Sooo... any idea on the arcadyness of NS2?
-Diesel-
Join Date: 2009-09-13 Member: 68769Members
Join Date: 2009-09-13 Member: 68769Members
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SEfJf6pCvE&hd=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SEfJf6pCvE&hd=1</a>
Ok look at that video.. I guess since the half life engine was used was the reason why everybody hopped around and quick changed weapons like some kinda CS in space.
Does anybody know if the team is aiming at recreating the same gameplay, with jumping around and quick changing, that kinda stuff.
Or will the game be more polished so people wouldn't be able to bunny hop all over and quick change every 3 seconds... and more CS non-sense.
Pretty much I'm asking: Will NS2 have that kind of CS arcade feel? Or it be a bit slower and more organized? Because all that jumping around choas seems to take away from possible teamwork that could be happening.
Now I have no idea whether you guys would know or not, but I'm just asking.
How do you guys feel on the matter? Would you want it to be CS like or something else?
Ok look at that video.. I guess since the half life engine was used was the reason why everybody hopped around and quick changed weapons like some kinda CS in space.
Does anybody know if the team is aiming at recreating the same gameplay, with jumping around and quick changing, that kinda stuff.
Or will the game be more polished so people wouldn't be able to bunny hop all over and quick change every 3 seconds... and more CS non-sense.
Pretty much I'm asking: Will NS2 have that kind of CS arcade feel? Or it be a bit slower and more organized? Because all that jumping around choas seems to take away from possible teamwork that could be happening.
Now I have no idea whether you guys would know or not, but I'm just asking.
How do you guys feel on the matter? Would you want it to be CS like or something else?
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Yeah that is another reason why we need localized chat.
So he could stand next to the guy who is apparently on the thing and yell at him w/o screwing every1 else over.
I fail to see how <i>lastinv</i> and <i>+jump</i> detracts from teamwork. It does amuse me that everyone uses CS as an example of what not to do, even people on opposing sides of an argument. Anyway, I don't know what thing you're talking about, but I'm not on it.
When I play semi realistic shooters, I feel the passiveness limits my options and forces me to play in a way I don't like. When I play DM games, I don't feel that tingle of strategical possibilities and ways of interpreting the game. NS, even with all the flaws and limits in it, manages to combine the best from both types.
... And stop with the CS comparsions. I highly doubt you understand CS if you compare it with NS. I can't say I'd understand even a bit of the finesse in it, but the differences are clearly visible already.
But NS2 is from what i know more teamplay based then the first game.
If i want CS like game, then ill play CS. So really whats the point of getting a new game if its going to be the same as one you allready have (unless its a sequal ofc)
Thats all i can bother to replay.
That being said I say we remove all guns from NS2.
Seriously though, a little NS2 arcadiness couldn't hurt, as long as there's a robust and deep game play backbone to it. Which we know there will be!
I really really hope NS2 retains some of that style.
You obvisously have NO idea what CS ia about. CS is about the opposite of what you are talking about. Ironically CS is more realistic than NS and that is what YOU would like. So you should have said that NS should be more like CS :>
But dont get me wrong here - I dont want NS to be realistic like CS - that would take the fun out of it. I want to be able to kick some alien ass with my skill and not depend on the luck of maybe hitting my targets because the rcoil of the weapons makes it impossible to aim while jumping for example.
Arcadeness is what ROCKS in NS, its what lets you get so much better over time. If you can only walk slowly around and shoot while you are standing around - where is the room for improvement? You could learn to aim better... yay :/
I come from a Quake playing bakground. I prefer a good gameplay over realism. Realism sucks, i get enough of that in RL :3
THIS is arcade and i don't want ns to be anywhere near this. I liked ns1 the way it was (minus the bhop of course) and i think ns2 should be similiar to this. Something between HLDM/quake and ArmA/Project reality, you know ;) . If the marines will play just like the survivors in L4D i am fully satisfied. The aliens should be a little more agile but again w/o bhopping.
Oh, and each of the marine weapons has a different draw time. It isn't an instant switch by any stretch of the imagination.
From what I've seen described, NS2 will be a lot less about strategy and much more like TF2 with some superficial organization coming from the (multiple) commander(s).
Well they didn't learn it because it didn't interest them; some people like other aspects of NS than bhop.
That's always been the main problem in the bhop "discussions". People who don't like bhop don't understand why others do and people who do like it don't understand why others don't.
Counter Strike is a lot less-arcadey than NS. In fact it's a lot like all of the modern games which are all CS clones. Yes, your favorite Medal Of Honor is a counter strike clone. Yes your favorite Battlefield is a counter strike clone. If you really don't want NS to become another game in the huge pool of abortions such as the games made by Activision or endorsed by EA, movement skill needs to be emphasized.
- Yours Truly,
a concerned customer
It's not a discussion.
One group is speaking from a position of ignorance. The other from a position of knowledge.
All bhopers at one point did not know how to bhop. However, they have the advantage of remembering what it was like to not have that skill. Since they are aware of both sides of the argument, their judgment should be given greater weight.
It's like a layperson arguing with a doctor about medical treatment. The rational position is to listen to the trained professional's opinions about the treatment.
The ultimate question is why haven't these "hardcore" NS fans learned such an important and basic skill around which the GAME IS BALANCED.
One group is speaking from a position of ignorance. The other from a position of knowledge.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, they just don't care. It's not fun for them so they ignore it. I'm sorry it's hard for you to accept that.
One group is speaking from a position of ignorance. The other from a position of knowledge.
All bhopers at one point did not know how to bhop. However, they have the advantage of remembering what it was like to not have that skill. Since they are aware of both sides of the argument, their judgment should be given greater weight.
It's like a layperson arguing with a doctor about medical treatment. The rational position is to listen to the trained professional's opinions about the treatment.
The ultimate question is why haven't these "hardcore" NS fans learned such an important and basic skill around which the GAME IS BALANCED.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Knowing how to bunny hop is NOT equivalent spending 8 to 10 years in academia and doing 80 to 100 hour a week as a intern resident. Being elitist does not at all help your creditability.
I argued against bunny hopping for a really long time. Eventually I gave up on it. Not because the other person was right, which I still don't think is the case, but because we can do nothing to change each other's minds. Both sides have valid points, it is just impossible to figure out who's are more valid. Worse yet, as people argue and debate, they become more righteous and more vindictive.
What I am saying, discussing bunny hopping is a lost cause.
They don't ignore it. That is factually wrong. How can they possibly judge how fun it is without actually experiencing it? That's nonsense.
Almost every time I play on a non-evolvens server, someone complains that they "hate scripting bhopers". These forums are full of people who argue that NS2 SHOULD NOT HAVE any advanced movement skill involved. Sure there may be people who don't bhop(or even know what it is).
They aren't the ones sitting on the official forums arguing against it.
One group is speaking from a position of ignorance. The other from a position of knowledge.
All bhopers at one point did not know how to bhop. However, they have the advantage of remembering what it was like to not have that skill. Since they are aware of both sides of the argument, their judgment should be given greater weight.
It's like a layperson arguing with a doctor about medical treatment. The rational position is to listen to the trained professional's opinions about the treatment.
The ultimate question is why haven't these "hardcore" NS fans learned such an important and basic skill around which the GAME IS BALANCED.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So that means if you bunny hop you are far superior in knowledge and skill. Great.
In before the lock.
You're right, I have to kill someone before I can make a judgment on whether killing people is something I want to do. Obviously I'm speaking from a position of ignorance because I don't want to kill people even though I've never done it. I'm not comparing killing people to bhop, I'm just showing you why your argument is rubbish.
1. NS1 is balanced around alien bhop
2. Bhop is a basic skill that every mediocre player should be able to preform.
3. Almost without exception, those that oppose bhop on this forum cannot preform this basic activity.
Are you denying any of these premises?
For the record, I would add the caveat of "in competitive matches" to both one and two because they don't apply to 90% of NS games played.
And if you think that call of duty and CS are realistic... you are sadly mistaken my office dwelling friends.
They don't learn it because they don't have the physical coordination to complete the task or they are utterly ignorant of game mechanics. That is a fact. What they "find fun" is irrelevant and frankly unknowable. Your hubris in trying to speak for them all is breathtaking. I'm sure plenty of people who have seen bhoping but don't know how it's done and would LOVE to learn.
Personally, I've taught dozens of people to bhop. All of those that learned enjoyed it. I have tried to teach a few who got frustrated and quit before learning the skill. They became the most vociferous opponents. Often they will complain about the "learning curve" rather than admit their own deficits.
NS1 is balanced around 6 v 6. Obviously, it is assumed that those players WILL KNOW HOW TO PLAY THE GAME. If your hypothetical public matches are full of players that don't know how to play, it is IMPOSSIBLE TO BALANCE for them.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And if you think that call of duty and CS are realistic... you are sadly mistaken my office dwelling friends.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Post your DD214 or stop talking about realistic combat.
Well you have people who know the ins and outs of the game, who've sunk countless hours into this game, who have played in CAL/ANSL/ENSL who have actually seen the bright light of actual, non-perceived teamwork on one side. You have the g4b2s level players who accuse the other of cheating on the other side. Should the opinions be weighted equally?
(This forum has a disproportionate amount of g4b2s level players.)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I argued against bunny hopping for a really long time. Eventually I gave up on it. Not because the other person was right, which I still don't think is the case, but because we can do nothing to change each other's minds. Both sides have valid points, it is just impossible to figure out who's are more valid. Worse yet, as people argue and debate, they become more righteous and more vindictive.
What I am saying, discussing bunny hopping is a lost cause.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's how you perceive it. Put yourself in a position of a creationist arguing against a biologist. You will perceive it as an impossible battle with both sides locked into their arguments until death. But the reality is that the creationists will improve their understanding, learn to bunnyhop and continue on to see how wrong and foolish they were at some point.
The <BAD> clan was at the epicenter of ignorance at one point going as far as banning all CAL ids from the site at some point. This is until they recently started seeing the beauty of actual teamwork in this game which is impossible to achieve outside of league play. Bunnyhopping is essential for league play and you can be sure that they had to at least learn what it is.
-Diesel- less arcadey is not the same thing as realistic. They are simply <i>more</i> realistic than ns in that the game physics at least resemble realistic conditions.
I'm not claiming to speak for all of them, just pointing out your hubris is assuming that all people who don't know how to bunnyhop are physically incapable or ignorant. I'm sure that there are people who want to learn, and that they come to you because bhop is interesting to them. Your mistake is assuming it is interesting to everyone.
<!--quoteo(post=1729313:date=Sep 28 2009, 01:31 PM:name=Opprobrious)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Opprobrious @ Sep 28 2009, 01:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1729313"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS1 is balanced around 6 v 6. Obviously, it is assumed that those players WILL KNOW HOW TO PLAY THE GAME. If your hypothetical public matches are full of players that don't know how to play, it is IMPOSSIBLE TO BALANCE for them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Balance is a completely different animal from what we've been talking about so don't put any words in my mouth regrading that. As far as balance WRT casual and competitve is concerned see my sig.
(This forum has a disproportionate amount of g4b2s level players.)
That's how you perceive it. Put yourself in a position of a creationist arguing against a biologist. You will perceive it as an impossible battle with both sides locked into their arguments until death. But the reality is that the creationists will improve their understanding, learn to bunnyhop and continue on to see how wrong and foolish they were at some point.
The <BAD> clan was at the epicenter of ignorance at one point going as far as banning all CAL ids from the site at some point. This is until they recently started seeing the beauty of actual teamwork in this game which is impossible to achieve outside of league play. Bunnyhopping is essential for league play and you can be sure that they had to at least learn what it is.
-Diesel- less arcadey is not the same thing as realistic. They are simply <i>more</i> realistic than ns in that the game physics at least resemble realistic conditions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do not care if the game is realistic, I think the community doesn't want it that way either. I'm just worried that people will be bhoping at lighting speeds and not team-working, going rouge and commando or what ever.
THAT is what I mean by CS arcady feel, everyone does their own thing and teamwork is Very VERY rare.
It has been observed that the more fast paced a game is, the less teamwork is going on.
(talking about pub games only)
Take COD for example, you die and respawn in 5 seconds and turn a corner... 3 enemies. CS, it only takes 8 seconds to encounter the entire enemy team. Quake wars... you get on a husky it takes you to the battle in seconds and you fight die respawn repeat.
Games like project reality or ARMA 2.. since the gameplay is a bit slower (slower =/= bad) teammates actually need each other to get stuff done, w/o teammates the game isn't as fun. I hear people talking about NS and the amazing amount of teamwork that is required from each side yadda yadda yadda.... Yeah, add bunnyhopping that lets you go lightning fast... it <b>will</b> reduce the teamwork.
Plus who cares about CAL players anyways? They take the <u>Game</u> way too seriously.
<b>Main Argument <i>Against</i> Bunny Hop:</b>
Listed as the main mantras for NS2 are "Avoid hidden modifiers" and "Visual clarity; do visuals suggest function?". Learning how to bunny hop is a taught skill, it is not learned. If a person plays 100 hours of NS1 (or NS2) without outside interference or tutorials(but playing with other players), he or she will learn what every keyboard command does, the function of every ability (and how much damage it does around) and how each side should play. They will be able to write a fairly comprehensive manual for the game. They will learn the game through trial and error because they weren't assisted by anything, but they will learn the game nevertheless. During those 100 hours of game play, it is unlikely that he or she will learn bunny hopping. It may happen, but I wouldn't bet on it. Even seeing other players do the bunny hope does not really reveal how to do it. Essentially, Bunny Hopping is not intuitive and that's why it should not belong in NS2 (for the record, it is not returning).
<b>Main Argument <i>For</i> Bunny Hop:</b>
Listed as the main mantras for NS2 are "Depth first, accessibility later", "Easy to learn, difficult to master" and "Control is King". Bunny hopping essentially makes a simple action of moving into a skill, adding immense depth to the game. This is called advanced moment. A person can play hundred of hours of NS1 (or NS2) and if he or she feel likes they are still have room for improving, they play a few hundred more. Advanced movement helps give the game give lasting power because it stands beside fundamental skills like aiming, awareness (map and player reactions) and proper weapon/ability usage. Once you learn the basics of the skill, there is always a room for little improvement. Essentially, advanced moment gives a players a outlet to show their skill and that's why it should belong in NS2 (for the record, bunny hop is not returning, but the developers are adding their own version of advance movement).
EDIT: Opprobrious. Please understand the following. If a person can't do <i>something</i> but is well-versed in that <i>something</i>, he or she can still discuss it and give valid opinions on that said <i>something</i>. Your argument of "durr durr, you never tried it, how can you know it's bad" while disregarding any insight that person may have on the subject matter is immature and frankly, annoying.
EDIT 2: Grammar fixes.