Squad Momentum
t0x1kw4st3
Join Date: 2008-04-27 Member: 64167Members
Join Date: 2008-04-27 Member: 64167Members
<div class="IPBDescription">(+ micro influence)</div>So, because a commander microing his marines in NS is more like a leaping prayer of hope, there should be incentive for marines to follow orders (and promptly).
So, this system I title "Momentum" promotes marines to follow orders by giving incentives to the good marines.
This system promotes following the commander's orders by giving benefits to the marines who do. This can be improved upon by creating a "combo-waypoint" system, where if marines follow orders directly the benefits of following one order sticks into the next waypoint (if they accomplish it in a given amount of time). So, the commander would have to plan his waypoints carefully and decisively and boldly. This creates "momentum".
Here is an example of combo-waypoints.
<img src="http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z178/iruyun/comboexample.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
The effects from completing the Move Order sticks with the player as long as they jump on their orders like hotcakes. (7s denotes 7seconds before the combo is broken.)
The "Buckle Down" order is basically a hold position order / defend this area order. If a marine exits the Buckle Down area after entering, the entire squad would lose all their bonuses (or the individual marine). It would promote the Commander Planning his moves in advance, and therefore illuminate his "strategy". The commander could put four strategic moves in front of his marines from the get-go, or put them in their way gradually (before the first marine completes the first goal). If he cancels his strategy while the marines are on route, all bonuses are lost. The mechanics are there.
A possible pool of strategic movements and their benefits include:
move (+speed)
buckle down (+ temporary armor)
attack (+ damage, or, fire rate)
so, the commander could do a move order that turns into an attack order. The effects of the move order (+speed, 10 second duration) would stick with the marine if they accomplished the attack order in good time. This would also promote placing more orders close to the original order (because of the duration of the effect). So, 10 second speed increase means the attack order has to be close to the movement order. Inside the "attack order" radius, all marines who fire their weapons gain damage or accuracy, while also moving at a 10% speed increase. Then, once they leave the attack order radius, the ticker for the next waypoint begins (and if they don't get there in time, the previous effects cancel, and the combo starts fresh.)
So, a good marine will usually be comboed out the entire game, following orders to the tee. He would have +speed,damage,rate of fire, and other bonuses. So, the effects will be applied on a per-marine basis. But, to gain maximum effect, the marines have to work as a team.
<img src="http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z178/iruyun/example2.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
So, this system I title "Momentum" promotes marines to follow orders by giving incentives to the good marines.
This system promotes following the commander's orders by giving benefits to the marines who do. This can be improved upon by creating a "combo-waypoint" system, where if marines follow orders directly the benefits of following one order sticks into the next waypoint (if they accomplish it in a given amount of time). So, the commander would have to plan his waypoints carefully and decisively and boldly. This creates "momentum".
Here is an example of combo-waypoints.
<img src="http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z178/iruyun/comboexample.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
The effects from completing the Move Order sticks with the player as long as they jump on their orders like hotcakes. (7s denotes 7seconds before the combo is broken.)
The "Buckle Down" order is basically a hold position order / defend this area order. If a marine exits the Buckle Down area after entering, the entire squad would lose all their bonuses (or the individual marine). It would promote the Commander Planning his moves in advance, and therefore illuminate his "strategy". The commander could put four strategic moves in front of his marines from the get-go, or put them in their way gradually (before the first marine completes the first goal). If he cancels his strategy while the marines are on route, all bonuses are lost. The mechanics are there.
A possible pool of strategic movements and their benefits include:
move (+speed)
buckle down (+ temporary armor)
attack (+ damage, or, fire rate)
so, the commander could do a move order that turns into an attack order. The effects of the move order (+speed, 10 second duration) would stick with the marine if they accomplished the attack order in good time. This would also promote placing more orders close to the original order (because of the duration of the effect). So, 10 second speed increase means the attack order has to be close to the movement order. Inside the "attack order" radius, all marines who fire their weapons gain damage or accuracy, while also moving at a 10% speed increase. Then, once they leave the attack order radius, the ticker for the next waypoint begins (and if they don't get there in time, the previous effects cancel, and the combo starts fresh.)
So, a good marine will usually be comboed out the entire game, following orders to the tee. He would have +speed,damage,rate of fire, and other bonuses. So, the effects will be applied on a per-marine basis. But, to gain maximum effect, the marines have to work as a team.
<img src="http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z178/iruyun/example2.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Comments
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At first blush I like this idea. It helps give incentive to not only organize the team with waypoints but also for the players to follow those waypoints.
I don't like the implementation making it very squad dependent. It would be stronger if it was per player, but waypoints could be assigned to a group / squad of players. Or, if you want to fortify quad movement, the squad leader (assuming one is implemented) would gain the bonus, and players nearby would receive them for being in proximity.
My biggest concern in your "combo" system. You imply that each subsequent waypoint will have a shorter time limit to get there. You argue this will give incentive to place waypoints near one another. Also, these bonuses will stack. This, however, leads to waypoint spam simply to give huge buffs, which I hope is not what you're hoping to implement.
Allow me to elaborate. Taking your example, we have the squad move to a waypoint. If I were to then place an attack and buckle down waypoint right next to the move waypoint, the squad would suddenly combo up and have all three upgrades. Taken further, a spam of waypoints all along the path would ensure no combo is ever lost, and the bonuses would continue to stack.
To ensure this doesn't happen, I would advise that these bonuses are binary (you have them or you don't) and that the waypoint regions are required to not overlap, thus forcing the marines to at least move to another location to gain the next bonus.
As far as the specific upgrades, I see very little practicality in the buckle down and the attack waypoints. You indicate that you need to fire a bullet in the attack waypoint to gain the upgrade. However, isn't the purpose of an attack waypoint to give a target to shoot at? If so, then you're not at the waypoint, you're down the hall sniping so the Aliens have to come to you.
Secondly, the buckle down waypoint seems to imply static defending, which means not leaving that region, which mean no more combo. If instead they gained the bonus while staying in the region and a combo could continue when the next waypoint is given, it would be a more robust system. i.e. you give a buckle down waypoint, and while they defend they gain the bonus. However, they get to keep that until you give them their next waypoint (move, defend somewhere else, etc.), at which time the combo timer starts to run down. Probably to cheese the system, the commander would also give an attack and move waypoint on the way to the buckle down waypoint so they can defend with all 3 bonuses on indefinitely.
In closing, it's a good idea in theory. However, the implementation needs some tweaking. I personally would remove the combo idea due to its complications, but some kind of bonus for following waypoints would be beneficial.
There is already a mechanic which generally rewards players who follow orders, only it's not explicit. You can expect more teammates at the commander's waypoint, as well as more attention in the form of medpacks and ammo. The commander has a good sense of the tide of the game, and usually makes good decisions on the long term strategy side of it. Enhancing the marine-on-the-ground's understanding of the commander's strategy would be great, and I like your multiple waypoint idea. Another way to do it, not necessarily mutually exclusive to your idea, is with a virtual path to the waypoint(s) on the ground visible through walls. Much easier to understand than a flickering dot on your screen or having to wrap your head around a 2d top-down map.
However, the micromanagement you argue for is not the way to go. Can you imagine being disadvantaged if you were to refuse to follow a waypoint into a room full of Fades, by yourself? Or if you were on your way but got distracted by a lonely gorge? I would argue the marine is making a good decision in both those cases, so why should they be disadvantaged? The marines on the ground have a much better sense of their surroundings, and the responsibility of navigation. Both which way the player gets to the objective and how long it takes, should be left at the player's discretion. Less personal control means a less interesting experience, not to mention the situation's similarity to work.
What makes this different from starcraft is that the soldiers can think for themselves. To disadvantage those who don't follow orders is to discourage the uniqueness of this game. Besides, if one player fails to meet the 7 second countdown, he's going to get called a newb and vote-kicked out of the game, if only because he went to grab a glass of water and was away from keyboard for 5 seconds. Perhaps that's not correct behavior, but majority of serious players consider anyone who screws up something for others as somene worthy of being kicked from a game with little or no exception.
There is already incentive for doing what you're told anyway. If anything, they should provide a larger vocabulary of orders for the commander to give which include 'bulk down' and 'advance to this position and hold'. The advantage is simply being able to do what the commander sets you out to do. The better commanders will provide their own incentive at this point and provide them with weapons and/or armor for having stuck together.
Issue is that mappers will then have to create a network of "paths" for the engine to use. Not a huge issue since UT3 is doing it, but something to take note of. Not to mention the devs need to figure out a shortest path algorithm on the fly for each map.
I think that if you guys don't like this system, then a more elaborate way for the commander to "show" his tactics to his troops is in order. All he has now is "go to waypoint". Increase the commander's ability to communicate his strategy.
The lone gorge case is too hot to refuse, so, it's understandable the marine would run off.
The five fade room case is just nuts. It's either bad/blind strategy or other. In this case, the marines obviously have to think for themselves and see if maintaining their "momentum" is worth it.
That's why I call it momentum. It can be "cancelled" by Alien activity. The lone gorge is too good to be true - cancels momentum. Five fades in a room - cancel momentum. Momentum can be opposed.
So, the idea is to provide incentive for marines to follow orders. Some marines like to rambo - this doesn't stop them from doing that. They would just be "normal". What this does is put the edge to the squad of marines who work as a team and follow orders. It makes it the forward force. The commander could even micro two forces, or three, with this system (because orders work on a per-marine basis). Plus, giving a system for the commanders micro to actually affect game-stats (speed, for one) could create awesome scenarios for good giving-recieving orders micro to save a lone marine, or, to win a battle that was unwinnable before.
For example, the marine runs at 1x speed normally, which allows them to jump 2 meters. If the commander micros his marines correctly, he increases their speed by 10% and therefore increases their jumping distance by 10% to 2.2 meters. And we'll be damned, because there is exactly a 2.2 meter jump that could save the entire squad only if the commander was paying attention and gave them a move order preceding the jump, therefore increasing their speed:jump capability.
It might not even have to be done with "strategic orders" benefits. Speed packs, ammo packs, health packs, etc can be dropped (at a resource cost). This is how it is right now. To that effect, the commander maintains his army at a resource cost. This would be the free upgrades the commander can give his army (if he is good), saving him resources.
If the future map-layouts had these certain mathematical equations built into their layout (+10% speed = 2.2 meter jumps) then a commander microing his marines would be complimentary and neccesary for map-domination. Literally, the commander would be a required to piece together the map "puzzle" for his marines. If they come to a 2.2 M jump, the commander _has_ to drop a move order or a speed pack for them to jump by. We'd just have to find or create the many relationships in distance and time and stuff like that which can be translated into map design.
It gives the commander some leeway in affecting the real game, where as before, he could only do this by dropping CCs in front of a fleeing onos's path or spamming med packs. Increase the commanders ability to affect gameplay beyond dropping stuff. Do it by how he gives his orders. This way, he can give benefits to his marines for free. If both the com and rine are able to "weave" giving orders and completing orders adaptively, marines would have huge potential for pwnos.
Maybe, you can only have two orders in advance, and can't place any more until they become completed. This would create a system that demands commander control and limits exploitation. (Spamming orders to maintain perfect momentum). Plus, orders can't be placed very close to eachother (to prevent exploitation.)
So, the commander drops 3 move orders first and a build order:
MS (move1) -------> Foreboding Antechamber (move2) ---------> Outside Silo Hive (move3) [net yield = 8% faster move time to hive, faster than the skulks, allowing them to prepare (build PG, or something)]
This would give the marines a 10% increase in speed 3 times (incorporating map distance and marine speed into the strategic equation). This would get them there, 8% faster than normal (or something). Then, factor in skulk movement time and speed, find the difference, and you create room for early-game strategy.
If the comm instead was lazy and did 1 move order, 1 build order, and 1 buckle down order:
MS (move1) ------> Outside Silo Hive (build1) ------> Inside Silo Hive (buckle down) <-> [net yield = marines arrive 2.6% faster to hive, about the same time than the skulks, allowing no preparation (no pg built)]
The difference between these two micro management options is that one is microed better. Three movement orders followed by the Build 1 order and Buckle Down order is much better than Move order Build Order Buckle Down order, because it gets the marines there faster.
Then the marines would get there less quickly because the skulk (takes 8% more time to get there) just arrived. The marines would get slaughtered before they were able to barely finish the PG. This is the kind of thing my system promotes, IF, map dynamics were related (think of 2.2 meter jump). But, if map dynamics are unrelated to commander micro, then might as well ditch the entire idea completely and incorporate speed packs. (+ speed)
I think my ideas are all jumbly, BUT,
you could incorporate commander order-micro into how marines can tackle problems. Say, offense chambers fire their bullets (and ancitipate marine direction). The +10% speed boost could make moving marines "too fast" for OCs to track, and they fire 10% behind the marine with each spike, therefore missing. (It depends on distance, too... if the spike is going at a certain speed). So, if the commander is microing his marines (or drops a speed pack), they can take out a group of OCs much easier than if they weren't being microed or didn't have the speed pack.
then there is , again, the 2.2 meter jump scenario that can only be made with a speed pack, or good commander micro.
There is also the early game strategy involved in speed times and distance (marine/skulk) that could create early-game strategy potential.
Well, it's relative. Either you call it normal and advantaged or disadvantaged and normal, it's the same thing. In a related note, world of warcraft used to label the normal experience rate "50%" and rested "100%", but people got upset and complained. They just changed the labels to "100%" and "200%".
A reward for following the waypoints is nice too, but I think there are less confusing ways of doing that than the constant changes in armor, firepower and movement speed.
Maybe some parts of the system could be implemented if the commander micro isn't intense enough without these, but I'd try adding more commander spell micro and direct support duty before making waypoints the crucial feature.
It is a little complex, to be honest. And a personal rule is that simple is better than complex...
and I say "normal" because it is considered normal from NS1.
BUT, I think designing the maps could be a lot more controlled and pertain to certain standards (for strategic value)...
Include different type of waypoints (attack, defend, etc) and allow them to get queued up. Helps explain better, allows a flow of the plan.
Want a good incentive for marines to follow a way point? I think the best one would be that it provides some sort of force multiplier, something that allows marines to better compliment each others strengths. Thinking back to NS1, the thing that seemed to do that for the marines was the motion tracker - it didn't help them aim better but they were more prepared if even a pair of marines looked in opposite directions and communicated what they saw to each other over voice. To that end, I think some "static" could be added to motion tracking, that the infestation screws things up by making the whole place look like its moving unless the focus of the Commander's intel (way points) where there to clear that static up. Hopefully you could see how such a thing would help with the tense atmosphere as well.
and I say "normal" because it is considered normal from NS1.
BUT, I think designing the maps could be a lot more controlled and pertain to certain standards (for strategic value)...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure I understand what complexity you're referring to.
If you're referring to the commander micro: Basically we could be thinking about the same features here, I'd just like to have them as a commander spell instead of a part in the waypointing system. On the other hand the waypointing system rewards following orders, but on the other hand it removes some flexibility and forces the commander to use the waypoints even if there are more efficent ways of communication to use.
What do you mean by the map designing?
I mean that depending on how the statistics of objects in the game can be manipulated, maps should have features built around these changes of statistics.
FOR EXAMPLE: A lerk can FLY and a skulk can CLIMB WALLS. These are object statistics. This means the lerk can fly freely around the map and a skulk can climb around a map. Maps have features built around the "flying" and "climbing" aspects, such as rooms that can only be accessible to flying/climbing units. As a part of map dynamics, marines can't access these rooms pre-jetpack (unless they do some odd duck/duck/duck maneuver). So, in terms of map dynamics, there is a limiting factor that can be broken.
So, I think implementing limiting-but-breakable factors into map design would be a good idea.
another example from previous posts, to illustrate more: A marine can jump 2 meters. If the commander drops a speed-pack (might not exist), the marine can jump 2.5 meters. A 2.5 meter jump is a limiting factor to a marine (without a speed pack). However, a 2.5 meter jump is no longer a limiting factor because the com dropped him a speed pack, increasing his jumping distance to 2.5. Now, the Marine can safely jump the 2.5 meter chasm to the other side.
The value of being able to jump over the 2.5 meter chasm? There is much strategy. Evasion, rushing. It turns out this corridor was the main corridor between MS & the farthest hive. Circumventing this chasm adds 20 seconds to travel time. Jumping the corridor makes the marines arrive 20seconds faster to the farthest hive. The cost is dropping the appropriate amount of speed packs. So, if Aliens don't expect the shotty rush (because they have the farthest hive), the marines can "sneak" it.
Another use? Escape. There might be a fat onos behind a squad of three marines. The Onos didn't see the com dropped the marines speed packs, and stalks them viciously. The marines jump the chasm, and follows the Onos because he knows he can jump as far as a marine. But, the Onos loses and falls into the chasm ;p
<img src="http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z178/iruyun/mapdyn1-1.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
But, in terms of strategy (which relates to timing), map dynamics (relative to unit stats) could have big potential. In the aforementioned and diagramed case, a little bit of micro by an observant commander could yield a dead onos. OR, it could make those marines invulnerable to Onii (because it can't make the jump). Fades, skulks, lerks, etc are fair game, though. But, dropping 3 speed packs (total: 6 res) could improve the life of the three marines by 10000% percent because the Onos can't make the jump and therefore can't kill the marines. Building a PG in that spot would be pricey useless because it would cost 2 res to transport each marine to make the chasm jump.
When I first read momentum, I was thinking this topic was going to be about something different. Until recently, momentum was a more implicit gameplay feature made up of mostly morale(which I will define as perception of player winning or potential to win) which is directly influenced by the following:<ul>1. Map control, through denying or having the ability to take key areas</li></ul>NS1 has an added layer of momentum with: <ul>2. Resources
3. Spawn times</li></ul>Marines and Kharaa in the field are still mainly concerned with 1 and 3. Specifically in how well they can kill things when holding/taking an area without too many of their own team being killed. Stated another way, morale is directly influenced by Map Control for the FPS players in NS. The commander is more concerned with resources and his morale is directly influenced that way. Of course having resources and tech make map control easier, but the commander doesn't actually defend areas, he just tells his players which areas are important at the moment(usually res nodes under attack).
I'm going to contrast TF2 here because its momentum is explicit also, but based on 3 different things:<ul><li> Forward spawn</li><li> Spawn times</li><li> Critical hit chance(which is a function of player longevity)</li></ul>They make look similar, but the replacement of resources with crits here is key. And not just for the reason that crits are "random". Resources and crits both attempt to alleviate the same problem with momentum, that once it is gathered it is hard to change and this can make for boring games. With resources, the other team has time to respond and change the tide of the game. With crits, a well placed shot will give a player or group a chance to break through even strong offenses and defenses. I think most of the members of this particular forum will agree that resources is the superior method for skill based play. It leads to longer matches, which limits the chances for a game to become "mainstream" and is probably why TF2 opted for the "crit shortcut", but I'm not expecting much dispute about this characterization of crits and the superiority of NS in general <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/asrifle.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::asrifle::" border="0" alt="asrifle.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nerd-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::nerdy::" border="0" alt="nerd-fix.gif" /> .
Also, I think that crits(This is where I tie it back to the OP), because they focus on the short term battle, they fail to avoid the "steamroll" effect. I think the OP would also fall into this trap since marines can effectively "tech up" with neither time nor resources spent.
Promised tl;dr version:
I'm okay with a single small bonus requiring preparation time, but not cumulative bonuses.
What's to stop PUG marines doing the same with this waypoint system?
Perhaps a simpler version would be allowing a commander to drop an "Attack," "Move," or "Defend" beacon. A beacon that gives marines within the radius of the beacon the corresponding buffs. Make these beacons cost res (say, 25 or something) and make them killable in addition to temporary (60 seconds maybe). The buffs leave you if you leave the radius of the beacon, and you can not have more than one beacon out at a time.
It encourages marines to follow orders, can not be abused so easily, and doesn't seem overpowered (to say nothing of the buffs, radius, or health of the beacon).
The concept you offer sounds fun and unique, but is definitely in need of drastic tweaking.