<!--quoteo(post=1729402:date=Sep 28 2009, 05:29 PM:name=-Diesel-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (-Diesel- @ Sep 28 2009, 05:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729402"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Did the developers even intend the game to have bunny hopping? That is the most important thing, if yes... then there is nothing we can do about it. If no, Then stop whining because it is just a glitched way to go faster.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The game is explicitly balanced around bhoping as an integral part of the alien game.
This kind of knowledge gap is what makes forums like these so frustrating.
<!--quoteo(post=1729402:date=Sep 28 2009, 02:29 PM:name=-Diesel-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (-Diesel- @ Sep 28 2009, 02:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729402"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Did the developers even intend the game to have bunny hopping?
That is the most important thing, if yes... then there is nothing we can do about it.
If no, Then stop whining because it is just a glitched way to go faster.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) Yes they did 2) That is NOT the most important thing, what the developers intended doesn't matter WHAT SO EVER. 3) Do you believe in god?
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
Bunnyhopping was inherited from the Half-Life engine, but around the release of NS 2.0 Flayra officially acknowledged it as part of the game. (That same version included some balancing measures for bunnyhopping, including the change that made it almost impossible to bunnyhop as a marine.)
edit: Why not make the aliens a bit faster runners so it is fair for all and they don't look like idiot frogs jumping around all over?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1729416:date=Sep 28 2009, 05:46 PM:name=Opprobrious)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Opprobrious @ Sep 28 2009, 05:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729416"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why not just give all marines auto-aim so it's fair to all?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1729425:date=Sep 28 2009, 05:53 PM:name=Pest)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pest @ Sep 28 2009, 05:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729425"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry to go completely off-topic, but I just <a href="http://www.losethegame.com/" target="_blank">lost the game</a>. :(<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
edit: Why not make the aliens a bit faster runners so it is fair for all and they don't look like idiot frogs jumping around all over?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iv-Ky5duveE" target="_blank">Idiot frogs?</a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jzyi4XF0jKk" target="_blank">Look like aliens to me.</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1729423:date=Sep 28 2009, 05:51 PM:name=-Diesel-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (-Diesel- @ Sep 28 2009, 05:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729423"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok now that is just a stupid idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Are you serious?
<!--quoteo(post=1729416:date=Sep 28 2009, 10:46 PM:name=Opprobrious)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Opprobrious @ Sep 28 2009, 10:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729416"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why not just give all marines auto-aim so it's fair to all?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
dud that wud make the game so much funner , good idea. becuz alieons are too fast to kill sometimes.
<!--quoteo(post=1729407:date=Sep 28 2009, 05:32 PM:name=Opprobrious)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Opprobrious @ Sep 28 2009, 05:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729407"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The game is explicitly balanced around bhoping as an integral part of the alien game.
This kind of knowledge gap is what makes forums like these so frustrating.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And I once again find myself firmly seated behind this man. Bunnyhopping is an advanced alien skill (which can also add game to your jetpacking) that adds tons of depth to the game. Not every skill that a game has needs to be completely available or transparent at the first launching. In Super Smash Bros. Melee it was <b>years</b> before I heard about and then found out how to wavedash. That simple mechanic keeps me from playing the new Wii Smash Bros: I find it is missing that extra bit of gameplay depth that melee had before it.
While not everyone plays NS for the sole reason of bunnyhopping, it should be looked upon as one of the many skills of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1729456:date=Sep 28 2009, 11:21 PM:name=Invader_Scoot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Invader_Scoot @ Sep 28 2009, 11:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729456"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And I once again find myself firmly seated behind this man. Bunnyhopping is an advanced alien skill (which can also add game to your jetpacking) that adds tons of depth to the game. Not every skill that a game will allow one to do needs to be completely available or transparent at the first launching. In Super Smash Bros. Melee it was <b>years</b> before I heard about and then found out how to wavedash. That simple mechanic keeps me from playing the new Wii Smash Bros: I find it is missing that extra bit of gameplay depth that melee had before it.
While not everyone plays NS for the sole reason of bunnyhopping, it should be looked upon as one of the many skills of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1729416:date=Sep 28 2009, 06:46 PM:name=Opprobrious)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Opprobrious @ Sep 28 2009, 06:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729416"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why not just give all marines auto-aim so it's fair to all?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your complete and utter systematic failure of even trying to resemble or considering that your posts could contain any sliver of tact or class makes me really dislike you. You keep saying the same thing over and over and over, thinking that repetition will make whatever you are saying valid. It does not. All it does is incite people who have time to kill to support your almost comedic argument. You are not even giving <i>valid</i> reasons why bunny hopping is good. I can accept that bunny hopping could be a good thing, but you are actually convincing me to reconsider that. You are actively persuading me to believe against what you are trying to convince me. That's astonishing.
In your 10 posts in this thread, you said "people who can't bunny hop don't know any better and are stupid" 8 times and "Aliens were balanced around bunny hopping in NS1" 3 times. There is also the post that I quoted, but that's not really an argument for anything. In this entire thread, you never said <i>once</i> why bunny hopping was good. Not once. You constantly just called people stupid that can't do it and repeated that NS1 aliens were balanced around having that ability (which is not at all relevant for NS2).
I come back from a perfectly enjoyable Moby concert to this mess. *sigh*
EDIT: durr, grammar. (With a second edit to fix another grammar mistake...*sigh*)
<!--quoteo(post=1729298:date=Sep 29 2009, 02:36 AM:name=Sirot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sirot @ Sep 29 2009, 02:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729298"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What I am saying, discussing bunny hopping is a lost cause.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> sirot nailed this thread on the head a long time ago
<!--quoteo(post=1729536:date=Sep 28 2009, 10:35 PM:name=steppin'razor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (steppin'razor @ Sep 28 2009, 10:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729536"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->sirot nailed this thread on the head a long time ago<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> not really
At the end of the day, bunnyhopping brings a skill to aliens that can always be improved upon and isnt just know/not know. If aliens didn't have this they would be boring to play.
Marines: Aim based Aliens: Movement based
It doesn't seem logical to want to remove an entire side of gameplay that pretty much defines the alien team. Bunnyhopping is pretty much the only movement skill around that fits and offers as much depth to the alien side as pure aiming does to the marine side. This isn't about pure bunnyhopping because that's just used to get around the map faster and that can easily be fixed but a massive part of it is the air control for dodging and speed boosts gained when circlestrafing round a corner into the face of a marine and if you watch any decent NS1 fragmovie the skulks in that just look like theyre doing a little leap to bite a guy's face off.
Complaining that new players can't bunnyhop is not a good argument against the actual mechanic. New players cant aim either, maybe we should give them auto-aim so they won't waste a shotgun when you drop it on them. Or perhaps they could go gorge while theyre still learning to bhop. Or play against players of their own standard for a while. Not being able to bunnyhop (as you can see if you go onto any NS1 server nowadays) is not a huge barrier to entry. Zaiko from torment/BM was one of the best skulks in Europe for years and he refused to use a 3jump or mousewheel as far as I know, but he still made good use of the dodging mechanics and small speed increases circlestrafing gives you.
The intuitive argument only holds sway when you implement it like it was implemented in NS1, but to be honest just copy the Painkiller way of bunnyhopping and it's easy enough to pick up. Hold forward and have queued jumps to get a speed increase. What would most people do if they played a game where their teammates were going faster and doing it by jumping a lot? It's a good compromise.
<!--quoteo(post=1729550:date=Sep 29 2009, 12:42 AM:name=steppin'razor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (steppin'razor @ Sep 29 2009, 12:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729550"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So months of backward and forward debating that goes no where is not a lost cause? You sir are optimistic<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What you are missing is the fact that the "bhopping debating" is about far more than aliens jumping around like frogs. It encompuses <b>air control</b>, skill based movement, twitch reflexes, game replayability, micro tactics, and more. While chained jumps and the need for scripts may be a thing of the past (I would love to see chained jumps remain), I hope to god air control and long term replayability are not.
If NS2 comes out feeling like a modern day strategic FPS, I won't be playing it. That point is worth debating into the ground.
Its not a question of "if gold source bhopping should be removed", its a question of "which parts of goldsource player control should be changed". I guarantee aspects of goldsource air control will be used in the development of NS2. Its not like they are going to open up the C++ and uncheck the box next to bhopping..its just not that simple. While there are a few bad aspects about bhopping there are far more great aspects. It would be outright arrogant to ignore the great aspects of bhopping and not attempt to recreate them.
I think you make valid points homicide (and Mu) and I am not saying your wrong. All I am just saying is that this debate never achieves anything but a divided community.
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
<!--quoteo(post=1729528:date=Sep 29 2009, 02:13 AM:name=Sirot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sirot @ Sep 29 2009, 02:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729528"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why not just give all marines auto-aim so it's fair to all?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There is also the post that I quoted, but that's not really an argument for anything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You might have missed the post he was responding to. It was a response to the suggestion that bunnyhopping be removed and base alien speed be increased in order to be "fair for all". If we're going that route, why not remove aim too?
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1729570:date=Sep 29 2009, 08:43 AM:name=a_civilian)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (a_civilian @ Sep 29 2009, 08:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729570"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is also the post that I quoted, but that's not really an argument for anything. You might have missed the post he was responding to. It was a response to the suggestion that bunnyhopping be removed and base alien speed be increased in order to be "fair for all". If we're going that route, why not remove aim too?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You have a good point <b>civilian</b>, but to a person who doesn't know much about bhop it wouldn't make much sense. As a result, I don't think that it is a good analogy to use when explaining the value of bhop to others. Aiming is something everyone has to do and can't be avoided. To a competitive player bhop is the same way, but to most other players this is not the case. In this way the analogy is completely lost on the group you're trying to reach.
Getting away from the bunnyhop argument going on and back to the original discussion, I think its pretty much necessary that the aliens be capable of some acrobatics (dodging and whatnot) in NS2. They can't rely on superior numbers to get the job done, and need something to fall back on when stealth and ambush tactics aren't a realistic option (defending a hive, for example). And it would be incredibly boring to just boost health so that they can survive to melee range.
Marines not so much - they should rely more on teamwork and individual aim than on things like jumping around to avoid getting hit. (and try to avoid areas where they would be at a disadvantage, obviously)
So in a sense it should be arcadey (aliens) vs realistic (marines)
<!--quoteo(post=1729570:date=Sep 29 2009, 08:43 AM:name=a_civilian)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (a_civilian @ Sep 29 2009, 08:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729570"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is also the post that I quoted, but that's not really an argument for anything. You might have missed the post he was responding to. It was a response to the suggestion that bunnyhopping be removed and base alien speed be increased in order to be "fair for all". If we're going that route, why not remove aim too?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because it's a gross exaggeration? (And I won't go further into it because I don't want to debate a <b>feature that no longer exists</b>).
I don't care the least about bunny hopping (I said what I needed to say a long time ago, see page 1). I am personally here to antagonize Opprobrious because he is trying to segregate the community by calling anyone who can't bunny hop stupid or ignorant.
Comments
The game is explicitly balanced around bhoping as an integral part of the alien game.
This kind of knowledge gap is what makes forums like these so frustrating.
That is the most important thing, if yes... then there is nothing we can do about it.
If no, Then stop whining because it is just a glitched way to go faster.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) Yes they did
2) That is NOT the most important thing, what the developers intended doesn't matter WHAT SO EVER.
3) Do you believe in god?
...
?
edit: Why not make the aliens a bit faster runners so it is fair for all and they don't look like idiot frogs jumping around all over?
?
edit: Why not make the aliens a bit faster runners so it is fair for all and they don't look like idiot frogs jumping around all over?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why you gotta hate on frogs?
Ok now that is just a stupid idea.
Sorry to go completely off-topic, but I just <a href="http://www.losethegame.com/" target="_blank">lost the game</a>. :(
What if you decide not to play?
?
edit: Why not make the aliens a bit faster runners so it is fair for all and they don't look like idiot frogs jumping around all over?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iv-Ky5duveE" target="_blank">Idiot frogs?</a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jzyi4XF0jKk" target="_blank">Look like aliens to me.</a>
Are you serious?
dont be noob serious
dont be noob serious<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Even poonzer knows.
dud that wud make the game so much funner , good idea. becuz alieons are too fast to kill sometimes.
I never realised not playing was an option. :O
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->*Opprobrious<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
This kind of knowledge gap is what makes forums like these so frustrating.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And I once again find myself firmly seated behind this man. Bunnyhopping is an advanced alien skill (which can also add game to your jetpacking) that adds tons of depth to the game. Not every skill that a game has needs to be completely available or transparent at the first launching. In Super Smash Bros. Melee it was <b>years</b> before I heard about and then found out how to wavedash. That simple mechanic keeps me from playing the new Wii Smash Bros: I find it is missing that extra bit of gameplay depth that melee had before it.
While not everyone plays NS for the sole reason of bunnyhopping, it should be looked upon as one of the many skills of the game.
While not everyone plays NS for the sole reason of bunnyhopping, it should be looked upon as one of the many skills of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no buny hop is ######. sorry bro.
Your complete and utter systematic failure of even trying to resemble or considering that your posts could contain any sliver of tact or class makes me really dislike you. You keep saying the same thing over and over and over, thinking that repetition will make whatever you are saying valid. It does not. All it does is incite people who have time to kill to support your almost comedic argument. You are not even giving <i>valid</i> reasons why bunny hopping is good. I can accept that bunny hopping could be a good thing, but you are actually convincing me to reconsider that. You are actively persuading me to believe against what you are trying to convince me. That's astonishing.
In your 10 posts in this thread, you said "people who can't bunny hop don't know any better and are stupid" 8 times and "Aliens were balanced around bunny hopping in NS1" 3 times. There is also the post that I quoted, but that's not really an argument for anything. In this entire thread, you never said <i>once</i> why bunny hopping was good. Not once. You constantly just called people stupid that can't do it and repeated that NS1 aliens were balanced around having that ability (which is not at all relevant for NS2).
I come back from a perfectly enjoyable Moby concert to this mess. *sigh*
EDIT: durr, grammar. (With a second edit to fix another grammar mistake...*sigh*)
sirot nailed this thread on the head a long time ago
not really
Marines: Aim based
Aliens: Movement based
It doesn't seem logical to want to remove an entire side of gameplay that pretty much defines the alien team. Bunnyhopping is pretty much the only movement skill around that fits and offers as much depth to the alien side as pure aiming does to the marine side. This isn't about pure bunnyhopping because that's just used to get around the map faster and that can easily be fixed but a massive part of it is the air control for dodging and speed boosts gained when circlestrafing round a corner into the face of a marine and if you watch any decent NS1 fragmovie the skulks in that just look like theyre doing a little leap to bite a guy's face off.
Complaining that new players can't bunnyhop is not a good argument against the actual mechanic. New players cant aim either, maybe we should give them auto-aim so they won't waste a shotgun when you drop it on them. Or perhaps they could go gorge while theyre still learning to bhop. Or play against players of their own standard for a while. Not being able to bunnyhop (as you can see if you go onto any NS1 server nowadays) is not a huge barrier to entry. Zaiko from torment/BM was one of the best skulks in Europe for years and he refused to use a 3jump or mousewheel as far as I know, but he still made good use of the dodging mechanics and small speed increases circlestrafing gives you.
The intuitive argument only holds sway when you implement it like it was implemented in NS1, but to be honest just copy the Painkiller way of bunnyhopping and it's easy enough to pick up. Hold forward and have queued jumps to get a speed increase. What would most people do if they played a game where their teammates were going faster and doing it by jumping a lot? It's a good compromise.
What you are missing is the fact that the "bhopping debating" is about far more than aliens jumping around like frogs. It encompuses <b>air control</b>, skill based movement, twitch reflexes, game replayability, micro tactics, and more. While chained jumps and the need for scripts may be a thing of the past (I would love to see chained jumps remain), I hope to god air control and long term replayability are not.
If NS2 comes out feeling like a modern day strategic FPS, I won't be playing it. That point is worth debating into the ground.
Its not a question of "if gold source bhopping should be removed", its a question of "which parts of goldsource player control should be changed". I guarantee aspects of goldsource air control will be used in the development of NS2. Its not like they are going to open up the C++ and uncheck the box next to bhopping..its just not that simple. While there are a few bad aspects about bhopping there are far more great aspects. It would be outright arrogant to ignore the great aspects of bhopping and not attempt to recreate them.
There is also the post that I quoted, but that's not really an argument for anything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You might have missed the post he was responding to. It was a response to the suggestion that bunnyhopping be removed and base alien speed be increased in order to be "fair for all". If we're going that route, why not remove aim too?
You might have missed the post he was responding to. It was a response to the suggestion that bunnyhopping be removed and base alien speed be increased in order to be "fair for all". If we're going that route, why not remove aim too?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have a good point <b>civilian</b>, but to a person who doesn't know much about bhop it wouldn't make much sense. As a result, I don't think that it is a good analogy to use when explaining the value of bhop to others. Aiming is something everyone has to do and can't be avoided. To a competitive player bhop is the same way, but to most other players this is not the case. In this way the analogy is completely lost on the group you're trying to reach.
Marines not so much - they should rely more on teamwork and individual aim than on things like jumping around to avoid getting hit. (and try to avoid areas where they would be at a disadvantage, obviously)
So in a sense it should be arcadey (aliens) vs realistic (marines)
You might have missed the post he was responding to. It was a response to the suggestion that bunnyhopping be removed and base alien speed be increased in order to be "fair for all". If we're going that route, why not remove aim too?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because it's a gross exaggeration? (And I won't go further into it because I don't want to debate a <b>feature that no longer exists</b>).
I don't care the least about bunny hopping (I said what I needed to say a long time ago, see page 1). I am personally here to antagonize Opprobrious because he is trying to segregate the community by calling anyone who can't bunny hop stupid or ignorant.
The best thing about bhop is that it looks like something aliens would do and doesn't look arcadey at all when they do it. Marines, maybe.