Disabling Abilities
MasterPTG
Join Date: 2006-11-30 Member: 58780Members
Join Date: 2006-11-30 Member: 58780Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Or How I learned to hate them.</div>Many people have been suggesting disabling features for the aliens so that the marines are adversely affected for a certain time-frame.
I think this is a horrible idea, unless the marines can avoid being disabled. If you look at the four disabling functions in NS at the moment, you have web, devour, stomp and death. Every other ability lets the marines do whatever they want without being encumbered in any way. Why are these different from many of the current suggestions? Web, devour, stomp, and death all can--in theory--be avoided.
-If you're webbed, you shouldn't have run into the web or been charging a gorge with hive 3 abilities.
-If you're devoured, you shouldn't have been in that spot.
-If you're stomped, you shouldn't have been standing there.
And if you're dead, you could have avoided death if you were better at the game (too bad you weren't good enough...). All of these disables leave the marine as a fully functioning, fun character to play until he does something stupid or is bad at the game or is just a bit unlucky.
Many of the suggestions for alt-fire (both for marines and aliens) leave no doubt that A) The marines might very well get some sort of stun weapon or melee attack that disables the aliens from a fully functioning character and B) The aliens might very well be able to stun, disable, grapple, disorient, etc the marine character so he's not in a fully functioning character.
Why is being disabled or disoriented bad? Look at the most complained about skills for NS. No one is having fun if they're webbed and totally helpless, because there is little or no skill involved in being able to walk back at about 1/2mph. In addition, how fun is it being devoured? O right, it's NOT fun. However, the difference between the new suggestions and these old disables is the ease at which they can be avoided. If every skulk has a 'pounce' that disables a marine, it's going to be pretty hard trying to avoid it. If every skulk has the ability to puke on a marine to limit their vision, it's going to be pretty hard to avoid it.
I've played L4D quite a bit, and I hate the game. It's a ragetastic POS with great gameplay dynamics that relies on disabling (and meanwhile causing much shouting, talking, and frustration to get things off of them) to do damage to the survivors. These disables cause much rage in public servers, and even more than that, frustration. If you don't have good teammates that get infected off of you, you are as good as dead. Hardly anyone even wants to play survivor because of it. Sure they'll play it, but they play it to get to play the special infected so they can rage the other team with the disables.
There is a reason that disables are not common in FPS super competitive games: they make people frustrated and angry. How fun is it to not be able to do anything, or be hindered while trying to accomplish something as simple as moving or shooting? Not only that, but it reduces the skill required to play. A noob could disable a super good player and void his skill instantly by disabling or stunning him. Might be fun for the noob, but for the skilled player, it's not so much fun.
If you introduce disables that can be overcome (such as being conc'd in TFC), then the issue is not nearly as bad. But if you make a common character be able to disable other common characters, I think that's a mistake that will generate frustration and anger. In any case, there is -nothing- fun about not being able to move, shoot or see properly. Thereby, any skill that disables the marines (or aliens) will not help you increase the fun factor. If the disables can be easily overcome through a 'skilled' devise (such as conc-aiming in TFC), then I think that's reasonable.
Also, it was mentioned somewhere that the alien commander might have an AOE disable. I'm not sure how often or powerful the AOE is, so I'll be silent about it. I'm mostly concerned about the common characters being able to disable other common characters (commanders not included).
I think this is a horrible idea, unless the marines can avoid being disabled. If you look at the four disabling functions in NS at the moment, you have web, devour, stomp and death. Every other ability lets the marines do whatever they want without being encumbered in any way. Why are these different from many of the current suggestions? Web, devour, stomp, and death all can--in theory--be avoided.
-If you're webbed, you shouldn't have run into the web or been charging a gorge with hive 3 abilities.
-If you're devoured, you shouldn't have been in that spot.
-If you're stomped, you shouldn't have been standing there.
And if you're dead, you could have avoided death if you were better at the game (too bad you weren't good enough...). All of these disables leave the marine as a fully functioning, fun character to play until he does something stupid or is bad at the game or is just a bit unlucky.
Many of the suggestions for alt-fire (both for marines and aliens) leave no doubt that A) The marines might very well get some sort of stun weapon or melee attack that disables the aliens from a fully functioning character and B) The aliens might very well be able to stun, disable, grapple, disorient, etc the marine character so he's not in a fully functioning character.
Why is being disabled or disoriented bad? Look at the most complained about skills for NS. No one is having fun if they're webbed and totally helpless, because there is little or no skill involved in being able to walk back at about 1/2mph. In addition, how fun is it being devoured? O right, it's NOT fun. However, the difference between the new suggestions and these old disables is the ease at which they can be avoided. If every skulk has a 'pounce' that disables a marine, it's going to be pretty hard trying to avoid it. If every skulk has the ability to puke on a marine to limit their vision, it's going to be pretty hard to avoid it.
I've played L4D quite a bit, and I hate the game. It's a ragetastic POS with great gameplay dynamics that relies on disabling (and meanwhile causing much shouting, talking, and frustration to get things off of them) to do damage to the survivors. These disables cause much rage in public servers, and even more than that, frustration. If you don't have good teammates that get infected off of you, you are as good as dead. Hardly anyone even wants to play survivor because of it. Sure they'll play it, but they play it to get to play the special infected so they can rage the other team with the disables.
There is a reason that disables are not common in FPS super competitive games: they make people frustrated and angry. How fun is it to not be able to do anything, or be hindered while trying to accomplish something as simple as moving or shooting? Not only that, but it reduces the skill required to play. A noob could disable a super good player and void his skill instantly by disabling or stunning him. Might be fun for the noob, but for the skilled player, it's not so much fun.
If you introduce disables that can be overcome (such as being conc'd in TFC), then the issue is not nearly as bad. But if you make a common character be able to disable other common characters, I think that's a mistake that will generate frustration and anger. In any case, there is -nothing- fun about not being able to move, shoot or see properly. Thereby, any skill that disables the marines (or aliens) will not help you increase the fun factor. If the disables can be easily overcome through a 'skilled' devise (such as conc-aiming in TFC), then I think that's reasonable.
Also, it was mentioned somewhere that the alien commander might have an AOE disable. I'm not sure how often or powerful the AOE is, so I'll be silent about it. I'm mostly concerned about the common characters being able to disable other common characters (commanders not included).
Comments
I think this is a horrible idea, unless the marines can avoid being disabled. If you look at the four disabling functions in NS at the moment, you have web, devour, stomp and death. Every other ability lets the marines do whatever they want without being encumbered in any way. Why are these different from many of the current suggestions? Web, devour, stomp, and death all can--in theory--be avoided.
-If you're webbed, you shouldn't have run into the web or been charging a gorge with hive 3 abilities.
-If you're devoured, you shouldn't have been in that spot.
-If you're stomped, you shouldn't have been standing there.
And if you're dead, you could have avoided death if you were better at the game (too bad you weren't good enough...). All of these disables leave the marine as a fully functioning, fun character to play until he does something stupid or is bad at the game or is just a bit unlucky.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Keep in mind that all four of your avoiding methods here could be used for ANY disabling ability possible, so what makes you think we won't be able to do that for the possible NS2 disabling abilities?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why is being disabled or disoriented bad? Look at the most complained about skills for NS. No one is having fun if they're webbed and totally helpless, because there is little or no skill involved in being able to walk back at about 1/2mph. In addition, how fun is it being devoured? O right, it's NOT fun. However, the difference between the new suggestions and these old disables is the ease at which they can be avoided. If every skulk has a 'pounce' that disables a marine, it's going to be pretty hard trying to avoid it. If every skulk has the ability to puke on a marine to limit their vision, it's going to be pretty hard to avoid it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First off, I agree that it sucks to be webbed/devoured, but you can't honestly say that you disliked munching on a webbed rine, or didn't enjoy digesting one.
How can you be so sure it would be easy to pounce or puke as a skulk if it were available? It could possibly be a very hard skill to master, removing the monotonicity of it entirely (I realize monotonicity is a math term, but I'm sure you get what I mean).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've played L4D quite a bit, and I hate the game. It's a ragetastic POS with great gameplay dynamics that relies on disabling (and meanwhile causing much shouting, talking, and frustration to get things off of them) to do damage to the survivors. These disables cause much rage in public servers, and even more than that, frustration. If you don't have good teammates that get infected off of you, you are as good as dead. Hardly anyone even wants to play survivor because of it. Sure they'll play it, but they play it to get to play the special infected so they can rage the other team with the disables.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Never played L4D but based on it's popularity I doubt it's as boring as you make it sound.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is a reason that disables are not common in FPS super competitive games: they make people frustrated and angry. How fun is it to not be able to do anything, or be hindered while trying to accomplish something as simple as moving or shooting? Not only that, but it reduces the skill required to play. A noob could disable a super good player and void his skill instantly by disabling or stunning him. Might be fun for the noob, but for the skilled player, it's not so much fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again, a disabling ability could be very hard to use properly and it's possible not any noob could make good use of it.
Seems to me like you've always been on the crappy end of those disabling abilities :S
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you introduce disables that can be overcome (such as being conc'd in TFC), then the issue is not nearly as bad. But if you make a common character be able to disable other common characters, I think that's a mistake that will generate frustration and anger. In any case, there is -nothing- fun about not being able to move, shoot or see properly. Thereby, any skill that disables the marines (or aliens) will not help you increase the fun factor. If the disables can be easily overcome through a 'skilled' devise (such as conc-aiming in TFC), then I think that's reasonable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree entirely.
This isn't a flame of direct attack towards you, just something to think about.
and monotonicity is at best a made up math term :P
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Put uncounterable "dead once you're snagged" disabling abilities in the hands of players and that is complete and utter foolishness.
As for the post above; Getting behind a marine is very easy. Just pick a spot where there is traffic and wait. Then jump from the ceiling at the right time.
Not looking at your six o'clock every two seconds should not be grounds for automatic insta-kill. Getting ambushed by a skulk from behind is bad enough; let's not make it absurd.
Stomp = Jetpack
Web = Welder/Nades
Devour = Teamwork
This applies for the possibility of this 'Grapple' attack. If anything it's going to stop Rambowing rines.
* - Excluding ethereal shift cause that's an xmenu upgrade and has nothing to do with Unknownworlds.
Stomp = Jetpack
Web = Welder/Nades
Devour = Teamwork<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't agree with devour being directly counterable by teamwork... its the odd one out in that list.
In NS1, this applied mostly to Devour and Stomp. Devour is insta win in a 1v1. However, with sufficient firepower or skilled movement of the Marine, the Onos would die rather easily. Similarly, Stomp could be avoided by spreading out so that the entire team isn't stomped at once and having jetpacks. The Onos was hindered due to the huge amount of adrenaline each of these abilities used, making it less likely for them to use Charge (if they have 3rd Hive) or to perma stun people.
For webs, you saw them coming usually, could weld OR nade them away, and for the most part I never had an issue with them. They don't let Gorges 1v1 you, and they are static avoidable disables and thus don't fall as strongly under the above definition. They do however cost a huge amount of adrenaline, making an actual cost to them.
Personally, I didn't mind the disables. Sure they weren't always the most fun, but they made you realize your vulnerability. Also, I strongly believe that it really helps enhance atmosphere and sometimes gives you a great break in between all the action.
The worst part of TF2 is getting hit by the Sandman. The worst part of NS is getting devoured. The worst part of DotA is getting permastunned or stunned for long periods. Losing control is an incredibly frustrating experience that is almost never fun. Even single player games show this: when they take control away from the player and enter a cutscene, a lot of people get annoyed. HL/HL2 even got rid of cutscenes and let you move around because they know how annoying it is to not be in control.
edit: and I forgot the worst game for this, L4D. Those guys have some sort of love affair with making the player watch himself get owned while he waits for a teammate to do the fun stuff. They are trying to promote teamwork but really they're just promoting hoping that your teammate is the guy who gets pounced or tongued or whatever, because it's only fun to be the one saving them.
Pretty much agree with everything said here.
It depends on the counter options indeed. In TF2 , there is nothing a heavy busy shooting can do against any incoming sandman ball - automatic stun for an already exposed class.
Whereas in L4D versus hunters become mere nuisances as long as you make sure your teammates can effortlessly save you.
I think stomp duration got cut in half because of that , being completely helpless while a mate gets devoured is rather frustrating. Shorter stomp means the onos needs better timing (or the devour target has a chance to escape) and marines can shoot intermittently at least.
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(L4D versus is one of the least fun multiplayer games I have ever played (but the campaign mode is so awesome I forgive it)... really hope the devs don't take any gameplay elements from l4d (apart from maybe rifle butt smacking as long as it doesn't stun or knockback)).
All the suggestions for a grapple for skulks and so on just seem to be a replacement for actual teamwork and skill: If you were good enough you wouldnt need to pin a marine, it's quite sufficient to dodge around a marine while biting them or getting a team mate to soak damage or focusing fire on a single target to remove them from the fight. Grapple mechanics are just replacing this with a one click-done style mechanism.
However the OP's arguments are pretty bad.
*So death is a disabling ability? I think the avoidability of Death, Stomp, Devour can be debated here. Web is the only one you can really avoid and anyway it only lasts like 1 second.
*The gameplay in L4D works very well for L4D. It a coop game it forces teamplay and only if you try to avoid the teamplay or downright play alone will you be frustrated by it.
No, if <i>your teammates</i> play for themselves you will be frustrated. Which makes you play for yourself, which makes your teammates play for themselves etc. ad nauseum.
That too. Either way it's not a flaw of the game. L4D can be very awesome if you play with the right people. Ideally 3 actual friends on LAN.
use a welder
tired of being eaten by an onos?
stick to your team mates so they shoot the onos down before it can escape
tired of being stomped?
get a jetpack!
everything has a counter..and thats wat makes ns great. just cause some people refuse to get a jetpack or rather go rambo just cause they are comfortable playing that way and refuse to change their tactics in game, its only their fault they get angry so much lol.
Why don't you point it out for us?
I agree that just taking attacks from L4D (pounce/tongue snare) is a bad idea, but much of the balance in L4D combat can be inspirational for ideas. One great L4D aspect is the ability to counter an ambush attack is you are situationally aware. You can defeat a tongue snare or pounce by listening and positioning to avoid and lessen the chances of a successful ambush. You can also properly time a melee bash to knock away a hunter pounce. You also have a split second to try to defeat the smokers tongue before you are disabled.
I believe if NS2 could incorporate these situational counters (mostly using the new melee bash), it would add more depth to combat. Currently, a well executed skulk ambush only leads to a slight advantage for the skulk. It doesn't result in any different tactics in the engagement. It becomes the standard circle strafing jumping dance.
Because of this I think some sort of grapple that does NOT disable is a good idea. It could be used to partially subdue (moderate recoil modifier and/or slowed/reduced agility). It would be counterable given situational awareness. I think more ambush tactics for the skulks repitore would add alot. I also think any grapple attack should be a difficult and risky manuever leaving a failed attacker vunerable. Thusly, it becomes a trade-off decision. This would also make these tactics less common but still threatening and frightening.
L4D is a perfect example of a great game centered around lots of excellent disabling abilities. But it shows us that disabling abilities are completely noncompetitive in an FPS. Since a goal of NS2 is to have a great competitive game, disabling abilities do not fit.
If you want to promote real team play, players need a real reason. Dieing a quick effortless death by way of pounce and immobilization is one of those ways, even the best player can't get out of a pounce all alone.
While I whole-heartedly agree that being immobilized for, lack of a better word, sucks... playing a game that forces great teamplay is ALOT more fun than an anything goes type scenario.
Striking a balance and finding out what does, and what doesn't work is hard to do, but it is possible.
It would probably be best to identify the types of acceptable effects marines should incur, and then deciding which ones add the most to the game.
Personally, I don't find easy kills fun, nor do I find being easily killed fun. One idea floating around is the skulk grapple, and while I think of scenarios like 3 skulks vs 3 marines... the skulks just jump down grapple them all and they die. BUT would the be that easy to do? Depending on how that ability is implemented it may never happen that way, and it could in fact be very balanced.
For example, the grapple could require 90% of your energy, and disables energy regeneration for 15 seconds, so if you fail, you're either running away or dead. So more often than not if said scenario happens, if one of those skulks fail, the marines would just wipe out the skulks very easily by knocking off the 1-2 skulks that succeeded, and shooting them to death.
So, while immobilizing does suck, it can really add a very great deal to the game, and when a good idea comes up, instead of shrieking in horror, think of a way it could work.
It's hilarious to watch people try and justify these abilities as a counter to "rambos". Guess what is a counter to rambos? Actual teamwork! If these rambos aren't using teamwork as you allege, why are you still unable to stop them? If one or two Marines are holding half the Alien team back and allowing their comrades to gain control of the rest of the map, isn't that teamwork? Skill communism is a label that I've mockingly embraced in the past, but the more I browse this forum, the more I wonder whether or not people keep making these arguments because they are unable to deal with players better than them through teamwork.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First off, I agree that it sucks to be webbed/devoured, but you can't honestly say that you disliked munching on a webbed rine, or didn't enjoy digesting one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't. It's zero challenge to land a couple of bites on an incapacitated marine or devour a marine and run back to the hive. I can see the need for a counter to Marines equipped with gear on the top of the tech tree, it's just the implementation that could use improvement. At least those abilities take a Gorge or Onos, neither of which can really get close to Marine groups without backup - can you imagine what would happen if Skulks could just leap in and take a Marine out of action?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That too. Either way it's not a flaw of the game. L4D can be very awesome if you play with the right people. Ideally 3 actual friends on LAN.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You sure have a funny definition of awesome. A game that isn't fun unless you have three competent teammates doesn't seem very awesome to me.
I think a new layer to skulk vs marines early game combat could be really helpful in creating interesting teamplay oppurtunities. I think a grapple type ability has potenial to provide this while being atmospheric and unique.
one of the most popular games in the world and 60% of the battles your in your stunned atleast once or twice
Currently it lowers Scout health to 95 and allows double jump. No information so far has been forthcoming on the stun mechanic, but they said it was being changed.
The Sandman really is the best example of the wider community's feelings regarding disabling abilities in FPS games. When I started playing NS again back in May or so, I'd forgotten about Stomp. Oh boy. It reminded me why I quit playing NS in the first place. An AOE spammable ranged stun which is almost always followed up by a 20 second stun-dot that you cannot escape from. Try selling that to a community which hated a ranged single target stun with a 20 second cooldown that also gave you 50% damage reduction when you were stunned.
one of the most popular games in the world and 60% of the battles your in your stunned atleast once or twice<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And that's the most frustrating part of the game. You can tell because Heroes of Newerth, the DotA ripoff, added a global cooldown to stuns to keep you from being stunned multiple times in a row.
It did? Hm... We appear to still be able to team gank w/ plenty of stuns....
Anyways, DotA the reason for stuns is because 1) the characters can take a beating 2) they can escape 3) they can do crap tons of damage if given the chance.
It's a gameplay mechanic alongside teleporting around the map, invisible watchers, buying equipment, constant AoE damage, nukes, DoTs, tanks, reflecting damage, and a crap ton of others. Not to mention about 3 different types of disables, AND an item specifically designed to allow you TO NOT BE DISABLED.