Commander Depth: Micromanagement
SentrySteve
.txt Join Date: 2002-03-09 Member: 290Members, Constellation
.txt Join Date: 2002-03-09 Member: 290Members, Constellation
If you think commanding in NS1 is lacking then this thread could be for you. In an attempt to add depth and value to the commander’s role for NS2 I’ve attempted to identify the reasons why commanding isn’t really like playing an RTS and to suggest ideas on how to improve upon these weaknesses. If this thread goes over well we could do one for macromanagement and other RTS-essential features. Although I ultimately think these ideas are good, I’m not too ‘passionate’ about them (if you will) and am more-or-less shooting out ideas on how to add skill to commander’s role. Feel free to critique or add your own.
<u><b>
What is Micromanagement?</b></u>
Micromanagement is when the player spends their time doing smaller tasks related to individual units or functions. Micromanagement skills are one of the most important to a RTS player and easily separate the professionals from the amateurs or novices. For the purpose of this thread I am going to limit my post to only include the microing of unit abilities as they’re the most applicable to a RTS/FPS. Examples of unit abilities include triggering ‘Bloodlust’ on an Orc Shaman in WC3 or selecting a priest then casting a heal spell.
<u><b>
How does NS1 currently implement micromanagement?</b></u>
For the most part, micro in NS1 is: dropping med / ammo / cat packs, scanner sweeps, and beacons. One of the reasons why micro seems non-existent, when compared to a traditional RTS, is the fact that we’re playing a RTS/FPS and microing movement or gatherer time is not possible. This may be why commanding seems ‘boring,’ ‘like babysitting,’ or ‘not like an RTS’ to some players. Since the opportunity to micro unit abilities is present in NS, I think it should be looked into since other essential RTS features do not easily present themselves.
<u><b>How can NS2 improve upon micromanagement?</b>
</u>
I think having unit abilities could add depth to the role of commander for those skillful enough to master them. In NS, the ‘units’ are the troops on the ground. So in essence, I’m suggesting that the commander should be able to activate a bonus once the player is selected (by clicking or by hitting a control group). Should bonus be researched? Should each use require resources? How many resources should it cost? What could the possible bonuses be? If it costs resources, should there be cool downs?
I don’t really know. I’d just like to see the ‘commander’ role actually play somewhat like an RTS. With unit abilities in the game a good commander would group their individual marines/aliens and would be constantly switching between them to ensure s/he gave them bonuses in combat. I think it would add some intensity to the role that could be exploited by a skillful commander to give the team a boost or easily disregarded if a comm can’t handle it.
I can suggest one way to implement this idea. I think it would be interesting if certain buildings (some, or all of them) unlocked specific abilities that the commander could use on marines for a resource cost and the abilities would have a cool down period, both of which would have to be determined later.
Examples:
Infantry Portal: Marine builds X% faster for X seconds.
Arms Lab: Marine reloads X% faster for X seconds. (to help GLers, for example)
Proto Lab: Marine gets an instant jetpack recharge or something else beneficial to the exoskeleton
I’m sure there could be plenty of suggestions for abilities. Increase damage, decrease damage taken, whatever else we can think of. The Kharaa may or may not have something similar. There is a problem though – and that’s balance. Finding the right balance between effectiveness and cost would be a difficult thing but I think the commander desperately needs more depth.
<u><b>
What is Micromanagement?</b></u>
Micromanagement is when the player spends their time doing smaller tasks related to individual units or functions. Micromanagement skills are one of the most important to a RTS player and easily separate the professionals from the amateurs or novices. For the purpose of this thread I am going to limit my post to only include the microing of unit abilities as they’re the most applicable to a RTS/FPS. Examples of unit abilities include triggering ‘Bloodlust’ on an Orc Shaman in WC3 or selecting a priest then casting a heal spell.
<u><b>
How does NS1 currently implement micromanagement?</b></u>
For the most part, micro in NS1 is: dropping med / ammo / cat packs, scanner sweeps, and beacons. One of the reasons why micro seems non-existent, when compared to a traditional RTS, is the fact that we’re playing a RTS/FPS and microing movement or gatherer time is not possible. This may be why commanding seems ‘boring,’ ‘like babysitting,’ or ‘not like an RTS’ to some players. Since the opportunity to micro unit abilities is present in NS, I think it should be looked into since other essential RTS features do not easily present themselves.
<u><b>How can NS2 improve upon micromanagement?</b>
</u>
I think having unit abilities could add depth to the role of commander for those skillful enough to master them. In NS, the ‘units’ are the troops on the ground. So in essence, I’m suggesting that the commander should be able to activate a bonus once the player is selected (by clicking or by hitting a control group). Should bonus be researched? Should each use require resources? How many resources should it cost? What could the possible bonuses be? If it costs resources, should there be cool downs?
I don’t really know. I’d just like to see the ‘commander’ role actually play somewhat like an RTS. With unit abilities in the game a good commander would group their individual marines/aliens and would be constantly switching between them to ensure s/he gave them bonuses in combat. I think it would add some intensity to the role that could be exploited by a skillful commander to give the team a boost or easily disregarded if a comm can’t handle it.
I can suggest one way to implement this idea. I think it would be interesting if certain buildings (some, or all of them) unlocked specific abilities that the commander could use on marines for a resource cost and the abilities would have a cool down period, both of which would have to be determined later.
Examples:
Infantry Portal: Marine builds X% faster for X seconds.
Arms Lab: Marine reloads X% faster for X seconds. (to help GLers, for example)
Proto Lab: Marine gets an instant jetpack recharge or something else beneficial to the exoskeleton
I’m sure there could be plenty of suggestions for abilities. Increase damage, decrease damage taken, whatever else we can think of. The Kharaa may or may not have something similar. There is a problem though – and that’s balance. Finding the right balance between effectiveness and cost would be a difficult thing but I think the commander desperately needs more depth.
Comments
I guess more scouting possibilities, more support 'spells' like scan and meds and more possibilities to communicate both via the game ui and voice are the ways to keep the comm busy. You can't really ignore the importance of commander's communication. That's actually the biggest challenge for me while I'm in the chair.
I don't know how the economy system is going to work, but it might be that the commander has a recharging 'mana' pool that allows him to use some of the abilities while some spells and tech cost the actual main res. That way the commander would always have some micro spells without having to prioritize it over the tech. Then again you could still have a lot of support and little tech if you invested your main res of the spells too. It might get quite confusing though.
One of the things that has kept me puzzled is the commander's role in scouting. Scan and soundscape scouting are nice, promote situational awarness and add a nice piece of micromanagement that newbie commanders commanders can almost ignore until they're comfortable with the basic routine. The downside is that you don't have to use your marines to do any scouting. I'd love to see some LMGs doing early game scouting and commander adjusting his strategy based on what the scouts saw. That's the real RTS way. Starcraft for example pulls of absolutely brilliant gameplay around scouting and the fact that you can't just scan all over the map and see the exact enemy plan.
Resolve that issue by giving something else to the commander and you might have made an improvement.
Then again you could still have a lot of support and little tech if you invested your main res of the spells too. It might get quite confusing though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, it's hard to come up with ideas for NS2's commanding since we're thinking in terms of NS1. Adding unit abilities that could be triggered by the comm for each individual player was my suggestion, since it's a pretty common thing in almost all RTS's. I'd like to see more general support spells (like scans) as well but just can't think of any decent ideas on what they could be.
The way you describe managing resources between tech / spells is very similar to what I had in mind for macromanagement. For example, if all resources taken in were "Metal" for use in tech / buildings but could then be converted into "Nanites" or "Energy" for use in spells the commander could have some nice macro decisions to make. Keep all metal? Convert all to Energy? Convert only a percent to Energy? When to convert? etc.
You know what drives me nuts about playing a NS1 Commander? Not just the constant complaints from back seat field commanders but spam. Yes, spam. I hate med/ammo/weapon/armor spamming. I feel like a damn soda pop machine, where a Marine in the field hits a button, expects their drop instantly, and then starts kicking the damn machine if they don't have enough change or the pop can gets stuck sideways or all the pop is sold... Thank goodness this is at least partly getting addressed with Marines doing their equipment load outs.
The scanning is kinda fun, especially when its to aim the siege cannons, that gets a tingle of excitement when things go "Boom!"
I also enjoy the way points, though if you don't have a mic to explain the way point, it pretty much gets ignored about 50% of the time ... that is if you can actually be quick enough to select the marine(s), so I often just end up basing my way point decisions on using the all marine select button. The way points could stand some improvement for sure and I think that was getting addressed as well.
Something that is really underused is the opening and closing of doors. As a Commander, I really wanted a ton more interaction with the map. I may not be able to control a marine in detail or even want to since I might piss them off and never hear the end of it on the voice/text chat but it would be really cool to control some features of a map: bridges, cranes, ramps, doors ... being enviromental can be a ton of fun, ever play Zombie Master? That thing is a blast to set off traps - in terms of actually being a help to your team, I think 'hacking' (aka interacting) a map to produce benefits would be very cool. What if the Commander was the one controlling the rail car, hmm?
Also, what about those robots that were mentioned in a pod cast? I think there was some mention of it doing some welding? Now that would be cool, have the Commander micro through robots. Also, like the aiming of a siege cannon, what if other types of robots, say the turrets, could have some tweaks done on them by a Commander?
A lot of the suggestions I have read are perfectly fine in single player or against other Commanders, but could you imagine the head ache you are going to get when your Squads/Packs of Marines/Kharaa rip into you for activating what they think is the wrong micro? Its bad enough with the aforementioned "spam" of NS1.
Oh, and keep in mind, my suggestions of focusing on map interaction and the NPCs of NS, I think the Hive Mind (Kharaa Kommander) should get to do similar stuff as well, tweak spikeys (Offense Chambers) and mess around with the Dynamic Infestation somehow. Get enviromental, avoid screwing with another player's game too much beyond research and strategy, please let the grunt/life form have the most impact on the tactical decisions of making those orders happen.
Commanding and RTS games aren't appealing due to micromanagement. Sure it give a difficulty depth, but, as you mentioned, we can't micro the units to move or focus fire.
While an interesting idea, it's still babysitting. Expect instead of just ammo and meds, we have to individually select Marines and give them a boost? Not my idea of fun RTS gamin'
I also enjoyed Canadians comment about being a vending machine. Oh man, so many times I have to yell back that they're lives are not worth the res. Stupid morons thinking it's free. Medspam will not save you from a decent Fade for goodness sake.
I like Canadian's idea of more map interaction, although I'm not 100% sure how to go about it. Abilities have been mentioned, as has special buildings and walls and just more buttons on the map. I'm a fan of Commander's manipulating doors.
In the end, we want more Commander interaction, but not if it's babysitting perpetually whinny Marines.
I'm very glad you posted this; I was waiting for someone to. There are many RTS players out there who agree with you -- they hate microing their economy, for example. To appeal to these players developers created games like Dawn of War (meh) and Company of Heroes (much better) that places emphasis on developing a strategy based off what your opponent is doing without being 'bogged down' by trying to manage too much.
However, I think we'd make a big mistake if we follow this idea of freeing up tasks so that commander can develop a strategy. It's my opinion that the Commander is just one person on the team, and the general strategy is created by everyone on the team. What the team says over the mic and what they do / where they go in-game all has an affect on the team's strategy. The general strategy is determined by everyone playing the game, therefore when you task one person with the 'strategy' role you only create frustration or boredom, depending on how seriously that person takes their role (which is what we have now). That's why I think adding in micro features could help enhance the role of commander.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Something that is really underused is the opening and closing of doors. As a Commander, I really wanted a ton more interaction with the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed. "Underused" is the perfect word for it and I hope this changes in NS2 as well.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->could you imagine the head ache you are going to get when your Squads/Packs of Marines/Kharaa rip into you for activating what they think is the wrong micro? Its bad enough with the aforementioned "spam" of NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This could be a 'problem,' but honestly I wouldn't expect the ordinary average commander to be able to micro even 1/3 of their players. If the marine is angry because they didn't get some kind of temporary micro boost, then they just have absolutely unreasonable expectations. This would be something that would separate the "okay" or even "good" commanders from the "professional" or "superior" commanders.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While an interesting idea, it's still babysitting. Expect instead of just ammo and meds, we have to individually select Marines and give them a boost? Not my idea of fun RTS gamin'<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I see your point about 'babysitting,' however, what does the commander honestly have? As I tried to point out in the above part of this post, they don't really control general strategy and if we remove or dumb down micro in NS2 all thats left is dropping buildings and researching weapons/armor. That's not my idea of fun RTS gaming. <i>Something</i> needs to be added, just not sure what.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This could be a 'problem,' but honestly I wouldn't expect the ordinary average commander to be able to micro even 1/3 of their players. If the marine is angry because they didn't get some kind of temporary micro boost, then they just have absolutely unreasonable expectations. This would be something that would separate the "okay" or even "good" commanders from the "professional" or "superior" commanders.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well said.
I don't know how well you can implement that in ns gameplay. It easily creates absolute bottlenecks on doors and such. The fade can't go in because the commander can shut the only escape route with a single mouseclick. I guess you could create some weldables and ect to prevent the abuse, but its still going to be a difficult one to balance it smartly. If you limit it too much it becomes just a dull job to open all the doors for a moving squad.
Maybe you could build something on railway carts and create some mobile buildings. I could see a tf built and upgraded on on place and then transported for the siegespot by rail.
As for the micro in general: You want the micro to be a good mix of speed and thinking. Medding a hiverush is the speed part while making a quick call whether a lone marine is worth medding is somewhat close to the thinking part. Anything that allows the comm to be creative micro wise is a huge bonus.
I just played C&C3 and totally know what you're talking about Canadian. (it should be renamed to Mamoth Tank vs Venom vs Aliens Always Lose to a 100 mamoth tank column) Macromanagement is hard enough to grasp by itself, without adding a new dimension of skill. Some players get frustrated by the huge amount of things they need to do, but they don't realize that they only have to play slightly better than the other player of equivalent skill level in order to win. When you are able to get the initial 6 minutes of a game down FLAWLESSLY without a single error consistently, you will have a tremendous amount of fun like no other. The reward is watching your own replays at how sexy your ByTheBook play is.
This example sums it up:
Two drivers in identical vehicles will probably end up fairly close to each other at the finish line. Now make the two drivers juggle open beer bottles while driving in front of police officers, I'm pretty sure that the gap there isn't going to be at close.
Now which one is going to be more fun watching?
All I will say is that there are options out there that allow the Commander to be busy without it being complex to perform. It's about focusing the skill element on when and what the Commander chooses to deploy and not focusing the skill element on performing a task. The ideal system for NS for me is one that isn't very fiddly to accomplish, which macroing individual units is.
When everything is taken as concepts, I can agree with that. The problem is I just can't tell the difference or am having a hard time trying to think of examples.
For instance, in NS1 a commander has to decide when / how to medpack spam. But isn't that also performing a task? There's certainly very little skill involved in medpack spamming, or deciding when to drop that observatory. So where does the fun come in?
I dunno... I made this thread because I feel like commanding in NS1 in no way, shape, or form feels like an RTS. Calling NS a "RTS/FPS" really seems like a stretch to me. Calling it an "One Guy Drops Things/FPS" or "OGDT/FPS" seems like a much more fitting description.
One of the absolute most basic components to any RTS on the market today is micromanagement. Some games base their entire selling point off micro (World in Conflict, Company of Heroes) while others rely on a balance between macro / micro (starcraft, warcraft). Due to the inherent nature of an RTS/FPS controlling unit movement can't be done and currently resource management does not require any skill (although hopefully having 2 different resources adds more to this) so it doesn't seem like downplaying unit micro (all that's left) is a decent idea to me.
Although I can agree with microing units being complex, but then again I'd consider it one of the last things on the commander's learning curve so I would hope there would be some complexity to the commander's role at some point in the game.
Commander orders marines to hold position, if the marine is in x units range of the hld position waypoint he will get a slight bonus to armor aborption.
Commander orders mariens to attack a specific building/alien. Marines with that order will deal slightly more damage to that target.
etc
etc
You can do this for every order imaginable:
patrol between 2 wps: speed increase
build structure: slightly faster build
attack target: more damage
hold position: increased armor absorption
weld target: faster welding
THis has also the added bonus, that the players who follow orders get rewarded.
Decent. I like it. The marine being within a certain range of the waypoint would be key though, as otherwise the commander would just issue an attack order in marine spawn then everyone would have slightly more damage.
Commander orders marines to hold position, if the marine is in x units range of the hld position waypoint he will get a slight bonus to armor aborption.
Commander orders mariens to attack a specific building/alien. Marines with that order will deal slightly more damage to that target.
etc
etc
You can do this for every order imaginable:
patrol between 2 wps: speed increase
build structure: slightly faster build
attack target: more damage
hold position: increased armor absorption
weld target: faster welding
THis has also the added bonus, that the players who follow orders get rewarded.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like this but may I suggest something? Could the or a bonus for following orders be that it helps a marine get whatever points it is that count towards their equipment loadout? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
I don't think so because from the mock up it looked like rines were getting their own honest-to-god resource pools. Being able to generate res from followed orders is scary broken.
Ahh, I meant "help", not generate. Mostly being vague because I am not sure yet what the mechanic would be for putting points/credits/resources/energy/money/whatever in those pools, but I would hope it would tie into helping fulfill a role for your side, which I would imagine would have some direction as to what roles are needed by a Commander/Kommander or the Squads/Packs, as opposed to the rogue Rambo but I would still think covert infiltrators would be a benefit to the team too...
I definitely was not suggesting a means by which a Comm/Komm could artificially boost a player's pool by dropping meaningless, spammed orders that "generate" resources from nothing. That would be terribly broken and I don't know why you would think I would ever want an even worse situation then the Armory Humping.
Until I know just what a Unified Resource Model entails - how the different resources are acquired, what pools they are divided into, and how the resources scale into gameplay over time - I don't really know how I could suggest anything that isn't vague like another way of "helping" kinda like the boosts to armor or attack.
Hmm, how about improvements in information gathering and analysis? I think those are under rated ways to reward a player as well, that could come about by a Comm/Komm doing that voodoo that they do.
I guess, I am just trying to think up more ways then the tried and true + 1 armor and/or +1 attack ... and thus kinda boring and maybe imbalancing like some past games have had the misfortune to have happen to them in the past.
Edit: Oh, how would this be for a bit of micro, could the Comm/Komm direct the "homing" part of something that a Marine fires, lets say a rocket propelled grenade or some sort of other missile. Remember that silly movie The Fifth Element where the bad guy curves a barrage of ammunition away from the aliens and to the target dummy behind him? Just an idea, what if the Comm/Komm got to aim the siege cannons or turrets instead of just letting it auto aim?
Comm assisted aiming for a weapon sounds neat, but it seems a bit too limited. Would you want this weapon if the comm wasn't paying attention to you? By changing the GL into attachment the devs seems to be dropping pure support weapons. I don't know though.
Maybe its a stretch, me going out on a limb here just brain storming, but if a Marine had the appropriate weapon attachment in question, I would hope that it would mean a Commander would end up paying more attention to you, not less, and something appropriate, like a symbol above the Marine indicating he has such a capability that could be "enhanced" by a Commander's assistance, so the vague idea would be that normally whatever this attachment is, it fires normally in some fashion but if the Commander does his thing, it would be attracted to where he aims, thus curving its trajectory on a x/y deal as dictated by his view and the Marine would still be responsible for its pitch/slope. I would suggest a weird bouncy ball projectile or even babblers for the Kharaa <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
I imagine (thus have no idea if its practical) that it would add a potentially skillful, yet team work element that kinda slips by the direct damage dealt by a Commander that I have seen frowned upon in other threads I have seen on the subject of engaging the Comm/Komm ("spells" thread, I think, and others related to spicing up the Commander's play).
That's quite demanding for the pub play. It's painful for the commander just to wait and see when the marine decides to move in and fire the gun. I could see that kind of action in organised play, but on public game it would probably be just babysitting the marine with the gun while you could be doing a million of other things.
On general note, the RTS micro is more about doing a lot of small things than decicating for a single action here and there. Obiviously you can make NS2 something whole new on that aspect though.
On general note, the RTS micro is more about doing a lot of small things than decicating for a single action here and there. Obiviously you can make NS2 something whole new on that aspect though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are right, I guess I am just messing around with ideas based on my own hopes for a Commander experience that doesn't feel like baby sitting & vending machine, but gets involved and helps blow stuff up and changes the enviroment and other visceral stuff to get their gaming adrenaline up while still maintaining the tension of considering one's overall strategy in resource acquisition, tech progression & map position: defense & offense...
Actually, come to think of it, do you consider it baby sitting in NS1 when you have to wait for the marines on the ground to build a siege cannon for you before you can aim and fire it with a scan? It works there, so I'm not sure its such a stretch to temporarily give a Commander a aiming reticle every once in a while and have that blast of exhilaration when one does something amazing with a team mate that results in *Boom!*
Hmm, "the RTS micro is more about doing a lot of small things", I realize it is very possible I just don't get it, I kinda thought I was doing a lot of small things already considering by top down view and grand scale afforded by the information the map and other GUI of being the Commander. So, what have we got so far, would they all add up to small things to do all over the place for a Commander? (My apologizes if I summarize/paraphrase any of these ideas wrong)
- unlock, select, & execute a individual's powers
- tech invested in "spells"
- tech tree branches
- structure placement (marine only?*)
- supply drops aka spam (personally hate this one <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />)
- scans & other "spells"
- relaying information to the marine
- map manipulation/control
- 'robot/creature' NPC manipulation/control
- way point bonus
- assisted aiming
Hmm, looking at that list, am I confusing some macro with micro? If I have, I apologize, my hopes for NS2 may just be in a different focus, so I need to try to be more understanding and remember that micro can be fun for others, even if I find its vaseline slick handle not my cracked cup o'tea <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
I'm glad you suggested it even if it wasn't the best idea. That's what the I&S forums are for anyway.
<!--quoteo(post=1681554:date=Jun 19 2008, 10:59 AM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Jun 19 2008, 10:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1681554"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hmm, looking at that list, am I confusing some macro with micro? If I have, I apologize, my hopes for NS2 may just be in a different focus, so I need to try to be more understanding and remember that micro can be fun for others, even if I find its vaseline slick handle not my cracked cup o'tea <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most people talk about micro and macro like this:
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Micro</b> - using units efficiently:<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><ul><li> use of spells/abilities
- <i>examples:</i><ul><li> when and where to psistorm</li><li> dropping a medpack on a marine</li></ul></li><li> positioning and repositioning of units within groups for maximum damage/range/longevity
- <i>examples:</i><ul><li> moving a wounded SC marine from the front lines to the back for healing</li><li> focus firing</li><li> unsieging tanks as zerglings approach</li></ul></li></ul> - <b>Depth in Micro:</b><ul><li> skill moves performing a series of actions quickly(APM*)</li><li> quickly determining the correct course of action based on the enemies' moves</li></ul>
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Macro</b> - using resources efficiently:<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><ul><li> location and timing of expansions, mobile forces, buildings
- <i>examples:</i><ul><li> choosing which rts to drop</li><li> choosing when to siege</li></ul></li><li> Number of expansions, mobile forces, buildings
- <i>examples:</i><ul><li> How many sgs/welders/mines to drop</li></ul></li><li> economy spent on technology research vs units produced and when(build order)
- <i>examples:</i><ul><li> choosing when to research the AA</li><li> choosing MT over W2 or more weapons</li></ul></li></ul> - <b>Depth in Macro:</b><ul><li> skill moves performing a series of actions quickly(APM*)</li><li> having a build order and being able to adjust to enemy strategies</li><li> map strategies
- <i>examples:</i><ul><li> chokepoint/map control</li><li> 2 hive lockdown</li></ul></li></ul>
*Micro and macro are both influenced APM(Actions Per Minute). A person who can respond faster(ie move the zealot out of range of the marines, drop a medpack on a marine) is generally considered to have better micro as long as they're making the right decisions. Likewise a person who uses hotkeys to quickly research tech and build units would be considered to have better macro, as long as it's the right tech <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> .
Edit: Made it prettier.
If a Comm clicks on an enemy with an 'attack this' order on it at the instant they take damage from Marine fire, bonus damage is added? Only one target can receive bonus damage per click. Imagine the Com syncing hit clicks with a Marine's shots. This would be easier to do with a grenade since the Com would wait until it explodes and click at that instance.
I dunno that's a very brief and random idea. Maybe someone who comms more than I do can tell me if this would be an interesting enough micro to add in?
There is an argument that it would make the Alien game less predictable and also allow the Comm to deal direct damage (with the help of Marines). It's a very fuzzy idea at the moment.
Locally summed it up well, but honestly don't worry about what to call your idea. It's probably good just to throw out a lot of ideas -- most of them will most likely be shot down -- but some could be decent.
<!--QuoteBegin-'Crispy'+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE('Crispy')</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Crispy's idea<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like the idea. How did you have it envisioned? When I read your post it seemed like only one "attack this" order would grant a boost to a marine shooting the target. It could be neat to have some kind of tech research -- maybe first tier is the commander can put one "attack this" order out in the field with a +X% bonus to damage. Next tier would be two attack orders, and some tier may even contain a "focus fire" order which could cost a decent amount of res to place down, or a long cooldown timer, that would result in more of a damage bonus. The standard weapons 1 through 3 could still be in the game -- leaving the choice of damage bonuses to the commander. If he thinks his micro is up to the challenge, he could save a fair amount of res by skipping out on those upgrades and opting for the micro route (assuming that costs less). Or he could get both of them, leaving his marines to be like glass cannons.
An exploit I could see would be using the orders to track aliens without MT. A possible fix could be that the order only lasts for XX seconds.
And then they made Supcomm. Which is giant battles to the max and huge economies, much much less micro, more about the mix of units.
It's not the microing of resource capturers, it's the micro of units in general. Sure it adds that giant layer of depth and skill, but that's only a factor as you move into the more professional groups, and each of these RTs games are done 1v1. Yes, it does in fact take huge amounts of skill to micro your snipers and tanks while still outputting units in CoH, but that doesn't change the reliance on good macro or strategic deployment and flanking maneuvers.
My belief is make commanding accessible yet deep. I agree as well something should be added. I just feel that individual unit micro is not the way. We want to allow better commanders to have an advantage, but not cripple newer players.
I guess we should also define what is a "better" commander. RTS games tend to allow combinations of macro and micro ability (see StarCraft and the varied styles of the pros), but for NS, which is a RTS/FPS blend, we can't go by actions per minute or click accuracy. I would say it's more important that a commander has strategic ability and leave the twitch fingers to the men on the ground.
Have any suggestions on what could add depth to the commander role? While I don't think adding unit micro would cripple not so good commanders, I certainly see the downsides to it. The problem that I have is I just can't think of any way for "better commands to have an advantage" yet not have some twitched-based-micro-heavy element in the game.
Also, about commanders having strategic ability: do you agree or disagree with me when I say "commanders don't really control the team's strategy -- the team controls their own strategy -- so when a commander is tasked with the 'strategy' role it can be frustrating or boring for the commander since everyone else is contributing and making calls -- calls the commander should be making."
I was hoping to see a system in NS2 that realizes the commander isn't the strategy-god and instead focuses the role on supporting and helping the marines.
I would tend to disagree. While it is true that the commander often times has less control and there's the beautiful free will of the Marines to go run amok, it doesn't remove the fact that the commander is, at least in theory, the strategizer and organizer. I think I made up a word there....
Anyways. I do realize that on many cases the players in the field make calls, sometimes completely disregarding the commander. However, I have found that the better commanders not only accommodate but still manage to organize the team to perform what they want. In these cases, the team performs even better. Some would argue that the better commander is one who controls and molds the team, and their continued success will put them in the commander's chair more often. Thus, with a good commander, people learn to follow the commander's orders without question (or little questioning) since it has worked out before. The counter argument usually puts forward that it's hard to gauge how much of an influence the commander has, and the necessity to prove oneself worthy of the command position is a flaw.
In some respects I'd say these conflicting issues can be a benefit. The weak commander can learn and is supported by the Marines in the field. Sure they're probably more disorganized unless a field player organizes them, but you're not completely crippled by the weak player in the chair. Plus, if they're a total screwup, there's the ejection button. On the other hand, better leaders can build their team up and move them efficiently, providing a stronger play from the same players.
I'm not saying this system is perfect, but it is a nice upshoot of the current implementation where the commander supports and can potentially manage the team instead of hinging success on one position.
I'd also like to point out that you might be confusing tactics and strategy. While the commander has control over the strategy (assuming the commander is taking a leading role and not just the weapon dropper), the players in the field have much more control over the tactics. See this article from someone more articulate than I, see second paragraph: <a href="http://nslearn.readyroom.org/?doc=TheoryCommanding.php" target="_blank">http://nslearn.readyroom.org/?doc=TheoryCommanding.php</a>
In short, I think that the commander should give the strategy, but the game should not hinge on if you have a leader commander. Thus, not the "strategy-god" as you put it.
It would be naïve to not take this in consideration when designing the game, and as such including these high intensity micro tasks is actually vital if we wish to keep any player hooked to commanding in the meta game for any longer period of time.
As the situation stands right now, this is exactly what has happened: most "strategies" have either already been decided on before the game, or quite simply the game has evolved far enough as to isolate the "one and only" strategy to such an extent that commanding now mostly is point and click medpacks, and following set research paths.
Finally, I see no reason to suspect that by adding high intensity tasks any possible strategizer role would be denied the commander. Primarily because the fps role of the rest of the team is always involving enough to 'counter' this. Secondarily because any ideal task to add to the arsenal of the commander for this purpose would, alone or combined with other such tasks, always stay out of reach of complete mastery. This would make any additional benifit of executing these tasks come with an exponential raise in difficulty. Be better - gain a moderate bonus. Be 'normal' - you can still perform the basic tasks and play the game as intended.
I agree that NS2 needs to have more emphasis on the RTS side of the FPS/RTS hybrid. To add to what many others have so eloquently put, I would put down that I support seeing a genuine tech tree on the alien side (meaning interlinking nodes, such descendant nodes having more than one prerequisite) and have it expanded with new extensions onto that existing technology.
There have been many I&S topics before about the need to increase strategical variation and gameplay depth, but the focus on micromanagement <i>specifically</i> is an interesting perspective indeed.
- unlock, select, & execute a individual's powers
- tech invested in "spells"
- tech tree branches
- structure placement (marine only?*)
- supply drops aka spam (personally hate this one <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />)
- scans & other "spells"
- relaying information to the marine
- map manipulation/control
- 'robot/creature' NPC manipulation/control
- way point bonus
- assisted aiming
Hmm, looking at that list, am I confusing some macro with micro? If I have, I apologize, my hopes for NS2 may just be in a different focus, so I need to try to be more understanding and remember that micro can be fun for others, even if I find its vaseline slick handle not my cracked cup o'tea <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was more referring to the fact that you don't want to force the commander to stick around for longer periods of time. Taking control over a grenade for 3 seconds is already a relatively long period of time that stops the comm from doing any other pieces of micro. Of course you can have such elements, but you'll have to be careful with them. Too much of stuff like and the commanding loses the micro flow or whatever you want to call it.