Effective Counters For 'Rine Turtles.
Fraxinus
Join Date: 2008-03-02 Member: 63783Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2008-03-02 Member: 63783Members, Constellation
<b>Introduction</b>
As most people who have played NS know that if marines turtle either a hive or their base or a combination of both the game can be dragged out far longer than it should be. Even when the marines have only 2 nodes on the map, if the turtle is effective enough they can build up enough momentum for them and stagnation for the aliens. Thus, allowing them to push out of their bases or kill all of the aliens higher lifeforms in one fell swoop during a hive drop.
<b>Theory</b>
In some of the podcasts an alien commander has been presented as a possible new addition to the game. My idea is that the aliens could have something similar to the marines seige factories and cannons. A type of hive ability that would use a percentage of all of the lifeforms resources to "nuke" an area. After the area i.e. hive has been "nuked" the aliens can more effectivley snuff out the crippled marine presence in the area.
<b>Reasons for percentage based and team res use.</b>
1.Lets say that this ability would cost 30% of everyones (on the alien team) res (I think a higher number would be appropriate so that this ability wouldn't be abused.).
2.Everone know that this would take 30 res from an alien who has 100 and 3 from an alien who has 10. I think it would be much more manageable than having it require a flat fee of 30 res from everyone because not everyone may have 30 res.
3. Everyone has to agree. This will prevent abuse, also everyone will have to wait untill they have the right amount of res before the hive can strike its target.
Another idea is that the more res the hive collects from the aliens the more powerful the "nuke" will be. For example if everone has 10 res it will be less powerful than if everyone has 100 res. Just like with the marines the more seiges there are the faster the hive goes down.
<b>Possible abuses/exploits:</b>
*aliens "nuke" MS when they all get 30 res in the first couple seconds of the game
I'd like to hear everyone's opinion about this idea. As well as your own proposals.
As most people who have played NS know that if marines turtle either a hive or their base or a combination of both the game can be dragged out far longer than it should be. Even when the marines have only 2 nodes on the map, if the turtle is effective enough they can build up enough momentum for them and stagnation for the aliens. Thus, allowing them to push out of their bases or kill all of the aliens higher lifeforms in one fell swoop during a hive drop.
<b>Theory</b>
In some of the podcasts an alien commander has been presented as a possible new addition to the game. My idea is that the aliens could have something similar to the marines seige factories and cannons. A type of hive ability that would use a percentage of all of the lifeforms resources to "nuke" an area. After the area i.e. hive has been "nuked" the aliens can more effectivley snuff out the crippled marine presence in the area.
<b>Reasons for percentage based and team res use.</b>
1.Lets say that this ability would cost 30% of everyones (on the alien team) res (I think a higher number would be appropriate so that this ability wouldn't be abused.).
2.Everone know that this would take 30 res from an alien who has 100 and 3 from an alien who has 10. I think it would be much more manageable than having it require a flat fee of 30 res from everyone because not everyone may have 30 res.
3. Everyone has to agree. This will prevent abuse, also everyone will have to wait untill they have the right amount of res before the hive can strike its target.
Another idea is that the more res the hive collects from the aliens the more powerful the "nuke" will be. For example if everone has 10 res it will be less powerful than if everyone has 100 res. Just like with the marines the more seiges there are the faster the hive goes down.
<b>Possible abuses/exploits:</b>
*aliens "nuke" MS when they all get 30 res in the first couple seconds of the game
I'd like to hear everyone's opinion about this idea. As well as your own proposals.
Comments
Marine teams who turtle inevitably lose, how long it takes depends on the skill of the alien team. Problem is, most of the time the aliens just dont work cooperatively, and thats why it drags out.
Also, i have been on the marine end of this many times, as last hive holdouts used to be one of my favourite game situations, and some of the crazy comebacks we've pulled off are fantastic.
But yes, aliens can very easily seige a marine fortification and win, with very little effort. Just needs team work.
Just from a logical stance i'm going to say that the development patches implemented to <i>fix</i> things that unknownworlds felt weren't working all along NS1's lifespan disagree with this statement. You don't fix something if it isn't working and if something isn't working there is something wrong with it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marine teams who turtle inevitably lose, how long it takes depends on the skill of the alien team. Problem is, most of the time the aliens just dont work cooperatively, and thats why it drags out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree it goes either way and it seems to me like the aliens require much much more teamwork than the marines to pull off a cohesive attack. Games that drag out get boring and after the 70minute mark I usually end up leaving, also it begins to get demoralizing for the aliens because when marines get fully tech'd we're are only 2/3rd's tech'd.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, i have been on the marine end of this many times, as last hive holdouts used to be one of my favourite game situations, and some of the crazy comebacks we've pulled off are fantastic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have as well and I think that it gets boring after 30+ minutes of jetpacking around a hive. On the alien side it seems to be generally demoralizing and difficult to break a turtle.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But yes, aliens can very easily seige a marine fortification and win, with very little effort. Just needs team work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again I disagree on your sentiment that it takes very little effort. It usually ends up taking either multiple hive drops or multiple rushes before a dent is even made.
To sum it up I often end up disliking rounds that go longer than 70 minutes and end up getting bored no matter which team I'm on. Sometimes its fun and sometimes it isn't but personally I think that the alien commander should get an ability like this in NS2.
I disagree it goes either way and it seems to me like the aliens require much much more teamwork than the marines to pull off a cohesive attack. Games that drag out get boring and after the 70minute mark I usually end up leaving, also it begins to get demoralizing for the aliens because when marines get fully tech'd we're are only 2/3rd's tech'd.
I have as well and I think that it gets boring after 30+ minutes of jetpacking around a hive. On the alien side it seems to be generally demoralizing and difficult to break a turtle.
Once again I disagree on your sentiment that it takes very little effort. It usually ends up taking either multiple hive drops or multiple rushes before a dent is even made.
To sum it up I often end up disliking rounds that go longer than 70 minutes and end up getting bored no matter which team I'm on. Sometimes its fun and sometimes it isn't but personally I think that the alien commander should get an ability like this in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I still disagree. Aliens usually make the mistake of using Onos' which is stupid.
The best solution is to get mass fades, with some umbra, unbeatable really.
The best solution is to get mass fades, with some umbra, unbeatable really.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let's pick a marine start like tanith. On 32 plr server you can maybe land in a swipe, maybe even frag a light armor while you still get hit by 12 LMGs and the marine you fragged respawns at the 6 IPs in seconds. Even if you execute it perfectly, lerks are having a hard time sporing since there are only entrances - both easy to gl,ambush and block. Combined with the fps drop and performance drop caused by seeing 14 rines and all the buildings, explosions and ect, the chances are that the fade isn't going to live enough to contribute in the critical amount of fades needed for breaching the MS.
I'd rather not force the mappers to create huge entrances to the marine starts, they're having difficult enough time to create a map that suits both small competetive and big public games to some extend as well has both the balance and atmosphere.
I'd like to see the overall gameplay going towards the mobile war with bases being built and lost, but some specific turtle countering tech might be nice for finishing the games if not anything else. I think the shorter game finishing after the decisive battles was one of the goals of the devs anyway.
I'd rather not force the mappers to create huge entrances to the marine starts, they're having difficult enough time to create a map that suits both small competetive and big public games to some extend as well has both the balance and atmosphere.
I'd like to see the overall gameplay going towards the mobile war with bases being built and lost, but some specific turtle countering tech might be nice for finishing the games if not anything else. I think the shorter game finishing after the decisive battles was one of the goals of the devs anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Im not saying a fade solo's it. On a 32 player server (which NS isnt designed for - and its almost impossible for marines to lose on 32 player servers). Anyway, on a 32 player server, youd have like 12 fades, 2 lerks and 2 gorges. The fades all go in first... 12 fades causes chaos and marines will jsut be spamming and missing. THEN one chaos starts the lerks fly in, umbra the joint. then soon after the gorges come in and start biling what they can. End.
The problem is that saving for those 12 fades takes time. It means that the game gets unnecessarily prolonged for who knows how long. That's why you'll want to have the quick way. In addition a 12 fade rush is takes heavy coordination that pubs don't have, while the marines just have to shoot. The same problem revolves around the whole big server marine play, but that's probably worth another thread at some point.
If you take a look at an RTS game: practically each and every player more or less 'GGs out' out when they've lost the chances of winning, reducing the time of useless endgame close to 0. The equal in NS would be to f4 out the whole team on an agreement, but that's not going to happen due to people giving up way too early and ruining the whole game. The next best thing that comes to my mind is that aliens get some way to breach those game prolonging turtles somehow, reducing the ineffective period of gaming.
As for the nuking I don't know. What does it actually do? Does it allow aliens to take out practically any location at any point of the game?
There may be an answer and I just can't see it, but for now I think the wind down is a natural progression of the FPS RTS genre.
There may be an answer and I just can't see it, but for now I think the wind down is a natural progression of the FPS RTS genre.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The simple way could be making some alien tech that costs a huge load of res, but allows the aliens to finish the game in let's say in 3 minutes as long as they can maintain the res flow. Basically allowing the aliens to actually make use of the fact that they're controlling 85% of the map. I don't know if that creates some imbalances on major abuses. Most of all I'm worried about two newbie teams playing each other and one rushing for such techs while the other doesn't realize to take advantage.
Won't be practical enough to spam but maybe stop marines from just sieging and turret farming every hive.
Of course This idea needs a second Opinion.
There may be an answer and I just can't see it, but for now I think the wind down is a natural progression of the FPS RTS genre.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The immediate response is "make it a third hive ability!" (which i beleive it already is with acid rocket and web and xeno .... but the problem is that marines can turtle the last hive.
The simple solution is to make 4 hiveable locations.
A big thing though, is that often the marines turtle in the 3rd hive, so aliens are stuck without xeno or acid rocket, hence Jetpacks are hard to counter.
I don't see that happen often at all. When the marines relocate either they get outpaced in tech quickly and die quickly or they win quickly with map control. I don't see many relocates to a hive these days either because the locations are often easily bilebomb-able.
If marines relocate to a hive you need to take the opportunity to cut off res flow and really slow them down. If they get jetpacks you've let them live too long, or they've deserved to get the jetpacks.
I don't think the nuke should cost a flat percentage. This may cause abuse when everyone's res is low/spent. If the whole team has a total of 10 res, then the attack will only cost 3 res? Perhaps I'm mistaking something here.
Instead, I'd recommend some scaled value based on team size, and percentage taken equally. For example, in a 6 Alien game, perhaps set the cost at 60res total. Then, if the whole Alien team has a total of 120 res, that's 50% from everyone. If the entire alien team has a total of 240 res, it's 25% from everyone. But, on a larger Alien game, say 10 Aliens, it would cost more, say 100res total.
This is assuming the resource system scales with number of players, which has been a remark from the devs that they will hopefully be solving. So, more players means more total res to keep the amount of res per player sufficient.
The trick is 1) aiming and 2) consent/gathering of res. I like the idea of more res spent = more damage, but how is that determined? Also, how is aiming executed? Are we assuming an Alien Commander for this? If so, then I would suggest the Alien commander gets a choice of several % of res to spend on the attack, similar to what you originally propose, and the total accumulated from that will be the damage it causes, again offset by number of players.
Example. A 6 Alien team has decided to spend 30% of their res. This equates to 30 res total. For 6 players, that's a damage value of 5. For a team of 12 Aliens who spend 30% of their res and this turns into 30 res, it would be a damage value of 2.5. But, if later the 12 Alien team spends 30% of their res and it turns out to be 120res total spent, this would be a damage level of 10. Thus, the more absolute res you spend per player, the more damage it deals, and it is taken equally by percentage from each player.
And since its Kharaa, lets not call it nuke, call it say, infestation focus, and have it be infestation suddenly springing up around Marine buildings, thus cutting off the power (and other connections associated with the nano-grid) to them. Lights get dim, buildings stop functioning, and marines better hope they can burn that stuff fast enough to get it working again.
How about that?
Still, at the same time, we do realize we are shooting in the dark right? We don't have details on The Unified Resource Model (URM), which probably ties directly into map control, map triggers, Comm/Komm abilities, acquisition of equipment/diverse lifeforms, research & development of chambers/upgrades and their selection, and any number of other game play hooks. Its even been suggested the URM has more than one type of resource. How could we possibly even know if the turtle is going to happen anymore under such a new situation?
AR spam defeats any turtle.
This is a tough question but I think it should only be for non-ms locations.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And since its Kharaa, lets not call it nuke, call it say, infestation focus, and have it be infestation suddenly springing up around Marine buildings, thus cutting off the power (and other connections associated with the nano-grid) to them. Lights get dim, buildings stop functioning, and marines better hope they can burn that stuff fast enough to get it working again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like the atmospheric value of your idea and the use of infestation. I think it would fit into NS2 well. I just used the word nuke so everyone understood what i was talking about.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why not have a chamber similar to the siege turret? make long to build and killed with a few gernades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That was my first thought but I don't think that it would've been that great of an idea because marines could just nade it out right away.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think the nuke should cost a flat percentage. This may cause abuse when everyone's res is low/spent. If the whole team has a total of 10 res, then the attack will only cost 3 res? Perhaps I'm mistaking something here.
Instead, I'd recommend some scaled value based on team size, and percentage taken equally. For example, in a 6 Alien game, perhaps set the cost at 60res total. Then, if the whole Alien team has a total of 120 res, that's 50% from everyone. If the entire alien team has a total of 240 res, it's 25% from everyone. But, on a larger Alien game, say 10 Aliens, it would cost more, say 100res total.
This is assuming the resource system scales with number of players, which has been a remark from the devs that they will hopefully be solving. So, more players means more total res to keep the amount of res per player sufficient.
The trick is 1) aiming and 2) consent/gathering of res. I like the idea of more res spent = more damage, but how is that determined? Also, how is aiming executed? Are we assuming an Alien Commander for this? If so, then I would suggest the Alien commander gets a choice of several % of res to spend on the attack, similar to what you originally propose, and the total accumulated from that will be the damage it causes, again offset by number of players.
Example. A 6 Alien team has decided to spend 30% of their res. This equates to 30 res total. For 6 players, that's a damage value of 5. For a team of 12 Aliens who spend 30% of their res and this turns into 30 res, it would be a damage value of 2.5. But, if later the 12 Alien team spends 30% of their res and it turns out to be 120res total spent, this would be a damage level of 10. Thus, the more absolute res you spend per player, the more damage it deals, and it is taken equally by percentage from each player.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have some great ideas I didn't think of. I'd say gathering/consent would be like on custom maps where there is giveres. Everyone gives their res to the one or two gorges and the gorge has to do what the team wants with that res i.e. drop hive or resource towers. I think aiming could be similar if not the same as marines maybe with some kind of hivesight ping only for use with the seige. For example you use the hivesight ping and then you are locked in an area where you can attack. So say you hivesight ping a hive, shortly thereafter a target radius appears in that room (think build radius for marine structures) and then you can click anywhere in that room.
AR spam defeats any turtle.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A big part of this is that the marines turtle in the 3rd hive, so no acid rocket.
Simple solution is to add a 4th hive location.
Edit: On second thought I think my alternative should just be a new thread.