As much as I like slick graphics, I find they can detract from gameplay - how many people tried TeamFortress2 and found it too "cartoony" for example - I have trouble seeing where the opponent is in an environment like TF2, and much prefer the original HL TFC (when I can tear myself away from NS).
I'd prefer to see the enemy in a sparse environment, rather than have them lost in a caucophany of colour and photorealistic eyecandy (damn, who swallowed the dictionary) - which doesn't preclude them hiding and pouncing when you least expect it.
I've been playing NS since it was first released (fond memories of the awe I felt in seeing the size and design of the maps), and it's the only game where I can still sh*t myself (figuratively speaking) when ambushed, despite all those years of playing :-)
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1690871:date=Oct 20 2008, 05:54 PM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Oct 20 2008, 05:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1690871"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hacking is all about fame and glory, so this would depend on how difficult it is to crack and how popular the engine/game is. If NS2 is still niche then it won't be as much of a target for hackers, but it is something to consider.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Security through obscurity.....
I'd think it logically comes down to how 'agile' UWE try to be in reacting to exploits. There's always going to be a few, it's how quickly they shut them down & patch it up. Once again, why I'd be interested in proper Steam integration.
I'm really impressed with what you are all doing to the mod. You are really putting in the effort for graphics. Try putting the same effort into gameplay!
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1690941:date=Oct 21 2008, 03:55 AM:name=Mapster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mapster @ Oct 21 2008, 03:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1690941"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm really impressed with what you are all doing to the mod. You are really putting in the effort for graphics. Try putting the same effort into gameplay!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Haha what? Mobile sieges, weldbots, kharaa commander, marine weapon loadout, etc don't count as gameplay now?
low hardware requirements makes more people able to play it but less people want to play it. remember NS1 is free but hardly anyone plays it because it's so low tech.
<!--quoteo(post=1690951:date=Oct 21 2008, 06:17 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Oct 21 2008, 06:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1690951"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Haha what? Mobile sieges, weldbots, kharaa commander, marine weapon loadout, etc don't count as gameplay now?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hehe, Local, he is just thinking linearly when they are developing it by a process they gave us the name to that means "doing it all together at the same time", If I Recall Correctly. Must be a hard concept to grasp, having a development cycle that is more synergistic and dynamic than what has happened in the past. Flayra was beating his head against the wall on gameplay in LUA, Max on engine, and Matt(?)/Cory on art assets in that office they put together, right?
<!--quoteo(post=1690955:date=Oct 21 2008, 02:01 PM:name=ViPr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ViPr @ Oct 21 2008, 02:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1690955"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->low hardware requirements makes more people able to play it but less people want to play it. remember NS1 is free but hardly anyone plays it because it's so low tech.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the reason why NS is hardly played is not the tech, its the immense learning curve and that you need HL1 to play it, i have many friends who dont have it, and people who just dont want to buy it becouse its so old and not sold in retail shops.
<!--quoteo(post=1690871:date=Oct 20 2008, 05:54 PM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Oct 20 2008, 05:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1690871"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think generally punishing users who use hacks is a better form of anti-cheat than trying to make your product cheat-proof (a virtual impossibility).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Case in point, yesterday I saw a TF2 hacker doing 100% crits and spamming achievement unlock messages (plus the claxon sound). But with his Steam ID at least he was banned from that server within 24 hours. A much quicker fix than waiting for devs to counter the hack itself.
<!--quoteo(post=1690941:date=Oct 21 2008, 07:55 AM:name=Mapster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mapster @ Oct 21 2008, 07:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1690941"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm really impressed with what you are all doing to the mod. You are really putting in the effort for graphics. Try putting the same effort into gameplay!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lol, "mod". NS2 isn't a mod any more Mapster! It has 'Evolved' into its own game... (Ha! I crack myself up with my own puns) <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nerd-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::nerdy::" border="0" alt="nerd-fix.gif" />
Seriously though, a 'mod' refers to a modification of an existing game, a la CS or NS1. NS2 however is built on its own engine now (the "Evolution" engine if you didn't catch my nerdy pun).
Speaking of Evolution, I think it'd be great if the engine took after its name and maintained a state of Evolution, continual upgrades so to speak. You could have optional improvements in graphics with the core NS code remaining usable on all platforms but with the player choosing to use version 1 classic, 2 (now with Bounce Lighting!), 3 (now with player shadows), etc. The downside being of course that an engine is a hefty piece of software that can weigh in at 100MB or more and if you wanted the upgrade you'd have to download said file and the developers would have to find some incentive to make said upgrades ($5 per engine upgrade?) Just some theories. It seems odd that EA makes stupid games like NFL/UT 2k7, 2k8, 2k9 so on when the basic gameplay is nearly identical except for the visuals and the player stats. Why not just upgrade the engine and maintain a playable code over top of it? I'm sure there are technical aspects but I would think there could be a way to work around it.
It makes sense with idea of leasing out the engine too. That way NS2 could release and the developers could implement bounce lighting and other nifty features afterwards. Investors would see a sooner return on their money, players could get a game quicker, and a paid upgrade path would be built into the game structure already.
Just my 2cents, I realize the idea is probably impractical and/or impossible.
hookeyedJoin Date: 2007-08-26Member: 62011Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1690955:date=Oct 21 2008, 08:31 AM:name=ViPr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ViPr @ Oct 21 2008, 08:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1690955"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->low hardware requirements makes more people able to play it but less people want to play it. remember NS1 is free but hardly anyone plays it because it's so low tech.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> For games on the goldsrc engine it's pretty damn popular, considering it composes the entire community base. Unless you're here for the sudoku. Most people are interested in the unique gameplay and ominous environments.
<!--quoteo(post=1690794:date=Oct 19 2008, 08:15 AM:name=sherpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(sherpa @ Oct 19 2008, 08:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1690794"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I still think developing their own engine is a huge risk with a lot of question marks (one example: if tried and tested developers make an engine that gets hacked with aimbots etc would a new engine from an untried team* make the risk of hacking greater or lower?)
The video UWE made looks good- the dynamic lighting is really impressive, but as a competitive player** all I care about is that the engine 'feels right' and the netcode is great.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Despite the cons of it taking more time to develop, I'd be willing to bet that the "Evolution" engine will be far more stable and more well designed than an engine like "Source". When designing any software project by yourself, its good to get feedback, but at the same time its very good to have developed the whole thing yourself, if possible. Max is a very smart guy who has experience making these kind of things, and he'll be able to improve this engine based on what he learned from his past experiences. Plus, he has a talented game developer and programmer named Flayra to bounce ideas off of. Considering the shape that the engine and toolset are in right now, we should consider ourselves very lucky. They have a lot of work left to do, but there is a lot of work already done it appears.
<!--quoteo(post=1690894:date=Oct 20 2008, 03:05 PM:name=KungFuDiscoMonkey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KungFuDiscoMonkey @ Oct 20 2008, 03:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1690894"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If it's dynamic lighting, it would probably need the model to properly show where the shadow should be cast.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not true, remember that each person renders the scene on their own computer - even though on your computer a model doesn't show up for your character, on every other player's computer they will have a model representation of your character on screen, and the proper shadowing will be rendered for that model.
<!--quoteo(post=1690941:date=Oct 21 2008, 02:55 AM:name=Mapster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mapster @ Oct 21 2008, 02:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1690941"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm really impressed with what you are all doing to the mod. You are really putting in the effort for graphics. Try putting the same effort into gameplay!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> In Flayra we trust <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> Considering his amazing work on NS1, and considering he likely learned a lot from the experience, NS2 will no doubt be fantastic from a gameplay perspective.
<!--quoteo(post=1691088:date=Oct 22 2008, 12:14 PM:name=Thuro)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Thuro @ Oct 22 2008, 12:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1691088"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lol, "mod". NS2 isn't a mod any more Mapster! It has 'Evolved' into its own game... (Ha! I crack myself up with my own puns) <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nerd-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::nerdy::" border="0" alt="nerd-fix.gif" />
Seriously though, a 'mod' refers to a modification of an existing game, a la CS or NS1. NS2 however is built on its own engine now (the "Evolution" engine if you didn't catch my nerdy pun).
Speaking of Evolution, I think it'd be great if the engine took after its name and maintained a state of Evolution, continual upgrades so to speak. You could have optional improvements in graphics with the core NS code remaining usable on all platforms but with the player choosing to use version 1 classic, 2 (now with Bounce Lighting!), 3 (now with player shadows), etc. The downside being of course that an engine is a hefty piece of software that can weigh in at 100MB or more and if you wanted the upgrade you'd have to download said file and the developers would have to find some incentive to make said upgrades ($5 per engine upgrade?) Just some theories. It seems odd that EA makes stupid games like NFL/UT 2k7, 2k8, 2k9 so on when the basic gameplay is nearly identical except for the visuals and the player stats. Why not just upgrade the engine and maintain a playable code over top of it? I'm sure there are technical aspects but I would think there could be a way to work around it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is actually exactly how the "Source" engine works, and you can read about it <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_engine#Modularity" target="_blank">here</a>. They have released a few lighting modules for it thus far - the HDR (high dynamic range) lighting was actually a module they included, although level designers had to implement it in their level for it to be used in game. Although in theory you could add in HDR in the HL2 original maps very easily, just by updating the levels themselves (rather than the engine). Modularity is actually not a new concept when it comes to game engines, really. Oh, and "Source" sucks because you HAVE to code all game logic in C++ <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
I'm really excited right now. Max, awesome work. I love how the dynamic lighting looks - you guys really have a good direction with the art in general in this game. I can't wait to see what Flayra has been cooking up behind the scenes, and I know it will be good.
<!--quoteo(post=1691161:date=Oct 23 2008, 08:27 AM:name=Phlash)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Phlash @ Oct 23 2008, 08:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1691161"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh, and "Source" sucks because you HAVE to code all game logic in C++ <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No you don't, you could embed any interpreter that you like and use that for game logic. See Gary's Mod, for example, which uses Lua to allow people to modify game logic.
Okay, so doing that requires C++ but depending how deeply you embedded it, anything after than can be Lua. Having a native C/C++ interface is just the most efficient (while still being convenient) way of doing things. At that point, people can pick their scripting language of choice to embed. Otherwise you'd get people saying "you HAVE to code all game logic in Lua", when someone might want to use Python, for example.
<!--quoteo(post=1691223:date=Oct 23 2008, 01:12 PM:name=Argh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Argh @ Oct 23 2008, 01:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1691223"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No you don't, you could embed any interpreter that you like and use that for game logic. See Gary's Mod, for example, which uses Lua to allow people to modify game logic.
Okay, so doing that requires C++ but depending how deeply you embedded it, anything after than can be Lua. Having a native C/C++ interface is just the most efficient (while still being convenient) way of doing things. At that point, people can pick their scripting language of choice to embed. Otherwise you'd get people saying "you HAVE to code all game logic in Lua", when someone might want to use Python, for example.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No one who has ever had to write game logic in both Lua and C++ has ever complained about scripting in Lua. Yeah, Gary's Mod implemented it on top of the Source engine, but if you're using Gary's Mod to write game's you end up writing mods for Gary's Mod, not Source. <b>You're</b> the one who is wrong, as Source does NOT support Lua out of the box, and you have to implement the Lua VM into the engine yourself. A good engine, like the Unreal Engine (which uses UnrealScript) or the Crytek 2 Engine (which uses Lua) will have first class out-of-the-box support for a more abstract programming language than C++. I applaud Max and Flayra for going with Lua, as I know it will pay dividends in the future. I'm actually in the process of writing a 2D platforming game engine in Flash CS4, and I've been researching for some nifty ways of implementing a Lua interpreter in it for scripting of the game characters, as I know how much time it will save me. I can admit firsthand that its must nicer to use a language with a clean syntax like a Lua or Python to scripting all of your game logic.
You know, a Python interpreter would be pretty nice for NS2 <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> I can only dream, though.
I don't really agree with what many are posting here about requiring such-and-such features like bounce lighting to the engine ... I mean that video looked very GOOD. It may not have been photorealism, but that's not the style of NS anyway. And I didn't think the shadows were too sharp or anything either.
And besides... the mapper will have freedom to create some great artistic stuff and we wont have to rely on bounce lighting and "realistic" placement of "real" light sources ingame to get stuff done.
That all being said, I guess you gotta make the player create shadows ... for both gameplay and immersion reasons. It's the curse of upping realism in games... skip one thing and that one thing will stand out like a kangaroo in a flock of sheep.
Making the player able to see his/her own body is pretty optional tho, I suppose.
Anyway keep up the good work, I look forward to hearing about the new gameplay...
...I'm especially hoping for a removal of unlimited comm medspam and lerk gas ... those two combined could ruin the morale of a rine team FAST ... and besides it just isn't right to let a lerk remain in the distance, whittling the rine team down with gas, even tho they're chasing it.
All the discussion of the player seeing his body and whether it would cast a shadow interested me.
If as a marine my model was visible it would definitely cause an immersion factor. A skulk biting on my my foot would literally be biting on my foot.
I found this to be true in the game referenced Might & Magic which involved melee combat fabulously.
It does add more complexity to rendering the Kharrah for the humans I think they usually render the body without the head.
Anyways to sum up I think it would be a neat feature, but certainly not a deal breaker.
Kudos on the new song-and-dance (demo) with techtalk followup (Max's follow format you guys have seemed to fallen into. Keep plugging guys I think you show alot of promise in the steps you are taking.
<!--quoteo(post=1691468:date=Oct 26 2008, 01:38 PM:name=kingmob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kingmob @ Oct 26 2008, 01:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1691468"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All the discussion of the player seeing his body and whether it would cast a shadow interested me.
If as a marine my model was visible it would definitely cause an immersion factor. A skulk biting on my my foot would literally be biting on my foot.
I found this to be true in the game referenced Might & Magic which involved melee combat fabulously.
It does add more complexity to rendering the Kharrah for the humans I think they usually render the body without the head.
Anyways to sum up I think it would be a neat feature, but certainly not a deal breaker. Kudos on the new song-and-dance (demo) with techtalk followup (Max's follow format you guys have seemed to fallen into. Keep plugging guys I think you show alot of promise in the steps you are taking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is true. It would look really cool to have a skulk munching on your leg <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1690543:date=Oct 16 2008, 11:27 AM:name=Max)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Max @ Oct 16 2008, 11:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1690543"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The image is rendered using <a href="http://graphics.uni-ulm.de/Instant.pdf" target="_blank">instant radiosity</a> with either one or two bounces (I can't remember which). The nice thing about this technique is that unlike lightmaps, you can include view-dependent effects like the specular reflection from the bounce light. It's not as obvious from the static image, but it looks great in motion. I created a modified version of the instant radiosity algorithm which makes it more amenable to the kinds of frame rates and hardware that current games are targeting. I think within the next few years this type of technique will become very popular for games.
Regarding the albedo, I loaded up one of our refinery textures and the average albedo is 0.2. If you have a light with intensity 1 and it hits a surface with reflectance 0.2, the maximum reflected light from that surface is 0.2. If it than hits another surface with reflectance of 0.2, the light that will enter the lens/eye now has a maximum intensity of 0.04. And most of the light isn't anywhere near the maximum due to attenuation of distance and angle. If we had Star Trek-like environments with lots of white walls and bright lights then the bounce light is important, but in our current environments it just doesn't seem to be much of a factor.
We aren't using stencil shadow volumes like Doom 3. I don't think any current engine uses that technique anymore (including id Tech 5). Shadow maps are easier to optimize, scale and look nicer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Two years out of school and my graphics knowledge is already all out of date. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> Such is life I guess. Thanks for the links!
Comments
I'd prefer to see the enemy in a sparse environment, rather than have them lost in a caucophany of colour and photorealistic eyecandy (damn, who swallowed the dictionary) - which doesn't preclude them hiding and pouncing when you least expect it.
I've been playing NS since it was first released (fond memories of the awe I felt in seeing the size and design of the maps), and it's the only game where I can still sh*t myself (figuratively speaking) when ambushed, despite all those years of playing :-)
Security through obscurity.....
I'd think it logically comes down to how 'agile' UWE try to be in reacting to exploits. There's always going to be a few, it's how quickly they shut them down & patch it up. Once again, why I'd be interested in proper Steam integration.
Try putting the same effort into gameplay!
Try putting the same effort into gameplay!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Haha what? Mobile sieges, weldbots, kharaa commander, marine weapon loadout, etc don't count as gameplay now?
Hehe, Local, he is just thinking linearly when they are developing it by a process they gave us the name to that means "doing it all together at the same time", If I Recall Correctly. Must be a hard concept to grasp, having a development cycle that is more synergistic and dynamic than what has happened in the past. Flayra was beating his head against the wall on gameplay in LUA, Max on engine, and Matt(?)/Cory on art assets in that office they put together, right?
the reason why NS is hardly played is not the tech, its the immense learning curve and that you need HL1 to play it, i have many friends who dont have it, and people who just dont want to buy it becouse its so old and not sold in retail shops.
Try putting the same effort into gameplay!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lol, "mod". NS2 isn't a mod any more Mapster! It has 'Evolved' into its own game... (Ha! I crack myself up with my own puns) <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nerd-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::nerdy::" border="0" alt="nerd-fix.gif" />
Seriously though, a 'mod' refers to a modification of an existing game, a la CS or NS1. NS2 however is built on its own engine now (the "Evolution" engine if you didn't catch my nerdy pun).
Speaking of Evolution, I think it'd be great if the engine took after its name and maintained a state of Evolution, continual upgrades so to speak. You could have optional improvements in graphics with the core NS code remaining usable on all platforms but with the player choosing to use version 1 classic, 2 (now with Bounce Lighting!), 3 (now with player shadows), etc. The downside being of course that an engine is a hefty piece of software that can weigh in at 100MB or more and if you wanted the upgrade you'd have to download said file and the developers would have to find some incentive to make said upgrades ($5 per engine upgrade?) Just some theories. It seems odd that EA makes stupid games like NFL/UT 2k7, 2k8, 2k9 so on when the basic gameplay is nearly identical except for the visuals and the player stats. Why not just upgrade the engine and maintain a playable code over top of it? I'm sure there are technical aspects but I would think there could be a way to work around it.
It makes sense with idea of leasing out the engine too. That way NS2 could release and the developers could implement bounce lighting and other nifty features afterwards. Investors would see a sooner return on their money, players could get a game quicker, and a paid upgrade path would be built into the game structure already.
Just my 2cents, I realize the idea is probably impractical and/or impossible.
For games on the goldsrc engine it's pretty damn popular, considering it composes the entire community base. Unless you're here for the sudoku.
Most people are interested in the unique gameplay and ominous environments.
The video UWE made looks good- the dynamic lighting is really impressive, but as a competitive player** all I care about is that the engine 'feels right' and the netcode is great.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Despite the cons of it taking more time to develop, I'd be willing to bet that the "Evolution" engine will be far more stable and more well designed than an engine like "Source". When designing any software project by yourself, its good to get feedback, but at the same time its very good to have developed the whole thing yourself, if possible. Max is a very smart guy who has experience making these kind of things, and he'll be able to improve this engine based on what he learned from his past experiences. Plus, he has a talented game developer and programmer named Flayra to bounce ideas off of. Considering the shape that the engine and toolset are in right now, we should consider ourselves very lucky. They have a lot of work left to do, but there is a lot of work already done it appears.
<!--quoteo(post=1690894:date=Oct 20 2008, 03:05 PM:name=KungFuDiscoMonkey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KungFuDiscoMonkey @ Oct 20 2008, 03:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1690894"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If it's dynamic lighting, it would probably need the model to properly show where the shadow should be cast.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not true, remember that each person renders the scene on their own computer - even though on your computer a model doesn't show up for your character, on every other player's computer they will have a model representation of your character on screen, and the proper shadowing will be rendered for that model.
<!--quoteo(post=1690941:date=Oct 21 2008, 02:55 AM:name=Mapster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mapster @ Oct 21 2008, 02:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1690941"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm really impressed with what you are all doing to the mod. You are really putting in the effort for graphics.
Try putting the same effort into gameplay!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In Flayra we trust <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> Considering his amazing work on NS1, and considering he likely learned a lot from the experience, NS2 will no doubt be fantastic from a gameplay perspective.
<!--quoteo(post=1691088:date=Oct 22 2008, 12:14 PM:name=Thuro)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Thuro @ Oct 22 2008, 12:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1691088"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lol, "mod". NS2 isn't a mod any more Mapster! It has 'Evolved' into its own game... (Ha! I crack myself up with my own puns) <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nerd-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::nerdy::" border="0" alt="nerd-fix.gif" />
Seriously though, a 'mod' refers to a modification of an existing game, a la CS or NS1. NS2 however is built on its own engine now (the "Evolution" engine if you didn't catch my nerdy pun).
Speaking of Evolution, I think it'd be great if the engine took after its name and maintained a state of Evolution, continual upgrades so to speak. You could have optional improvements in graphics with the core NS code remaining usable on all platforms but with the player choosing to use version 1 classic, 2 (now with Bounce Lighting!), 3 (now with player shadows), etc. The downside being of course that an engine is a hefty piece of software that can weigh in at 100MB or more and if you wanted the upgrade you'd have to download said file and the developers would have to find some incentive to make said upgrades ($5 per engine upgrade?) Just some theories. It seems odd that EA makes stupid games like NFL/UT 2k7, 2k8, 2k9 so on when the basic gameplay is nearly identical except for the visuals and the player stats. Why not just upgrade the engine and maintain a playable code over top of it? I'm sure there are technical aspects but I would think there could be a way to work around it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is actually exactly how the "Source" engine works, and you can read about it <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_engine#Modularity" target="_blank">here</a>. They have released a few lighting modules for it thus far - the HDR (high dynamic range) lighting was actually a module they included, although level designers had to implement it in their level for it to be used in game. Although in theory you could add in HDR in the HL2 original maps very easily, just by updating the levels themselves (rather than the engine). Modularity is actually not a new concept when it comes to game engines, really. Oh, and "Source" sucks because you HAVE to code all game logic in C++ <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
I'm really excited right now. Max, awesome work. I love how the dynamic lighting looks - you guys really have a good direction with the art in general in this game. I can't wait to see what Flayra has been cooking up behind the scenes, and I know it will be good.
No you don't, you could embed any interpreter that you like and use that for game logic. See Gary's Mod, for example, which uses Lua to allow people to modify game logic.
Okay, so doing that requires C++ but depending how deeply you embedded it, anything after than can be Lua. Having a native C/C++ interface is just the most efficient (while still being convenient) way of doing things. At that point, people can pick their scripting language of choice to embed. Otherwise you'd get people saying "you HAVE to code all game logic in Lua", when someone might want to use Python, for example.
Okay, so doing that requires C++ but depending how deeply you embedded it, anything after than can be Lua. Having a native C/C++ interface is just the most efficient (while still being convenient) way of doing things. At that point, people can pick their scripting language of choice to embed. Otherwise you'd get people saying "you HAVE to code all game logic in Lua", when someone might want to use Python, for example.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No one who has ever had to write game logic in both Lua and C++ has ever complained about scripting in Lua. Yeah, Gary's Mod implemented it on top of the Source engine, but if you're using Gary's Mod to write game's you end up writing mods for Gary's Mod, not Source. <b>You're</b> the one who is wrong, as Source does NOT support Lua out of the box, and you have to implement the Lua VM into the engine yourself. A good engine, like the Unreal Engine (which uses UnrealScript) or the Crytek 2 Engine (which uses Lua) will have first class out-of-the-box support for a more abstract programming language than C++. I applaud Max and Flayra for going with Lua, as I know it will pay dividends in the future. I'm actually in the process of writing a 2D platforming game engine in Flash CS4, and I've been researching for some nifty ways of implementing a Lua interpreter in it for scripting of the game characters, as I know how much time it will save me. I can admit firsthand that its must nicer to use a language with a clean syntax like a Lua or Python to scripting all of your game logic.
You know, a Python interpreter would be pretty nice for NS2 <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> I can only dream, though.
I don't really agree with what many are posting here about requiring such-and-such features like bounce lighting to the engine ... I mean that video looked very GOOD. It may not have been photorealism, but that's not the style of NS anyway. And I didn't think the shadows were too sharp or anything either.
And besides... the mapper will have freedom to create some great artistic stuff and we wont have to rely on bounce lighting and "realistic" placement of "real" light sources ingame to get stuff done.
That all being said, I guess you gotta make the player create shadows ... for both gameplay and immersion reasons. It's the curse of upping realism in games... skip one thing and that one thing will stand out like a kangaroo in a flock of sheep.
Making the player able to see his/her own body is pretty optional tho, I suppose.
Anyway keep up the good work, I look forward to hearing about the new gameplay...
...I'm especially hoping for a removal of unlimited comm medspam and lerk gas ... those two combined could ruin the morale of a rine team FAST ... and besides it just isn't right to let a lerk remain in the distance, whittling the rine team down with gas, even tho they're chasing it.
If as a marine my model was visible it would definitely cause an immersion factor.
A skulk biting on my my foot would literally be biting on my foot.
I found this to be true in the game referenced Might & Magic which involved melee combat fabulously.
It does add more complexity to rendering the Kharrah for the humans I think they usually render the body without the head.
Anyways to sum up I think it would be a neat feature, but certainly not a deal breaker.
Kudos on the new song-and-dance (demo) with techtalk followup (Max's follow format you guys have seemed to fallen into.
Keep plugging guys I think you show alot of promise in the steps you are taking.
If as a marine my model was visible it would definitely cause an immersion factor.
A skulk biting on my my foot would literally be biting on my foot.
I found this to be true in the game referenced Might & Magic which involved melee combat fabulously.
It does add more complexity to rendering the Kharrah for the humans I think they usually render the body without the head.
Anyways to sum up I think it would be a neat feature, but certainly not a deal breaker.
Kudos on the new song-and-dance (demo) with techtalk followup (Max's follow format you guys have seemed to fallen into.
Keep plugging guys I think you show alot of promise in the steps you are taking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is true. It would look really cool to have a skulk munching on your leg <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Regarding the albedo, I loaded up one of our refinery textures and the average albedo is 0.2. If you have a light with intensity 1 and it hits a surface with reflectance 0.2, the maximum reflected light from that surface is 0.2. If it than hits another surface with reflectance of 0.2, the light that will enter the lens/eye now has a maximum intensity of 0.04. And most of the light isn't anywhere near the maximum due to attenuation of distance and angle. If we had Star Trek-like environments with lots of white walls and bright lights then the bounce light is important, but in our current environments it just doesn't seem to be much of a factor.
We aren't using stencil shadow volumes like Doom 3. I don't think any current engine uses that technique anymore (including id Tech 5). Shadow maps are easier to optimize, scale and look nicer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Two years out of school and my graphics knowledge is already all out of date. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> Such is life I guess. Thanks for the links!