Realism changes
Lt_Hendrickson
Join Date: 2003-03-21 Member: 14761Members
Join Date: 2003-03-21 Member: 14761Members
There are certain things that I would really like to see go, and some of which I would assume are already planned to go. The problem with games can be gameply balance vs realism so obvious some things can't be done, like spooky dark lighting which can't be controlled. But here are a couple things.
-flying fades. The original fade blink was awesome, and useful, but of course EXTREMELY buggy. The solution was the fast flying blinking fade we all know today. Gameplay balance wise, it worked, but it was absolutly rediculous. Fades were practicully giant lerks. My suggestion would be to activate the blink ability and literaly disapear, remove hitboxes, model, ect and and be able to fly around the map while no-existing and then when you deactivate you reapear. Much like the original blink but instant. Movement from the fade point of view would still be moving extra fast and allowing flight, but instead of flying it would appear the species did infact 'blink'. And a second idea, rather than blinking with a purple spark (i believe this was the original animation) it could have a cool BAMPH like nitecralwer in the movie but wih bacteria flying everywhere in stead. Of course the class strength would have to be rebalanced but everything in the game is going to be rebalanced now.
-Onos climbing ladders. Nuff said about that. I would suggest allowing onos to have a normal animation and ability to walk over larger objects without the need of a ladder and for them to stand on their hind legs to reach and attack high objects. High objects wernt really a problem in the first game in most maps, but not all. In addition I would just say mappers should design their maps based around this limitation. Or with the more dynamic maps that might be available, make onos be able to knock down higher objects which would once again be a mapper responsiblity. Not giving onos the ability may give marines a safty height advantage if intended but higher onos stepping would give the onos advantage of being able to avoid low level obstacles altogether flank marines. Imagine a marine has to run up a ladder and when he gets to the top the onos just steps up instantly and kills him like a giant creature would in real life ( i used to hang out with dinosaurs in high school). Basically quit making onos climb ladders. It just silly. Fades don't have this problem, they blink, gorge, I dunno, make an animation.
-More ladder stuff, marines actually have a climb animation rather than float on ladders and can only shoot when they stop. You can't climb ladders with one hand. I see more and more reasons to do away with ladders altogether.
-minimun one second to swicth weopons. In addition to that it takes time in real life to put away your other weopon and draw your pistol out, it takes literally 0 seconds in ns basically continueing the pistol stream. 1 second might be too long but to get the idea play a battlefield game and see what a difference in gameplay hesitating to swith weopons can cause. It would give a skulk a tiny window to strike.
-pistols shoot to fast and hurt to much, either lower damage or slow fire rate down. There is something very wrong with a game where good players will walk around with their pistol out instead of machine gun as a norm. I would prefer keep the damage and lower fire rate and accuracy. There is something wrong with a sniper pistol anyways. Put a zoom in function on the rifle instead and allow more accurate firing while zoomed. The devs seamed to thing that it wouldnt fit in a game like ns but it fits PERFECTLY in a game like ns because it blindsides the player zooming in.
-the knife. Someone needs to explain to my why the knife does more damage than futuristic bullets while waviing it like its floppy. I'm all for the knife being super strong, but I would say SEVERLY lower attack rate and animate to be more of a hard stab motion rather than floppy flop motion. Its a knife, not a light saber. It requires physical force to drive the blade though an enemy. It would require a bit more skill to time a stab, but still be rather effective and less slash and prey.
-skulks run on walls and upsidedown. Their view should reflect this. Im kidding, we all know why thats a bad idea.
-flying fades. The original fade blink was awesome, and useful, but of course EXTREMELY buggy. The solution was the fast flying blinking fade we all know today. Gameplay balance wise, it worked, but it was absolutly rediculous. Fades were practicully giant lerks. My suggestion would be to activate the blink ability and literaly disapear, remove hitboxes, model, ect and and be able to fly around the map while no-existing and then when you deactivate you reapear. Much like the original blink but instant. Movement from the fade point of view would still be moving extra fast and allowing flight, but instead of flying it would appear the species did infact 'blink'. And a second idea, rather than blinking with a purple spark (i believe this was the original animation) it could have a cool BAMPH like nitecralwer in the movie but wih bacteria flying everywhere in stead. Of course the class strength would have to be rebalanced but everything in the game is going to be rebalanced now.
-Onos climbing ladders. Nuff said about that. I would suggest allowing onos to have a normal animation and ability to walk over larger objects without the need of a ladder and for them to stand on their hind legs to reach and attack high objects. High objects wernt really a problem in the first game in most maps, but not all. In addition I would just say mappers should design their maps based around this limitation. Or with the more dynamic maps that might be available, make onos be able to knock down higher objects which would once again be a mapper responsiblity. Not giving onos the ability may give marines a safty height advantage if intended but higher onos stepping would give the onos advantage of being able to avoid low level obstacles altogether flank marines. Imagine a marine has to run up a ladder and when he gets to the top the onos just steps up instantly and kills him like a giant creature would in real life ( i used to hang out with dinosaurs in high school). Basically quit making onos climb ladders. It just silly. Fades don't have this problem, they blink, gorge, I dunno, make an animation.
-More ladder stuff, marines actually have a climb animation rather than float on ladders and can only shoot when they stop. You can't climb ladders with one hand. I see more and more reasons to do away with ladders altogether.
-minimun one second to swicth weopons. In addition to that it takes time in real life to put away your other weopon and draw your pistol out, it takes literally 0 seconds in ns basically continueing the pistol stream. 1 second might be too long but to get the idea play a battlefield game and see what a difference in gameplay hesitating to swith weopons can cause. It would give a skulk a tiny window to strike.
-pistols shoot to fast and hurt to much, either lower damage or slow fire rate down. There is something very wrong with a game where good players will walk around with their pistol out instead of machine gun as a norm. I would prefer keep the damage and lower fire rate and accuracy. There is something wrong with a sniper pistol anyways. Put a zoom in function on the rifle instead and allow more accurate firing while zoomed. The devs seamed to thing that it wouldnt fit in a game like ns but it fits PERFECTLY in a game like ns because it blindsides the player zooming in.
-the knife. Someone needs to explain to my why the knife does more damage than futuristic bullets while waviing it like its floppy. I'm all for the knife being super strong, but I would say SEVERLY lower attack rate and animate to be more of a hard stab motion rather than floppy flop motion. Its a knife, not a light saber. It requires physical force to drive the blade though an enemy. It would require a bit more skill to time a stab, but still be rather effective and less slash and prey.
-skulks run on walls and upsidedown. Their view should reflect this. Im kidding, we all know why thats a bad idea.
Comments
First I think we need to know if fades are even going to be in NS #2, they may not. Secondly, if they do make a return into the next game, is the function of "blinking" supposed to be a teleportation (Star Trek) action, or a movement (faster speed) action? Can this be clarified yet? It may be useless to discuss this or try and give ideas if they are not going to use a fade and/or use blink, you never know...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Onos climbing ladders. Nuff said about that. I would suggest allowing onos to have a normal animation and ability to walk over larger objects without the need of a ladder and for them to stand on their hind legs to reach and attack high objects... ...In addition I would just say mappers should design their maps based around this limitation...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't know the marines built space stations for the aliens to have easy access inside and moving around...
Accessable ramps and wider areas for movement? Where have we heard this before? *cough* That's it, we should start an ONOS union, and if they don't create maps based on our needs well sue them. And in the state of California, WE WILL WIN!
Sorry, bad joke, but I tried to make a point. I think building space stations (occupied by humans) with gimped areas for an ONOS to move easier takes away from the feel of a human map. I can see areas where the aliens are based on a cave planet, so there are gradual ramps and large rock formations. If this rule applies then should the map maker simply put a ladder in the middle of nowhere so marines can "climb to the top of the rock easier"? It seems worse to me and it will make maps feel more generic.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-More ladder stuff, marines actually have a climb animation rather than float on ladders and can only shoot when they stop. You can't climb ladders with one hand. I see more and more reasons to do away with ladders altogether.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You make a great point with the climbing and shooting thing, but then there is the part where lerks and skulks would camp ladders since marines would be helpless on them. On some maps it would always end up as sort of a dead end since we would never make it up or down them, so then that part of the map becomes worthless. Good point, but how else can you get around it?
FYI, coming from someone who plays a gorge in 95% of games where I go aliens, this would easily become a "place 2 OCs here/X marks the spot" thing. Now the map is blocked until the marines get HMGs, or JPs, or sieges. Enjoy! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-pistols shoot to fast and hurt to much, either lower damage or slow fire rate down. There is something very wrong with a game where good players will walk around with their pistol out instead of machine gun as a norm.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A-f'in-men brother! A pistol is a backup weapon, not a primary.
*You make some great points, but I would hope to have some things clarified before continuing this one, because for all we know the knife isn't going to make a comeback, and fades won't blink anymore, or anything can be changed. It sounded like NS2 is an evolved game, with the marines having furthured their tactics and tech, while the aliens also evolved.
if you really think about it, if humans did build a space station that had artificial gravity, then all of the main corridors and walkways that lead to the critical areas would be wide and easily accessable, with no ladders whatsoever. why? because they would need to transport cargo, equipment, raw resources, and large amounts of personnel quickly. apart from monorails or conveyor belts, this would require trolleys, forklifts or small vehicles, and therefore they would need wide flat areas for such vehicles to pass, ramps instead of stairs, and lifts.
if you actually look at *most* of the maps, the way they are designed is pretty impractical, if not down right inefficient for the day to day workings of a space station. sure the mapper is thinking purely of gameplay when creating it, but i cant help but cringe at some parts.
<!--quoteo(post=1676515:date=Apr 22 2008, 04:25 AM:name=corpsman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(corpsman @ Apr 22 2008, 04:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676515"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A-f'in-men brother! A pistol is a backup weapon, not a primary.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hell yeah! if only 1 change is made in NS2 for the sake or realism, this needs to be it.
Back to the points:
- flying fades
- ladders
- pistols
All of this bugs me and have been posted about in threads specifically about these various topics in other threads, but suffice it to say, I agree, changes for the better that jar my suspension of disbelieve less would be welcome.
Flying Fades: The word Blink does suggest to me teleportation of a sorts, while the name of the lifeform and early descriptions of it ("It appeared to come out of the walls!") seem to suggest to me incorporeal state. The solution that comes to mind for me that would incorporate those two impressions would be use of a invisible (to others than the fade) portal gun, so it in practice it would look like the fade steps into a wall and comes out a wall somewhere else: there, you get trippy "Oh my gawd, they are in the walls!" effects and teleportation.
Ladders: If a marine were to stop, could they use one limb to shoot? Could a gorge being given climb walls but not necessarily cling to the ceiling be considered? Agree greatly that Onos should not necessarily be considered to be suited to a human made living enviroment, but anything considered to be of industrial scale ("The foreman says I have to get this shipping crate to the maintenance bay...") should be reasonable to find in human made maps and also accommodate the needs of a Onos life form - but Onos and ladders, ugh. I would so love to see the day when Onos get to be bad ass gate crashers, if its too small, just smash and bash your way in. Maps really do need to do more convincing that humans actually live (lived?) there and did all the usual human activities there to meet their needs and wants, so I agree the whole situation with regards to that suspension of disbelieve is just shot all to heck currently.
Pistols: Oh boy, personally, I think the whole Marine kit really needs a lot of considering NS1 a mulligan and just doing something better, both for gameplay and for suspension of disbelief.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First I think we need to know if fades are even going to be in NS #2, they may not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think fades being in NS2 is a pretty safe assumption. Having an open mind is good when it comes to making suggestions, such as "if there was no fade, the game could work like this...". Presenting it as an argument is self defeating. In reality, we know nothing about the game. Charlie could have changed the frontiersmen to actual frontiersmen and the kharaa to bears, beavers, and raccoons. So while we know nothing about the game we can make reasonable assumptions(some of which will be wrong) about what NS2 will be like.
Ok so its exactle the same except the fade is "invisible and invunerable".
Great idea lets make fades, whilst in their MOST COMMON STATE, invunerable and invincible.
Like this?
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2W7ThX9BMI"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2W7ThX9BMI" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
(in case the youtube tags are broken again -- like they appear to be -- <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2W7ThX9BMI" target="_blank">here's the link</a>)
I don't think you should be able to clip through world polys (that would be sloppy, buggy, and immersion breaking), but going through other players and placed structures would be absolutely kick-ass!
<!--quoteo(post=1676508:date=Apr 21 2008, 11:06 PM:name=Lt_Hendrickson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lt_Hendrickson @ Apr 21 2008, 11:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676508"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Onos climbing ladders. Nuff said about that. I would suggest allowing onos to have a normal animation and ability to walk over larger objects without the need of a ladder and for them to stand on their hind legs to reach and attack high objects. High objects wernt really a problem in the first game in most maps, but not all. In addition I would just say mappers should design their maps based around this limitation. Or with the more dynamic maps that might be available, make onos be able to knock down higher objects which would once again be a mapper responsiblity. Not giving onos the ability may give marines a saftyheight advantage if intended but higher onos stepping would give the onos advantage of being able to avoid low level obstacles altogether flank marines. Imagine a marine has to run up a ladder and when he gets to the top the onos just steps up instantly and kills him like a giant creature would in real life ( i used to hang out with dinosaurs in high school). Basically quit making onos climb ladders. It just silly. Fades don't have this problem, they blink, gorge, I dunno, make an animation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Been said before. I <i>still </i>agree that <b>onos</b> + <b>climbing ladders</b> = <b>stupid</b>
<!--quoteo(post=1676508:date=Apr 21 2008, 11:06 PM:name=Lt_Hendrickson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lt_Hendrickson @ Apr 21 2008, 11:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676508"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-More ladder stuff, marines actually have a climb animation rather than float on ladders and can only shoot when they stop. You can't climb ladders with one hand. I see more and more reasons to do away with ladders altogether.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Part of the blame is with lazy mappers who make ladders accessible to an onos. (i.e.: compare ns_mineshaft to practically any NS siege map with ladders; the onos can't fit into the crawlspaces on ns_mineshaft)
<!--quoteo(post=1676508:date=Apr 21 2008, 11:06 PM:name=Lt_Hendrickson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lt_Hendrickson @ Apr 21 2008, 11:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676508"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-minimun one second to swicth weopons. In addition to that it takes time in real life to put away your other weopon and draw your pistol out, it takes literally 0 seconds in ns basically continueing the pistol stream. 1 second might be too long but to get the idea play a battlefield game and see what a difference in gameplay hesitating to swith weopons can cause. It would give a skulk a tiny window to strike.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Suggested before again, but yes we could really do with some better animations. The panic-time between weapons being switched in the middle of a fight is actually one of the things that makes games like GRAW fun to play in multiplayer on the PC.
Well... in that game it also depends on your fatigue level and the weight of the weapons being switched. For example, when you are rested and quietly sneaking up some stair and switch to your pistol with a mass of 2Kg versus after sprinting 200m and are lugging up a heavy M99 sniper rifle with a mass of 11Kg.
<!--quoteo(post=1676508:date=Apr 21 2008, 11:06 PM:name=Lt_Hendrickson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lt_Hendrickson @ Apr 21 2008, 11:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676508"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-pistols shoot to fast and hurt to much, either lower damage or slow fire rate down. There is something very wrong with a game where good players will walk around with their pistol out instead of machine gun as a norm. I would prefer keep the damage and lower fire rate and accuracy. There is something wrong with a sniper pistol anyways. Put a zoom in function on the rifle instead and allow more accurate firing while zoomed. The devs seamed to thing that it wouldnt fit in a game like ns but it fits PERFECTLY in a game like ns because it blindsides the player zooming in.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's been asked for multiple times in the NS I&S that the sniper pistol should die. (don't think it's in this forum yet)
The delay between +attack actions was increased, but the problem wasn't the rate of fire as much as the perfect accuracy no matter what.
on a ladder? Perfect shot.
doing a mid-air pirouette? Perfect shot.
skulk biting your arse? Perfect shot.
1 hp and bleeding profusely? Perfect shot.
I think we can all agree that the sniper pistol should be forgotten past when NS2 is release. You only like it if your on marines getting to pistol-snipe skulks. (well if you enjoy being a rager that is)
<!--quoteo(post=1676508:date=Apr 21 2008, 11:06 PM:name=Lt_Hendrickson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lt_Hendrickson @ Apr 21 2008, 11:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676508"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-the knife. Someone needs to explain to my why the knife does more damage than futuristic bullets while waviing it like its floppy. I'm all for the knife being super strong, but I would say SEVERLY lower attack rate and animate to be more of a hard stab motion rather than floppy flop motion. Its a knife, not a light saber. It requires physical force to drive the blade though an enemy. It would require a bit more skill to time a stab, but still be rather effective and less slash and prey.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Meh. Make better animations. And slow down the attack rate. (I'm viciously slashing something, not cutting up lettuce)
Actually... Who made the knife animations for the default model anyways? I need to show him how you actually kill something with a combat knife.
<!--quoteo(post=1676508:date=Apr 21 2008, 11:06 PM:name=Lt_Hendrickson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lt_Hendrickson @ Apr 21 2008, 11:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676508"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-skulks run on walls and upsidedown. Their view should reflect this. Im kidding, we all know why thats a bad idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, Descent was my first FPS game. I could handle it easily. *shrug*
And like that guy said. Ladders are actually fairly rare in real life out side maintanence or it could be cause I live in Califonia where the ladder to lawsuit ratio is 1 to 1 because people like to blame other people and are clumsy and dumb.
With regard to the most maps arn't very believable, I'm actually making a map thats very beleivable in setup <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />. Except I can't really finish it till game is closer to finish, but it has pipes and vents and water supplies and rooms layed out in a very believable fashion. Its a an underground plant biology reseach lab.
I could see making a general rule for map makers such as "any area that is accessable by ladder, must also be accessable by another route, that way an ONOS could get there by going a different way. Most maps that use ladders only use them to connect areas that are on different levels/heights. It's just that sometimes there are maps which have areas where you MUST use a ladder to get into an area. And maybe it's not a bad thing. There are after all skulks, gorges, lerks, fades, chambers.... *cough* Other means of transporting death to marines.
Also just a mention, would id be counter to an enjoyable game if yu were simply to have smaller areas that an ONOS couldn't reach making it neccesary for him to use his teamwork skills (i.e. asking for backup/help) to get into tighter spaces?
Yeah, but some will continue to make the 30-minute-map-o-crap anyways. The best way to do this is for multiple mappers who are known for making well designed maps start practicing this and preaching it in FAQs. (and then get more server admins and custom content sites to delete crappy maps off the server HDD)
Make Reload time for a grenade launcher faster, like that in TF2.
Stop Onos from Climbing ladders.
Allow marines to knife out from a onos.
If you disregard the knife thing, then allow marines to un-pin a grenade so the onos dies with the marine.
Fix the View on the Heavy by raising the height of the View.
Allow gorge to make silk webs that it can climb up upon.
Make the dynamic infestation slow down the speed of marines by movement and parasite them automatically.
Rather than freezing a marine from the Stampede of a onos, just make it slow them down dramatically.
Give the Heavies thier own unique weapons, like a chaingun or a flamethrower.
These are me suggestions to realism, please don't flame me like the last thread.
edit: in regards to the knife problem:
<!--quoteo(post=1677101:date=Apr 29 2008, 10:45 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Apr 29 2008, 10:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1677101"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Knives need to be large with a mono-molecular edge and a vibrational system.
Or at least tell us that they are so we can pretend that they are.
Is this the right thread?
(of course, no more balancing your knife on your finger tip I suppose..)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would
A) Be a scalpel (obsidian is used for this purpose because it does make mono-molecular edges, but it wears out fairly easily, which should be coded in as well)
B) No vibration system is required.
That would
A) Be a scalpel (obsidian is used for this purpose because it does make mono-molecular edges, but it wears out fairly easily, which should be coded in as well)
B) No vibration system is required.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your forgetting one thing, THIS COMPLETELY NEGATES AN ONOS' 2nd attack... Why not reduce the HMG clip to 80 bullets too?
albo.. a button bind to force him to stand on hindlegs for short time
Because unlike Nightcrawler you don't have infinite energy? Run low on energy near a HA with a shotgun = you die. There's so much uncertainty here, don't hate it 'till you try it!
Please don't confuse NS v3.2 values for res, energy use, blink warmup time, blink cast time, blink cooldown time, marines weapon damage with those for NS2 which do not even exist yet.