Quicker end game

Killer Ricochet

The idea is simple. Reduce game turtling. Suggestions:


-After a time of advantage, anyone can call a votation to the loosing team surrender (see 3rd item) <!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->(something like 70% of players of both teams, so only if most people agree that it will not be fun, so it's not lame as f4ing).<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
-An alternative to forfeit is to implant as an ingame feature. More time in advantage, automatically causes 3rd item.
-Surrender button (Evacuate the ship/Kamikase Aliens Mini Game). So losing still fun to everyone.
-4th hive spot at marine start (if marines run away from marine start and setup in a hive spot, the alien would be unable to reach 3rd hive).
-After some time active (suggested 1 minute), the 3rd hive gives overpower buffs to aliens that keep growing (more time turtling, stronger alien).
-DI starts to spread and gets agressive (damages structures and marines) and keep going worst with time. Siege Cannon revenge!


Maybe/Discarded list:
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->-If your team have only 1 RT, the resource pool limit is 50*. If only 2 RTs, the pool limit is 150*. More RTs = no limit.
This rule only applies, let's say, 20 minutes after the match starts. And it only applies to marines, 5 minutes after the building of the 3rd hive. *values must be tweaked.
-<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=104476" target="_blank">Hive spirit?</a>
-Easier to destroy IPs (maybe cheaper too).
-Eletric building lose effectiveness if more than 2-3 are created in same range.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->


What you think and suggest?

Bacillus

Most of those hardly access the fact that marines are just able to outgun anything while they're stacked around the IPs. This is so metagame related that I can't even try guess how the problem could be accessed.

Underwhelmed

If your team has only one RT, you're not going to be hitting the 150 res limit anytime soon. Easiest way to solve this is just to have the losing team concede faster.

Sirot

There needs to be a way for either side to go "okay sorry, but you're screwed" and bam, game over.

Killer Ricochet

<!--quoteo(post=1695948:date=Dec 12 2008, 02:36 AM:name=Underwhelmed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Underwhelmed @ Dec 12 2008, 02:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695948"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If your team has only one RT, you're not going to be hitting the 150 res limit anytime soon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's just a question of tweaking values.

<!--quoteo(post=1695948:date=Dec 12 2008, 02:36 AM:name=Underwhelmed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Underwhelmed @ Dec 12 2008, 02:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695948"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Easiest way to solve this is just to have the losing team concede faster.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Surrender (evacuation)button as new idea, right? Going to edit main topic. And... of coarse the forfeit of the opponent is the best way to win, but, I doubt this is happens often... But I'm not sure.

<!--quoteo(post=1695949:date=Dec 12 2008, 02:38 AM:name=Sirot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sirot @ Dec 12 2008, 02:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695949"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There needs to be a way for either side to go "okay sorry, but you're screwed" and bam, game over.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't got it... You mean forcing defeat to opposite team if your team clearly has a BIG advantage?

edit: I didn't <u>got</u> it.

Sarisel

Perhaps an idea that might work is to let the winning team (controlling the most resources and the greatest area of the map) be able to call a vote after a certain time of holding the advantage to force the turtling side to concede.

Zek

I disagree with forfeiting, the game should end in the marines being overwhelmed and slaughtered IMHO. Just giving up isn't fun for either side. The answer is hive 3. It should be a game ender, i.e. even with all their tech marines can't possibly fight back unless they kill one of those hives <i>fast</i>. Aliens gaining 3 hives is a sign that marines have utterly failed in map control and they should be screwed. So make the hive 3 abilities insanely strong, or maybe buff other abilities too once they reach that stage(say, bile bomb is upgraded to do more damage with a bigger splash). Whatever the case, trying to turtle in base against a hive 3 team should be a joke, even moreso than now.

Related to this, I don't think marines should be able to prevent a 3rd hive by relocating there, since this prevents the base-breaking functionality from being used. So I say add a 4th hive spot in the original marine spawn, and any hive spot within a certain distance of marine base will be disabled. Maybe pursue other incentives to relocate if necessary.

Sarisel

If buffing hive 3 is the path taken, then a possibility is to create a scenario where having hive 3 starts boosting the health and damage dealt by all alien lifeforms at a certain rate per second, perhaps increasing in an exponential manner after a certain amount of time. Call it an evolution explosion.

Underwhelmed

<!--quoteo(post=1696006:date=Dec 12 2008, 02:19 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Zek @ Dec 12 2008, 02:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1696006"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I disagree with forfeiting, the game should end in the marines being overwhelmed and slaughtered IMHO. Just giving up isn't fun for either side.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It beats 10 minutes of marines camping MS on one node against 3 hive aliens with the entire map in control, or a team of skulks trying to retake turreted up Hives against HAs pushing ever so slowly. Nobody wants to give up prematurely, but sometimes it's better to start a new game faster than wait around for what everybody knows is a foregone conclusion. There should already be plenty of slaughter leading up to losing the game.

Bacillus

<!--quoteo(post=1696014:date=Dec 13 2008, 01:19 AM:name=Sarisel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sarisel @ Dec 13 2008, 01:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1696014"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If buffing hive 3 is the path taken, then a possibility is to create a scenario where having hive 3 starts boosting the health and damage dealt by all alien lifeforms at a certain rate per second, perhaps increasing in an exponential manner after a certain amount of time. Call it an evolution explosion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This might be the best alternative on NS1 logic. Make it so that the 3rd hive abilities receive a huge boost after the 3rd hive has been up for a minute or so. That way there's still a slight chance if you're pushing the 3rd hive and it barely goes up. If you can't take it out in a minute you're dead anyway, so the boost doesn't end up deciding the game.

La Chupacabra

<!--quoteo(post=1695930:date=Dec 11 2008, 11:08 PM:name=Killer Ricochet)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Killer Ricochet @ Dec 11 2008, 11:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1695930"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The idea is simple. Reduce game turtling. Suggestions:
-Eletric building lose effectiveness if more than 2-3 are created in same range.
-<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=105299&view=findpost&p=1695948" target="_blank">#3<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--> post<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></a> Surrender button (Evacuate the ship).
-<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=105299&view=findpost&p=1695981" target="_blank">#6<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--> post<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></a> After a time in advantage, the winning team can call a votation to force the loosing team forfeit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
people do it all the time - f4 or retry in console...

I always hate when people leave faster. Finishing Hive/base rush is the best moment in the game...

Killer Ricochet

First, the 3rd hive gives match finishing (a.k.a. overpowered) buffs to every alien after some time. Everyone agree, right?
Second, when victory is certain, a votation can be made.
If most players of <u>both teams</u> vote yes, end match. <!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Maybe Fades killing Marines and CC dominated by DI little video & HAs HMGing and GLing everything little video.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
So if most people agree that it's unecessary extending game, the game ends. And it's not so laming as f4ing.
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Detail, only winning team should be able to start the votation. As Chupacabra said, there still people who enjoys breaking the turtle.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->

Well, this is it for now. Editing main topic.

Sarisel

Speaking of DI, that could actually be implemented into hive abilities as well. At third hive, perhaps the DI can give more of an advantage to aliens that are near it. If the marines are turtling, the DI could become more and more aggressive, moving faster into the marine base and destroying buildings, draining health from marines, etc. while aliens are given the advantage necessary to bring the game to a quick end.

Also, post #1 needs to be corrected in that the third hive wouldn't give everyone overpowered buffs - rather only to alien side. Also, I would say that the buffs should get greater in increments - so that it becomes more and more difficult to continue turtling until marines just buckle due to their inactivity.

Killer Ricochet

Good pointing, added the DI idea and fixed the "everyone". Better formatation too.

<!--quoteo(post=1696057:date=Dec 13 2008, 05:48 PM:name=Sarisel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sarisel @ Dec 13 2008, 05:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1696057"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, I would say that the buffs should get greater in increments - so that it becomes more and more difficult to continue turtling until marines just buckle due to their inactivity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Imagining a wave of 350/50 hp skulks <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />

PseudoKnight

I always hated the idea of sabotaging the quality of end-game gameplay just to make it quicker. Instead I prefer the idea of the team voting to give up and then create a short and meaningless but fun end scenario. For example, the marines vote to surrender the area. An alarm goes off with the voice announcing a retreat. A door opens up, all structures start recycling, and all marines have 30 seconds to get into the escape pod. It's not unlike the end of rounds in TF2 or DOD:S, completely meaningless, but an extra bit of fun. Of course, in this case it'd be a little more interesting. For the kharaa, I was thinking maybe that when the vote goes forward to give up, the hives shrivel up, all kharaa let off a yowl to signal both marines and aliens of what's happening. Then all aliens xenocide (probably 2x skulk xenocide, just to be fun) upon death or 30 seconds, whichever comes first. This gives them one last chance to do some fun damage.

With that end game, I'd hope that it'd be amusing enough that people would accept surrenders and not complain about them. It'd give them something to laugh about at the end of most rounds instead of being disappointed that they lost or they didn't get to clobber the team in the end because they all F4'd.

ghost in the shell

Maybe we could lower the voting margin?
Currently if 1/3 of the team F4s then the other team wins.
If it was lowered to a Quarter then the moment three people have to go to the bathroom the game ends...
Could it be a set amount? like 5 or 6 so that small games wouldn't die when 1 guy lose interest
Mappers should do there part and make more interesting Ready Rooms for all the rage quitters.

<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Have a mini game betting res over which team will win<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->

PseudoKnight

I was thinking just a majority vote with an actual withdrawal system instead of "quitting" with F4.

1mannARMEE

If you take a look at Dawn of War, its all about controlling areas, there are different points on the map (like our res nodes) but there are also critical locations and special locations (relics, for some special end tech stuff) the points force the players to not turtle and spread around the map and there are also winning conditions to hold the majority of the normal locations and other ones for critical locations.

We can take this idea to NS needs just a little modifying <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />

Sirot

I think one time surrendering via vote or F4 is a horrible way to deal with this issue. Players should be able to have the glory of killing of the team if they win the match. The marines have a much easier end game thanks to their siege cannons and their particular effective against hives. I am in support of the aggressive infestation idea being the alien equivalent of siege.

CanadianWolverine

<!--quoteo(post=1696075:date=Dec 14 2008, 01:09 AM:name=PseudoKnight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PseudoKnight @ Dec 14 2008, 01:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1696075"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I always hated the idea of sabotaging the quality of end-game gameplay just to make it quicker. Instead I prefer the idea of the team voting to give up and then create a short and meaningless but fun end scenario. For example, the marines vote to surrender the area. An alarm goes off with the voice announcing a retreat. A door opens up, all structures start recycling, and all marines have 30 seconds to get into the escape pod. It's not unlike the end of rounds in TF2 or DOD:S, completely meaningless, but an extra bit of fun. Of course, in this case it'd be a little more interesting. For the kharaa, I was thinking maybe that when the vote goes forward to give up, the hives shrivel up, all kharaa let off a yowl to signal both marines and aliens of what's happening. Then all aliens xenocide (probably 2x skulk xenocide, just to be fun) upon death or 30 seconds, whichever comes first. This gives them one last chance to do some fun damage.

With that end game, I'd hope that it'd be amusing enough that people would accept surrenders and not complain about them. It'd give them something to laugh about at the end of most rounds instead of being disappointed that they lost or they didn't get to clobber the team in the end because they all F4'd.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

That sounds like a lot of fun, I think I would love a mad dash for the escape pods or whatever is the equivalent on the Kharaa side. Decided by a clear majority vote (say 60%) by that side to attempt a "morale victory". Heck, I already like to pretend that jumping down pits to die on some maps can be considered that - you still lose but you sorta got away. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />

ghost in the shell

It would still be fun to bet over who will win.

Killer Ricochet

I doubt the "surrender to play minigame option" will be used in competitive servers, as they're there to play 'til the end.

I think this is more a thing of pub servers (what doesn't take it's merit).

PseudoKnight

Well, another option (to avoid the vote) is to implement an automatic system. Many games, both RTS and FPS, have used a ticket system. If this general concept could be adapted to fit NS then when a team gets far enough ahead it will trigger the functions I mentioned earlier (escape pods for marines, suicide runs for aliens -- both a short ~30 second fun time). Take the World in Conflict back-and-forth GUI, for example. Now adapt it to NS. If a team has one more node than the other, it starts favoring that team at a snail's pace. If a team has two more nodes than the other team, then it increases speed towards the end game indicator. This allows comebacks since you don't have to break the gameplay. It prevents long hold-out stalemates. And you can actually have and use interesting third hive abilities instead of making them throw-away end game abilities that you rarely see. Anyway, that way you don't have to vote and it still includes the FUN end-game instead of the annoying one.

ghost in the shell

i've seen aliens win with almost 3 times as many deaths as the marines
If you do that then the point changes from kill the hive/ take res control
to kill them all and base r@#$ them

ps rine would win flat out with an sg rush