Landmarks and landmark bonuses
locallyunscene
Feeder of Trolls Join Date: 2002-12-25 Member: 11528Members, Constellation
Feeder of Trolls Join Date: 2002-12-25 Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">A defined set of secondary objectives</div>To summarize the two quotes from the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=104434&st=20&start=20" target="_blank">Vidcast #3 Thread</a>, landmarks in rooms should provide spells/bonuses to the commander that controls that room(DI vs Weldbot). But the landmarks should be limited in scope and type to prevent fragmentation. This bears some resemblance to the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=104321" target="_blank">Map Specific Damage Types Thread</a>.
<!--quoteo(post=1682008:date=Jun 26 2008, 09:40 AM:name=Jaynerd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jaynerd @ Jun 26 2008, 09:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1682008"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->what if:
-the commander is re-located to a different room? would certain "spells" be available in different rooms? such as security cameras providing additional information to the marines in a motion tracking manner, control of various facility doors/machines/trains/lights (turn off for sneaking, on for assault, flashing for "danger, filled with spore towers" or "this is the hive room"), or minor passive upgrades to health, ammo, armor, or resource gain and use costs (the commander is setup in the sickbay, thus all health packs cost 20% less resources. the commander is setup in the communications room, marines re-spawn a little faster). the same ideas could be applied to the aliens with the location of their hive (faster evolution from control of the kitchen, marine movement reducing ooze secretion from control of the sanitation room or sewage pipes, quicker cloaking transition from control of the greenhouse). The possibilities for variations based on the occupation or control of a landmark location seem endless.
I understand some landmarks would be purely for visual cues and flavor, but why not have them give strategic flavor too?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1682012:date=Jun 26 2008, 10:44 AM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(spellman23 @ Jun 26 2008, 10:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1682012"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Agreed. Just be careful, if the maps get too customized in of themselves, people will have to learn the map, not just the game. This is the biggest issue for Dystopia where the objectives are different in every map, so you have to learn each map, making each map almost its own game and the core game mechanics are just how you might be able to execute your plan.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Some possible bonuses:<ul><li> Camera control room that provides scouting into the fog-of-war. [camera symbol]</li><li> A metal/nanite flow bonus room (not a node that produces more res like the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=103913&hl=resource+bonus" target="_blank">res_rate_control thread</a>) that provides 1/3-1/4 additional metal/nanite per tick per node.[scrapyard symbol/pipe symbol]</li><li> A research/build bonus room[exoskeleton symbol]</li></ul>
Edit: It's a slightly different take on the Dynamic Environments:
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=NS2 About Page)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NS2 About Page)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Dynamic Environments</b>
Levels change as you play. Spreading alien infestation deforms hallways and causes space station power failure, halting all lifts. Destroying a catwalk's supports causes it to fall, revealing a new route. Use a flamethrower to clear infestation, spin webs to block a passage or weld a bulkhead shut for a last defense. Every game is different.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1682008:date=Jun 26 2008, 09:40 AM:name=Jaynerd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jaynerd @ Jun 26 2008, 09:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1682008"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->what if:
-the commander is re-located to a different room? would certain "spells" be available in different rooms? such as security cameras providing additional information to the marines in a motion tracking manner, control of various facility doors/machines/trains/lights (turn off for sneaking, on for assault, flashing for "danger, filled with spore towers" or "this is the hive room"), or minor passive upgrades to health, ammo, armor, or resource gain and use costs (the commander is setup in the sickbay, thus all health packs cost 20% less resources. the commander is setup in the communications room, marines re-spawn a little faster). the same ideas could be applied to the aliens with the location of their hive (faster evolution from control of the kitchen, marine movement reducing ooze secretion from control of the sanitation room or sewage pipes, quicker cloaking transition from control of the greenhouse). The possibilities for variations based on the occupation or control of a landmark location seem endless.
I understand some landmarks would be purely for visual cues and flavor, but why not have them give strategic flavor too?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1682012:date=Jun 26 2008, 10:44 AM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(spellman23 @ Jun 26 2008, 10:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1682012"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Agreed. Just be careful, if the maps get too customized in of themselves, people will have to learn the map, not just the game. This is the biggest issue for Dystopia where the objectives are different in every map, so you have to learn each map, making each map almost its own game and the core game mechanics are just how you might be able to execute your plan.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Some possible bonuses:<ul><li> Camera control room that provides scouting into the fog-of-war. [camera symbol]</li><li> A metal/nanite flow bonus room (not a node that produces more res like the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=103913&hl=resource+bonus" target="_blank">res_rate_control thread</a>) that provides 1/3-1/4 additional metal/nanite per tick per node.[scrapyard symbol/pipe symbol]</li><li> A research/build bonus room[exoskeleton symbol]</li></ul>
Edit: It's a slightly different take on the Dynamic Environments:
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=NS2 About Page)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NS2 About Page)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Dynamic Environments</b>
Levels change as you play. Spreading alien infestation deforms hallways and causes space station power failure, halting all lifts. Destroying a catwalk's supports causes it to fall, revealing a new route. Use a flamethrower to clear infestation, spin webs to block a passage or weld a bulkhead shut for a last defense. Every game is different.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
Basicly, little locales having their own unique flavor that even goes so far as to provide this or that lil tweak to the game is IMHO ideal, especially from a Commander/Hive Mind perspective. Sub-objectives that can be put into on/off would also just enhance my game immensely: "We repaired the generator, Comm execute your program! Dang, they knocked out the connection again!"
Isn't the little bits of tug-o-war why we play this game? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> I would be all for as many enviromental considerations as possible, to the point where every map does in fact have a sense of exploration that comes with learning it ... only, if done right, its conceivable that a map would have such depth that one could experiment with the exploration, because it would be pretty crazy to figure out every nuance with flame/weld vs infestation/kharaa-form (a play on terra-form).
How do you avoid a haphazard, way too chaotic game though? Hmm, I think the answer lies in a game I played recently as a demo: Company of Heroes. Play the tutorial ---> Do you know how territory was taken, there were different supply pool, there were supply lines and a front line of a sort? That would be sweet in NS2, a sort of "territory", one of the nanite and the other of the infestation. Let the war begin!
I'd hate to see a room that decreased research time. Commanders would always try to relocate there off the bat, if they failed their team full of pubbers would be demoralized. If the they succeeded the aliens would have to push them out instantly or the whole flow of the game would be destroyed. (IE: fades in 5 mins but JPs/Exo in 3.5) I wouldn't want to see a room that offered more damage, ammo, movement speed, pretty much anything that directly affects a players game for the same reasons. Hopefully with more additions and complexity being brought into the commanding role, there won't be a need for 'special rooms.'
If this idea was 100% guaranteed to go into the game, I'd prefer to see incredibly small and very niche-like abilities granted -- such as a reduction in scanner sweep cost/cooldown. Some of the suggestions, such as a faster resource rate, seem pointless as if a mapper wants a room to give more resources they can just turn it into a double node.
I guess I wouldn't want something that a team could look at and go "well, they got special room X so we're screwed" when only a minute has passed.
These objectives would be secondary, similar to how getting double res is now, but with more variation. Relocating to the fast tech/build room is only worth it if you can get the res to use it. The main idea is not to add such ridiculous bonuses to reduce the objectives to one room(which is easy to avoid); that's the exact opposite of the proposal.
<!--quoteo(post=1682029:date=Jun 26 2008, 03:10 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SentrySteve @ Jun 26 2008, 03:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1682029"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If this idea was 100% guaranteed to go into the game, I'd prefer to see incredibly small and very niche-like abilities granted -- such as a reduction in scanner sweep cost/cooldown.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's exactly what <b>spellman23</b> was saying he didn't want to have in the game happen because then you end up with all these different map specific objectives that confuse players.
<!--quoteo(post=1682029:date=Jun 26 2008, 03:10 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SentrySteve @ Jun 26 2008, 03:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1682029"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Some of the suggestions, such as a faster resource rate, seem pointless as if a mapper wants a room to give more resources they can just turn it into a double node.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except there's a very distinct difference between a double res room and a room that slightly increases res per node. A double res room starts out important and loses importance as a team acquires more nodes. A res rate increasing node is not a big deal in the beginning, but if a team has res control that room becomes much more important.
Right, just about any idea taken to its extreme is terrible, it negates strategy as it stagnates to being the "best" strategy and soon after the only strategy, where as all others are "noob".
Do you think its safe to assume yet that gamers in their suggestions on the variables of the options in a multiplayer game have matured enough to not ask for the BFG from Doom anymore? I don't know about you, but given the track record of NS1 updates, I would hope it would be safe to assume that when one of us makes a suggestion that it is the minimalistic approach, rather than even a moderate or extremist approach, so that we could allow all the lil'tiny additions to add up to something bigger that has more variation in the end game, the tug-o-war, allowing approach that pretty much lets anything go as viable if you are up to the challenge of meeting the opposing sides own twists and turns of incremental adaptation.
I quote that last line because I wouldn't want that either, that would suck, but how about "They have special, we have such and such special, let us use the difference to OUR advantage." Paper > Rock, Scissors > Paper, Rock > Scissors. We tie, we win, we lose. Explore, Experiment, Adapt.
IMHO, you are so right. If advances aren't in small increments, it just gets weighed to one side, games get "screwed". Hopefully suggestions are such that we won't encounter the "game over" of NS1 double resource nodes or hive lock downs, in as such to completely demoralize another team because of their lack of viable options.
And just to continue with the example of double res, I've seen plenty of games where marines relocated to [insert advantageous location here] at lost because A.) it's a risky move that takes time, B.) It's not the main objective of killing the hive. If the marines get double res but fail to take the second hive they have problems. If the marines set up spawn in a choke point they better keep containment and watch their res nodes closely. And if they take the middle hive they better push out quick for res nodes and keep pressure on the other hives.
I don't think I took it to an extreme. Seeing how the suggestions were for rooms that increased damage, armor, a reduction in the cost of medpacks, and even a decrease in research time I thought my conclusion was a logical one to come to.
Even if the changes are 'small,' these changes are heavily impacting the entire game. How much more armor will it grant? Enough to survive another skulk bite when combined with armor 1 or 2? That's a really huge change.
Seeing how only one suggestion was "reduce the fog of war a little bit" and the others were, in my opinion, gamebreaking I figured I'd chime in.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->IMHO, you are so right. If advances aren't in small increments<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On a competitive level, even small increments will have unintended consequences. I see a room that increases damage or armor as disastrous towards competitive strategies.
And like sentrysteve pointed out, the whole match would suddenly be based on if one room was controlled in the beginning of the game. As soon as the alien team sees the marines have possession of that room they would just quit.
F4 anyone?
Edit: Here is something to consider, I think the increments of armor/weapons upgrades and other equipment in NS1 is larger than ideal, I would consider them to be moderate, not minimal. I think the tech and bio trees of both sides could see improvement by breaking up the current 3 tiers into more tiers of smaller increments and greater variation of types.
Right on, I must have misinterpreted. Who knows, maybe this idea is great -- just because I disagree with it doesn't make it bad.
Anyways, re-iterating what I said previously on preventing bonuses from being confusing from map-to-map:
<!--quoteo(post=1682012:date=Jun 26 2008, 02:44 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(spellman23 @ Jun 26 2008, 02:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1682012"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Perhaps to mitigate this, have special cues that this room will give certain bonuses, like for cameras it's always the room with a certain model (giant screens taking up a wall) and a little camera symbol on the mini map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm becoming a fan of your ideas for small, but several bonuses. In fact, perhaps some bonuses could be obtained in different rooms, but holding both would stack the advantages. For example, there could be two rooms that give an armor boost, but effectually if both sides have one of them, they cancel each other out. Or perhaps it tends to help the aliens more, so the Marines will have to hold the other Armor room to help cope, but need one other room to get back the upper hand. Or, they could try instead to take the single damage upgrading room that will essentially negate the Alien's upgraded armor.
The possibilities can get a little complicated, so hopefully we keep this system simple, but not a dry R-P-S (rock-paper-scissor) system. I hate pure R-P-S systems. But, too many bonuses and balancing the effects becomes a nightmare.
I'd also like to add that hopefully these will be available to the mapper, but they can set the strength of the bonus, and differentiate it to work differently for either team. That way, the mapper can make the rooms in the center large and hard to hold, but a bigger payoff. Or perhaps one room gives better vision to Marines, but Aliens taking control of it gives better DI growth since they gum up the systems. Plus, that way the mapper can tweak the effects to how much they want the rooms to be valued. Rooms further form MS and Hives giving better effects (by the nature or strength of the bonus) versus the reverse would make completely different games.
Last thing, how do we determine who holds the bonus? I'm guessing Aliens by DI, and Marines by not DI as a first thought, but what about weldables, destroy by biting, building in the room, etc. There's a possibility that by controlling the RT in the room gives the bonus as well, but this isn't necessarily true for all the bonuses. Gah, so many ways to do this, but potentially so awesome.
On a competitive level, even small increments will have unintended consequences. I see a room that increases damage or armor as disastrous towards competitive strategies.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You seem to be focusing on the actual bonuses, which is why I added my own in the OP.
<!--quoteo(post=1682018:date=Jun 26 2008, 11:13 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Jun 26 2008, 11:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1682018"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Some possible bonuses:<ul><li> Camera control room that provides scouting into the fog-of-war. [camera symbol]</li><li> A metal/nanite flow bonus room (not a node that produces more res like the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=103913&hl=resource+bonus" target="_blank">res_rate_control thread</a>) that provides 1/3-1/4 additional metal/nanite per tick per node.[scrapyard symbol/pipe symbol]</li><li> A research/build bonus room[exoskeleton symbol]</li></ul>:<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that these landmarks should be something the comm worries about and not the players on the ground except that they identify rooms, and that's why I didn't suggest armor or weapon upgrades and focused on economy, scouting, and overall tech level. As I said before these bonuses would not be so huge that the entire map becomes about one room. The goal is to provide a secondary objective, not replace the primaries.
I agree that they should have subtle advantages. I'm starting to like the specific idea of <b>locallyunscene</b> on it being a bit more of a commander's concern for strategy and are a means to an end.
The best way is to akin them to res nodes. While holding more generally is better, it's not the ultimate goal of the game. they are nice and make the goal easier, but just hold res nodes doesn't win games. Similarly, in chess you can even with less material (pieces) or weaker pieces if they strategic placement and position, clinching the checkmate.
Good idea though.