The Infestation vs The NanoGrid
locallyunscene
Feeder of Trolls Join Date: 2002-12-25 Member: 11528Members, Constellation
Feeder of Trolls Join Date: 2002-12-25 Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">needs more depth!</div><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Here's the Tigris & Euphrates/NS2 mockup. I learned that our new nanogrid system has some depth, but not tons yet. <a href="http://twitpic.com/2s4gi" target="_blank">http://twitpic.com/2s4gi</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Given what we know:<ul><li> Welders open/close doors</li><li> DI interferes with environment</li><li> Comm can place tunnels connecting DI</li></ul>Here is a suggestion:
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Give each comm abilities that are much more effective on DI or on Nanogrid respectively<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->.
and
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Give each comm abilities that create/remove patches of DI<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->.
then
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Have most comm abilities require glowie/weldbot expenditure<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->.
and
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Make glowies/weldbots much stronger(higher hp) on their own territory than on opposing territory<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->.
This creates a "worker supply chain" which requires care to manage and protect, but is enhanced by all of the other strategies the comms and employ(more resources mean more glowies/weldbots, control of tunnels/chokepoints can effect comm ability readiness). Then give the comms the ability to target glowies/weldbots on the respective comm's territory(Marine comm can target glowies on nanogrid territory), and you can have the two resources feed off of each other.
How would you add depth to the territory control?
Given what we know:<ul><li> Welders open/close doors</li><li> DI interferes with environment</li><li> Comm can place tunnels connecting DI</li></ul>Here is a suggestion:
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Give each comm abilities that are much more effective on DI or on Nanogrid respectively<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->.
and
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Give each comm abilities that create/remove patches of DI<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->.
then
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Have most comm abilities require glowie/weldbot expenditure<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->.
and
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Make glowies/weldbots much stronger(higher hp) on their own territory than on opposing territory<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->.
This creates a "worker supply chain" which requires care to manage and protect, but is enhanced by all of the other strategies the comms and employ(more resources mean more glowies/weldbots, control of tunnels/chokepoints can effect comm ability readiness). Then give the comms the ability to target glowies/weldbots on the respective comm's territory(Marine comm can target glowies on nanogrid territory), and you can have the two resources feed off of each other.
How would you add depth to the territory control?
Comments
Suppose for example that in NS1 the commander could only drop medpacks in marine-controlled territory, what would the game turn into then? Pushing alien nodes would become so difficult the only viable option would be to get a few rts, turtle and tech JP and then start gnawing away at the alien team mid-late game. This already happens, but only when the team chooses to or is forced to by a good early game by the opposing team. Restricting support from the commander to only defensive positions suddenly limits the options of one team, and reduces the importance of a good early game by the other.
Think of it as forcing a switch from a modern force projection and firepower doctrine to a ww1-style mass army doctrine. Without the availability of proper support on the offensive to create local superiority while keeping logistics intact, there is no incentive to make a push what-so-ever unless your overall position is good enough that you would benifit from the attrition regardless of high losses.
That said I don't know how NS2 will be otherwise. I just feel that forcing a style of build-up and slow siege push - ala SC terrans - would probably not benifit the game being fun in the long run. My fear of this happening is strengthened further by the concept of the expensive mobile siege cannon.
So what then is my view on nano/di? Well, while I appreciate the concept and the possibility of new features that comes with it, I'm sceptic towards the idea of hinging the use of important tactical support on whether you are in your own territory or not. Affecting the environment by setting up more of a permanent presence seems interesting especially with the nydus-canal and perhaps even welding doors shut or open. But try to limit the effect of ability to actually fight, or every round of NS2 might become a case of something similar to locking down hives. And we don't want that, do we?
<ul><li>Medpacks and Ammunition are much smaller objects than a structure, so it may be possible to drop these even outside of a marine controlled grid node. Then again, I don't remember hearing any confirmation that medpacks and ammo would even operate under the same rules as in NS1.</li><li>We don't know exactly what conditions are required for a nano-gridlock situation to occur, or even what that would actually entail.</li><li>Siege weaponry is now mobile, so it will still be possible to sneak in behind enemy lines and mount an effective stealth assault.</li><li>Most importantly: These are dedicated, passionate people who want to have just as much fun with the game as we do. I understand you are entitled to your opinion, concerns, but just have some faith.</li></ul>
I understand why you would have that fear, and I'm not advocating all abilities to be limited this way. As long as expanding/clearing DI is done aggressively I think conflict will remain central.
Any ability only usable on home ground is an advantage for the defender. On most games the shorter supply route, defensive structures, flanks/ambushes and potential weakening before the push even gets into fights are enough of an advantage already. Obiviously features like that are possible, but they easily tend to make game defensive or push the slippery slope effect even further.
Infestation versus Nanite could be quite a boon to the game and I have been suggesting as much in the past. The worries of having it become WWI trench warfare seem unfounded to me, since Pincer movements defeated the Maginot line in WWII. The flame thrower on the marine side at the very least suggests to me that the transferring of territory due to conflict will be a very important part of the game.
Also, do you know what a force multiplier is? Or supply lines? I suspect that mechanisms that accomplish that on your own territory will be more likely then entrenchment. Besides, flanking and pushes (stealthy or otherwise) into enemy territory should be very exciting indeed.
In the end, it really depends on what the map that is played on itself encourages. Even certain maps in NS1 featured entrenchment over pushing out from their layout.
Is that confusion or disbelief? I gave a couple of examples games that involve territory but are anything but slow slug fests of attrition aka trench warfare. On top of that, the bonuses/resources/commander spells afforded by territory can be things that encourage movement in the map, whether that is a frontal assault push, flanking pincers to spread the opposition's defensive fire thin while concentrating your own fire, or stealthy insertions to cut supply lines to the forward positions.
Company of Heroes - Map shows which territories have been captured so far
<img src="http://farm1.static.flickr.com/131/388494132_a510464028.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Unreal Tournament 2004 - Onslaught
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W81O5wXDMG8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W81O5wXDMG8</a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afgvnU60bY8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afgvnU60bY8</a>
My apologies if the music isn't to your tastes.
I think that's a fair criticism of UT04, but I don't think the territory system is one of the reasons for that style of gameplay.
You're only fighting for one or two key locations because there are few nodes, and only half(at best) of them are "assaultable" at any given time. I would expect this to be different with NS2 beacuse not only are there many resnodes, these are not the only objectives on the map, nor are they primary.
There's no scouting because there's no tech.
There's no ambushing because the maps are outdoors and the teams are symmetrical.
You're only fighting for one or two key locations because there are few nodes, and only half(at best) of them are "assaultable" at any given time. I would expect this to be different with NS2 beacuse not only are there many resnodes, these are not the only objectives on the map, nor are they primary.
There's no scouting because there's no tech.
There's no ambushing because the maps are outdoors and the teams are symmetrical.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ye, I got off the rail there. There has been so much territorial stuff going on lately that I'm all confused on the direction of the game once again.
Just a random thought: How about something similar as the Warcraft 3 shops are? The basic idea is that shops sell some quick supply items at high prices. You don't want to use the more expensive instant healing and mana potions as they are quite cost ineffective. However, they are good at fending off nasty base pushes and other do-or-dies. A quickly bought healing or mana potion at the right time helps you to survive a little longer so that your superior economy kicks in or critical tech finishes. However, you're still basically wasting resoucres and every item you buy is a hit to your economy.
So, you could even out one enemy push by taking a economy hit and microing and fighting the enemy properly, but then again the enemy gains advantage if you haven't got something to make up for the resoucres wasted. That way it wouldn't create any longer stalemates where neither of the teams wants to commit to attacks.
So, you could even out one enemy push by taking a economy hit and microing and fighting the enemy properly, but then again the enemy gains advantage if you haven't got something to make up for the resoucres wasted. That way it wouldn't create any longer stalemates where neither of the teams wants to commit to attacks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That idea sounds similar to the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=104438&hl=landmark" target="_blank">Landmark Bonuses</a> thread. To summarize the thread: <ul><li> By holding an area you gain access to either an additional ability or some other bonus.</li><li> These bonuses would not be so huge that the entire map becomes about one room. The goal is to provide secondary objectives, not replace the Hives/MS/RTs.</li><li> These landmarks would be something only the comm worries about strategically.(ie: no +wep or +armor rooms)</li><li> The bonuses would not be map-specific. We don't want players to have to rely on learning the map more than they have to now. That said, not all of them would be on every map.</li></ul>Some possible bonuses:<ul><li> Camera control room that provides scouting into the fog-of-war. [camera symbol]</li><li> A metal or nanite flow bonus room (a % of all owned nodes)[scrapyard symbol/pipe symbol]</li><li> A research or build bonus room[exoskeleton symbol]</li><li> A room that increases DI or Nanogrid growth[nanobot symbol]</li><li> A node that increases weldbot/glowie creation[weldbot symbol]</li></ul>Another interesting territory implementation was suggested by <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=104321" target="_blank">the_x5</a> and <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=104438&view=findpost&p=1682033" target="_blank">CanadianWolverine</a>. You could have several different damage/armor types that interact in an RPS kind of way.
<!--quoteo(post=1682033:date=Jun 26 2008, 03:27 PM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Jun 26 2008, 03:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1682033"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"They have [landmarks X], we have [landmarks Y], let us use the difference[s] to OUR advantage." Paper > Rock, Scissors > Paper, Rock > Scissors. We tie, we win, we lose. Explore, Experiment, Adapt.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you for posting the link to the ideas threads Locallyunscene.
Edit: Look at what was in their twitter:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--># Charlie added a section to the design doc called "Power grid". It's kind of like territory in Company of Heroes. 1 day ago<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I haven't played CoH. Could you or someone familiar with it explain generally how that territory system works?
Edit: Is it similar to Battlefield 1942?
Edit: Is it similar to Battlefield 1942?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It has been a while since I last played CoH but their territory system is a little more complex then battlefield's. Each territory is worth some kind of resource (there being three different kinds I believe) you capture a territory but in order to get the resources of the territory you must have a supply line - you must have connecting territories going all the back to your base - so you can sneak over to the other side of the map and capture a flag but if its surrounded by enemy territory then you don't get the resources.
That is all I can recall from the game.
Any new resource system that inherently encourages teamwork (as in I don't have to be screaming on the mic or spamming chat) is something I want to see for NS2. There are many ways to go out about it, and I hope something makes it in.
I think the major difference between the shop approach and landmarks is that the landmarks provide constant advantage to the controlling team. Meanwhile the shops in WC3 are more of a last resort pick when it comes to base defence. You buy some momentary defensive advantage at the expense of your overall resoucres.
The extra abilities you could use on nanogrid would most likely be either researchable or avaible right from the start, there is no need to limit them to certain map locations.
For example being able to medspam NS 1 style is quite similar to the core idea: You extend your marine's life over the usual, but lose quite a bit of resoucres.
Beacon is another a little similar thing: You call extra marines to your home ground at the expense of 15 res, possibly obs tech and map control. It's something you don't want to use unless you have to, but it can save your bases and keep you in the game that way.
One thing I noticed in NS1 as a trend was defensive 'turtling' totally failing for the Marines. It literally never worked, and this concept was lost to many a new commander. The reason was, the second a, err, second hive goes up, you need to take it down ASAP. I don't think this would stop that - the only thing it would stop is taking res/etc from right outside an enemy base - not a huge deal.
Also, it would make the shotgun rush ineffective, which is frankly good. However, I hope some similar rush strategy is possible, as taking OUT options without adding anything back in never ends up working.