Personally I loved the disabling abilities in L4D.
You could avoid them if you paid attention (like you have 1 second to shoot the smoker as it pulls you towards it), your teammates almost always saved you if they could, and I would often just play through the campaigns to save as many people as I could. Also, you guys know there is a head to head L4D mode too right? It's a lot harder to arrange a "mass disable" in a PUG than it is to get your teammates to save you from a disable.
Which brings us to NS2. I think it would be fun shooting a skulk off the back of a teammate. I like saving people from disables. It's satisfying. Furthermore, I think most people would go out of their way to help you. Keep in mind, they get a kill for it and the skulk is immobile too so it's an easy kill for a marine. Yes it is irritating to be knocked down but that doesn't mean it's not good for game play overall. It isn't fun to be a "ghost" in counter-strike either but I've played on a CS server with instant respawns... some of the magic of the game is gone. If disabling abilities make marines show a little more caution when running around the level alone, I'm all for it.
Furthermore, it's not like this has to be a 1-click-to-grapple-to-death thing... I mean what if:
*Marine had to be at < 50% health for grapple to work. *Marine couldn't be grappled if he was holding knife/taser. *Skulk had to be behind marine. *Skulk wasn't even doing damage to marine... just pinning him so teammate could bite. Or it wasn't fatal if a second skulk didn't come bite the marine too. *What if you could drop a grenade when grappled or something?
I would love to see a skulk grapple at least tried in the alpha/beta. I think it would be pretty obvious if there was room for it in NS2 gameplay or not.
I played close to 150 hours of L4D versus mode, but I haven't played for months. It's fun, but it's not <!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->competitive<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->. That's why I don't play anymore, and it's the issue I was addressing in my post. Competition keeps the game alive in the long term.
I've gotta say... I dislike L4D... But not for any of the reasons you mentioned.
While disabling abilities are indeed present, they are just as counterable (if not more so) than disabling abilities in NS1.
A smoker's tongue can be countered as you can dodge it by walking behind anything that breaks LOS. That's difficult though. Much easier instead to shoot and kill the smoker, a low HP target with a large profile, in the time it takes them to deploy the tongue. You even get a few seconds of time to shoot in the direction of the tongue while being pulled to fight him off. You can even melee his tongue out of the air, although rare. A hunter's pounce can be stopped if you shoot him out of the air, or melee him out of the air dependent on timing. It's really not that hard, and I'm surprised you're complaining about it. A tank doesn't stun you unless he hits you with a brick. He stops to do a 3 second throw animation though, so its pretty easy to get out of line of sight. Furthermore, the brick has slow travel time, and a limited arcing range. A boomer has some knockback and visual impairment, but no actual stunning or can't do squat skill. Just shoot him before he approaches. He's loud and easy to hit with bullet spam.
All of the L4D stuns are super easy to counter, much easier than something like the Onos stomp. Without jetpacks, its not always that easy to avoid being stomped if the Onos is any good. It is possible in theory... but that's no different than the argument I'm making for the L4D disabling abilities above.
One thing I will agree on, however... Is that game developers are starting to dumb down what is teamwork. Teamwork doesn't mean absolute reliance on others. In L4D, if your team is scattered, your effectiveness is so severely diminished that you are useless. It's like having a heavy train stick together all the time. That's what L4D survivor mode is like: a microgame housed within NS1. (What a testament to how amazing NS is.) Teamwork should be the coordination of strategy, and that's something that fewer and fewer games are getting right. It's not by sticking together and watching each others backs are you being a team, but instead, working towards your own independent goals that amass to something more collaborative as an outcome. In NS, that means having some individual skulks piss off marines and draw them away from the group, or having a single skulk harass the comm chair to alleviate the assault on the hive. That skulk isn't paired with anyone, yet he's helping out the team massively. One skulk always on patrol downing RTs can win the game for his team, even though he works alone. Yet that is the essence of teamwork: individuals who have a coordinated plan, and execute it with the final objective of leading to mutual team victory.
BadMouthIt ceases to be exclusive when you can have a custom member titlJoin Date: 2004-05-21Member: 28815Members
Disabling abilities such as web and stomp sit well with me. Web is a hive 3 ability for the gorge and complements the gorge's role very well. Furthermore, there are only a set number of webs u can place around the map so you can't web all over the place. Webs are easy to see, can be countered very easily by either welders, grenades(the cheaper alternative) or GLs. The fact that web doesn't hold a marine up for a long period of time, is easily spotted and counterable, as well as being a hive 3 ability, makes it perfectly acceptable to me.
Stomp is fine, as it takes up a huge amount of adrenaline. It is also a hive 2 ability and the time for getting stunned by stomp is also relatively short. It is counterable by jetpacls, although this is not ideal since jetpacks take up a lot of res and expensive to the marine team. I would've like stomp better if you could avoid it by jumping or it took even more adrenaline to use. But other than that, I don't see any real issue on it since the onos cannot keep stomping u infinitely. And if it does, it has no energy left over for attack anyway.
Devour, is definitely annoying and I'm pretty glad it doesn't exist anymore. It was too easy for the aliens to use, even if you have to pay 75 res for the lifeform and wasn't fun for the marines either.
Now, to disabling abilities in general. I'm ok with it if it is for a short duration. I think everyone can overlook a few seconds of not moving. It does encourage teamwork since if you are disabled, you have to rely on your teammates. Sure, there are other ways of encouraging teamwork but I think this is one of the better ways. Web can stay IMO, stomp can be reworked. Bear in mind that if not for celerity, the gorge and onos are one of the slower creatures around.
To the OP. What ridiculous arguments really. That death can be avoided by being a better player? That's like saying flying can be avoided by not dropping. And if you're devoured, you shouldn't have been in that spot? That's like saying if you get shot, you shouldn't have been standing there, when a person is actively aiming and tracking you down.
<!--quoteo(post=1721708:date=Aug 9 2009, 03:36 PM:name=Cent)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cent @ Aug 9 2009, 03:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721708"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's really not that hard, and I'm surprised you're complaining about it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly. It's not hard. That's what makes it uncompetitive. It's too simple. The skill ceiling is way too low.
That is why I'm complaining about it. See? Your post basically sums up the entirety of the game. There is not much finesse. It's really not that hard, as you say.
Competitive means that after the best players have played for 2000 hours, there can still be a clear difference between them.
Balance does not make a competitive game. A 2-round game of tic-tac-toe is balanced.
To Cent's final paragraph: I agree completely. That's what makes NS so great; teamwork is essential without coercion.
<!--quoteo(post=1721734:date=Aug 10 2009, 01:47 PM:name=juice)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (juice @ Aug 10 2009, 01:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721734"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Exactly. It's not hard. That's what makes it uncompetitive. It's too simple. The skill ceiling is way too low.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think there is a lot more about L4D that makes it uncompetitive. Just pointing out there is more to a game then having a big 'twitch' skill ceiling
Comments
You could avoid them if you paid attention (like you have 1 second to shoot the smoker as it pulls you towards it), your teammates almost always saved you if they could, and I would often just play through the campaigns to save as many people as I could. Also, you guys know there is a head to head L4D mode too right? It's a lot harder to arrange a "mass disable" in a PUG than it is to get your teammates to save you from a disable.
Which brings us to NS2. I think it would be fun shooting a skulk off the back of a teammate. I like saving people from disables. It's satisfying. Furthermore, I think most people would go out of their way to help you. Keep in mind, they get a kill for it and the skulk is immobile too so it's an easy kill for a marine. Yes it is irritating to be knocked down but that doesn't mean it's not good for game play overall. It isn't fun to be a "ghost" in counter-strike either but I've played on a CS server with instant respawns... some of the magic of the game is gone. If disabling abilities make marines show a little more caution when running around the level alone, I'm all for it.
Furthermore, it's not like this has to be a 1-click-to-grapple-to-death thing... I mean what if:
*Marine had to be at < 50% health for grapple to work.
*Marine couldn't be grappled if he was holding knife/taser.
*Skulk had to be behind marine.
*Skulk wasn't even doing damage to marine... just pinning him so teammate could bite. Or it wasn't fatal if a second skulk didn't come bite the marine too.
*What if you could drop a grenade when grappled or something?
I would love to see a skulk grapple at least tried in the alpha/beta. I think it would be pretty obvious if there was room for it in NS2 gameplay or not.
While disabling abilities are indeed present, they are just as counterable (if not more so) than disabling abilities in NS1.
A smoker's tongue can be countered as you can dodge it by walking behind anything that breaks LOS. That's difficult though. Much easier instead to shoot and kill the smoker, a low HP target with a large profile, in the time it takes them to deploy the tongue. You even get a few seconds of time to shoot in the direction of the tongue while being pulled to fight him off. You can even melee his tongue out of the air, although rare. A hunter's pounce can be stopped if you shoot him out of the air, or melee him out of the air dependent on timing. It's really not that hard, and I'm surprised you're complaining about it. A tank doesn't stun you unless he hits you with a brick. He stops to do a 3 second throw animation though, so its pretty easy to get out of line of sight. Furthermore, the brick has slow travel time, and a limited arcing range. A boomer has some knockback and visual impairment, but no actual stunning or can't do squat skill. Just shoot him before he approaches. He's loud and easy to hit with bullet spam.
All of the L4D stuns are super easy to counter, much easier than something like the Onos stomp. Without jetpacks, its not always that easy to avoid being stomped if the Onos is any good. It is possible in theory... but that's no different than the argument I'm making for the L4D disabling abilities above.
One thing I will agree on, however... Is that game developers are starting to dumb down what is teamwork. Teamwork doesn't mean absolute reliance on others. In L4D, if your team is scattered, your effectiveness is so severely diminished that you are useless. It's like having a heavy train stick together all the time. That's what L4D survivor mode is like: a microgame housed within NS1. (What a testament to how amazing NS is.) Teamwork should be the coordination of strategy, and that's something that fewer and fewer games are getting right. It's not by sticking together and watching each others backs are you being a team, but instead, working towards your own independent goals that amass to something more collaborative as an outcome. In NS, that means having some individual skulks piss off marines and draw them away from the group, or having a single skulk harass the comm chair to alleviate the assault on the hive. That skulk isn't paired with anyone, yet he's helping out the team massively. One skulk always on patrol downing RTs can win the game for his team, even though he works alone. Yet that is the essence of teamwork: individuals who have a coordinated plan, and execute it with the final objective of leading to mutual team victory.
Stomp is fine, as it takes up a huge amount of adrenaline. It is also a hive 2 ability and the time for getting stunned by stomp is also relatively short. It is counterable by jetpacls, although this is not ideal since jetpacks take up a lot of res and expensive to the marine team. I would've like stomp better if you could avoid it by jumping or it took even more adrenaline to use. But other than that, I don't see any real issue on it since the onos cannot keep stomping u infinitely. And if it does, it has no energy left over for attack anyway.
Devour, is definitely annoying and I'm pretty glad it doesn't exist anymore. It was too easy for the aliens to use, even if you have to pay 75 res for the lifeform and wasn't fun for the marines either.
Now, to disabling abilities in general. I'm ok with it if it is for a short duration. I think everyone can overlook a few seconds of not moving. It does encourage teamwork since if you are disabled, you have to rely on your teammates. Sure, there are other ways of encouraging teamwork but I think this is one of the better ways. Web can stay IMO, stomp can be reworked. Bear in mind that if not for celerity, the gorge and onos are one of the slower creatures around.
To the OP. What ridiculous arguments really. That death can be avoided by being a better player? That's like saying flying can be avoided by not dropping. And if you're devoured, you shouldn't have been in that spot? That's like saying if you get shot, you shouldn't have been standing there, when a person is actively aiming and tracking you down.
Exactly. It's not hard. That's what makes it uncompetitive. It's too simple. The skill ceiling is way too low.
That is why I'm complaining about it. See? Your post basically sums up the entirety of the game. There is not much finesse. It's really not that hard, as you say.
Competitive means that after the best players have played for 2000 hours, there can still be a clear difference between them.
Balance does not make a competitive game. A 2-round game of tic-tac-toe is balanced.
To Cent's final paragraph: I agree completely. That's what makes NS so great; teamwork is essential without coercion.
I think there is a lot more about L4D that makes it uncompetitive. Just pointing out there is more to a game then having a big 'twitch' skill ceiling