<!--quoteo(post=1730844:date=Oct 5 2009, 03:13 PM:name=Evil_bOb1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Evil_bOb1 @ Oct 5 2009, 03:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730844"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->yup yup! I think a complete wiki with accumulated information over time would be much better than a teaching forum. If a good new question is brought up in the help and troubleshooting, then just add the info to the wiki. If a question that comes up but is addressed in the wiki well you know...
Forum members aren't there to teach how to map. We help each other addressing issues, but no one can teach you how to map. I kind of think if you can't teach yourself, no one is going to teach you for you. If everyone has the same knowledge whats the point of being an individual?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Things like this can always benefit from a "READ THIS BEFORE ASKING" type sticky at the top of a forum. But I also disagree with the elitist sentiments some people have towards beginning mappers. Scaring them completely away doesn't help anyone.
Just to clarify, I would suggest that the 'NS2 Mods' forum be a separate section to 'NS2 Level Design' (in the same way 'Art' and 'Creation' are for NS1).
The format I suggested is to allow all the changeable information to be hosted on the wiki (created initially by the devs and then elaborated and updated by the community as time goes on). This information can be linked to from the mapping forums by referring to broader sections of the NS2 mapping wiki. I say this because as good as the devs intentions may be initially (and from personal experience), it's a massive pain to keep having to maintain 'official' info on forums, and because if this is not done forums that are outdated have a very negative impact on the game/mod and its community.
Forums can only ever be maintained by official representatives of the dev team, so it makes sense to ease back on the amount of work their forum team has to deal with and pass as much of that onto the community as possible. In a wiki setup, the many knowledgable members of the mapping community will have more time and be just as equipped to keep the wiki updated and accurate than the forum admins. It just makes more sense to do it this way than to waste a wiki on mostly static 'official' content only updated by the dev team as and when they have the time to do so.
<b>Re: The Crysis Forums</b> The Fundamentals/Advanced split is, for me, an organisational headache. How does a beginner know if they are asking an advanced or fundamental question? Who decides if a question is fundamental or advanced? Someone will have to do this, and it won't be the general community members. I just think that offloading this to a wiki where the community can elaborate this information is far better than leaving it down to one or two forum admins/moderators. Just look at how tidy the Valve wiki is for something like <a href="http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Team_Fortress_2_Level_Creation" target="_blank">TF2 mapping</a>: almost everything is done by category as opposed to advanced/beginner. If I have played TF2 and I want to make something in a map, such as an intro video, I can search for it or go straight to a category from that page. I don't have to search in the Fundamental and Advanced forums until I find a topic that covers this.
Another thing, if I am searching for something on a wiki I will get results based on relevance (i.e. if that query occurs in a category title), on a forum search I will most likely get results based on frequency (i.e. how often a search query is found in a topic). In the second example I could find a thread talking only about the very specifics of a feature, instead of the basics. In a wiki search I will probably find the basics and advanced techniques covered in one article.
This, plus the fact the community can maintain a wiki, is why it is preferable to host most information on a wiki and keep the forums for specific projects and very specific questions. It's also nice to have a resource you can link to in a post for every basic question asked.
<!--quoteo(post=1730854:date=Oct 5 2009, 05:28 PM:name=FuNiOnZ)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FuNiOnZ @ Oct 5 2009, 05:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730854"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But I also disagree with the elitist sentiments some people have towards beginning mappers. Scaring them completely away doesn't help anyone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You got the point <img src="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/style_images/tsa/folder_post_icons/icon10.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" /> That's the main reason to separate beginners from advanced mappers.
Anyway, if the advanced mappers have no problem and the will to help the new guys, lets only have 1 forum for it. And yes, the idea is to make the wiki the central place for all the info. Once something is clarified on the forum it can be added to the wiki, making it the place to go first if you want to learn (like me).
--¬ FORUM: <b>NS2 Level Design</b> (general help/how to) <!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->------¬ LINK: NS2 Wiki ('Level Design' section) ------¬ LINK: NS2 Level Requirements (link to 'NS2 Map/Mod Requirements' section of the NS2 Wiki) ------¬ STICKY: Frequently Asked Questions ------¬ STICKY: Useful links<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> --¬ FORUM: <b>Feedback & Support Forum</b> (for tool specific questions/bug reports or so - answers by advanced and UWE?)
--¬ Sub-Section: <b>Level Creation</b> ------¬ FORUM: <b>Work in Progress</b> ------¬ FORUM: <b>Released</b> <!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->----------¬ STICKY: Released List<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
--¬ Sub-Section: <b>Mod Creation</b> ------¬ FORUM: <b>Work in Progress</b> ------¬ FORUM: <b>Released</b> <!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->----------¬ STICKY: Released List<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Note that I set the level and Mod creation inside the other one. For me makes sense having separated the WIP and Released. In one you have your thread with the info about your work, and you can have feedback about it, find testers, find other people that can help you. In the other you have the same thread once your work is finished, and then you can get feedback/bug reports, and update it every time you update your map/mod.
But a mod isn't a level. A mod could be a simple script that alters the way the game plays, or a set of custom models that change the way the game characters look, both requiring no level creation at all. So why link to mods inside a forum marked 'NS2 Level Design' ?
ok, call it <b>NS2 Design</b>. The name right now is not that important, but the structure it is.
Is the same with Level/Mod creation, there is no sense in name that "creation" but you get the general idea. In Mod should be all the modifications, no matter if it is a simple thing or a total modification.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Natural Selection 2 - Creation Forums</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> -- NS2 Design <!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->(general help/how to)<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> -- Feedback & Support <!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->(for tool specific questions/bug reports or so - answers by advanced and UWE?)<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
-- <b>Level</b> ---- Work in Progress ---- Released
-- <b>Modifications</b> ---- Work in Progress ---- Released
Of course, I don't know if this forum support categories inside forums.
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2009
<!--quoteo(post=1730854:date=Oct 5 2009, 03:28 PM:name=FuNiOnZ)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FuNiOnZ @ Oct 5 2009, 03:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1730854"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Things like this can always benefit from a "READ THIS BEFORE ASKING" type sticky at the top of a forum. But I also disagree with the elitist sentiments some people have towards beginning mappers. Scaring them completely away doesn't help anyone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't really think there are elitist mappers that scare beginners off. I think every mapper is very happy to see new faces and new ideas.
edit. Coming to think about it what you say is like a rumor to scare beginners off :p
Paisand I believe you are fighting a losing battle. The game team, the forums team, the site team they've always strived for simplicity as it works best 9 times out of 10.
I can't see a change in the way the mapping forums was and Crispy I agree with Crispy you will find a "Mod forum, Mapping Forum, Creation Forum" in the same format as now.
It's a nice suggestion to do so but you scare people off and over-complicate things. The community has and always will get involved as much as possible which will mean threads dedicated to release and screenshots will always work better than whole forums.
Comments
Forum members aren't there to teach how to map. We help each other addressing issues, but no one can teach you how to map. I kind of think if you can't teach yourself, no one is going to teach you for you. If everyone has the same knowledge whats the point of being an individual?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Things like this can always benefit from a "READ THIS BEFORE ASKING" type sticky at the top of a forum. But I also disagree with the elitist sentiments some people have towards beginning mappers. Scaring them completely away doesn't help anyone.
The format I suggested is to allow all the changeable information to be hosted on the wiki (created initially by the devs and then elaborated and updated by the community as time goes on). This information can be linked to from the mapping forums by referring to broader sections of the NS2 mapping wiki. I say this because as good as the devs intentions may be initially (and from personal experience), it's a massive pain to keep having to maintain 'official' info on forums, and because if this is not done forums that are outdated have a very negative impact on the game/mod and its community.
Forums can only ever be maintained by official representatives of the dev team, so it makes sense to ease back on the amount of work their forum team has to deal with and pass as much of that onto the community as possible. In a wiki setup, the many knowledgable members of the mapping community will have more time and be just as equipped to keep the wiki updated and accurate than the forum admins. It just makes more sense to do it this way than to waste a wiki on mostly static 'official' content only updated by the dev team as and when they have the time to do so.
<b>Re: The Crysis Forums</b>
The Fundamentals/Advanced split is, for me, an organisational headache. How does a beginner know if they are asking an advanced or fundamental question? Who decides if a question is fundamental or advanced? Someone will have to do this, and it won't be the general community members. I just think that offloading this to a wiki where the community can elaborate this information is far better than leaving it down to one or two forum admins/moderators. Just look at how tidy the Valve wiki is for something like <a href="http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Team_Fortress_2_Level_Creation" target="_blank">TF2 mapping</a>: almost everything is done by category as opposed to advanced/beginner. If I have played TF2 and I want to make something in a map, such as an intro video, I can search for it or go straight to a category from that page. I don't have to search in the Fundamental and Advanced forums until I find a topic that covers this.
Another thing, if I am searching for something on a wiki I will get results based on relevance (i.e. if that query occurs in a category title), on a forum search I will most likely get results based on frequency (i.e. how often a search query is found in a topic). In the second example I could find a thread talking only about the very specifics of a feature, instead of the basics. In a wiki search I will probably find the basics and advanced techniques covered in one article.
This, plus the fact the community can maintain a wiki, is why it is preferable to host most information on a wiki and keep the forums for specific projects and very specific questions. It's also nice to have a resource you can link to in a post for every basic question asked.
You got the point <img src="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/style_images/tsa/folder_post_icons/icon10.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
That's the main reason to separate beginners from advanced mappers.
Anyway, if the advanced mappers have no problem and the will to help the new guys, lets only have 1 forum for it.
And yes, the idea is to make the wiki the central place for all the info. Once something is clarified on the forum it can be added to the wiki, making it the place to go first if you want to learn (like me).
Something like this:
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Natural Selection 2 - Creation Forums</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> (main section)
--¬ FORUM: <b>NS2 Level Design</b> (general help/how to)
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->------¬ LINK: NS2 Wiki ('Level Design' section)
------¬ LINK: NS2 Level Requirements (link to 'NS2 Map/Mod Requirements' section of the NS2 Wiki)
------¬ STICKY: Frequently Asked Questions
------¬ STICKY: Useful links<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
--¬ FORUM: <b>Feedback & Support Forum</b> (for tool specific questions/bug reports or so - answers by advanced and UWE?)
--¬ Sub-Section: <b>Level Creation</b>
------¬ FORUM: <b>Work in Progress</b>
------¬ FORUM: <b>Released</b>
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->----------¬ STICKY: Released List<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
--¬ Sub-Section: <b>Mod Creation</b>
------¬ FORUM: <b>Work in Progress</b>
------¬ FORUM: <b>Released</b>
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->----------¬ STICKY: Released List<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Note that I set the level and Mod creation inside the other one.
For me makes sense having separated the WIP and Released. In one you have your thread with the info about your work, and you can have feedback about it, find testers, find other people that can help you. In the other you have the same thread once your work is finished, and then you can get feedback/bug reports, and update it every time you update your map/mod.
The name right now is not that important, but the structure it is.
Is the same with Level/Mod creation, there is no sense in name that "creation" but you get the general idea.
In Mod should be all the modifications, no matter if it is a simple thing or a total modification.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Natural Selection 2 - Creation Forums</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
-- NS2 Design <!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->(general help/how to)<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
-- Feedback & Support <!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->(for tool specific questions/bug reports or so - answers by advanced and UWE?)<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
-- <b>Level</b>
---- Work in Progress
---- Released
-- <b>Modifications</b>
---- Work in Progress
---- Released
Of course, I don't know if this forum support categories inside forums.
I don't really think there are elitist mappers that scare beginners off. I think every mapper is very happy to see new faces and new ideas.
edit. Coming to think about it what you say is like a rumor to scare beginners off :p
I can't see a change in the way the mapping forums was and Crispy I agree with Crispy you will find a "Mod forum, Mapping Forum, Creation Forum" in the same format as now.
It's a nice suggestion to do so but you scare people off and over-complicate things. The community has and always will get involved as much as possible which will mean threads dedicated to release and screenshots will always work better than whole forums.