Buy PROPER game engine and focus to gameplay...

mothman · October 2008

<div class="IPBDescription">I think NS2 developing progress in bad way by new game engine :(</div>Hi all!

I try to be positive, but <b>this is my opinion</b> about new engine, sorry... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />

I have programming and little game developing experience so it's not just a theory badly:

Making a new game engine is unpredictable about time, money and game play...
<i>(It you are a game developer, you will agree with me - sadly.)</i>

My idea: buy Doom 3 / Quake 4 ... or if no money (use Quake 3 engine) and <b>FOCUS to NS GAME PLAY, IDEAS</b>.

I show in my country so many DEAD development... Game engine was nearly (95-99%) done, but not fully done, no more time or no more money, or 100% done but not enough good (outdated, not enough nice, not playable as multiplayer, bug with 20+ player, etc...) ... and project DIED.

I don't want read this in end of 2010 at this website:

<u>"Sorry guys, we have no more resources (money and time) to finish Natural Selection 2. We currently have nearly done game engine with extremely detailed shadows, like a real world... but multiplayer still not playable, game don't working and no chance to will be finished based on this engine. We have excellent concept, but still no working game engine. This engine too nice for gaming... but too ugly for render engine like LightWave or 3D Studio Max... Hard to say that, but we failed about Natural-Selection 2."</u>

I know, making a new game engine is so big prestige... and big money... if it GOOD (for game engine owners).

Current Natural Selection based of hardly modified Quake 1 engine (Quake 1 - Half-Life 1 - Natural Selection).
Make a real public vote: player's 90% will be happy with Quake 3 engine with Natural Selection 2 concept! Or 95%?

I know, if you choose Quake 3 or Quake 4 engine, NS will be a "modified" game, not "fully original" and it's bad for developers... maybe not enough money for that and not enough big prestige for NS developers because it's "JUST" a modification. <i>And no money... but why I do that? For fun?! No... for money... so... need own game engine...</i>

If I can choose:

<b>1. In 2009 spring: playable, excellent Natural Selection 2 based on Quake 3 / Quake 4 engine</b>

- or -

<b>2. In 2011 spring: still beta, nice, but buggy, unplayable, unoptimised network client/server code based Natural Selection based on OWN engine</b>

...

Hate me, but<b> I choose: 1. (because I love current NS, and I want predictable future for NS2)</b>

<b><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%">It's just my personal opinion.</span></b>

Respect for all NS developers, I hope my theory bad and the own game engine will be BETTER PLAYABLE than Quake 3.

I think it's little chance, but WE HAVE CHANCE for that. (New engine seems like NICER than Quake 3 - but who cares? Can really playable with multiplayer? no one knows it. Quake 3 have good references about multiplayer features... )

Trust me, I know how hard to make a real game engine. (use assembly code for kernel, and c/c++ for other - new game engine will also extremely optimised game kernel in assembly language, like REAL game engines?)

John Carmack know, how to make game engines. (He have world one of best references about game engines. He is genius.)
I think, NS developers knows, how to make models, textures, game play.

<b>Who think any NS developer can make BETTER network code than John Carmack?</b> (You really think that?)
<b>Who think NS developers can make better optimised server-client communications than John Carmack?</b> (You really think that?)
<b>Who think NS developers can make multiple game server support based on certain CPUs and operating systems, like 32/64 bit Intel/AMD CPUs with Windows 32 bit / 64 bit / Linux (x86, x86_64 / i686) support?</b> (You really think it? When currently - started from beginning (2+ year) the linux based NS servers crashes randomly with 32 players - and NS developers <b>cannot fix this small issue</b> in last few years - you really think they can make BETTER or same GOOD game engine asap?)

Can I see ANY same or better references from NS developers about game engine? (How work with 30 player, how many server and client cpu/memory/network bandwidth usage? How we can create maps, custom models, for Natural Selection 2?)

NS lovers just want play.

This is my theory: use an "excellent, finished, working and TESTED" game engine and focus to customise game engine and make better game play than current NS.

<b>My opinion</b> but no one ask me: use the 1. one... the Quake 3 / Quake 4 engine... publish Natural Selection 2 based this engine... and AFTER this just make own game engine... and if it's excellent, finished, working and TESTED, make Natural Selection 2 RELOADED version, move Natural Selection 2 ideas to this really own engine.

It's better for PLAYERS, but worst for NS owners, I know. Because bigger money if make own game engine with NS2 concept... I know...
My plan safer and more predictable than the current NS2 development plan - I know. But who need <b>that</b> plan?

<b>Again, respect for NS developers and I hope my theory fail and Natural Selection 2 engine will be the world one of best game engine... and we can play with that game in 2009 spring or faster. And we will noticed extremely optimised frame rate, network code, multiplayer features, and more...</b>

<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tiny.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::onos::" border="0" alt="tiny.gif" />
MoTi

PS.: It's just personal opinion and theory, so please blame me - because I see too dark the Natural Selection 2's future <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> I wanna SEE with my own eyes: my theory fail and NS2 will be a great best-seller game, like Half-Life, Quake or WoW series. I hope that. Sorry about my bad English...

aNytiMe · October 2008

You are grossly underestimating Charlie "Flayra" Cleveland. If this guy can't make his own engine and game, nobody can. I don't think I've seen a more talented game developer. Plus he's got Max to help.

ryknow69 · October 2008

Yes, if they could, I think they'd bit** slap John Carmack, and say they made better. Max and Charlie looked determined to get this done, and as soon as they get the engine running, the community, the large, FU**ING MASSIVE, Community, can finally help UWE out by developing maps, help make bodys, models, skins, mostly, all the team needs is the engine functioning, and balance, while the community gets all the other sh** done. The community can do everything else but coding, hell, they can even do that if the UWE trusted them enough, then the Dev Team can take the community's models, edit them abit, then use this guy's skins, change the depth look, lighting, then apply it, then they can code what that baby can do, and what health it got, and maybe another community thing, a code, that shows the marine do.... a melee butte with his LMG, or a code that shows a skulk scratching his ass with his claw if he stands still long enough. This is what the UWE can rely on, a large community, full of mappers, coders, skinners, 3D Modelers, Developers, and devoted people willing to learn that crap I just listed.

May UWE get the engine up, so we, the community, can get the side crap, the skins, the models, and the maps, all done so they can balance, provide, and inspire us ALL!

^I Love, LOVE, making speeches, I should make another Word document full of them like I did ago, all about NS2 >=D

mothman · October 2008

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aNytiMe @ Oct 24 2008, 03:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1691258"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>You are grossly underestimating Charlie "Flayra" Cleveland. If this guy can't make his own engine and game, nobody can. I don't think I've seen a more talented game developer. Plus he's got Max to help.</div>

<span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><b>No, I don't underestimating Flayra.
He is the "GOD" of NS.</b></span>
Just making game engine if different than make a modification based on "done" engine (like Half-Life 1).

Game developing have many parts:<ul><li>Game play design</li><li>Game concept, story</li><li>Sounds</li><li>Animations</li><li>Game engine</li><li>Testing</li></ul>
Game engine is the hardest work I think - this is why so many licensed game engine in the world. You think it's random?

If you want imagine that:<ul><li>Making "Half-life 1" based mod: about 10 primary items in check list. </li><li>Making "brand new" game engine: about 100 or more primary items in check list - depends on engine features.</li></ul>Only programmer can feel that who ever tried to make any multiplayer game engine - how not easy that.

<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tiny.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::onos::" border="0" alt="tiny.gif" />
MoTi

CanadianWolverine · October 2008

Sheesh...

This thread is actually getting responses and no lock down yet?

Then I suppose it should be said to this "suggestion" (see: rant)

<b>Vote NO</b> on licensing another engine

Relax, this has all been brought up before when they first announced it and the Devs (yes, there are more than one or even two) themselves indicated it was a difficult yet necessary decision to take their already existing map "viewer" in their editor and just roll with all the resources they already had.

Honestly, why do you think a new non-specific so called proper game engine would be any different than trying to get NS2 playable in Source?

Man, your rant is so yesterday. We've been over this before - seriously, lock this thread up before it devolves into flames ... worse than any perceived ones in my post, I am trying to be nice about the amount of hyperbole fail in this "suggestion".

aNytiMe · October 2008

The above post is MADE of flame, lol.

CanadianWolverine · October 2008

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aNytiMe @ Oct 24 2008, 09:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1691320"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>The above post is MADE of flame, lol.</div>

Pretty much, and I swear I was trying to be nice, but the "suggestion" is just so... Ahh, forget it, I already said it. *shrug*

ryknow69 · October 2008

^Old?

Well, if you can just be smart and read, the guy's foreign, by how the typing goes, and translates abit. The topic should be locked, hell, I didn't know someone made a simular topic so don't flame on people that it was already made. But we all agree, they are doing what they think is best for the Natural Selection's future.

darktimes · October 2008

no, please no.
i am nice here, but my first tought was very offensive and insulting. and none want to hear that.

first: shut up whit quake engine 3/4. they tried it whit source. a way more powerfull engine whit many custimisationable parts. and source wasnt the engine for NS2. now,

second: it taked 7 months from the first start of the new engine to the first ingame video. this is about 2x faster as whit the previous engine.

third: seriuosly. if you cant wait for ns2, forgett about it, leave the forum, and return when the first gameplay video is out. this is easy to do and get you alot of frustation and trouble away from you.

7th.Wrath · October 2008

It is much, MUCH easier to write your own engine than use one written by another person.
Why?
Simply because you know the code already.

The NS2 engine is already fairly developed. As someone said, they already tried source, and it did not work out for them. The game will probably will be done faster and better with their own engine.

You say use another engine. Why just make another mod? They already DID. It is called NS1. They want to make a GAME this time.

ryknow69 · October 2008

You can't really sell a mod, they want to sell the game, so they want to make a cool new engine. I predict alot of mods using the NS2 engine, most being dark games, like z0mbi3 Mayhem, ya de da. The game is already looking great, so don't bit**.

Phlash · October 2008

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(7th.Wrath @ Oct 25 2008, 10:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1691396"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>It is much, MUCH easier to write your own engine than use one written by another person.
Why?
Simply because you know the code already.
The NS2 engine is already fairly developed. As someone said, they already tried source, and it did not work out for them. The game will probably will be done faster and better with their own engine.

You say use another engine. Why just make another mod? They already DID. It is called NS1. They want to make a GAME this time.</div>
This.

People seem to forget that the reason they stopped using Source was because they couldn't implement the things that they wanted to, such as dynamic infestation. Why would they go with a 3rd party engine that in the end will limit what they are capable of, when they can instead use an engine Max developed that looks to be progressing extremely well, and will be tailored to their needs, i.e. be flexible enough to support all of the cool things they want to put in the game? It makes no sense not to make their own engine, actually. Considering how awesome the craptacular (in this day and age!!!) NS1 art looks on this new engine, we should only expect more of the same, especially if they implement new art into the game. I'm extremely excited for the new engine, to be honest.

haymo · October 2008

You guys need to understand that Max is on of the leading game programmers in the world. He has built engines before and can do it again. As we can see it is coming along nicely, and with Max working on the engine and Flayra working on the gameplay, with Matt and others on the artistic helm I can't see too much of a real delay.

Bacillus · October 2008

I am amazed how far they've pushed the HL 1 engine during the NS development, but still it limits the commander mode and such heavily. A mod can live with the flaws NS has, but an individual commercial release should be more polished than that if you ask me. It's probably a lot easier to get a clean start for NS2 than to try to fight the limits of the source engine.

locallyunscene · October 2008

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Phlash @ Oct 25 2008, 04:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1691408"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>People seem to forget that the reason they stopped using Source was because they couldn't implement the things that they wanted to, such as dynamic infestation. Why would they go with a 3rd party engine that in the end will limit what they are capable of, when they can instead use an engine Max developed that looks to be progressing extremely well, and will be tailored to their needs, i.e. be flexible enough to support all of the cool things they want to put in the game?</div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ Oct 27 2008, 09:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1691546"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I am amazed how far they've pushed the HL 1 engine during the NS development, but still it limits the commander mode and such heavily. A mod can live with the flaws NS has, but an individual commercial release should be more polished than that if you ask me. It's probably a lot easier to get a clean start for NS2 than to try to fight the limits of the source engine.</div>
QFT.

mothman · October 2008

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(7th.Wrath @ Oct 25 2008, 04:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1691396"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>It is much, MUCH easier to write your own engine than use one written by another person.
Why?
Simply because you know the code already.
The NS2 engine is already fairly developed. As someone said, they already tried source, and it did not work out for them. The game will probably will be done faster and better with their own engine.

You say use another engine. Why just make another mod? They already DID. It is called NS1. They want to make a GAME this time.</div>

I disagree with you.
For good game engine have documentation and API, so you can learn what you needed for development and easy to use it.
My opinion: new working "mod" better than "unfinished game".
I hope my theory failed and soon "bugfree" NS2 out...

<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tiny.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::onos::" border="0" alt="tiny.gif" />
MoTi

ryknow69 · October 2008

QFT =? me abbreviation nub.

Konohas Perverted Hermit · October 2008

Rant too long I didn't read it all but I got the gist. I'd have to agree with the quote below.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aNytiMe @ Oct 23 2008, 06:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1691258"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>You are grossly underestimating Charlie "Flayra" Cleveland. If this guy can't make his own engine and game, nobody can. I don't think I've seen a more talented game developer. Plus he's got Max to help.</div>

Swiftspear · October 2008

<a href="http://www.alientrap.org/nexuiz/" target="_blank">These guys</a> Made their own first person engine and it worked good.

With the ammount of open code available to indie developers, building your own engine isn't God's territory any more. A smart coder can do it solo.

ryknow69 · October 2008

yes, ever since alot of the coding is now available, making an engine by yourself isnt "YOU FU**ING CRAZY?!" I think Max and Charlie, and all the others, can get the job done, cause if they can't, god help us all, it's the apocolypse, end of all days, you won't have to worry about NS2 anymore, cause you'll be dead.

invader Zim · October 2008

Sorry guys, we have no more resources (money and time) to finish Natural Selection 2. We currently have nearly done game engine with extremely detailed shadows, like a real world... but multiplayer still not playable, game don't working and no chance to will be finished based on this engine. We have excellent concept, but still no working game engine. This engine too nice for gaming... but too ugly for render engine like LightWave or 3D Studio Max... Hard to say that, but we failed about Natural-Selection 2."

i think you could get a similar response to this if theyd stuck with the valve engine or gone over to another. They'd be trying to make an unfamilar piece of software do what it wasnt entirely designed to do and this would involve alot of black box work.

it seems to me that they took the decision to make their own engine as it would give them a higher chance of finishing the project. Most other engines out there wernt designed with Dynamic infestation, commander mode, Alien tunnels, and other dynamic map elements in mind. Creating an engine with these aspects in mind it would appear seemed to be a better option than getting another engine to do it.

they could easily be saying "sorry we couldnt sort out all the compatabilty options with X engine and ran out of money" rather than we couldnt finish our engine. I spose they could have bought an engine and then scratched any ideas they couldnt get to work within that engine. But then we may end up with a very watered down game and instead loose out on game play.

ryknow69 · October 2008

Boo to that, Yea for new engine!

Konohas Perverted Hermit · October 2008

Exactly. By doing their own engine they can code things into it that they are going to want in the game without having to manipulate through millions of lines of someone else's code.

bl00k · October 2008

To reply to the Original Poster; I personally hate the Quake 3 engine. I'm pretty excited for the new engine after seeing the tech demo in action and hearing about the features they are putting in. Fully dynamic lighting is very exciting for this game.

I hope they are able to complete everything they set out to. I don't want them to run out of money or time either, but I don't think buying an engine will solve their problems. Remember they were already working on NS2 with Source and found it to be inefficient for them. I appreciate your opinion but I am content to just sit back, be patient and be supportive of the team.

Give us something great guys!

ryknow69 · October 2008

They will, ohh, you can bet on that, they will, or else >=P

Buy PROPER game engine and focus to gameplay...

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