First, was medspam an <b>intentional</b> part of the game's design? (As bunnyhop arguably was.) Medpacks themselves I can understand were for replenishing hp after a fight / before storming a room etc. - makes sense, but <b>during</b> the fight? To cut medspam would be easy, just make it so that you have to "USE" the medpack to be able to use it.
Second, if we <b>do</b> keep medspam in, then why not just make it easier for commanders? Rather than have a medpack drop exactly where your cursor is and risk missing, when right-clicking have the "medpack" drop directly (though really it'd just directly heal, and there'd be no need for the actual 'pack') on the marine closest to your cursor (Only marines that have less than full hp?);if there is no marine nearby, it'll drop exactly where your cursor is. Left-clicking will only have the medpack drop exactly where your cursor is. This way, med-spamming is not dependent on twitch-skill; and as a <b>commander</b> you would <b>expect</b> that twitch-skill shouldn't factor into your ability to command. I know a few people are going to dislike this idea based on the argument that <i>Good medspam is a high-level tactic that you acquire through experience and skill, "hard to master"</i>; or perhaps the argument that it's 'fun' (for the six people that can actually do it well) - but that's bull######, it's purely arbitrary; and the fact that there are so few that can actually do it *at this point* in the game's life proves my point. You're the commander, not the grunt, you don't do the shooting work.
I understand though, that this doesn't address the newbie rage issue, and quite likely actually makes it worse since it makes it easier for commanders to medspam well. So maybe you could put a delay between medpacks or something, IDK. Maybe an auto-help that tells you how much res the enemy commander just used to heal the marine you were targeting? A bit odd, but whatever - definitely accomplishes that 'hand holding' that Radix suggested.
Basically my response to threads like this is: I agree it's flawed. I think it could be replaced. However, most people fail to see the essence of these features a whole and never suggest any replament. The same goes for things like bhop: take it away only if you can give us something equally entertaining in return.
The medding system isn't as brillaint as bhop of course, but still it gives commander quite a bit of micromanagement, prioritizing and decisionmaking to do. How about suggesting something to replace it? Or create a thread about commander's twitch skill replacement. Going directly to the removal part is always going to annoy people.
<!--quoteo(post=1698721:date=Jan 28 2009, 03:33 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Jan 28 2009, 03:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1698721"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First, was medspam an <b>intentional</b> part of the game's design? (As bunnyhop arguably was.) Medpacks themselves I can understand were for replenishing hp after a fight / before storming a room etc. - makes sense, but <b>during</b> the fight? To cut medspam would be easy, just make it so that you have to "USE" the medpack to be able to use it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why are you attempting to employ reverse psychology on developers as if it's some kind of conspiracy theory? Decisions are usually made through much simpler mechanics than you think. They probably didn't add medpacks under specific conditions, because those conditions could be easily enforced, they simply added medpacks as a way for commanders to have strategic/tactical choice in a game. (seemed cool at the time, right?) Nothing else.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Second, if we <b>do</b> keep medspam in, then why not just make it easier for commanders? Rather than have a medpack drop exactly where your cursor is and risk missing, when right-clicking have the "medpack" drop directly (though really it'd just directly heal, and there'd be no need for the actual 'pack') on the marine closest to your cursor (Only marines that have less than full hp?);if there is no marine nearby, it'll drop exactly where your cursor is. Left-clicking will only have the medpack drop exactly where your cursor is. This way, med-spamming is not dependent on twitch-skill; and as a <b>commander</b> you would <b>expect</b> that twitch-skill shouldn't factor into your ability to command. I know a few people are going to dislike this idea based on the argument that <i>Good medspam is a high-level tactic that you acquire through experience and skill, "hard to master"</i>; or perhaps the argument that it's 'fun' (for the six people that can actually do it well) - but that's bull######, it's purely arbitrary; and the fact that there are so few that can actually do it *at this point* in the game's life proves my point. You're the commander, not the grunt, you don't do the shooting work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're lucky that the 6 commanders who know how to drop meds are still playing this game. If medpacks didn't exist, well, Orox made that point.
<!--quoteo(post=1698739:date=Jan 28 2009, 11:57 AM:name=Orox)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Orox @ Jan 28 2009, 11:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1698739"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do not remove the medspam, or I will be bored in my com chair. It's a part of the game, and it costs ressources to marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You either have Medspam for NONE, <!--quoteo(post=1698721:date=Jan 28 2009, 11:33 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Jan 28 2009, 11:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1698721"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To cut medspam would be easy, just make it so that you have to "USE" the medpack to be able to use it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> or Medspam for ALL. <!--quoteo(post=1698721:date=Jan 28 2009, 11:33 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Jan 28 2009, 11:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1698721"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Rather than have a medpack drop exactly where your cursor is and risk missing, when right-clicking have the "medpack" drop directly on the marine closest to your cursor<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> But you don't keep it the way it is now.
Also, I have no idea what you're talking about when you say I was employing reverse psychology. It was an honest question. Was medspam intentional, or just a side-effect of having droppable medpacks?
<!--quoteo(post=1698808:date=Jan 29 2009, 02:18 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Jan 29 2009, 02:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1698808"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well for me the question is very simple.
You either have Medspam for NONE,
or Medspam for ALL.
But you don't keep it the way it is now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why not? Give a good reason or concede. (concede)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, I have no idea what you're talking about when you say I was employing reverse psychology. It was an honest question. Was medspam intentional, or just a side-effect of having droppable medpacks?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If the developers haven't removed it, it means that it doesn't matter whether it was intentional or not.
<!--quoteo(post=1698808:date=Jan 29 2009, 02:18 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Jan 29 2009, 02:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1698808"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well for me the question is very simple.
You either have Medspam for NONE,
or Medspam for ALL.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What makes this different from any other twitch skills in the game? Why isn't it aim for everyone or for none? I highly doubt you're going to convince anyone without any argumentantion (as if the convincing was even possible on online forums though).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Was medspam intentional, or just a side-effect of having droppable medpacks?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd say it's at least as intentional as bhop. Like mentioned a dozen times, it could be easily removed it the devs wanted. Of course I can't remember when medspam was popularized and was the game still in a state where it could be rebalanced, but still I'm quite confident the medspam could've been stopped if necessary.
Let's say the marine commander has a pool of medpacks // ammo // cataclysts he can drop depending on: (different ideas now <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> )
-> the number of armories (lets say 6 basic medkits + X*armory count) -> he has a basic number of medpacks and can upgrade his pool -> he has a basic pool of medpacks, but he can upgrade the healing potential of medpacks (probably on highest level giving the marine some adrenaline so he has a little more than 100 hp after the medpack is applied, the hp is lost again during time until he is back to 100 similar to HL) -> he has a basic pool but he can upgrade the refresh time the pool is filled up again -> or combine any of the given ideas above ... -> you can also make it that way: instead of buying every single medpack you start with a pool of zero packs but you can upgrade your pool in any given way above to increase the medpack count and the medpacks you are dropping are for free ...
Ofcourse Medpack spamming is somehow balanced, because if the commander isn't good it takes him lots of ress just to make one shotgunner survive, but the thing that is annoying other players is when you want to finish of a hive with a shotgun rush or something it feels sometimes like a free win for the marines if they are able to spamm meds all over the place (ofcourse if it comes to this point the alien team probably failed to do anything against the marines economic and so on, but don't tear my little example apart <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> )
With this upgradeable pool of medpack system a good commander should be able to maximize his micro to hit every medpack, so he can ensure that his specific marines will survive, but he shouldn't be able to just spamm like 30 medpacks on the ground and go then to do something else just to ensure he has some spare time and doesn't need to care about his marines. On the other hand it should be still enough medpacks that a not so good commander will hit eventually enough medpacks to make a target marine survive and at the same time blocking the commander from using too much ressources on the medpacks, so he can't miscalculated and end up with not enough ressources for a weapon upgrade for example.
I guess we can all agree that it is always possible to change things, just give some constructive examples... most of the posts here feel more like: "Medspam is okay, do not remove it." and "Medspam is imba it should be removed !" ... I guess the interesting part is more the part with some suggestions how to change it and still keep the flavor and stuff and not who of you is for or against it ... ?
How about you just leave it as it is, because it's fun and balanced? Seriously, all I see from this thread is "omg I died to a marine cos com dropped 20 meds on him, which is now gonna make marines lose the game. <b>But I died so it's lame. NERFFFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!</b>"
The only real argument against it that we have heard is that it will annoy newbies because they can't kill a marine that is being medspammed.
This argument is complete tosh. Why? Because 99.99999999999999999% of the newbies to NS will be playing marine and they will be ecstatic at being medspammed and staying alive when they get ambushed and should have died. So rather than being newbie-unfriendly medspamming should be seen as a great thing for newbies.
<!--quoteo(post=1698829:date=Jan 29 2009, 01:33 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ Jan 29 2009, 01:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1698829"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd say it's at least as intentional as bhop. Like mentioned a dozen times, it could be easily removed it the devs wanted. Of course I can't remember when medspam was popularized and was the game still in a state where it could be rebalanced, but still I'm quite confident the medspam could've been stopped if necessary.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I recall correctly, as a Commander I used to be able to drop a med pack directly on a marine's head but in the current version, you have drop it where they aren't. Seems like that was an attempt to address this issue, because it forced Commander's with that great aim to also add prediction of the path of the marine into the mix as well.
And why do people find med spamming as part of Commander experience interesting? I find it boring and tedious as all get out when I am in the chair - if 2 med packs at most can't keep a marine alive, that marine is just a waste of resources into a bad situation because I have other players to babysit and dispense snacks to as they yell at me for not being #1 competitive fast and domineering as a Comm in NS1.
Personally, I like the make meds and catalyst a selectable, usable object for self and on others best as a solution for NS2, rather than a instant use upon auto pick up currently in NS1. I am certain I have said as much in past posts in other threads that touch on the issue of med packs.
Don't get me wrong I don't want to nerf the system of medding players during combat, but I want it to regulate so it's more interesting for the commander to play the game cause he has to decide if its worth adding some ress to improve your pool or any upgrade on those meds as I suggested them before.
I'm probably someone you would call a public noob player, I often fail to kill enemy marines even if I ambush, but thats mostly not dependent on any medspamms I mostly fail to catch them off guard and get shot before I land enough bites. I really don't care if the med system is kept like it is, but if I'm going to play a new game like NS2, I also want so see some different things like a better UI for the commander and some new ways to tech so you can do some new strategies and I think it would be more interesting to play as a comm, when you have a limited amount (that you can increase or sth) of medpacks that don't hurt your economy, but it can also stay completly the same like it is now, but it is somehow boring. So don't think I'm a crybaby cause I get owned sometimes, I just want to give some suggestions how to improve the game...
EDIT: Okay let's clarify that mess I wrote up <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
What I'm thinking of that beside your techtree for Weapon Upgrades and Armor Upgrades you might have an extra Tree for, lets say... "Support"
So a commander can basically widen his strategy by using some ressource on this tree. My basic idea is that you can upgrade the support paralell to the alien lifeforms (let's say like armor, but a bit different)
As I wrote before the different attributes can be based on different things and not on upgrades at all and ofcourse some things like the poolsize should also depend on the amount of marines that are around or if you start with more ressources you have to build extra Med Labs or something to get a bigger poolsize, but as I said it is just a simple example so that you can fetch the idea thats somewhere in my brain <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
In the current NS it is useless to medpack a marine that has no armor and gets hit by a focused fade ... but in my example you can temporarly increase that marines health to 150 for some seconds and (if upgraded or however you get it) he is also cataclysted and can be effectivly rescued...
I don't know, but if you implement it correctly you will have another tech tree that you can tech down and get some nice things and so on. Ofcourse and that is crucial don't add like 10 more upgrades just for teching in the Support tree, because it kind of sucks if you have to keep an eye on thousands of different upgrades.
I hope you understand what my approach is...
1mannARMEE
PS: If any of the english feels poor to you <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> I might be sorry <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1698867:date=Jan 29 2009, 04:11 PM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Jan 29 2009, 04:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1698867"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And why do people find med spamming as part of Commander experience interesting? I find it boring and tedious as all get out when I am in the chair - if 2 med packs at most can't keep a marine alive, that marine is just a waste of resources into a bad situation because I have other players to babysit and dispense snacks to as they yell at me for not being #1 competitive fast and domineering as a Comm in NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, spamming itself isn't that thrilling, but somewhat controlling the game through meds, helping out in a lot of close calls and still managing to scout and account most of the alien decisions is somewhat rewarding.
Having a medding duty or something similar is essential to the commander gameplay flow. Without them I'd have maybe 15 decisions to make during the 15 minute game and the rest of the time I'd be hovering around my groups and pointing out skulk directions. The present one on the other hand is a relatively hectic and I feel I've got a plenty of things to improve whenever I play. The commanding itself isn't _that_ complex after all, without meds it would become a pure routine too.
<!--quoteo(post=1698829:date=Jan 29 2009, 02:33 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ Jan 29 2009, 02:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1698829"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What makes this different from any other twitch skills in the game? Why isn't it aim for everyone or for none? I highly doubt you're going to convince anyone without any argumentantion (as if the convincing was even possible on online forums though).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because the commander shouldn't need twitch skills. As the commander, why should he? Which RTSs have ever required minute twitch skill with a mouse?
Anytime: What I'm saying is, since <b>there is no reason</b> that medspam should be dependent on twitch-skill, just make it simple enough for anyone to use; <i>that</i> is <b>the reason</b>. Should clicking on icons for researches, or placing buildings on flat surfaces, <b>also</b> be dependent on twitch-skill? It's exactly the same thing.
<!--quoteo(post=1699279:date=Feb 2 2009, 11:14 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Feb 2 2009, 11:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1699279"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because the commander shouldn't need twitch skills. As the commander, why should he? Which RTSs have ever required minute twitch skill with a mouse?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Starcraft, at least at the professional level. Google starcraft matches and watch some of the Korean matches, then tell me there is no twitch skills in RTS play. Pro RTS players measure actually measure their actions per minute.
<!--quoteo(post=1699316:date=Feb 3 2009, 12:57 PM:name=Firewater)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Firewater @ Feb 3 2009, 12:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1699316"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Starcraft, at least at the professional level. Google starcraft matches and watch some of the Korean matches, then tell me there is no twitch skills in RTS play. Pro RTS players measure actually measure their actions per minute.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Warcraft 3 actually took even further by creating most of the game around micromanagement. Starcraft still requires more APM to play on a high level, but WC3 is an RTS built especially for the combination of twitch skills and strategy, while starcraft probably evolved more into one later on.
I'm not too familiar of DoW and C&C multiplayers, but I doubt they've got even closely enough of depth for pure decisionmaking/strategy metagame either. When people play similar strategies, something has to make the difference. The same goes for NS, unless UWE suddenly pulls off a huge depth increase in strategy. Heavy decisionmaking doesn't sound much of a casual game for FPS gamers either.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1699332:date=Feb 3 2009, 09:19 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ Feb 3 2009, 09:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1699332"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Warcraft 3 actually took even further by creating most of the game around micromanagement. Starcraft still requires more APM to play on a high level, but WC3 is an RTS built especially for the combination of twitch skills and strategy, while starcraft probably evolved more into one later on.
I'm not too familiar of DoW and C&C multiplayers, but I doubt they've got even closely enough of depth for pure decisionmaking/strategy metagame either. When people play similar strategies, something has to make the difference. The same goes for NS, unless UWE suddenly pulls off a huge depth increase in strategy. Heavy decisionmaking doesn't sound much of a casual game for FPS gamers either.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I have to agree with <b>firewater</b> and <b>bacillus</b> on this one. Commanding needs skill moves or else it will be boring to play. There have been many good topics about incoporating new and different types of micro into commander playing, and there's always room for more discussion there. Even if other skill moves are available, I've never seen medpacks and medspam as a problem and don't think it needs to be "fixed". It only seems unfair until you take the time to internalize how much res is being spent on medpacks: 2 medpacks is a welder, 4 a pack of mines, 5 a shotgun, 10 any T1 upgrade. That's why it's so crucial to commanding; If you can save your marines with 2 well placed packs instead of 4 spammed after three battles you've lost a shotgun, and after five a t1 tech.
<!--quoteo(post=1699316:date=Feb 3 2009, 08:57 PM:name=Firewater)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Firewater @ Feb 3 2009, 08:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1699316"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Starcraft, at least at the professional level. Google starcraft matches and watch some of the Korean matches, then tell me there is no twitch skills in RTS play. Pro RTS players measure actually measure their actions per minute.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Micro- =/= twitch skill. In my opinion, anyway.
I guess for me the problem is, medspam as it is doesn't reward the commander for succeeding, instead it punishes him for failing (missing -> wasting res).
<!--quoteo(post=1699403:date=Feb 4 2009, 01:27 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Feb 4 2009, 01:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1699403"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Micro- =/= twitch skill. In my opinion, anyway.
I guess for me the problem is, medspam as it is doesn't reward the commander for succeeding, instead it punishes him for failing (missing -> wasting res).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> How does micro differ from medding? Why isn't it twitch skill? What's the definition of twitch skill then? I've been saying all topic long that the support system should be improved and made more complex than just medding and random ammo/catpacks.
I'd say it's a huge reward to get an important frag or to prolong your area control for additional 15 seconds. If you're referring to the pure dependency on commander for healing, I've adressed it already and said it should go. There should be less obligatory medding, but more supporting, scouting and other commander actions to make up for it.
For example give marines a slow healing medpack for themselves and the commander some instant heals. Suddenly the marines aren't all that dependant on the newbie commander, but a good commander can scout more, keep marines alive with meds and use any other support spells way better than the newbie. Of course marine medpacks force you to rethink some of the RFK/spore balances, but those should be reconsidered anyway, no matter if the 2 res medpack is the only way to heal up.
"Medspam" is a twitchskill when you're hitting a medpack on a marine who just got biten right before a second skulk bites him.
Medspam isn't a twtichskill when you have a bunch of resources and are mashing the hotkey and dropping them all over the ground to be ran over.
Why can't we have one, but not the other? Have a skill-based way for commanders to heal their team, but not magical-peels rained from the sky all over the place? Even if the new resource model discourages it but it's kept the same, it's silly.
Someone said "A lot of commanders would quit because there is nothing to do when you aren't medspamming." and yeah, I totally agree! Commanders need something that requires twitch and micro, but why does that thing have to be medpacks? What about a click-to-target ability on the droids for a heal, as well as a built in welder for droids(or welder after some tech) to repair armor?
It would be a lot less annoying for two skulks to lose to a lone marine when they see there was a drone there. It's just an instant-heal out of no where feeling so annoying in that case! And since it's a targetted ability, you have to use it after the person is bitten, just not on the ground to auto-pickup when their health drops.
<!--quoteo(post=1736565:date=Nov 6 2009, 09:44 PM:name=innociv)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (innociv @ Nov 6 2009, 09:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1736565"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Someone said "A lot of commanders would quit because there is nothing to do when you aren't medspamming." and yeah, I totally agree! Commanders need something that requires twitch and micro, but why does that thing have to be medpacks? What about a click-to-target ability on the droids for a heal, as well as a built in welder for droids(or welder after some tech) to repair armor?
It would be a lot less annoying for two skulks to lose to a lone marine when they see there was a drone there. It's just an instant-heal out of no where feeling so annoying in that case! And since it's a targetted ability, you have to use it after the person is bitten, just not on the ground to auto-pickup when their health drops.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Anything goes as long as it's dynamic, challenging and has got enough of depth. I can't picture the drones as a solution, but it's all good if they work somehow.
<!--quoteo(post=1736567:date=Nov 6 2009, 03:55 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Nov 6 2009, 03:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1736567"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anything goes as long as it's dynamic, challenging and has got enough of depth. I can't picture the drones as a solution, but it's all good if they work somehow.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think a heal on drones would make it take more skill and have more depth since you have to keep the drone near someone and alive. It's not exactly hard to drop 10 health packs on the ground for people to walk over at their leisure..
A heal item for people is maybe good, but I like the idea of a quick heal to save someones life and turn a skirmish around rather than a heal in between skirmishes.
Comments
Second, if we <b>do</b> keep medspam in, then why not just make it easier for commanders? Rather than have a medpack drop exactly where your cursor is and risk missing, when right-clicking have the "medpack" drop directly (though really it'd just directly heal, and there'd be no need for the actual 'pack') on the marine closest to your cursor (Only marines that have less than full hp?);if there is no marine nearby, it'll drop exactly where your cursor is. Left-clicking will only have the medpack drop exactly where your cursor is. This way, med-spamming is not dependent on twitch-skill; and as a <b>commander</b> you would <b>expect</b> that twitch-skill shouldn't factor into your ability to command.
I know a few people are going to dislike this idea based on the argument that <i>Good medspam is a high-level tactic that you acquire through experience and skill, "hard to master"</i>; or perhaps the argument that it's 'fun' (for the six people that can actually do it well) - but that's bull######, it's purely arbitrary; and the fact that there are so few that can actually do it *at this point* in the game's life proves my point. You're the commander, not the grunt, you don't do the shooting work.
I understand though, that this doesn't address the newbie rage issue, and quite likely actually makes it worse since it makes it easier for commanders to medspam well. So maybe you could put a delay between medpacks or something, IDK. Maybe an auto-help that tells you how much res the enemy commander just used to heal the marine you were targeting? A bit odd, but whatever - definitely accomplishes that 'hand holding' that Radix suggested.
The medding system isn't as brillaint as bhop of course, but still it gives commander quite a bit of micromanagement, prioritizing and decisionmaking to do. How about suggesting something to replace it? Or create a thread about commander's twitch skill replacement. Going directly to the removal part is always going to annoy people.
Why are you attempting to employ reverse psychology on developers as if it's some kind of conspiracy theory? Decisions are usually made through much simpler mechanics than you think. They probably didn't add medpacks under specific conditions, because those conditions could be easily enforced, they simply added medpacks as a way for commanders to have strategic/tactical choice in a game. (seemed cool at the time, right?) Nothing else.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Second, if we <b>do</b> keep medspam in, then why not just make it easier for commanders? Rather than have a medpack drop exactly where your cursor is and risk missing, when right-clicking have the "medpack" drop directly (though really it'd just directly heal, and there'd be no need for the actual 'pack') on the marine closest to your cursor (Only marines that have less than full hp?);if there is no marine nearby, it'll drop exactly where your cursor is. Left-clicking will only have the medpack drop exactly where your cursor is. This way, med-spamming is not dependent on twitch-skill; and as a <b>commander</b> you would <b>expect</b> that twitch-skill shouldn't factor into your ability to command.
I know a few people are going to dislike this idea based on the argument that <i>Good medspam is a high-level tactic that you acquire through experience and skill, "hard to master"</i>; or perhaps the argument that it's 'fun' (for the six people that can actually do it well) - but that's bull######, it's purely arbitrary; and the fact that there are so few that can actually do it *at this point* in the game's life proves my point. You're the commander, not the grunt, you don't do the shooting work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're lucky that the 6 commanders who know how to drop meds are still playing this game. If medpacks didn't exist, well, Orox made that point.
<!--quoteo(post=1698739:date=Jan 28 2009, 11:57 AM:name=Orox)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Orox @ Jan 28 2009, 11:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1698739"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do not remove the medspam, or I will be bored in my com chair. It's a part of the game, and it costs ressources to marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You either have Medspam for NONE,
<!--quoteo(post=1698721:date=Jan 28 2009, 11:33 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Jan 28 2009, 11:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1698721"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To cut medspam would be easy, just make it so that you have to "USE" the medpack to be able to use it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
or Medspam for ALL.
<!--quoteo(post=1698721:date=Jan 28 2009, 11:33 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Jan 28 2009, 11:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1698721"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Rather than have a medpack drop exactly where your cursor is and risk missing, when right-clicking have the "medpack" drop directly on the marine closest to your cursor<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But you don't keep it the way it is now.
Also, I have no idea what you're talking about when you say I was employing reverse psychology. It was an honest question. Was medspam intentional, or just a side-effect of having droppable medpacks?
You either have Medspam for NONE,
or Medspam for ALL.
But you don't keep it the way it is now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why not? Give a good reason or concede. (concede)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, I have no idea what you're talking about when you say I was employing reverse psychology. It was an honest question. Was medspam intentional, or just a side-effect of having droppable medpacks?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the developers haven't removed it, it means that it doesn't matter whether it was intentional or not.
You either have Medspam for NONE,
or Medspam for ALL.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What makes this different from any other twitch skills in the game? Why isn't it aim for everyone or for none? I highly doubt you're going to convince anyone without any argumentantion (as if the convincing was even possible on online forums though).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Was medspam intentional, or just a side-effect of having droppable medpacks?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd say it's at least as intentional as bhop. Like mentioned a dozen times, it could be easily removed it the devs wanted. Of course I can't remember when medspam was popularized and was the game still in a state where it could be rebalanced, but still I'm quite confident the medspam could've been stopped if necessary.
-> the number of armories (lets say 6 basic medkits + X*armory count)
-> he has a basic number of medpacks and can upgrade his pool
-> he has a basic pool of medpacks, but he can upgrade the healing potential of medpacks (probably on highest level giving the marine some adrenaline so he has a little more than 100 hp after the medpack is applied, the hp is lost again during time until he is back to 100 similar to HL)
-> he has a basic pool but he can upgrade the refresh time the pool is filled up again
-> or combine any of the given ideas above ...
-> you can also make it that way: instead of buying every single medpack you start with a pool of zero packs but you can upgrade your pool in any given way above to increase the medpack count and the medpacks you are dropping are for free ...
Ofcourse Medpack spamming is somehow balanced, because if the commander isn't good it takes him lots of ress just to make one shotgunner survive, but the thing that is annoying other players is when you want to finish of a hive with a shotgun rush or something it feels sometimes like a free win for the marines if they are able to spamm meds all over the place (ofcourse if it comes to this point the alien team probably failed to do anything against the marines economic and so on, but don't tear my little example apart <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> )
With this upgradeable pool of medpack system a good commander should be able to maximize his micro to hit every medpack, so he can ensure that his specific marines will survive, but he shouldn't be able to just spamm like 30 medpacks on the ground and go then to do something else just to ensure he has some spare time and doesn't need to care about his marines. On the other hand it should be still enough medpacks that a not so good commander will hit eventually enough medpacks to make a target marine survive and at the same time blocking the commander from using too much ressources on the medpacks, so he can't miscalculated and end up with not enough ressources for a weapon upgrade for example.
I guess we can all agree that it is always possible to change things, just give some constructive examples... most of the posts here feel more like:
"Medspam is okay, do not remove it." and "Medspam is imba it should be removed !" ... I guess the interesting part is more the part with some suggestions how to change it and still keep the flavor and stuff and not who of you is for or against it ... ?
Thanks please comment,
1mannARMEE
The only real argument against it that we have heard is that it will annoy newbies because they can't kill a marine that is being medspammed.
This argument is complete tosh. Why? Because 99.99999999999999999% of the newbies to NS will be playing marine and they will be ecstatic at being medspammed and staying alive when they get ambushed and should have died. So rather than being newbie-unfriendly medspamming should be seen as a great thing for newbies.
Regards
T.
If I recall correctly, as a Commander I used to be able to drop a med pack directly on a marine's head but in the current version, you have drop it where they aren't. Seems like that was an attempt to address this issue, because it forced Commander's with that great aim to also add prediction of the path of the marine into the mix as well.
And why do people find med spamming as part of Commander experience interesting? I find it boring and tedious as all get out when I am in the chair - if 2 med packs at most can't keep a marine alive, that marine is just a waste of resources into a bad situation because I have other players to babysit and dispense snacks to as they yell at me for not being #1 competitive fast and domineering as a Comm in NS1.
Personally, I like the make meds and catalyst a selectable, usable object for self and on others best as a solution for NS2, rather than a instant use upon auto pick up currently in NS1. I am certain I have said as much in past posts in other threads that touch on the issue of med packs.
I'm probably someone you would call a public noob player, I often fail to kill enemy marines even if I ambush, but thats mostly not dependent on any medspamms I mostly fail to catch them off guard and get shot before I land enough bites. I really don't care if the med system is kept like it is, but if I'm going to play a new game like NS2, I also want so see some different things like a better UI for the commander and some new ways to tech so you can do some new strategies and I think it would be more interesting to play as a comm, when you have a limited amount (that you can increase or sth) of medpacks that don't hurt your economy, but it can also stay completly the same like it is now, but it is somehow boring. So don't think I'm a crybaby cause I get owned sometimes, I just want to give some suggestions how to improve the game...
EDIT: Okay let's clarify that mess I wrote up <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
What I'm thinking of that beside your techtree for Weapon Upgrades and Armor Upgrades you might have an extra Tree for, lets say... "Support"
So a commander can basically widen his strategy by using some ressource on this tree.
My basic idea is that you can upgrade the support paralell to the alien lifeforms (let's say like armor, but a bit different)
Okay a simple example:
Support level: 1 2 3 4
Heal: 50 75 100 150
Effect: none none +movement bonus +movement & reload rate bonus
Poolsize: 6 8 10 12
Cooldown: ?? ?? ?? ??
HP Pack Cost: 2 2 0 0
As I wrote before the different attributes can be based on different things and not on upgrades at all and ofcourse some things like the poolsize should also depend on the amount of marines that are around or if you start with more ressources you have to build extra Med Labs or something to get a bigger poolsize, but as I said it is just a simple example so that you can fetch the idea thats somewhere in my brain <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
In the current NS it is useless to medpack a marine that has no armor and gets hit by a focused fade ... but in my example you can temporarly increase that marines health to 150 for some seconds and (if upgraded or however you get it) he is also cataclysted and can be effectivly rescued...
I don't know, but if you implement it correctly you will have another tech tree that you can tech down and get some nice things and so on. Ofcourse and that is crucial don't add like 10 more upgrades just for teching in the Support tree, because it kind of sucks if you have to keep an eye on thousands of different upgrades.
I hope you understand what my approach is...
1mannARMEE
PS: If any of the english feels poor to you <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> I might be sorry <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Well, spamming itself isn't that thrilling, but somewhat controlling the game through meds, helping out in a lot of close calls and still managing to scout and account most of the alien decisions is somewhat rewarding.
Having a medding duty or something similar is essential to the commander gameplay flow. Without them I'd have maybe 15 decisions to make during the 15 minute game and the rest of the time I'd be hovering around my groups and pointing out skulk directions. The present one on the other hand is a relatively hectic and I feel I've got a plenty of things to improve whenever I play. The commanding itself isn't _that_ complex after all, without meds it would become a pure routine too.
Because the commander shouldn't need twitch skills. As the commander, why should he? Which RTSs have ever required minute twitch skill with a mouse?
Anytime: What I'm saying is, since <b>there is no reason</b> that medspam should be dependent on twitch-skill, just make it simple enough for anyone to use; <i>that</i> is <b>the reason</b>. Should clicking on icons for researches, or placing buildings on flat surfaces, <b>also</b> be dependent on twitch-skill? It's exactly the same thing.
Starcraft, at least at the professional level. Google starcraft matches and watch some of the Korean matches, then tell me there is no twitch skills in RTS play. Pro RTS players measure actually measure their actions per minute.
Warcraft 3 actually took even further by creating most of the game around micromanagement. Starcraft still requires more APM to play on a high level, but WC3 is an RTS built especially for the combination of twitch skills and strategy, while starcraft probably evolved more into one later on.
I'm not too familiar of DoW and C&C multiplayers, but I doubt they've got even closely enough of depth for pure decisionmaking/strategy metagame either. When people play similar strategies, something has to make the difference. The same goes for NS, unless UWE suddenly pulls off a huge depth increase in strategy. Heavy decisionmaking doesn't sound much of a casual game for FPS gamers either.
I'm not too familiar of DoW and C&C multiplayers, but I doubt they've got even closely enough of depth for pure decisionmaking/strategy metagame either. When people play similar strategies, something has to make the difference. The same goes for NS, unless UWE suddenly pulls off a huge depth increase in strategy. Heavy decisionmaking doesn't sound much of a casual game for FPS gamers either.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have to agree with <b>firewater</b> and <b>bacillus</b> on this one. Commanding needs skill moves or else it will be boring to play. There have been many good topics about incoporating new and different types of micro into commander playing, and there's always room for more discussion there. Even if other skill moves are available, I've never seen medpacks and medspam as a problem and don't think it needs to be "fixed". It only seems unfair until you take the time to internalize how much res is being spent on medpacks: 2 medpacks is a welder, 4 a pack of mines, 5 a shotgun, 10 any T1 upgrade. That's why it's so crucial to commanding; If you can save your marines with 2 well placed packs instead of 4 spammed after three battles you've lost a shotgun, and after five a t1 tech.
Micro- =/= twitch skill. In my opinion, anyway.
I guess for me the problem is, medspam as it is doesn't reward the commander for succeeding, instead it punishes him for failing (missing -> wasting res).
I guess for me the problem is, medspam as it is doesn't reward the commander for succeeding, instead it punishes him for failing (missing -> wasting res).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How does micro differ from medding? Why isn't it twitch skill? What's the definition of twitch skill then? I've been saying all topic long that the support system should be improved and made more complex than just medding and random ammo/catpacks.
I'd say it's a huge reward to get an important frag or to prolong your area control for additional 15 seconds. If you're referring to the pure dependency on commander for healing, I've adressed it already and said it should go. There should be less obligatory medding, but more supporting, scouting and other commander actions to make up for it.
For example give marines a slow healing medpack for themselves and the commander some instant heals. Suddenly the marines aren't all that dependant on the newbie commander, but a good commander can scout more, keep marines alive with meds and use any other support spells way better than the newbie. Of course marine medpacks force you to rethink some of the RFK/spore balances, but those should be reconsidered anyway, no matter if the 2 res medpack is the only way to heal up.
Medspam isn't a twtichskill when you have a bunch of resources and are mashing the hotkey and dropping them all over the ground to be ran over.
Why can't we have one, but not the other? Have a skill-based way for commanders to heal their team, but not magical-peels rained from the sky all over the place? Even if the new resource model discourages it but it's kept the same, it's silly.
Someone said "A lot of commanders would quit because there is nothing to do when you aren't medspamming." and yeah, I totally agree! Commanders need something that requires twitch and micro, but why does that thing have to be medpacks?
What about a click-to-target ability on the droids for a heal, as well as a built in welder for droids(or welder after some tech) to repair armor?
It would be a lot less annoying for two skulks to lose to a lone marine when they see there was a drone there. It's just an instant-heal out of no where feeling so annoying in that case! And since it's a targetted ability, you have to use it after the person is bitten, just not on the ground to auto-pickup when their health drops.
What about a click-to-target ability on the droids for a heal, as well as a built in welder for droids(or welder after some tech) to repair armor?
It would be a lot less annoying for two skulks to lose to a lone marine when they see there was a drone there. It's just an instant-heal out of no where feeling so annoying in that case! And since it's a targetted ability, you have to use it after the person is bitten, just not on the ground to auto-pickup when their health drops.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Anything goes as long as it's dynamic, challenging and has got enough of depth. I can't picture the drones as a solution, but it's all good if they work somehow.
I think a heal on drones would make it take more skill and have more depth since you have to keep the drone near someone and alive.
It's not exactly hard to drop 10 health packs on the ground for people to walk over at their leisure..
A heal item for people is maybe good, but I like the idea of a quick heal to save someones life and turn a skirmish around rather than a heal in between skirmishes.