Self-sufficiency inside of a team
aNytiMe
Join Date: 2008-03-31 Member: 64007Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2008-03-31 Member: 64007Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Question for Charlie/Max</div>You've mentioned this in another thread:
<!--quoteo(post=1690982:date=Oct 21 2008, 05:15 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Flayra @ Oct 21 2008, 05:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1690982"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- The Commander and non-Comms are more decoupled so they can each be more effective on their own. Of course the best teams will have everyone working together, but Commanders will be able to be effective with braindead non-Comms (through the use of AI builder bots/nymphs and spell-like abilities) and the ability for marines to buy their own weapons/equipment from armories.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Could you please elaborate on it in the next podcast?
How far are you willing to take it? Will we see mobile sentry turrets make their way into the game? Will the alien team have the same degree of self-sufficiency from gorges? I can totally see dynamic infestation replacing some of the gorge's responsibilities, such as dropping RTs.
On an unrelated note, could you also talk about your reasoning behind dropping the large map feel of vanilla NS? Will we still have all of the tools to bring the NS1 maps into NS2?
<!--quoteo(post=1690982:date=Oct 21 2008, 05:15 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Flayra @ Oct 21 2008, 05:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1690982"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- The Commander and non-Comms are more decoupled so they can each be more effective on their own. Of course the best teams will have everyone working together, but Commanders will be able to be effective with braindead non-Comms (through the use of AI builder bots/nymphs and spell-like abilities) and the ability for marines to buy their own weapons/equipment from armories.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Could you please elaborate on it in the next podcast?
How far are you willing to take it? Will we see mobile sentry turrets make their way into the game? Will the alien team have the same degree of self-sufficiency from gorges? I can totally see dynamic infestation replacing some of the gorge's responsibilities, such as dropping RTs.
On an unrelated note, could you also talk about your reasoning behind dropping the large map feel of vanilla NS? Will we still have all of the tools to bring the NS1 maps into NS2?
Comments
My 2 cents anwyay.
My 2 cents anwyay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree. Boxer should be able to win a game with a non-existent marine team (skill-wise) against a decent alien team by micromanaging his NPC units.
I have this cool idea: A mobile sentry is a marine and a skulk is a zealot, you need godlike micro and 3 sentries against 1 skulk? Also, give the sentries a shield ability which lasts for .3 seconds and takes 1 second to recharge, but reduces damage by half. So not only will a good commander need to give the correct move and attack orders to the sentry, but he will also need to select the sentry about to take damage and shield it.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=104993" target="_blank">I've suggested it in this thread.</a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBZA-ZG5NWU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBZA-ZG5NWU</a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfxmHIgvMYs" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfxmHIgvMYs</a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQtPMLOctBg&NR=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQtPMLOctBg&NR=1</a>
Ideally the Comm's role will be clearly defined. In NS1 his role was to create the strategy. That is why being a Comm in NS1 is mostly not a fun experience as the strategy is created by the whole team. This leaves the Comm with nothing more than to do than drop meds and researches upgrades. When the whole team is doing someone's job, it detracts from that person's experience.
Obviously I hope more is added to the Comm's duties, and I hope the Comm is given a unique and purposeful role. If the Comm's role in NS2 was more of a support role then I'd love to see some high intensity micro to reflect that. Something like... ammo, when researched, that grants a +X% damage bonus to a particular lifeform for a handful of seconds. For example, a comm pans over and sees a marine shooting a lerk, so he nails his hotkey for the 'lerk damage' ammo and drops some on the marine. My idea may have been crappy, but you get the picture -- a boost (in damage, life, armor, whatever) that lasts a short amount of time and takes skill to pull off. Just enough to tip the scales, if one Comm is superior to another but not enough to unbalance the game.
I know the dev's have said that dislike the idea of having a Comm play a direct role in battle. I don't know if the above example is 'direct' or not, but something like a mobile sentry probably is.
If the aliens are good then, ideally, marines will need to work with their commander. Commander won't be able to solo that one, because sentries would be paper against alien players that mastered movement techniques/have gorge teamwork.
Are you playing NS ? Did you have a clanplay experience (even as a MERC) ?
Instead of a long text and a copy / paste of what was said for 5 years...
NS 1 0 1 : TEAMWORK IS EVERYTHING!!!
NS 1 0 2 : TEAMWORK IS (F**kin) EVERYTHING!!!
NS 1 0 3 : refer to rules N°1 & 2
...
I know that repetition is the key to pedagogy but: How many times do we have to say it ?
NS is a game that has an unusual potential. If you remove that; it's like playing Q3, AVP, DOD, CS, TFC whatever symetric game you can think of.
NS teams are disymetrical (alien / marins) and inside the team you have disymetry again (commander/field marins/HA/JP Vs Gorge/skulk/lerk/fade/onos). In NS 1 they need each other to achieve that simple goal: Win. Alone they are nothing but crap. It is what makes the game still played.
Are you playing NS ? Did you have a clanplay experience (even as a MERC) ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes to question 1.
Yes to question 2.
Yes to statement 1.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Instead of a long text and a copy / paste of what was said for 5 years...
NS 1 0 1 : TEAMWORK IS EVERYTHING!!!
NS 1 0 2 : TEAMWORK IS (F**kin) EVERYTHING!!!
NS 1 0 3 : refer to rules N°1 & 2<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have obviously not been playing the game I've been playing because there is no teamwork in pubs. If you disagree that means you either play on Tactical Gamer (elitist) or you are a novice. The commander will have plenty of opportunities to gauge the skill of the team, and maybe decide to blow all of the res on a cri. player instead of sentries.
Playing on the competitive level won't be changed because spending the 10-15 res on a marine with >50% aim beats building a sentry.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...
I know that repetition is the key to pedagogy but: How many times do we have to say it ?
NS is a game that has an unusual potential. If you remove that; it's like playing Q3, AVP, DOD, CS, TFC whatever symetric game you can think of.
NS teams are disymetrical (alien / marins) and inside the team you have disymetry again (commander/field marins/HA/JP Vs Gorge/skulk/lerk/fade/onos). In NS 1 they need each other to achieve that simple goal: Win. Alone they are nothing but crap. It is what makes the game still played.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So how does this idea challenge the asymmetry of the team(s)?
Well shouldn't the <u>commander</u> be playing a RTS game?
Well, he should be playing a team based multiplayer too. I just feel you can't make NS work similar to the 'solo' RTS games, because of the 5+ other players in your team. So, I'd just focus on using the human factor for the good of the game instead of trying to to eliminate it completely once one player is above the others.
And what if there is no semblance of teamwork among the other 5 players? Should the commander do
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->exec pubcommanding.cfg
bind mouse1 disconnect
bind mouse2 disconnect
bind mouse3 disconnect
bind q disconnect
bind w disconnect
bind e disconnect
bind r disconnect
etc...<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
?
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->exec pubcommanding.cfg
bind mouse1 disconnect
bind mouse2 disconnect
bind mouse3 disconnect
bind q disconnect
bind w disconnect
bind e disconnect
bind r disconnect
etc...<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe he could support the team with the similar system as now. It's not that bad and it still could be improved in every aspect a lot. I mean, its annoying to play with a newbie team, but it shouldn't be much of a problem to switch the server if NS2 is going to be any popular. Further on, the competetive scene should be a lot more active if you can't live with the pub chaos.
What should a newbie team do if the commander is above their level? Run around pointlessly until the comm wins the round for them?
I tend to agree with you <b>Bacillus</b>, but I think Charlie has made up his mind to have players in a team be more self-sufficient. Teamwork is not one of the pillars of NS2. Co-operative is in, teamwork is on it's way out. I don't like the change, but I still think NS2 has the potential to be a great game.
Oh okay, so now you have a disconnecting commander problem. Instead of at least giving the marine team a chance to win, you now completely removed it.
<!--quoteo(post=1691630:date=Oct 28 2008, 03:26 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ Oct 28 2008, 03:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1691630"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What should a newbie team do if the commander is above their level? Run around pointlessly until the comm wins the round for them?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, they should spend the time to get a hang of the game while the commander wins it for them.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe he could support the team with the similar system as now. It's not that bad and it still could be improved in every aspect a lot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So at least give your team buffs while they run around doing diddly? Many commanders will get very frustrated.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Teamwork is not one of the pillars of NS2. Co-operative is in, teamwork is on it's way out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Under the system I proposed, self sufficiency is merely an option. An option that won't be viable against an alien team with movement skill and <b>gorge teamwork</b>.
NS is in its decline phase.
You're arguing the game design premise of a brand new game based on an old declining game. That isn't good logic.
A commander shouldn't be able to win the game anymore than any other player can. Sure, I can rambo into the hive and tie up the aliens, but if no one caps nodes, and no one upgrades anything, and no one kills resource towers, and no one shotguns the early lerk, I'm toast.
NS is not primarily a game of skill. The strategy is subordinate to the skill is subordinate to the teamwork. I personally enjoy games where I can outplay every single one of my opponents by brute force more than I enjoy NS (this is why I fade). Despite that, trying to remove the necessity of teamwork from NS (even for a <i>furious</i> commander), the game loses a quality that is integral to its brand.
NS is in its decline phase.
You're arguing the game design premise of a brand new game based on an old declining game. That isn't good logic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's an interesting strawman attack you've made. Do you do this often?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A commander shouldn't be able to win the game anymore than any other player can. Sure, I can rambo into the hive and tie up the aliens, but if no one caps nodes, and no one upgrades anything, and no one kills resource towers, and no one shotguns the early lerk, I'm toast.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In NS2, you'll be able to solo into the hive, get 50 kills and then buy yourself a million shotguns. This is called self sufficiency. Marines will have it, why shouldn't the commander?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS is not primarily a game of skill. The strategy is subordinate to the skill is subordinate to the teamwork. I personally enjoy games where I can outplay every single one of my opponents by brute force more than I enjoy NS (this is why I fade). Despite that, trying to remove the necessity of teamwork from NS (even for a <i>furious</i> commander), the game loses a quality that is integral to its brand.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is precisely untrue. Teamwork is useless without skill. Skill isn't useless without teamwork. Sure you might have perfect organization, but how is it going to help you if you're getting slaughtered before you accomplish anything useful? I know you've commanded enough to just palm your face whenever your marines can't do something vital to your effort due to incompetence. This is what happens in pretty much in an overwhelming majority of pubs.
Every time I suggested something, I've basically been raped by people who have absolutely 0 reading comprehension. This is like trying to argue with devout Christians about the existence of god. If you read anything I wrote above you'll notice that teamwork isn't removed, instead, the commander has a choice of whether he should utilize teamwork with his marines, or judge his marines incompetent and play with bots instead of players. This won't be frowned upon in NS because the marines will also be able to be self sufficient. Once again, don't make teamwork a necessity, but reward it generously if it exists.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You have obviously not been playing the game I've been playing because there is no teamwork in pubs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1691681:date=Oct 28 2008, 10:41 PM:name=)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE( @ Oct 28 2008, 10:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1691681"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In NS2, you'll be able to solo into the hive, get 50 kills and then buy yourself a million shotguns. This is called self sufficiency. Marines will have it, why shouldn't the commander?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This argument is based on assumption.
<!--quoteo(post=1691681:date=Oct 28 2008, 10:41 PM:name=aNytiMe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aNytiMe @ Oct 28 2008, 10:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1691681"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is precisely untrue. Teamwork is useless without skill. Skill isn't useless without teamwork.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I said <b>subordinate</b>, not <b>useful</b>. For someone as defensive as you are about reading comprehension, your vocabulary is sorely lacking, as is your degree of objectivity in regard to this or the upcomping instance of NS.
You may consider resolving your victim complex in regard to internet forums. It would allow you to benefit from discussions on topics more complex than how to balance a videogame.
It isn't that hard to use a favourite server list to play on the servers that actually have developed a somewhat skilled and smart playerbase. Otherwise, you can just go clanning. Everyone knows to expect the worst while hopping in the chair on public.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, they should spend the time to get a hang of the game while the commander wins it for them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We've seen how the irresponsibility greatly slows down the learning on big servers.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So at least give your team buffs while they run around doing diddly? Many commanders will get very frustrated.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Still many people end up in the chair even with NS1 pub rines.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Under the system I proposed, self sufficiency is merely an option. An option that won't be viable against an alien team with movement skill and <b>gorge teamwork</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, so once again, you're able to go wtfpwn on some newbie servers. Does this change much on the game while you're playing even remotely close to the players of your level?
I think it's more they don't like your idea but cant express why.
In your original post you quoted Flay saying how Comms can still be effective with a poor team through builder bots and spell like abilities. You're hoping that he can elaborate to tell you that a great commander can win the game by himself even if his marines are crap. I doubt he's going to tell you that, and I don't think many of the posters here want to hear him say that.
I could probably find the quotes if I really cared enough, but Flay's said a couple times that he doesn't want the commander to have access to direct damage type spells. I believe the quote was something along the lines of "it wouldn't be fun for aliens to keep dying to the commander and have the feeling that there's nothing they can do about it, since the comm is in the chair." Assuming I'm correct, this would probably negate the comm's ability to win largely in part by their own power.
They may add combat AI, like mobile sentries, since at least the aliens would have something to attack in the physical world and dying randomly out of thin air (like they would be with direct damage spells). If they do add that AI I would expect it to suck. I would expect it to have horrible pathfinding, buggy movements, and mediocre aim.
Making the commander something more than a baby sitter and adding depth is an incredibly difficult task. If I were designed my own NS-like video game, defining what the commander should do would be the single hardest thing. In NS1 the commander often got in the way of the team by failing to drop weapons / upgrades / whatever. Adding more support spells to the role may give it that same feeling, adding direct damage spells seems to be out of the question, and adding AI seems to be incredibly difficult for a lot of different reasons.
Pot, meet Kettle.
<!--quoteo(post=1691681:date=Oct 28 2008, 10:41 PM:name=aNytiMe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aNytiMe @ Oct 28 2008, 10:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1691681"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you read anything I wrote above you'll notice that teamwork isn't removed, instead, the commander has a choice of whether he should utilize teamwork with his marines, or judge his marines incompetent and play with bots instead of players. This won't be frowned upon in NS because the marines will also be able to be self sufficient. Once again, don't make teamwork a necessity, but reward it generously if it exists.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And many people are against the idea of having teamwork not be required. Your topic is about three things A.) asking the devs to elaborate on a quote(10% of discussion) B.) The idea of player sufficiency vs. required teamwork (90% of discussion) C.) An AI turret and some various other I&S suggestions (0% discussion so far).
Here's why I said co-operative is in and teamwork is out. The distinction is short term versus long term objectives. In TF2, if a medic ubers heavy a to kill someone or destroy something, that's a short term objective and co-operative play. If a medic uber's a heavy to rush past the enemy team to the last cap point while the rest of the team pushes, that's teamwork. TF2 has a lot of cooperative play, but not a lot of teamwork. NS1 is pretty much the opposite of TF2 in that respect and that is one of the reasons I like NS1 better than TF2.
I still have fun playing TF2 and I still think NS2 will be a good game, but this is an area where I think the baby is being thrown out with the bathwater.
<!--quoteo(post=1691683:date=Oct 29 2008, 03:58 AM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Oct 29 2008, 03:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1691683"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This argument is based on assumption.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This argument is based on the buy menu and extrapolation (which is different from assumption) from the dev team saying that there will be greater self sufficiency inside of a team.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I said <b>subordinate</b>, not <b>useful</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This doesn't change the fact that it is false. Skill isn't subordinate to teamwork. It isn't a prerequisite of teamwork either, you can have teamwork without skill - except that it would fail miserably as soon as the opposing team shows up for the party. You can also have skill without teamwork also, so the two aren't connected.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For someone as defensive as you are about reading comprehension, your vocabulary is sorely lacking, as is your degree of objectivity in regard to this or the upcomping instance of NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To use the vernacular, it's all about the
<img src="http://img.waffleimages.com/ca54a7b273d72e5a35266cb9f77a0236949ed703/0830badbead897b6d22628660a666074.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You may consider resolving your victim complex in regard to internet forums. It would allow you to benefit from discussions on topics more complex than how to balance a videogame.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you for gracing me with your presence Captain Radix. It is an honor.
<!--quoteo(post=1691686:date=Oct 29 2008, 04:16 AM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SentrySteve @ Oct 29 2008, 04:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1691686"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In your original post you quoted Flay saying how Comms can still be effective with a poor team through builder bots and spell like abilities. You're hoping that he can elaborate to tell you that a great commander can win the game by himself even if his marines are crap. I doubt he's going to tell you that, and I don't think many of the posters here want to hear him say that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm hoping for Charlie to say <i>anything at all</i> about the topic, and I'm sure everybody here is interested, for better or for worse.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I could probably find the quotes if I really cared enough, but Flay's said a couple times that he doesn't want the commander to have access to direct damage type spells. I believe the quote was something along the lines of "it wouldn't be fun for aliens to keep dying to the commander and have the feeling that there's nothing they can do about it, since the comm is in the chair." Assuming I'm correct, this would probably negate the comm's ability to win largely in part by their own power.
They may add combat AI, like mobile sentries, since at least the aliens would have something to attack in the physical world and dying randomly out of thin air (like they would be with direct damage spells). If they do add that AI I would expect it to suck. I would expect it to have horrible pathfinding, buggy movements, and mediocre aim.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why do NPC units have to have buggy movement, terrible pathfinding and mediocre aim? NPC units should have 100% aim, but should deal less damage to compensate. They should have proper movement and good pathfinding, two things which aren't impossible to code. If the dev team is going to add any form of NPC units into the game, they better do it right.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Making the commander something more than a baby sitter and adding depth is an incredibly difficult task. If I were designed my own NS-like video game, defining what the commander should do would be the single hardest thing. In NS1 the commander often got in the way of the team by failing to drop weapons / upgrades / whatever. Adding more support spells to the role may give it that same feeling, adding direct damage spells seems to be out of the question, and adding AI seems to be incredibly difficult for <b>a lot of different reasons.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Such as?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And many people are against the idea of having teamwork not be required.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That doesn't make any sense though. Like you said, teamwork is out, right? So why force it?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your topic is about three things A.) asking the devs to elaborate on a quote(10% of discussion) B.) The idea of player sufficiency vs. required teamwork (90% of discussion) C.) An AI turret and some various other I&S suggestions (0% discussion so far).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A. is the point of this thread, everything else is just a sidetracked discussion more or less.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Here's why I said co-operative is in and teamwork is out. The distinction is short term versus long term objectives. In TF2, if a medic ubers heavy a to kill someone or destroy something, that's a short term objective and co-operative play. If a medic uber's a heavy to rush past the enemy team to the last cap point while the rest of the team pushes, that's teamwork. TF2 has a lot of cooperative play, but not a lot of teamwork. NS1 is pretty much the opposite of TF2 in that respect and that is one of the reasons I like NS1 better than TF2.
I still have fun playing TF2 and I still think NS2 will be a good game, but this is an area where I think the baby is being thrown out with the bathwater.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you let people cooperate to gain a small advantage, e.g. welding/humping your teammates. And then also let them do strategic stuff without actually requiring it, that would be the win.
Because they always have in the past? Even most dedicated RTS games have annoying pathfinding. NPC units should have 100% aim, I agree, but just like the turrets in NS1 it will probably be possible to exploit them so the turrets can miss.
The devs are adding NPC units into the game, which is something I'm very skeptical about. I have yet to see a smooth integration of player controlled AI alongside human players. Hell, even having responsive, smart, and smooth player controlled AI (a traditional RTS for example) isn't always expected.
When you are stuck in traffic, your car is subordinate to the car in front of you. No matter how skilled a driver you are, it doesn't matter.
Similarly in NS, you can be the best player in the world (next to Fairy) and still have your team lose due to a lack of other people doing their job.
The devs are adding NPC units into the game, which is something I'm very skeptical about. I have yet to see a smooth integration of player controlled AI alongside human players. Hell, even having responsive, smart, and smooth player controlled AI (a traditional RTS for example) isn't always expected.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unit pathfinding in C&C3 was very good as long as you didn't have millions of tanks. If maps aren't too complicated in NS, it can be done perfectly.
<!--quoteo(post=1691857:date=Oct 30 2008, 10:28 PM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Oct 30 2008, 10:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1691857"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're not getting what I mean when I say subordinate.
When you are stuck in traffic, your car is subordinate to the car in front of you. No matter how skilled a driver you are, it doesn't matter.
Similarly in NS, you can be the best player in the world (next to Fairy) and still have your team lose due to a lack of other people doing their job.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are absolutely wrong. I've seen a screenshot of enigma go 100-0 as a 0 chamber, 1 hive fade and win the game <u>completely</u> by himself in a pub. Also, all it takes is one marine player who outskills the other team 20:1 and you have the game won. You can completely ignore everyone else on your team. Just drop him ammo and medpacks. (a kindergartner can drop ammo and medpacks)
I guess the pathfinding was good, but the rest of the AI doesn't feel that good. At least I feel anything apart from the very basic pathfinding goes wrong in 95% of the cases.
Of course navigating on an actual 3D multi layer environment a lot more complex than the open C&C map navigation, not to speak of reacting to the human player movements.