Railgun
aNytiMe
Join Date: 2008-03-31 Member: 64007Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2008-03-31 Member: 64007Members, Constellation
<u><b>DISCLAIMER: THIS IS NOT A DISCUSSION ON A SUPER SNIPER WEAPON. IT IS A SUGGESTION FOR A SINGLE SHOT ALTERNATE FIRE MODE ON THE HMG WHICH IS GOING TO DEAL MORE DAMAGE, BUT IN THE REASONABLE SENSE FOR IT TO NOT BECOME A "PRIMARY" SNIPER WEAPON.</b></u>
I saw this mentioned on the forum before somewhere and I really liked this idea.
Add a rail/coil gun to the HMG as the alternate firing mode.
Why:
- Because some form of a sniper rifle needs to be in this game, but since most combat occurs in very close quarters, a specialized rifle would be useless and there is no better weapon to pair it with.
- Very original concept, no game ever paired a heavy machine gun and a sniper rifle into the same weapon ever before. I think its about time.
- No need to make it overpowered 1shot kill head shot nuke firing weapon since you still have a primary mode machine gun to work with
Science would go something like this:
Cartridges for the HMG come with their own power sources, the cells can be used as power supplies and the projectiles can be discarded inside of the weapon. The gun has two modes of fire, a relatively low-power mode where both gunpowder and magnetic coils are utilized in order to drive a .50cal slug at moderate speeds and a high-power mode where the gun draws power from 10 cartridge energy cells, discarding 10 projectiles in the process. It takes some time to cool down the barrel to an acceptable temperature. In an interesting spin, any alien killed by this weapon should die 2 to 3 seconds after it is dealt fatal damage, this can be attributed to low stopping power. Would make it interesting/dangerous to use against skulks in close quarters. Projectiles travel through aliens and leave pulsating, glowing imprints in objects/architecture.
The bullet does scaled damage to life forms. It can kill a non-defense upgrade skulk in one hit, but it takes 2 to kill a carapace/regeneration/etc.. skulk. It does the same damage to fades as a shotgun does providing that all pellets hit, but has longer cooldown. Lerks are 2 hits. Onos doesn't take a lot of damage to armor, but takes a lot of damage to health.
I saw this mentioned on the forum before somewhere and I really liked this idea.
Add a rail/coil gun to the HMG as the alternate firing mode.
Why:
- Because some form of a sniper rifle needs to be in this game, but since most combat occurs in very close quarters, a specialized rifle would be useless and there is no better weapon to pair it with.
- Very original concept, no game ever paired a heavy machine gun and a sniper rifle into the same weapon ever before. I think its about time.
- No need to make it overpowered 1shot kill head shot nuke firing weapon since you still have a primary mode machine gun to work with
Science would go something like this:
Cartridges for the HMG come with their own power sources, the cells can be used as power supplies and the projectiles can be discarded inside of the weapon. The gun has two modes of fire, a relatively low-power mode where both gunpowder and magnetic coils are utilized in order to drive a .50cal slug at moderate speeds and a high-power mode where the gun draws power from 10 cartridge energy cells, discarding 10 projectiles in the process. It takes some time to cool down the barrel to an acceptable temperature. In an interesting spin, any alien killed by this weapon should die 2 to 3 seconds after it is dealt fatal damage, this can be attributed to low stopping power. Would make it interesting/dangerous to use against skulks in close quarters. Projectiles travel through aliens and leave pulsating, glowing imprints in objects/architecture.
The bullet does scaled damage to life forms. It can kill a non-defense upgrade skulk in one hit, but it takes 2 to kill a carapace/regeneration/etc.. skulk. It does the same damage to fades as a shotgun does providing that all pellets hit, but has longer cooldown. Lerks are 2 hits. Onos doesn't take a lot of damage to armor, but takes a lot of damage to health.
Comments
Why? Well heres my opinion
1. It leans toward individual skill rather than good teamwork, once gamers get the hang of high powered single shot weapons the emphasis is placed on aim, and not teamwork.
2. practicality in map settings. Grenade explosions can viably be contained by a strong hull... but high-powered ultra-high velocity railgun rounds sound like they would puncture a hole through a ships hull like a hot knife through butter.
3. There would be no point being an onos
4. Aliens are close attack specialists... they have enough range to contend with already
dont mean to sound like im flaming but yeah, NO RAILGUNS even if they are underslung.
Maybe under normal circumstances. This isn't exactly a sniper rifle or a railgun, but a magnetically-accelerated firearm.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why? Well heres my opinion
1. It leans toward individual skill rather than good teamwork, once gamers get the hang of high powered single shot weapons the emphasis is placed on aim, and not teamwork.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So place emphasis on a crutch rather than skill? Personal skill at no point compromises teamwork.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2. practicality in map settings. Grenade explosions can viably be contained by a strong hull... but high-powered ultra-high velocity railgun rounds sound like they would puncture a hole through a ships hull like a hot knife through butter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It doesn't have to be powerful enough to pierce modern tank armor. If it isn't powerful enough to pierce modern tank armor, it isn't powerful enough to pierce the walls of a huge, highly expensive space ship which is shielded from micrometeorites.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3. There would be no point being an onos<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Easy solution: Don't make it overpowered. Like I said, since this is a secondary fire mode, you don't have to make it do insane amounts of damage. In fact, make it do less damage then the main fire mode per minute.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->4. Aliens are close attack specialists... they have enough range to contend with already<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pistols work under the same principal. This principal works and I would like to see more of it in NS2.
Also, LMGs were pin-point accurate at first, spread was added to help casual players aim at skulks close range. Making marines long-range combatants is what should be one of the aims of NS2.
The pistol is all the sniper rifle you need. Due to the enclosed environment of the ship there are very limited opportunities to effectively use a sniper rifle. There just aren't that many big rooms.
Why add it to the HMG when you all ready have a secondary that fills the long distance need?
Why add it to the HMG when you all ready have a secondary that fills the long distance need?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hoping for various pistols to be purchasable just like primary weapons. <- If that is true, your argument sucks.
Regardless of the fact that this is pulled out of thin air, having the ability to purchase more pistols doesn't affect the argument that the base pistol is enough like a sniper rifle for NS. If you choose a different pistol, that's your prerogative; it doesn't mean the other options don't exist.
It is pulled out of thin air, but so is your speculation that the NS1 pistol is going to be ported over into NS2. I am going to concede this point in the argument for both of us.
But I would like to know the reasoning behind your logic. I don't understand how you can claim that one <u>accurate weapon</u> is enough for a game. By an extension, one automatic weapon is enough for a game.
The only thing accurate weapons have to share is their accuracy. The only thing automatic weapons have to share is the automatic function. The weapons can still be significantly different when a little creativity is applied.
I definitely agree with this, but I think the way the pistol fits makes it pretty hard to add in another accuracy weapon that isn't redundant, useless, or overpowered.
Sniper rifle/railgun characteristics beyond high accuracy that differ from the pistol: High Damage(debatable), Slow Fire Rate, Scope.
A scope would be pretty useless on most NS maps, and the devs have said they aren't adding outdoor maps this release so that's not likely to change.
For high damage I'd expect (for the sake of argument) that a single shot should kill a skulk/lerk and not a Fade/onos so it should do around 200 damage(the current vanilla output of the pistol)
Regarding slow fire, we want this weapon to be a primary but be a support weapon/have some weakness requiring teamwork to use. Slow rate of fire could be this, but you've just given comms the ability to drop a pre 2.0 pistol script weapon. This plays havok with balance since it would only take 2 or 3 to kill a fade instantly even at a distance. The same amount of shotguns can kill fades of course, but only at close range making the aiming much harder.
Overall you'd be decreasing the skill level it takes to play marines by adding a sniper rifle/railgun since, killing fades/onos would take less aim.
Let's say this weapon does weapon does severely reduced damage to fades and onos, like a 1/3. You're still taking skill out of aiming at lerks and skulks since you only have to hit once instead of continuously track.
So let's reduce the damage further, so it takes two shots and increase the fire rate. You now have a shotgun that can pick lerks and skulks from vents, but it useless against higher lifeforms. I think the shotgun is available early enough that this would be a redundant weapon, but maybe that's the kind of weapon you were thinking of.
I wholeheartedly agree with this statement.
<!--sizeo:6--><span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->BUT<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> (there is a but) I am not suggesting the addition of a new weapon. I am suggesting the addition of a new fire mode for the HMG. There is a difference between adding a new weapon and adding an alternate fire mode for a heavy weapon.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sniper rifle/railgun characteristics beyond high accuracy that differ from the pistol: High Damage(debatable), Slow Fire Rate, Scope.
A scope would be pretty useless on most NS maps, and the devs have said they aren't adding outdoor maps this release so that's not likely to change.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What about ammo expenditure, splash damage, damage type, (to life forms/structures etc.. HMGs do deal half damage to structures so this wouldn't be too radical of an idea) post-fire effects on the victim(s) and the wielder and the simple premise that it is a secondary function of a weapon. Thats to name a few off the top of my head.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For high damage I'd expect (for the sake of argument) that a single shot should kill a skulk/lerk and not a Fade/onos so it should do around 200 damage(the current vanilla output of the pistol)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We would want a single shot to kill a skulk and a lerk if it did not have an already kick ass weapon attached to it. If it did not it would be a worthless weapon. However, it does have a kick ass heavy weapon attached to it, therefore it does not need it to do insane amounts of damage.
Allow me to elaborate on the damage system to avoid nonconstructive speculation:
It will deal 100 damage to small aliens (skulk, lerk, gorge), and alien will die 2 seconds after being hit. As soon as an alien is hit with the weapon, it starts regenerating health. If a skulk doesn't have carapace or it can't regenerate more than 10 hp, with the aid of a hive, gorge spray or regeneration upgrade, skulk will die in one hit.
The weapon should have a 2 second cooldown time, so it does 50 damage/second to small aliens. The primary fire mode does 200 damage/second. That sounds entirely fair to me.
To fades it should do 150 damage and have a cooldown time of 2 seconds, that brings it up to 75 damage/second. Sounds fair to me considering the damage output of primary fire mode.
It should do 200 damage to onii, bringing it up to 100 damage/second. At this point, no ammo is wasted so it is at least ammo efficient vs onii, although not time efficient. You'd use it long range to conserve ammo, but when the onos gets close enough for you not to miss any bullets, machine gun time.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Regarding slow fire, we want this weapon to be a primary but be a support weapon/have some weakness requiring teamwork to use. Slow rate of fire could be this, but you've just given comms the ability to drop a pre 2.0 pistol script weapon. This plays havok with balance since it would only take 2 or 3 to kill a fade instantly even at a distance. The same amount of shotguns can kill fades of course, but only at close range making the aiming much harder.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A paragraph that takes speculation and turns it into a science. Must be ignored due to rules of decency.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Overall you'd be decreasing the skill level it takes to play marines by adding a sniper rifle/railgun since, killing fades/onos would take less aim.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Less tracking aim (keeping your cursor over an alien) and more snap aim. It doesn't decrease the skill required to play a marine, only a slightly different type of motor skill.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Let's say this weapon does weapon does severely reduced damage to fades and onos, like a 1/3. You're still taking skill out of aiming at lerks and skulks since you only have to hit once instead of continuously track.
So let's reduce the damage further, so it takes two shots and increase the fire rate. You now have a shotgun that can pick lerks and skulks from vents, but it useless against higher lifeforms. I think the shotgun is available early enough that this would be a redundant weapon, but maybe that's the kind of weapon you were thinking of.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Speculation. Speculation lost America vast sums of money. Jesus hates you.
<!--quoteo(post=1677339:date=May 1 2008, 04:55 PM:name=sherpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(sherpa @ May 1 2008, 04:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1677339"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The NS forum is the forum of the mature pessimist; so when you talk about headshots, rail guns and have upper case letters in the middle of your time, get ready to be told to GET OUT OF MY FORUM.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A) I jokingly talked about railguns, knowing that any speculation associated with them is pseudoscience
B) Your reading comprehension in the general text area of headshots is severely lacking.
C) It is more of a my forum than your forum because I live in a superior country compared to your insignificant European pit hole. Now go back to where you came from before I start hacking at your precious little gas pipeline. All America has to do to wreck stuff in Europe is to pull out its armed forces and cut funding for all of the bases we have in your general vicinity. That would reduce European coffers by roughly 50%. Also, good luck fending off the hordes of invincible bushmen, invincible to your military technology you bought from us several decades ago. God bless America.
<!--sizeo:6--><span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->BUT<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> (there is a but) I am not suggesting the addition of a new weapon. I am suggesting the addition of a new fire mode for the HMG. There is a difference between adding a new weapon and adding an alternate fire mode for a heavy weapon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was talking about the inclusion of another accuracy weapon in general, I don't think it really matters if it is a secondary fire/primary fire/secodnary slot whatever.
<!--quoteo(post=1677350:date=May 1 2008, 02:58 PM:name=aNytiMe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aNytiMe @ May 1 2008, 02:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1677350"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What about ammo expenditure, splash damage, damage type, (to life forms/structures etc.. HMGs do deal half damage to structures so this wouldn't be too radical of an idea) post-fire effects on the victim(s) and the wielder<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I did talk about damage type a bit. I'll readily admit it wasn't as creative as some of the examples you used. I think you should put forward some examples of a good(using the criteria of not redundant, useless, or overpowered) railgun style weapons using some of these characteristics. They sound like good topics for discussion.
<!--quoteo(post=1677350:date=May 1 2008, 02:58 PM:name=aNytiMe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aNytiMe @ May 1 2008, 02:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1677350"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We would want a single shot to kill a skulk and a lerk if it did not have an already kick ass weapon attached to it. If it did not it would be a worthless weapon. However, it does have a kick ass heavy weapon attached to it, therefore it does not need it to do insane amounts of damage.
Allow me to elaborate on the damage system to avoid nonconstructive speculation:
It will deal 100 damage to small aliens (skulk, lerk, gorge), and alien will die 2 seconds after being hit. As soon as an alien is hit with the weapon, it starts regenerating health. If a skulk doesn't have carapace or it can't regenerate more than 10 hp, with the aid of a hive, gorge spray or regeneration upgrade, skulk will die in one hit.
The weapon should have a 2 second cooldown time, so it does 50 damage/second to small aliens. The primary fire mode does 200 damage/second. That sounds entirely fair to me.
To fades it should do 150 damage and have a cooldown time of 2 seconds, that brings it up to 75 damage/second. Sounds fair to me considering the damage output of primary fire mode.
It should do 200 damage to onii, bringing it up to 100 damage/second. At this point, no ammo is wasted so it is at least ammo efficient vs onii, although not time efficient. You'd use it long range to conserve ammo, but when the onos gets close enough for you not to miss any bullets, machine gun time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is this hit once and then damage over time? It sounds like it since the next paragraph talks about snap aim. Sure HMG is 200 Damage per second, but it's not automatic. The HMG has such a large cone of fire so that you're not going to be doing 200 dmg a second to onos and especially not fades unless they're near you and, in the case of the fade, not moving. If lifeforms become more disposable then maybe I could see this going in. It sounds like a noob cannon honestly.
<!--quoteo(post=1677350:date=May 1 2008, 02:58 PM:name=aNytiMe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aNytiMe @ May 1 2008, 02:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1677350"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Less tracking aim (keeping your cursor over an alien) and more snap aim. It doesn't decrease the skill required to play a marine, only a slightly different type of motor skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except you need snap aim now. This just removes the tracking aim.
<!--quoteo(post=1677350:date=May 1 2008, 02:58 PM:name=aNytiMe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aNytiMe @ May 1 2008, 02:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1677350"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Speculation. Speculation lost America vast sums of money. Jesus hates you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is an internet forum for a game that isn't released yet. Everything is speculation. I base my "speculation" on what is in NS1 and what we have been told is in NS2. Apparently I went in a different direction with my sniper rifle than you wanted, but you hadn't provided any examples of what you meant so I guessed.
So it doesn't matter whether you actually have a weapon capable of doing damage or a welder as an alternate fire mode? I disagree.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I did talk about damage type a bit. I'll readily admit it wasn't as creative as some of the examples you used. I think you should put forward some examples of a good(using the criteria of not redundant, useless, or overpowered) railgun style weapons using some of these characteristics. They sound like good topics for discussion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How about you move to the next step and just admit that you aren't offering any constructive criticism, just arguing for the sake of argument.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is this hit once and then damage over time? It sounds like it since the next paragraph talks about snap aim. Sure HMG is 200 Damage per second, but it's not automatic. The HMG has such a large cone of fire so that you're not going to be doing 200 dmg a second to onos and especially not fades unless they're near you and, in the case of the fade, not moving. If lifeforms become more disposable then maybe I could see this going in. It sounds like a noob cannon honestly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You will do roughly 200 damage per second to an onos if you are somewhat close and not aiming in the opposite direction. The other modes do decreased damage because yes, you are not going to realistically get 200 damage per second out of the HMG, but the closer you are, the less sense it makes to use the sniper function.
The "instant" damage is only relevant to killing aliens which you can kill in a small amount of hits, skulks and lerks. Fades will take a large amount of hits and won't see a difference between being hit over time or being hit instantly but with a long cooldown.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Except you need snap aim now. This just removes the tracking aim.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't really need snap aim in NS. Weapons do damage over time and there is no accuracy modifiers which make you miss all bullets after the very important initial few. You just have to get the mouse cursor over the alien in a decent time frame (if you point your mouse at someone's hitbox a nanosecond faster than someone else, you don't win in this game) and lock onto it for a second or so.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is an internet forum for a game that isn't released yet. Everything is speculation. I base my "speculation" on what is in NS1 and what we have been told is in NS2. Apparently I went in a different direction with my sniper rifle than you wanted, but you hadn't provided any examples of what you meant so I guessed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't have to, nor should you speculate. It is perfectly reasonable to hold discussion without going into speculation. Just keep in mind the extremely, extremely basic gameplay of natural selection in mind. E.g. a balanced resource system, a marine commander mode, a FPS mode and an alien melee user caste system. I have explained the weapon in NS terms to you solely because you are arguing in NS terms with me. This weapons fits perfectly and is usable in NS vanilla in the way that I explained. All I can say about what it should do in NS2 is just shoot accurate projectiles which kill free basic alien life forms in one hit and are less efficient damage wise than the primary HMG function.
With that in mind, an alternate fire mode that only reaches 100 dps against Oni (which have 2k HP and are the only targets large enough that almost all your normal shots will actually hit), and does less vs everything else, is actually quite weak. Not that that says anything about the underlying concept, but at the very least you'll have to adjust some numbers there.
I said you have some creative ideas that could be expanded upon. That is constructive criticism.
<!--quoteo(post=1677363:date=May 1 2008, 03:53 PM:name=aNytiMe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aNytiMe @ May 1 2008, 03:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1677363"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You will do roughly 200 damage per second to an onos if you are somewhat close and not aiming in the opposite direction. The other modes do decreased damage because yes, you are not going to realistically get 200 damage per second out of the HMG, but the closer you are, the less sense it makes to use the sniper function.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem I am trying to illustrate is you'd be getting high damage output from the HMG without tracking at a distance.
<!--quoteo(post=1677363:date=May 1 2008, 03:53 PM:name=aNytiMe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aNytiMe @ May 1 2008, 03:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1677363"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The "instant" damage is only relevant to killing aliens which you can kill in a small amount of hits, skulks and lerks. Fades will take a large amount of hits and won't see a difference between being hit over time or being hit instantly but with a long cooldown.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think I would, especially if those hits were from far away by 2 or 3 marines.
<!--quoteo(post=1677363:date=May 1 2008, 03:53 PM:name=aNytiMe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aNytiMe @ May 1 2008, 03:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1677363"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You don't really need snap aim in NS. Weapons do damage over time and there is no accuracy modifiers which make you miss all bullets after the very important initial few. You just have to get the mouse cursor over the alien in a decent time frame (if you point your mouse at someone's hitbox a nanosecond faster than someone else, you don't win in this game) and lock onto it for a second or so.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd say you need good snap aim to take out ambushing skulks, blinking fades, etcetera. I still don't think you're gaining anything by removing tracking aim.
<!--quoteo(post=1677363:date=May 1 2008, 03:53 PM:name=aNytiMe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aNytiMe @ May 1 2008, 03:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1677363"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You don't have to, nor should you speculate. It is perfectly reasonable to hold discussion without going into speculation. Just keep in mind the extremely, extremely basic gameplay of natural selection in mind. E.g. a balanced resource system, a marine commander mode, a FPS mode and an alien melee user caste system. I have explained the weapon in NS terms to you solely because you are arguing in NS terms with me. This weapons fits perfectly and is usable in NS vanilla in the way that I explained. All I can say about what it should do in NS2 is just shoot accurate projectiles which kill free basic alien life forms in one hit and are less efficient damage wise than the primary HMG function.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think I've made any outrageous assumptions. If the HMG is meant to be a one-weapon-suits-all then I'm wrong. However that would be a major departure from NS trends of giving weapons weaknesses(such as the half dmg to structures, increasing cone of fire) to require support. If you want to dismiss all criticism by labeling it "speculation" you might as well not have "speculated" about adding a railgun since any further discussion interferes with your perfect vision.
Fair enough. Do you have any suggestions as to how this idea <i>might</i> work?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem I am trying to illustrate is you'd be getting high damage output from the HMG without tracking at a distance.
I'd say you need good snap aim to take out ambushing skulks, blinking fades, etcetera. I still don't think you're gaining anything by removing tracking aim.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you arguing that sniper rifles take less skill than automatic weapons with cones of spread? If so, these are red herring statements.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think I would, especially if those hits were from far away by 2 or 3 marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't get hit from far away, problem solved. Its not like the aliens should be able to have equal footing at range. If 3 or 4 marines rail you point blank, you'll still have enough hp to do some damage, and if you don't want to, get some skulks in to take care of the now defenseless marines. (You shouldn't be able to put the weapon away while the barrel is red hot)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think I've made any outrageous assumptions. If the HMG is meant to be a one-weapon-suits-all then I'm wrong. However that would be a major departure from NS trends of giving weapons weaknesses(such as the half dmg to structures, increasing cone of fire) to require support.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The weakness of using the rail gun is the cooldown after firing and the decreased possible damage output. You can look at it this way: after firing the railgun, you need someone to defend you for 3 seconds.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you want to dismiss all criticism by labeling it "speculation" you might as well not have "speculated" about adding a railgun since any further discussion interferes with your perfect vision.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Far from all criticism is speculation. You have speculated how much damage and what effects you think it'd deal and I didn't agree with it, so I stated that a different method can be easily used to fairly implement the fire mode in NS terms. Suggesting the addition of a railgun is not speculation, it is a suggestion. 2 unrelated items.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Note -- the NS1 HMG actually deals around 320 damage per second, not 200. Yes, I know the "official manual" lists it at 200, but the "official manual" isn't very accurate on a lot of things.
With that in mind, an alternate fire mode that only reaches 100 dps against Oni (which have 2k HP and are the only targets large enough that almost all your normal shots will actually hit), and does less vs everything else, is actually quite weak. Not that that says anything about the underlying concept, but at the very least you'll have to adjust some numbers there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess it fires faster than 10 shots/second. I would also like to know whether FPS has any bearing on fire rate in the Source engine too. I still think that the numbers I have used are fair considering the spray cone of the HMG, this makes it more fair. The point is, it can work in NS without destroying any balance.
We must thank you for your constructive input. Come again.
I would only agree to a a sniper style high accuracy weapon if it had a high aim wobble, especially whilst moving but even when still. It shoudl require players to camp and steady their aim. an since hanging in one place in ns isnt often a good idea the value of such a weapon seems limited
Hmm, this is a interesting idea right here. Take that idea, have it have the same accuracy and range as the primary fire, and you have an excellent idea to look into for a secondary fire for the hmg.
I would only agree to a a sniper style high accuracy weapon if it had a high aim wobble, especially whilst moving but even when still. It shoudl require players to camp and steady their aim. an since hanging in one place in ns isnt often a good idea the value of such a weapon seems limited<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What if you had a really cool helmet with an interface which always told you where the barrel of your gun was pointing? And what if you were highly trained with near perfect hand-eye coordination and could keep the crosshairs in your focus at all times? Its not like the accuracy of the gun diminishes just because you are moving.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->what does this bring to the game? overpowered all in one gun?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nope, that doesn't make any sense. Not after I spent like 30 minutes on doing a thought experiment trying to balance the gun into NS and succeeding and then typing it out in great detail.
just because you say ns needs a sniper rifle, doesn't justify whether it does or not.
all you've typed is about talking your gun up to make it sound awesome, but you haven't presented any balancing, or what it brings to the game in your original post.
this gun would kill anything in seconds - you rail a far away target, and as it approaches you spray it with the hmg mode and its dead.
or the other way around - you spray to weaken and then insta gib it with the rail.
if thats not overpowered than i'm the queen of england.
Even though I don't agree with rail guns on a space ship whose hull integrity would be important to everyone's survival, IMHO, NS1 already had a sniper rifle, we just called it a pistol, and it was definitely shot faster than any sniper rifle in any other game I have played but for less damage per shot but if all shots hit (which was sometimes possible) it was effectively like a headshot in most other FPS games.
I disagree, NS2 does need a sniper rifle and the pistol needs to change from that role, I would suggest the LMG in a secondary fire mode would make for a more appropriate way to fill that role and not be overpowered. I am pretty sure this has been discussed before in other threads.
As far as this rail gun idea goes though, as a secondary mode or add on to the HMG, well, I just don't like it. IMHO, rail guns have their place in space ship to space ship combat, but not within the living space of the ship/bio-dome. The idea as presented is over powered and silly.
<!--quoteo(post=1677364:date=May 1 2008, 08:15 PM:name=Cxwf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cxwf @ May 1 2008, 08:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1677364"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Note -- the NS1 HMG actually deals around 320 damage per second, not 200. Yes, I know the "official manual" lists it at 200, but the "official manual" isn't very accurate on a lot of things.
With that in mind, an alternate fire mode that only reaches 100 dps against Oni (which have 2k HP and are the only targets large enough that almost all your normal shots will actually hit), and does less vs everything else, is actually quite weak. Not that that says anything about the underlying concept, but at the very least you'll have to adjust some numbers there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
More like slightly underpowered, but can be balanced to be perfect.
Science:
If micrometeorites can't penetrate hulls, personal weapons can be made to not penetrate hulls.
Recap from page1:
If you inserted a sniper rifle into this game, you'd be presented with a choice. You could make it
A) Underpowered and worthless. It'd be like a weaker version of an unforgiving LMG at best.
B) Overpowered one shot kills.
What sets my idea apart from any other sniper rifle ideas is that you can add in a nerfed version of a rail gun which is not obsolete simply because it has a kick-ass alternate fire mode attached to it.
I thought of a hatch between the SMG and the HMG, but with a secondary mode of fire that shoots a single and powerful blast at a lower rate of fire. Doing so initially decreases the ammunition in the magazine.
I basically got this idea from Starship Troopers and Unreal 2. In unreal 2 the primary assault rifle fired something like an SMG, with an alternate fire that had a shotgun spread at a lower rate of fire that ate 10 rounds out of the magazine instead of 1. In starship troopers, their assault rifle fired a heavy slug under the rifle.
In game I imagine something looking like a bulkier assault rifle. It has a 100 round magazine, instead of the 50 rnd in the assault rifle. It has the same power as the assault rifle and is upgraded just the same. The alternate fire shoots a single large slug, but how this is achieved is up for grabs. I vote for either a secondary ammunition slot of lets say 5 rounds, 25 extra. It does damage inequivalent of 25 assault rifle rounds, and has a delay of 1 second after firing before either ammunition type could be fired again. Or, the assault rifle's secondary fire would consume 15 rounds from the total 100 rounds, and I vote that this option has a spread type shot like the shotgun, but much more accurate, making it less of a sniper but still provides the benefit of power.
The benefit of this is:
1. Variety: Provides a simple weapon to add to the mix which makes being a marine a different experience from the past, which is a good thing.
2. Non-dedicated sniper weapon. NS isn't the type of a game for a sniper, but this can at least add a limited version which at least adds the element of sniping. When you got an AFK fade, you don't really want the guy to jump back on the computer after a few minutes of spraying, a nice headshot or two would be nice to deal some serious damage when the marine is presented with an opportunity.
3. It's a weapon that fits into the game, and it provides more strategy. You could use resources to upgrade your SMGs, get your guys heavies/jetpacks, or get them HMGs/GLs. This adds a new element, maybe get everyone shotguns and these hybrids and jetpacks, allowing for more upgrades or give your guys weapons faster.
In my opinion... if all they have going for new weapons is a flamethrower, why not at least try the concept?
Why argue to have a gun added and then when someone gives you a negative responce, describe how it would be so weak and inferior it would be useless? I like the idea of this gun and as to whether it is a sniper rifle I do not understand the argument, If by whether it is a sniper rifle you mean it is only useful in small area then I do not a agree because to use a bad example. In CS 1.6 the AWP was used in short range, even though it was a sniper rifle, this is becasue it did good damage for 1 shot.
As for whether it is perfectly accurate then why not have a gun that is perfectly accurate? Why do the Marines go from their original that was perfectly accurate to having better guns that are less accurate?
This is a huge space ship that is built to withstand traveling through atmospheres it wouldnt necesseraly be puntured with one shot from small personal railgun.
I also do not agree with it not being able to kill a skulk if it cant kill a skulk in one shot and has a VERY slow rate of fire, why even use it, use an LMG. I think that the Railgun should do Enough damage to kill a skulk easily but have a very long reload time so that late game when you do have a rail gun a skulk is not a big enough target to actualy be worth having a rail gun, because it is overkill.
****The railgun could be designed primarily as a lerk and fade wepon, It could be made ballenced by reducing its damage to Onos, and structures because of its very small blast diameter meaning that the onos had a long hole all the way through it but the likely hood of it hitting anything important is small.
Weakness' of wepon.
- Multiple skulks would easily overpower because one shot against a skulk is overkill and Very slow rate of fire would give time for skulks to kill.
- Weak against structures and Onos
- Very slow rate of fire.
Strength's of wepon
- Long range and accurate
- Good anti Fade & Lerk
This gun would be useless in close range in the sense that there are so many other more forgiving weapons that are better than it at dealing more damage at close range. But that is its only weakness.
It will be able to kill a skulk in one hit, but only if that skulk doesn't have a defensive upgrade (regen/carapace) and then you can add some upgrade and counter upgrade which could let it kill skulks again in one hit (w3?) and another high-tier alien upgrade which would let the skulk survive one hit with red health. (carapace AND regen?)
If you think about it - this weapon is basically a variation of the NS1 pistol.
As for other fire modes for weapons which drain more than one energy cell/bullet, yes, I'm all for those. There really is quite some unexploited potential in this jurisdiction.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- <i>Because some form of a sniper rifle needs to be in this game</i>, but since most combat occurs in very close quarters, a specialized rifle would be useless and there is no better weapon to pair it with.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
why do it need to be in this game? becouse other games have one? why do NS2 need to be like all other 24/7 games?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Very original concept, no game ever paired a heavy machine gun and a sniper rifle into the same weapon ever before. I think its about time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
original: jes
and jes, no other game made this, a sniper on a HMG.
do you know why?
becouse its absolutly bull######, it whould break every single bit of the balance, OF ALL GAMES MADE SO FAR.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- No need to make it overpowered 1shot kill head shot nuke firing weapon since you still have a primary mode machine gun to work with<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so a 1 shot and 1 mg bullet?
__________
no. just no.
there is absolultly NO reason to add a sniper rifle to the game, eccept other game have one, and "NS2 NEED IT SO BAD!!!!11 ROFL!"
use pistol!
another point: have you played a official map? how theyre disigned? the biggest distance on a good, balanced map whould be max 50m.
..
<b>50m.</b>
WTF is a sniper doing here??!
I would only agree to a a sniper style high accuracy weapon if it had a high aim wobble, especially whilst moving but even when still. It shoudl require players to camp and steady their aim. an since hanging in one place in ns isnt often a good idea the value of such a weapon seems limited<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You usually fire them prone; most counter-snipes are so powerful that they can go through an engine block (I point directly at Halo for creating that myth); and on high-caliber, high powered sniper rifles the shockwave the round is dragging behind it is equally deadly (yes that's right, the shockwave can bust your skull like a watermelon even if the round misses) No many games are laughable in their blatant ignorance when it comes to firearms.
id Software: hey let's call magazines clips instead
Bungie Co.: hey let's have the master chief carry a <a href="http://www.military-heat.com/13/m82-m107-50-caliber-barrett-sniper-rifle/" target="_blank">Barrett .5 caliber sniper rifle</a> like it's a H&K mp5
(even if the master chief could get the shot off, it should be powerful enough take out the tree behind him or be used to disable vehicles)
Jess Cliffe (CS): hey let's allow you shuffle walk and fire a AWP at the same time
Jess Cliffe (CS): hey let's have you loose all inertia when you get shot
You could be original and <i>not</i> make another cartoony game. Not that they aren't fun, but CS and TF2 already exists as the dominate semi-realistic and completely unrealistic games on the Steam market.
As far as this topic though. I thought it has been said, multiple times. By one of the founders of UWE (Charlie Cleveland) and many of the people involved in the development of NS that sniper uber weapons were definite negatives for Natural-Selection. I suppose it's fair to ask if this policy is still true for NS2, as nobody has asked it explicitly until now.
So...? (requires a developer response, one of you four)
PS: I'd prefer a combine energy ball launcher attachment to this type of gun. Vaporized skulks FTW! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />