jump per se, I was upset that the developers actually thought these ideas were good. There were a lot of nuances in NS1 that made the skill curve vast and there was so much to master. At the time I thought Flayra really knew how to make a game but now I'm questioning if he lucked out because the HL1 engine was used. Don't get me wrong, I know Max and especially Charlie and Cory are veterans in the industry and I respect what they're doing with UWE as a whole. I just feel like NS2 is headed in a direction where addicting features like movement skill are never even considered and I don't like that. Obviously I know not everyone shares my vision of NS2 (I would assume those who do would be labeled "competitive players") but I hope NS1's greatness isn't lost on NS2.
It depends a bit. I want the game to throw me a challenge and force me to cope with it. Meanwhile most games nowadays avoid creating situations where you just have to live by some new rules or you're forced to adapt your thinking.
For example the teammate blocking is usually removed from present games. On the other hand it removes some frustrating moments, but it also removes factors like how a team can enter and exit a room without risking the precious lifeforms. Once a team manages to create a fluent coordination without any blocking mistakes, the whole teamwork and game flow becomes a lot more rewarding. There's certain exitement in the air when everything is going smoothly.
A lot of similar stuff goes to commanding. I want to get baserushed, I want to hop out at a wrong time and feel angry at myself because of such defeat. Once you make the right decisions and survive a tough round, it feels like you've achieved something.
In most of the present games you never get punished too hard for mistakes and there's never an overwhelming amount of action and factors going on. That's why most present games feel a little indifferent to me when you compare them to games like NS and Starcraft.
Gotta side with R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e on this one.
Honestly the word "casual" resembles "bad" more every day. Effort shouldn't be shunned so much. I guess the biggest problem with it is that there is so much effort to be taken in so many things and the majority of them is not worth it.
The guessing game ended with a flame war in the first page, so instead I'll share my hope: What I hope/hoped NS2 to be is NS1 in a new skin, with a devout, small but zealous community that would take the effort of telling everyone what a great game it is, leading to the triumph of NS2. ...it's not THAT ludicrous, people do weight gamers opinions more than a flashy campaign. ...well except the gullible casuals: aaand we're back at root of the problem.
Good night.
<!--quoteo(post=1745584:date=Jan 3 2010, 08:43 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Jan 3 2010, 08:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745584"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The penalties for losing a power node seem so extreme that losing one cannot be an option past several minutes into the game. Combine this with the fact that the maps are more streamlined and simple, with UWE using TF2 for inspiration, and I think it's all but certain that "shut it down" or "lock it down" will be the main strategy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Considering UW want the game to be as changing as possible, I don't think that's something they would go for, at least intentionally.
<!--quoteo(post=1745584:date=Jan 3 2010, 08:43 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Jan 3 2010, 08:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745584"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's not that I was upset about the taser or auto-leap jump per se, I was upset that the developers actually thought these ideas were good. There were a lot of nuances in NS1 that made the skill curve vast and there was so much to master. At the time I thought Flayra really knew how to make a game but now I'm questioning if he lucked out because the HL1 engine was used. Don't get me wrong, I know Max and especially Charlie and Cory are veterans in the industry and I respect what they're doing with UWE as a whole. I just feel like NS2 is headed in a direction where addicting features like movement skill are never even considered and I don't like that. Obviously I know not everyone shares my vision of NS2 (I would assume those who do would be labeled "competitive players") but I hope NS1's greatness isn't lost on NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem here is that you're judging a game we know virtually nothing about by very few very minor aspects. We just don't know how much has truly changed since NS1. It's a bit too early to get upset. (I still have no clue how can anyone consider taser a bad idea...)
"Movement skill" (bunny-hopping, I assume) is a detrimental feature: it's what you'd call a hidden perk, something that is simply never obvious to newcomers, it simply ensures a large skill gap between the players and, hence, unbalanced games. It's not a skill per se, it's simply a secret, and a routine. As much as it's part of gaming tradition, it's just not good gameplay.
It's easy to get false impression it's a skill because it's something you have to do, and it gives you an advantage in-game. But this advantage only applies to people who don't know about it, and what you're doing is repeating once-learned mouse flicks, not reacting to the situation by it's merits. This would be amountable to having to press three buttons to jump instead of one: it's just a hurdle.
...Ahem...
Of course, there are others ways to add what would much better resemble "movement skill" as in adding momentum to player's movements. But that's more applicable in Q3/UT, where you flying all over the place is mandatory.
<!--quoteo(post=1745588:date=Jan 3 2010, 09:33 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jan 3 2010, 09:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745588"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It depends a bit. I want the game to throw me a challenge and force me to cope with it. Meanwhile most games nowadays avoid creating situations where you just have to live by some new rules or you're forced to adapt your thinking.
For example the teammate blocking is usually removed from present games. On the other hand it removes some frustrating moments, but it also removes factors like how a team can enter and exit a room without risking the precious lifeforms. Once a team manages to create a fluent coordination without any blocking mistakes, the whole teamwork and game flow becomes a lot more rewarding. There's certain exitement in the air when everything is going smoothly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think things like these are rather what you'd call "sacrifices", where the payoff for implementing or removing something just isn't high enough to outbalance player frustration. Backpedalling into your teammate when you're looking for cover is not a good thing on any level of play...
I think this is a very gray area here. I'm still having trouble seeing the difference between "challenging" and "adapting", per se.
<!--quoteo(post=1745614:date=Jan 4 2010, 02:59 AM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ Jan 4 2010, 02:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745614"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly the word "casual" resembles "bad" more every day.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's understandable: because most games that are released are casual, and because most of the games that are released are ######. We just easily equate correlation with causation, which is actually a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation" target="_blank">no-no</a>. "Casual" doesn't really mean "dumbed down", it means "accessible".
<!--quoteo(post=1745614:date=Jan 4 2010, 02:59 AM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ Jan 4 2010, 02:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745614"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The guessing game ended with a flame war in the first page, so instead I'll share my hope: What I hope/hoped NS2 to be is NS1 in a new skin, with a devout, small but zealous community that would take the effort of telling everyone what a great game it is, leading to the triumph of NS2. ...it's not THAT ludicrous, people do weight gamers opinions more than a flashy campaign. ...well except the gullible casuals: aaand we're back at root of the problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Goddamit, you actually made my eyes water... This is what every Unreal fan wanted UT3 to be.
It can be re-worded any way people like, but it still means making the game in a fashion to where there is less of a gap between Player A :"experienced" or "skilled," and Player B: newer and inexperienced (or just clueless/skill-less ie poor dexterity and hand eye coordination, etc), which essentially removes depth and lowers the skill ceiling of the game, crunching those two ranging extremes of players closer together.
This then prompts the term "dumbed-down."
I never said I liked their current way they're going about the possible strategies, I'm just saying what I expect them to present when it's time
And ya, that's what It's currently looking like to me as well
It's what you see, due to bad implementation. The general idea behind good skill curves is that newcomers will indeed be able to perform like experienced players given time and practice within the game itself (no looking up counter-intuitive tricks and strategies, that is), while still maintaining depth to gameplay itself. This has little to do with being "casual" or "pro" in itself, but with good gameplay design.
I believe Blizzard are going to great lengths in this with StarCraft 2 with Campaign being one giant Tutorial for battle strategies, challenges that explain resource management, micro's, so on...
<!--quoteo(post=1745629:date=Jan 4 2010, 04:39 AM:name=PSA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PSA @ Jan 4 2010, 04:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745629"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It can be re-worded any way people like, but it still means making the game in a fashion to where there is less of a gap between Player A :"experienced" or "skilled," and Player B: newer and inexperienced (or just clueless/skill-less ie poor dexterity and hand eye coordination, etc), which essentially removes depth and lowers the skill ceiling of the game, crunching those two ranging extremes of players closer together.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The idea is not having the gap itself, but what fills that gap: something that you can learn in-game, or something that you'd never do otherwise. I.e. any player can learn to rocket-juggle in any game, but you just can't do the same with bunny-hopping or conc-jumping - the latter fill the skill gap with obscurity rather than skill itself.
And Star Craft 2 having "one giant tutorial" explaining the finer aspects such as hotkeys, micro/macro management, resource managment, etc, is one completely different thing than implementing a system which cuts out (or dumbs down, or streamlines, take your pick) any of the above meta-games/gameplay features which add depth. This is exactly what happens in most games though, especially speaking in terms of FPS as of late.
Its great to use SC2 as an example and all, because Blizzard has done a stellar job up until now, but SC is really in a different catagory, because the game is not restricted to online play, and it does NOT force you to play against other players 24/7, including those amazing Korean pros and otherwise. I garuantee that if it did, as in, if the only game play model for the game was to play against other players, potentially pitting you against so called "pros" every time without your "consent" persay, then things would be MUCH different. Fortunately, they're able to get around that by having small game-sizes, choice of who you play against, or just sticking to Computer opponents or the campaign.
Doesn't work like that here. You join a server, theres 20 other players, and theres a possibility two or three of them are way better than you and you aren't going to have a chance against them. Honestly, thats tough, but hey, its how it should be.
Also, by your reckoning, does it mean that its ok to include features like bunny-hopping and conc-jumping into the game if the game-designers explicitly state in-game that it exists and how to do it? If so then, hey, I just figured out the solution for you right there.
They are. Absolutely.
<!--quoteo(post=1745632:date=Jan 4 2010, 05:31 AM:name=PSA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PSA @ Jan 4 2010, 05:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745632"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I doubt they're going to make any amazing discoveries on how to "fill the gap" in any other way than the current style of "bad implementation" you mention.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They have to, and they directly said they work with that premise in mind. What I'm talking about is simply good game design: "Easy to learn, hard to master."
<!--quoteo(post=1745632:date=Jan 4 2010, 05:31 AM:name=PSA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PSA @ Jan 4 2010, 05:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745632"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its easy to say "well yeah those OTHER games are bad. They're just doing it wrong. They need to do it right!" and then stopping there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, it is easy. It's no rocket science: skill curves lie are the backbone of game design. If you have a bad skill curve, you're just not doing it right.
<!--quoteo(post=1745632:date=Jan 4 2010, 05:31 AM:name=PSA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PSA @ Jan 4 2010, 05:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745632"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And Star Craft 2 having "one giant tutorial" explaining the finer aspects such as hotkeys, micro/macro management, resource managment, etc, is one completely different thing than implementing a system which cuts out (or dumbs down, or streamlines, take your pick) any of the above meta-games/gameplay features which add depth.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which was the point of the example: making the game more intuitive without cutting down it's diversity. Say, Left 4 Dead also does this with it's hint system, which is a hell of a lot more fluid. The point is, it's possible.
<!--quoteo(post=1745632:date=Jan 4 2010, 05:31 AM:name=PSA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PSA @ Jan 4 2010, 05:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745632"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Doesn't work like that here. You join a server, theres 20 other players, and theres a possibility two or three of them are way better than you and you aren't going to have a chance against them. Honestly, thats tough, but hey, its how it should be.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How it's been, not how it should be. Tradition doesn't make a right: the gaming would never be as big as it is today if developers continued to treat their players like sworn enemies. Frankly, this is just impolite.
Alienating newcomers is generally a sure-fire way to kill any game. Doesn't matter how good you are at it when you're sitting on the server all alone. And, personally, I sure as hell wouldn't want to be there sharing it with whomever is left... I've already seen one too many of my favourite games die that way, too.
<!--quoteo(post=1745632:date=Jan 4 2010, 05:31 AM:name=PSA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PSA @ Jan 4 2010, 05:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745632"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, by your reckoning, does it mean that its ok to include features like bunny-hopping and conc-jumping into the game if the game-designers explicitly state in-game that it exists and how to do it? If so then, hey, I just figured out the solution for you right there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not really. Neither of those things really contributes to skill or gameplay per se, it only adds a learning hurdle. If you want to give players freedom of movement, you're better off searching for another method, the one that would have an actual response curve to it (E.g. Jetpacks in Tribes/Global Agenda).
As in, it's easy to mistake bhopping/conc for a skill because it enables momentum-based gameplay in some games, but that much can be implemented in player movement itself if it's actually desired. Most people I see clinging to such things nowadays simply do so because without it they turn out to be hardly any better than your average Joe in terms of aiming, coordination and other things that can be and are learned through gameplay.
(I'm not accusing you of any of that, in case it sounds like it.)
Wish maps could be limitless like Crysis... and i want a dropship / jeep!!! like was promised once!!!
NS2 kicks Doom's <b>ASS</b>.
<!--quoteo(post=1745636:date=Jan 4 2010, 07:12 AM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Jan 4 2010, 07:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745636"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wish maps could be limitless like Crysis... and i want a dropship / jeep!!! like was promised once!!!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oi. When did that happen?..
And I guess its cool that you have such amazing blind faith in UWE to do what few or no other game developers have done in order to fix this "gap" we're talking about (which I'm not entirely sure is THAT bad, although it could use some attention). I really hope you're right, and I'm in no way in the camp which has negative expectations for this game. On the contrary, I'm still excited for a good, solid, game. But I'm not without my reservations or fears about how far they choose to "level the playing field" for players in regards to the skill gap, along with what will come as a result. I'm still not convinced that "filling the gap" or "doing it right" is nearly as easy or simple as you make it out to be. History is on my side. I wish it weren't.
I'm also all for an indepth tutorial or tip system, of course, to alleviate some of these problems. Also, I'm sure you didn't quite mean it like this, but bringing up Left4Dead is a really, really bad example. I believe that game is a clear cut example of what many people in the community FEAR will happen to Natural Selection 2. Its not hard. Gameplay is simple, streamlined, not deep. Repetitive. Accessible to anyone. Bordering on brainless. Not competitive (the idea of any sort of competitive L4D is a joke in my opinion). Its meant to pick up, "pew pew pew pew zombies! ok I'm done." People like it because they can pick up a gun and point it at another player (or NPC, etc) and BOOM dead, without much diversity in the matter.
Another example is Team Fortress 2 (in my own opinion). Predictable model movement (90% of the time), wide spread/splash damage weapons, point at corners or chokepoints and spam. Anyone can do it! And well! Simple, straight forward, easy to pick up, easy to play gameplay. Its not a terrible game by any means, but sending Natural Selection 2 in the direction of TF2 (Or L4D) will remove the flavor, uniqueness, depth and creativity which made NS such a great game in the first place.
I don't want to abandon new players or leave them out in the cold, but for how long do you need to hold someones hand, especially when it can be potentially detrimental to depth of gameplay? Put in features or roles that newer players can use/fill, give them an extensive tutorial and tips, but in the end a player should ultimately NOT be rewarded for NOT putting in effort. You either choose to put time into the game to get better, or you DON'T get better. Thats how everything works in life. Thats competition. Etc etc.
It's easy to get false impression it's a skill because it's something you have to do, and it gives you an advantage in-game. But this advantage only applies to people who don't know about it, and what you're doing is repeating once-learned mouse flicks, not reacting to the situation by it's merits. This would be amountable to having to press three buttons to jump instead of one: it's just a hurdle.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
These two paragraphs tell me you don't know how to bunny hop, and have no idea what your talking about when it comes to bhop.
Bhop is not a wrote memorization task, some people are very good at it, so are bad. Applying it is very difficult, you have to fit your movement to the patterns need to gain speed using bhop. Also bhop effectively adds in the momentum you are talking about at the end of your post, because it takes a fair amount of time and space to get up to full speed while bhopping. So if you hit something, or go into combat incorrectly your at a huge disadvantage. because you are now moving slowly.
Just knowing how to bhop, gives you an edge over players who don't, but there is a huge variation in skill between one bhopper and the next. It takes a lot of coordination and concentration to bunny hop, it is hardly an on-off switch. You don't just know it and suddenly you can race around a map, over ramps, up stairs, etc at full speed. Also bhop really doesn't give that much of an advantage, a lot of the time its just that a better more dedicated players take the time to learn it, because it does in fact take a long time to learn and master the technique. So its hard to say how much of an advantage bhop confirms, because players who learn to bhop are often those that take the game much more seriously (play in leagues, practice for hours etc)
Also I wish people would stop trying to say this technique or that strat isn't a skill, or isn't skillfull. Here is the definition of skill in a gaming context.
<b>
Skill: "The ability for one player to consistently beat another through any means legal in the game system."</b>
I think every one should be able to agree, that in the end that is what being skillful in a game means.
if "pressing three buttons to jump" confers an advantage over pressing 1 button to jump, being able to do that is a skill in that game. Arguably it is a skill that should be removed, because it is a very arbitrary. But maybe it adds a whole lot to the game in question? Game doesn't exist so it be hard to say :-)
As I see it, what your actually trying to say, is that execution based skill is arbitrary and should be removed from a game. When I say execution based skill, I mean the "the ability to press the buttons" better then another player. This would be things like aiming and strafing in an FPS. This is a dangerous statement to make. Where do you draw the line at what is a meaningful execution based skill and what isn't.
Last point. The fact that there is a large gap between experienced player who train and practice, and new players.... IS GOOD DESIGN. This means it is a good game of skill.
And yes, it gives an enourmous advantage, when you see marines moving faster than skulk, Gorges without Celerity faster than catalyst marines...
That's not what the game was supposed to be, it's just kind of bug exploit, that people prefer to call "skill technique".
If i could decide of one thing on NS2 and only one :
It would be to definitivly forbid scripts (Bh scripts, Pistol scripts, lerk scripts etc..)
it's like to say "people who know a little about .config file configuration can have a free cheat !!"
it's simply a non-sense for the gameplay.
I dont want to make the choice between :
_takings hours to search tweak then apply them to the game in config files
_not being competitive in league against tweakers.
Bhop is not a wrote memorization task, some people are very good at it, so are bad. Applying it is very difficult, you have to fit your movement to the patterns need to gain speed using bhop. Also bhop effectively adds in the momentum you are talking about at the end of your post, because it takes a fair amount of time and space to get up to full speed while bhopping. So if you hit something, or go into combat incorrectly your at a huge disadvantage. because you are now moving slowly.
Just knowing how to bhop, gives you an edge over players who don't, but there is a huge variation in skill between one bhopper and the next. It takes a lot of coordination and concentration to bunny hop, it is hardly an on-off switch. You don't just know it and suddenly you can race around a map, over ramps, up stairs, etc at full speed. Also bhop really doesn't give that much of an advantage, a lot of the time its just that a better more dedicated players take the time to learn it, because it does in fact take a long time to learn and master the technique. So its hard to say how much of an advantage bhop confirms, because players who learn to bhop are often those that take the game much more seriously (play in leagues, practice for hours etc)
Also I wish people would stop trying to say this technique or that strat isn't a skill, or isn't skillfull. Here is the definition of skill in a gaming context.
<b>
Skill: "The ability for one player to consistently beat another through any means legal in the game system."</b>
I think every one should be able to agree, that in the end that is what being skillful in a game means.
if "pressing three buttons to jump" confers an advantage over pressing 1 button to jump, being able to do that is a skill in that game. Arguably it is a skill that should be removed, because it is a very arbitrary. But maybe it adds a whole lot to the game in question? Game doesn't exist so it be hard to say :-)
As I see it, what your actually trying to say, is that execution based skill is arbitrary and should be removed from a game. When I say execution based skill, I mean the "the ability to press the buttons" better then another player. This would be things like aiming and strafing in an FPS. This is a dangerous statement to make. Where do you draw the line at what is a meaningful execution based skill and what isn't.
Last point. The fact that there is a large gap between experienced player who train and practice, and new players.... IS GOOD DESIGN. This means it is a good game of skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
good post, read this
Any good Bhopper doesn't use a bhop script, it's mostly a launching pad for people who can't get the timing down
<!--quoteo(post=1745642:date=Jan 4 2010, 07:38 AM:name=PSA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PSA @ Jan 4 2010, 07:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745642"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not entirely against removing bhoping or the like, because I see where it fits in with your argument, and you make sense there, yes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I swear this is the first time anyone ever told me I make sense.
<!--quoteo(post=1745642:date=Jan 4 2010, 07:38 AM:name=PSA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PSA @ Jan 4 2010, 07:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745642"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And I guess its cool that you have such amazing blind faith in UWE to do what few or no other game developers have done in order to fix this "gap" we're talking about (which I'm not entirely sure is THAT bad, although it could use some attention).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not really: this is a very mundane thing for game developers, it's something you absolutely have to do on one level or another. I think UW can manage it pretty well judging by NS itself and the bits and pieces I'm picking up on. If not, at least I'll be able to have a go at it myself...
<!--quoteo(post=1745642:date=Jan 4 2010, 07:38 AM:name=PSA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PSA @ Jan 4 2010, 07:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745642"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm still not convinced that "filling the gap" or "doing it right" is nearly as easy or simple as you make it out to be. History is on my side. I wish it weren't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd say it's a lot harder than it sounds, and a lot easier than we think. I think it makes sense to wait until at least Alpha to actually judge anything.
<!--quoteo(post=1745642:date=Jan 4 2010, 07:38 AM:name=PSA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PSA @ Jan 4 2010, 07:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745642"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm also all for an indepth tutorial or tip system, of course, to alleviate some of these problems. Also, I'm sure you didn't quite mean it like this, but bringing up Left4Dead is a really, really bad example. I believe that game is a clear cut example of what many people in the community FEAR will happen to Natural Selection 2. Its not hard. Gameplay is simple, streamlined, not deep. Repetitive. Accessible to anyone. Bordering on brainless. Not competitive (the idea of any sort of competitive L4D is a joke in my opinion). Its meant to pick up, "pew pew pew pew zombies! ok I'm done." People like it because they can pick up a gun and point it at another player (or NPC, etc) and BOOM dead, without much diversity in the matter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll agree with you here. But only on the matter of Campaign mode: the things people pull off in competitive Versus are outright insane. I personally think of Campaign as an intro to the actual game.
<!--quoteo(post=1745642:date=Jan 4 2010, 07:38 AM:name=PSA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PSA @ Jan 4 2010, 07:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745642"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Another example is Team Fortress 2 (in my own opinion). Predictable model movement (90% of the time), wide spread/splash damage weapons, point at corners or chokepoints and spam. Anyone can do it! And well! Simple, straight forward, easy to pick up, easy to play gameplay. Its not a terrible game by any means, but sending Natural Selection 2 in the direction of TF2 (Or L4D) will remove the flavor, uniqueness, depth and creativity which made NS such a great game in the first place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
TF2 is a very different beast compared to QWTF/TFC, but while it's design choices don't sound too exciting on paper, I'd say it makes for a much, much more exciting and diverse experience in practice: you can actually plan and use strategy instead of sending a medic to flagrun and hope he's not as screwed over by grenadespam as the enemy... Valve sort of dropped the ball on the deeper level of balance right now - Imho - but that's another thing.
<!--quoteo(post=1745642:date=Jan 4 2010, 07:38 AM:name=PSA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PSA @ Jan 4 2010, 07:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745642"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't want to abandon new players or leave them out in the cold, but for how long do you need to hold someones hand, especially when it can be potentially detrimental to depth of gameplay? Put in features or roles that newer players can use/fill, give them an extensive tutorial and tips, but in the end a player should ultimately NOT be rewarded for NOT putting in effort. You either choose to put time into the game to get better, or you DON'T get better. Thats how everything works in life. Thats competition. Etc etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now we're getting somewhere: punishing players for doing well and rewarding them for losing is a big no-no of game development. Indeed, it overrides anything and everything else.
<!--quoteo(post=1745648:date=Jan 4 2010, 08:20 AM:name=Katana-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Katana- @ Jan 4 2010, 08:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745648"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->These two paragraphs tell me you don't know how to bunny hop, and have no idea what your talking about when it comes to bhop.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have no idea how you managed to deduce that when I described the precise things you actually do to bhop. I also have no idea how can anyone think it's a hard thing to do once you actually learn what it is, so... Yeah...
<!--quoteo(post=1745648:date=Jan 4 2010, 08:20 AM:name=Katana-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Katana- @ Jan 4 2010, 08:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745648"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Here is the definition of skill in a gaming context.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's going to be a pain: determining terms of discussion is generally a good idea, but only *before* you start it, otherwise you just end up with equivocation.
<!--quoteo(post=1745648:date=Jan 4 2010, 08:20 AM:name=Katana-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Katana- @ Jan 4 2010, 08:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745648"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As I see it, what your actually trying to say, is that execution based skill is arbitrary and should be removed from a game. When I say execution based skill, I mean the "the ability to press the buttons" better then another player. This would be things like aiming and strafing in an FPS. This is a dangerous statement to make. Where do you draw the line at what is a meaningful execution based skill and what isn't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would draw the line between skills that take regard of the context (strafing, momentum, projectiles) and those that don't (pressing three buttons to jump instead of two). The latter is simply redundant.
What I'm trying to say is: it's important to mind what exactly the skill gap is filled with: if the answer is "frustration", the game ceases to be fun.
<!--quoteo(post=1745651:date=Jan 4 2010, 08:33 AM:name=Tgaud)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tgaud @ Jan 4 2010, 08:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745651"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's not what the game was supposed to be, it's just kind of bug exploit, that people prefer to call "skill technique".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Precisely. If you find an exploit to be fun and want to keep it, you implement it as part of the game itself, not let it decimate game balance just sitting there.
Id tried to do that recently with Quake Live, I think. Doesn't seem to have worked a whole lot, but, you know, they try.
The problem with prohibits scripts... You can't really do that, you can still concoct them using only notepad, in Windows shell itself (no, seriously). I think one cunning approach to this is what Valve have been doing with TF2 recently: simply give the desired "scripted" advantage to all players, e.g. everyone being able to rapid-fire with pistols just by holding down fire button.
Yeah, i've nothing against this.
The most important is that all players have the same functionalities with the original game.
I dont think that finger gymnastic is a good thing to implement to split the good players and the bad ones.
I don't see the point.
It's why i think BH isn't a good thing.
What should make someone skilled, is the path he will choose, how he can anticipate the reactions, how he can aim with the mouse..
the strategy, the map control etc
But definitively not the ability "to press a then r then waiting 0.002s mouving the mouse of 30 degree left" etc...
To concentrate on the game itself, not the keyboard.
When NS implemented the Leap + Bite / Blink + sweep thing with one key only, is the time which made me really enjoy the game in alien.
The most important is that all players have the same functionalities with the original game.
I dont think that finger gymnastic is a good thing to implement to split the good players and the bad ones.
I don't see the point.
It's why i think BH isn't a good thing.
What should make someone skilled, is the path he will choose, how he can anticipate the reactions, how he can aim with the mouse..
the strategy, the map control etc
But definitively not the ability "to press a then r then waiting 0.002s mouving the mouse of 30 degree left" etc...
To concentrate on the game itself, not the keyboard.
When NS implemented the Leap + Bite / Blink + sweep thing with one key only, is the time which made me really enjoy the game in alien.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that's a beautiful way to sum up the issue. Bravo.
<ul><li> Rates</li><li> Jump bound on mousewheelup // I guess this is the evil scriptsz0r people talk about</li><li> +movement on mouse2 on aliens, unbound on marines (Popupmenu is on "q")</li><li> hud_fastswitch 1 </li><li> gamma "3.0" //default is 2.0</li><li> Need medpack bound on "z".</li><li> cl_gammaramp 0 // I'm running on vista, so this is necessary to get the game working properly.</li></ul>
That's my userconfig. I guess I may have made some tweaks in game, but those are the planned modifications I have, the rest should be as trivial as sensitivity or name change.
That config allows me to come to take a half a year break from NS and then come back and play relatively even games with 75% of the competetive scene during one Christmas holiday. Can we now please get back to the topic?