NS2 score board update?
naggy
Join Date: 2005-03-22 Member: 46068Members
Join Date: 2005-03-22 Member: 46068Members
Recently theres been a few threads about skill balance and other random crap that <i>cannot</i> actually be fixed, so I'm just throwing this out there due to the fact that it seems more relevant than half the stuff already discussed/posted and could probably solve the notorious 'skill difference' gap problem.
(Yes, this most likely has been suggested before.)
<!--sizeo:7--><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->remove kills from the score board ranking<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
NS <b>is</b> an RTS/FPS hybrid after all, and the ultimate goal of the game isn't to kill the enemy's units but to kill their structures. If this were to be implemented, people wouldn't focus solely on their 'leet K:D ratio' and put more on actual teamwork (surprisingly, but you can't stop everyone).
If something similar to (/wrist) TF2 was implemented, surely the game would become a lot 'noob friendlier' due to the fact that your score determines how high you are ranked on the scoreboard (kills are still there but hidden to other players). This way players are encouraged to do positive actions for their team as apposed to camping or ignoring commanders orders, etc. Things like kill assists (to an extent) and points for healing/welding would greatly promote teamwork throughout even the biggest of skill differences due to the fact that even<i> if</i> a player isn't great at shooting enemy players or breaking through the front line they can excel at keeping their team alive and well (in a sense).
And just so you know I'm not saying that NS2 should become a TF2 clone. I hate TF2, but it's got a lot of neat features which NS2 could borrow to become an even greater game.
* For those that don't know what the TF2 score board looks like..
<img src="http://www.scalari.net/wp-content/tf2score.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Reinforcement ftw.
(Yes, this most likely has been suggested before.)
<!--sizeo:7--><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->remove kills from the score board ranking<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
NS <b>is</b> an RTS/FPS hybrid after all, and the ultimate goal of the game isn't to kill the enemy's units but to kill their structures. If this were to be implemented, people wouldn't focus solely on their 'leet K:D ratio' and put more on actual teamwork (surprisingly, but you can't stop everyone).
If something similar to (/wrist) TF2 was implemented, surely the game would become a lot 'noob friendlier' due to the fact that your score determines how high you are ranked on the scoreboard (kills are still there but hidden to other players). This way players are encouraged to do positive actions for their team as apposed to camping or ignoring commanders orders, etc. Things like kill assists (to an extent) and points for healing/welding would greatly promote teamwork throughout even the biggest of skill differences due to the fact that even<i> if</i> a player isn't great at shooting enemy players or breaking through the front line they can excel at keeping their team alive and well (in a sense).
And just so you know I'm not saying that NS2 should become a TF2 clone. I hate TF2, but it's got a lot of neat features which NS2 could borrow to become an even greater game.
* For those that don't know what the TF2 score board looks like..
<img src="http://www.scalari.net/wp-content/tf2score.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Reinforcement ftw.
Comments
How are commanders to know who to send where if they cannot tell who is more effective at kiling or not?
Most players I encounter look at a K:D ratio as a challenge, and any challenge leads to the path of self-improvement, which spurns discussion of how one improves.
If some people feel insecure about their score, they simply need not look at it. I don't know why you have to punish other players that ENJOY looking at it.
Given NS2's emphasis on teamplay, I don't see how removing a scoreboard is going to encourage teamplay when the game plans to benefit those who choose to use teamplay.
The problem is the lack of assist points. You can do the most damage to a fade or structure and get nothing if someone else deals the killing blow.
Yeah, <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=103908" target="_blank">this one</a>. I don't think it would really make much of a difference, and I'd rather have that information easily available to comms.
There is no overall team effort in CS:S.
How are commanders to know who to send where if they cannot tell who is more effective at kiling or not?
Most players I encounter look at a K:D ratio as a challenge, and any challenge leads to the path of self-improvement, which spurns discussion of how one improves.
If some people feel insecure about their score, they simply need not look at it. I don't know why you have to punish other players that ENJOY looking at it.
Given NS2's emphasis on teamplay, I don't see how removing a scoreboard is going to encourage teamplay when the game plans to benefit those who choose to use teamplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1675232:date=Apr 6 2008, 09:20 PM:name=aeroripper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aeroripper @ Apr 6 2008, 09:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1675232"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like having the K:D ratio, it lets me know who to hand the JP\hmg out to.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1675254:date=Apr 7 2008, 11:39 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Apr 7 2008, 11:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1675254"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=103908" target="_blank">this one</a>. I don't think it would really make much of a difference, and I'd rather have that information easily available to comms.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm.. Well, maybe commanders could view players K:D ratio but other cannot? Or maybe even keep kills on the scoreboard but make the players score determine where they are on the team ranking (which was somewhat what i meant in the OP -kills)? I'm not saying to punish people who like seeing their K:D ratio, It's just that when people see an enemy player with a 62:1 K:D ratio they kinda lose faith in everything they have which results in the team doing worse overall.
<!--quoteo(post=1675271:date=Apr 7 2008, 01:07 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ Apr 7 2008, 01:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1675271"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I somewhat doubt that removing K:D improves teamwork. The fraghunters won't see their frags, but that doesn't make them teamworkers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The player would still see their own number of kills/deaths at the bottom of the screen, it's just that the information isn't public. Reguarding the frag wh0res, i think that by removing kills from the scoreboard or making score higher priority than kills in ranking would effectively encourage teamwork because doing things for the team reaps more bang for your buck. Killing enemy units would also increase the score of a player, but it wouldn't be as worthwhile as destroying say RT's or a few DC's. The only reason people strive to do nothing but kill is because it puts them on the top of the scoreboard, ultimately making them 'better' and causing them to win the round. Theoretically, by making score higher priority they would kinda lean towards getting higher scores to be seen as the better player don't ya think?
The only thing is that if someone farms a rather good K:D ratio and their team loses, doesn't that make everything they did during that 20-40mins a waste of time/effort? I used to be somewhat of an 'elitist' player when it came to K:D and if my team lost when I was had a good K:D ratio of say 89-2 (usually if I slipped up and died whilst carrying the team) I would feel somewhat pissed off despite the fact that my score was out of the norm. If score was put ahead, people would somewhat lose the tendency to kill wh0re (which has nothing to do with the actual goal of the game, although its fun to do) and would actually strive to do what is needed to win the round.
Not sure if this would apply to everyone, but it would sure make me think twice about just killing to win..
To address Firewater's (and others') concerns.. Alternatively you could have ONLY the commander able to see players' kills and deaths. It wouldn't be detrimental to the idea. (gah. beaten to it by naggy already.)
And if RFK stays in then allow a grouped 'kills' scoreboard for the TEAM but not individuals.
"Most players I encounter look at a K:D ratio as a challenge, and any challenge leads to the path of self-improvement, which spurns discussion of how one improves."
Yeah, but you can still have the K:D and other stats PRIVATE as in TF2. (beaten again..)
Also, I dislike the notion that you should be encouraged to build and weld more than you want to kill, when you can't really quantify that as having more 'teamwork' (just helping your team, but killing the other team helps your team too); and especially when NS <b>is</b> a game about killing. Taking a cue from naggy's idea, we need to place more emphasis on killing STRUCTURES rather than players.
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A different idea.. how about you group kills and kill assists as 'kill points'?
I've always thought comments like this about NS2 were a little odd, it assumes the commander is dropping the equipment, like in NS1, but didn't UW say they were going towards marines acquiring their equipment load out themselves for NS2?
To address Firewater's (and others') concerns.. Alternatively you could have ONLY the commander able to see players' kills and deaths. It wouldn't be detrimental to the idea. (gah. beaten to it by naggy already.)
And if RFK stays in then allow a grouped 'kills' scoreboard for the TEAM but not individuals.
"Most players I encounter look at a K:D ratio as a challenge, and any challenge leads to the path of self-improvement, which spurns discussion of how one improves."
Yeah, but you can still have the K:D and other stats PRIVATE as in TF2. (beaten again..)
Also, I dislike the notion that you should be encouraged to build and weld more than you want to kill, when you can't really quantify that as having more 'teamwork' (just helping your team, but killing the other team helps your team too); and especially when NS <b>is</b> a game about killing. Taking a cue from naggy's idea, we need to place more emphasis on killing STRUCTURES rather than players.
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A different idea.. how about you group kills and kill assists as 'kill points'?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alternatively, couldn't there be a client side option that turns off the scoreboard for those who do not want to see it? Why should someone who enjoys playing as a team and seeing their scoreboard stats (and want to see others as well) suffer because a few players can't handle a scoreboard?
Which makes me think the idea shouldn't be implemented at all.
Quick give the shotgun to the guy who welds the entire game...
You also realize that it is slightly idiotic as well right? I mean the notion of scoreboard removal has already been tried, and there was no difference between frag whoring. "Beaten Again" indeed <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
The whole point is flawed because it only addresses a single etiology of frag whoring: The scoreboard, where as there are multiple explanations of frag whoring (the thrill of killing, the challenge of trying to get as many consistent kills as possible, etc....)
<img src="http://www.live2learntoys.co.uk/ABACUS.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
The idea is analogous to Sadam's use of his <a href="http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/" target="_blank">Minister of Information</a> at the start of the latest Iraq war.
<!--quoteo(post=1675545:date=Apr 10 2008, 01:56 PM:name=Emanon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Emanon @ Apr 10 2008, 01:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1675545"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This reminds me of parents who removed score keeping from kids sports and believe everyone wins but in the long run the kids are keeping score the entire time in their heads.
Quick give the shotgun to the guy who welds the entire game...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I said keep the kill / death ratio on <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Did you just completely miss the use of literary hyperbole? Or are you just playing along? Obviously you're not going to use an abacus - there are a thousand ways to accomplish the same thing.
People like looking at the K:D ratio to see where they stand - it's not like only the elitists do it, it's something that always happens in society. We like to know how our work compares to that of others. Just because some misinterpret it as a reason to cry or somebody goes and spawncamps just to get high scores (or various other minor reasons), doesn't mean that you should disable an important tool. That pubgod doesn't necessarily care that his team loses - for all you know, it may be sufficient for him to blame his team for being bad. But turning off the scoreboard isn't going to change what he's doing. It just covers the eyes of everybody else that would actually find some use from the scoreboard.
Essentially, this is about changing the way you score or keep score in the game. So they can see where they stand in relation to others, using the score.
Also, Emanon: for the sixth time (or was it seventh? but hey, who's counting?) the commander can still see someone's K:D in order to choose who to hand out equipment to.
Essentially, this is about changing the way you score or keep score in the game. So they can see where they stand in relation to others, using the score.
Also, Emanon: for the sixth time (or was it seventh? but hey, who's counting?) the commander can still see someone's K:D in order to choose who to hand out equipment to.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
AGAIN, the NS team already did this in earlier versions, and there were still frag ######s on the marines. The scoreboard only showed points, not K:D, it was a feature added in a LATER version of NS.
Changing the scoreboard will not minimize frag whoring. People frag ###### for a variety of reasons, scoreboard is just one of them.
like I suggested earlier, if people are insecure about some numbers being shown, they should have the option client-side. For the majority of people that aren't bothered by the scoreboard, this would just be frustrating.
Leave it to the precious few, to ruin it for the insignificant most.
But if you really can't live without seeing others' kills and deaths - and the majority of players also feel the same way as you; then sure I agree, make it an option - <b>default</b> to off, and make it a client-side option to turn it on or leave it off.